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Star Trek TNG: 317-318 (Patreon)

Published:
2025-12-31 13:00:11
Edited:
2026-01-23 00:46:28
Imported:
2025-12
Tags:

Content

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Sins of the Fathers, Alliegance

Files

Comments

Michael Bauer

Wishing you all an early happy new year 🎉🥳 Live long and prosper 🖖

Marcus Hicks

Happy New Year, Simone and George. I very much look forward to seeing you both continue your TNG journey into 2026!

Polecat21

looks like both sync and no-sync versions are loaded to the sync page...

Cinebinge

hi John, could you tell me which is not on the site? which version you are looking for, and if you have any filters active?

Fedora The Explorar

Oh I completely disagree. Klingon's sense of honor is not warrior specific at all. If you look at the way Klingons talk to each other they constantly challenge each other and threaten them over being not honorable but if you stand your ground and stand with conviction that what you're doing like studying botany or sewing clothes is honor to you then a true Klingon will respect you for that. The Klingon honor system is just about conviction to your true self, it is not about dying in battle. That's said because that's what you must stand on if you choose to be a warrior. I always completely disagreed that Klingon is even a warrior first culture, I don't think it is.

Paul McBryde

Hey Simone, George, background and foreground cats, thanks for all the Trekking in 2025. LLAP!

Mike W

Ah, the Lego enterprise looks good but it's sooo expensive. Will that stop me from getting it? Probably not 😃

GAB

I believe Klingons who are not warrior caste is a minor element in other Star Trek shows, but in my opinion their society is never fully fleshed out to explain how they could develop technologically. One way, I suppose, is that constant conflict would produce an arms race, scientists and engineers could be a lower or different caste, and the Klingons could just steal or buy the tech. I believe the original intent was that they were a Spartan-like warrior race who used numerous slaves - helots - to do the boring, mundane stuff. That might have been interesting as those helots could have revolted as happened a couple of times in ancient Sparta. Like many sci-fi shows, Star Trek does suffer somewhat from the trope of alien societies that are monocultures.

Brian Smith

i just finished building the lego enterprise

Max

I don't want to spoil anything by giving details, but I remember at least one ENT episode in which we learn more about the non-warrior part of Klingon culture and the role it played in the development of the Klingon species.

GAB

Patrick Stewart was a well known theatre and TV actor in the UK from the 60s to the 80s. I remember him well from appearances as Lenin in Fall of Eagles, Sejanus in I, Claudius,, Karla in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy and Smiley's People, Claudius in a BBC production of Hamlet and even in an episode of Sir Kenneth Clark's Civilisation documentary series as Horatio from Hamlet. A memorable early movie appearance was as the father of Guinivere, Leodegrance, in Excalibur (1981) - like most John Boorman movies, well worth watching in my opinion. My recollection is that Patrick Stewart first came to the attention of Gene Roddenberry from his performance as Gurney Halleck in David Lynch's Dune - probably not as Dr Armstrong in Tobe Hooper's Lifeforce from a year later.

ChiefKC

If you want to see Patrrick Stewart from the 80s, check out John Boorman's Excalibur (1981). Even back then he had no hair.

Lex

I look forward to Star Trek day. 😊

Data Cable

That opening shot of Sins of the Father (the Enterprise and Bird of Prey) is one of the very few created from scratch for the HD re-master, because they couldn't locate all of the original film elements to digitize and composite.

PIG

It's a staple of my week :)

PIG

Red Letter Media brought up the inconsistencies of Klingons being able to get to the level of sophistication as star travel with their warrior based culture. How can you even perform science under this process? I kinda like the idea George raised up that perhaps scientists are slaves. It would actually explain away some things. EDIT: Oh shit. Or scientists are all women. Thinking back I don't remember Klingon male scientists, they're always female in this show, from here on out actually. George is on point yet again I bet :)

Young Blood Priest

I always wondered how the Klingons got off the ground too. But on Star Trek Enterprise they reveal the Klingons have a caste system with the warrior caste at the top.

Life in the cave of Garanoga

In my Opinion TNG doesn't work without Sir Partick. It would have been a very different show. That being said, casting Frakes was important. He was the typical look you would expect from the Captain at the time so they could use him to satisfy those tropes and storylines necessary for a syndication show like this in the late 80's to be successful. And having a guy like Frakes who understood his role and had a working knowledge of directing went a long way for the show's appeal. Plus him and Stewart have off the charts chemistry lol. Any show like this needs good supporting cast but TNG struck Gold with Stewart and the cast chemistry. The show is legendary for being one of the only shows where the entire cast became very close friends. When you do finish TNG definitely go watch some of their cons, behind the scenes, and interviews, pure fucking gold.

dlpheonix

In regards to research and breakthroughs. Confrontations and war especially are the biggest drivers. In the pursuit of weapons both chemical and physical research on subjects would be needed both live and dead. It would be a gruesome path to the knowledge but probably far faster in its acquisition. The only difference then is the application. Saving lives to allow one to battle more is preferable if the injuries were obtained honorably making them heroes. Similarly pain killers probably dont exist outside of using them as weapons to knock people unconscious Etc. Etc. You can think of it as the japanese in the late 1800s all way to ww2.. The society made huge progressions while maintaining a "warrior" code.

Daniel Lanctot

Re: Klingon “scientists” For the longest time, it bothered me too: How could a civilization achieve warp drive space travel if being a a scientist means not being a warrior with honor. But, beyond the “It’s the women/elderly who did those jobs” explanation (which is valid), there is a better one: Think of it from a DnD MULTI-CLASS character point of view: All Klingons are like child soldiers, raised to be “Fighter” class, or “Barbarian”, “Ranger”, etc. (Even the girls are trained that way, even if not as extensively as the males since Klingons are highly patriarchal). But at some point, there is a need for engineers on ships, medics to prevent plagues, Astro-physicists for navigation, etc. and so each “Klingon Warrior” takes on a “side job”, a multi-class in one of those and other fields of research. So while all Klingons are warriors first and foremost, they also have specialities that serve the Empire and society to progress. After all, even in ancient times, they would have needed blacksmiths to design better weapons (A simple fighter does not train on how to MAKE a sword; only how to wield it!). So there would not have been Klingons who would have “chosen a life of academia”, not in the same sense as we do. But rather, you would have had warriors who could have chosen to become part time scribes who would have written down the stories of victories (Theirs and others) so that other Klingons might be inspired by them and be shown the path to victory; and that in itself could still be viewed as “Honourable” for a multi-class “Warrior-Bard”, in the same way as a multi-class “Warrior-Cleric/Healer” or “Warrior-Farmer”, etc. would have been respected as helping the “warrior-community” win battles and wars over those societies (Klingon or alien) who did not have the necessary support for their troops (Armies need supply chains, logistical tracking, weapons and ammo replenishment, etc. and they can’t have any of those if everyone is on the frontline, fighting!)

Mike W

I think it's due out at the end of January here in the UK. My finances will have recovered from Christmas by then.

Will Sofer

Without spoiling anything for the future, I will say that you’re mistaken; there are definitely male Klingon characters in Star Trek who are scientists.

TomGas2025

It established that the Klingons were once enslaved by a race they called the Hurgh. I believe that they learned and revers engineered some od the enslavers technology...and the warrior mentality can be applied to science and medicine and so on...knowing an enemy is at the gate it is important to have the best weapons, engines etc...but the klingons did not invent the Cloaking Device...they got it from the romulans in a brief alliance they had.

David N

If I recall correctly, there are various examples of non warrior klingons throughout the franchise. They have the same mindset that any warrior caste klingon would, just applied to their chosen field. They are often looked down upon by the warriors though and that tends to make them either meek or more agressive towards their colleages. It is also hinted in later series that the trend towards warriors above all is a more recent development (possibly due to the numerous wars with the federation).

Chris Graham

Great episodes! Picard's line of "You may test that assumption at your convenience" is the most polite and British way of saying "F*** around and find out" lol, Happy New Year Simone, George and all

Thomas Yanez

Wait, Patrick Stewart was in "Lifeforce"? There were other actors in that movie? I only remember one... or two...

PIG

Thank you Will. Damn, I'll look out for that for now on.

Robert Cooper

The best ones don't really show up until DS9, though. You get to see Klingon scientists and lawyers and such a fair bit there.

Robert Cooper

These are two episodes I remember fondly, but they aren't either particularly good. The Klingon one is fine, and has some good lines (burned replicated bird meat comes out every Thanksgiving), but it is best for what it sets up. This is really the door to the whole Klingon thing now. The other is a fine standalone episode with some fun moments, but it does fail at being Trekkish. To have alien of the week experimenting with authority, it has almost nothing to say about authority. It's just an escape room, and the focus of the episode is on having fun with Picard being weird. I get the feeling the script started in a different place but wasn't working so the pivoted right at production time.

StonyD

Happy New Year!

Jomero

Not all Klingons are portrayed by black actors, in fact we see several in this episode who are played by white actors (K'mpec, Duras, etc.) But all the white actors do have their skin darkened a bit for the role. But, Romulan actors also go through a similar process to make their skin have tiny bit of greenish/yellowish hue.

funky weapon

man, one of my earliest memories is seeing the wrinkly testicle-face man when I was something like five years old. I vividly remember trying to comprehend what the hell was going on in this show and just not getting any of it. Also, it can't be understated just how gorgeous this show is from season 3 onward. and the HD restoration is a real beauty.

John

Thanks, I really enjoy Sins of the Father. I think sometimes we can be limited in our concepts of honor. It could be argued that the most honorable act in this episode was Worf's decision to accept discommendation. Honor can be confused with pride; there are elements of pride, but also sacrifice, which may answer your question, George. As others have stated, other non-warrior members of Klingon society may take pride in their honor and seek honor. Still, everyone recognizes that sacrifice is required at all levels (Fighting to the last man, following orders that would lead to your death). In this episode, I think they highlight the difference between an aspirational goal for society (Everyone should seek to act honorably) and the reality i.e. we will sacrifice someone else to keep our power.

Shadows of Archonia

There are Klingon scientists, lawyers, etc. We just don't see them much, presumably because there's no reason for them to go deal with Starfleet personnel.

ImpishMisconception

I have questions for Alliegance, I have seen this show and this episode many times, Alliegance is one of my top favorite episodes... However, I have questions and I am hoping someone will have answers... I am Autistic and I can't read people very well, so the date night scene with Beverly and Picard is confusing to me when she says that if she didn't know any better, she would think he was playing games with her... First off, what does she mean by playing games? Also, what actions of his are making her think he is playing games with her? ....... The scene at the end of this episode is also confusing for me, as Beverly gives Picard a look. I know that look is supposed to mean something but I don't know what it means. What does the look that Beverly gives Picard mean?

Shadows of Archonia

Also, right in this episode we see klingon politicians. But of course, they all come from military backgrounds are cloaking their politics in warrior language (just like many irl politicians).

PG Modehouse

Hey all, the site appears to be inaccessible, regardless of browser, whether on mobile or PC. Is anyone else experiencing this, or is it a local issue for me?

Cory Garron

Charge up your Klingon painsticks, everyone!

p0sthum4n

Working fine for me.

Cory Garron

A staple of mine as well. Will George like this episode? Will Simone remember it?

p0sthum4n

George: No, not every Klingon on TNG (and DS9, later) is played by a black actor. In fact, most Klingons with speaking roles, besides Worf and Kurn, are played by white guys. The two klingon fugitives from season one, as well as the commander who demands they be turned over, were also white. One of them played an admiral on Star Trek Enterprise.

Cory Garron

I'd thought that's how Klingons acquired their disruptors as well? From the Romulans?

p0sthum4n

I think that within the context of the klingons, their original concept of honor has probably been warped over multiple generations as the "warrior ethos" took over klingon society, and has come to mean something more akin to "face" in China — honor is a component of face, but so is dignity, prestige, reputation, and so on (this is my reductive white guy description which is obviously lacking nuance, but for the sake of the discussion I think it's enough). It's no longer just about the pure honorability of a klingon's actions but how their actions are perceived within the Empire and the reputation they earn through it. Pure, unadulterated honor is fully internal. Klingon "honor" is practically a social currency. Worf is more or less the only klingon we ever meet who truly treats honor as a personal moral philosophy, and that's because he has an idealized view of klingon culture and society due to growing up outside it. Martok proves similar in the end as well. Everyone else is essentially using the word "honor" as a synonym for "reputation".

p0sthum4n

Don't forget the Klingon restauranteur with his space accordion.

p0sthum4n

But yes I really love the klingon lawyer ("advocate") in DS9 who describes himself as no less a warrior, but the court room is his battlefield, presenting the evidence and persuading the jury/judge/panel is his battle.

p0sthum4n

All of the stuff about Klingons having reverse engineered Hur'q technology is non-canon. More or less the only canon info about the Hur'q is whatever's said on-screen in the DS9 episode "The Sword of Kahless".

TomGas2025

Which makes it canon again...

TomGas2025

In turn the Romulans got the warp drive from the klingons with some D7 Cruisers...

Alexander Brown

He was bald long before the 80's; he says he lost his hair around 18 years of age.

Alexander Brown

Happy New Year! Accepting the reality of Klingons as an advanced spacefaring culture requires two things. 1. Assuming the existence of non-warriors in the society, likely in a caste system either formally or informally stratified. Warriors are in charge, and all discovery is to feed the glory and honour of the Klingon Empire. 2. Accepting that nearly as many scientific and social developments in real Earth history have been born of competition, pride and large-scale conflict as the pursuit of science as its own goal.

GAB

Yup, one might well have been distracted by Mathilda May.

Ben Schwartz

The whole point of this episode is to show that Worf is more of and a better Klingon than those on the Klingon High Council, etc. The Klingons are hypocrites, and this is demonstrated time and time again. Worf sticks to his Klingon code more than any other Klingon we see.

Ben Schwartz

I think even in this episode Duras(?) was played by a white guy. And certainly the fat Klingon in charge of the high council also played by a white dude.

Ben Schwartz

Seems to be working fine for me.

p0sthum4n

Yeah I'm pretty sure most of it not the entire council are white dudes

Ben Schwartz

"Playing games" - Beverly is not quite sure what Jean-Luc's motivations are here. She made it clear that she liked their friendship/relationship as it is and wasn't big on the idea of taking things further (even though there's obviously something there, and they're both attracted to each other)... Jean-Luc ignored that and continued to put his moves on her. She's confused, she's not quite sure where all this is coming from, because he is NEVER this forward and this romantic with her, even with the unspoken 'thing' they have with each other. Basically, it was all out of character for Jean-Luc and it was throwing Beverly off... even though she was still intrigued and obviously attracted to him. But then he throws her out and ends the date. As for Beverly's look to the real Picard at the end of the episode, she is flirting with him... almost in a joke-teasing way, because while it was only the fake Picard that made those moves on her, she can sorta deduce from this that the real Picard is attracted to her. But of course, he has no idea what has transpired between her and Fake Picard while he was gone, so he's obviously mystified by the look she gives him... so it's just a humorous little scene to end the episode. Like Red said above, it's sort've a "if you only knew..." look.

G P

Klingon episodes are always bangers

James W.

I always assumed civilian Klingons weren't as wrapped up in the whole warrior lifestyle. The Klingons are also based as much on Samurai as they are Vikings or Mongols, so there is the idea, especially since I think every warrior we have met is from a noble house, that they also pursue arts and sciences so they can be better warriors. Poetry and music to round out the warrior.

James W.

Qo'nos is the name of the capital city and the planet. In reality they hadn't codified the name of the home world at the time this episode aired. They abandoned the name Kling for the homeworld because it sounded dumb and called it Kronos in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. Later they changed it from Kronos to Qo'Nos to adhere to the Klingon language they had created.

PG Modehouse

Looks like an issue with my ISP, Xfinity. Issue persists regardless of PC/Mobile on my home wifi, but no issues connecting to the page over mobile 5g networks. Ugh, I'll have to open a chat with Xfinity. hooray.

JakeyShakeyBakeyBoy

Haha will say it’s very nice to hear that the CB Trek logo in the Songs video is a happy thing as time has gone by for Simone ☺️ It was one my fave things I’ve worked on in my production life for a good while… That said “Sins of The Father” is probably one of this guy’s most rewatched episodes over the years - not necessarily a top 10 or anything but just a really enjoyable foray into the Klingon High Council and that whole world that has a mix of great intrigue, conflict and growth for Mr. Worf. Of course Tony Todd is an always welcome sight to see and indeed very sorely missed 😔

Ben Stevens

Happy new year nerds! 🖖🏻

Angzarr

Wait, don't all LEGO spaceships with saucers technically have separable saucer sections?

Angzarr

1:26:49 Ah, I see George has played knifey-spooney before.

MacGuffinStuff

Happy New Year first. Love youz. Couple notes. I said "I love Tony Todd," just two seconds before Simone did. One thing I really loved him for was as Ben in the Night Of The Living Dead '90 remake, directed by Tom Savini aka Sex Machine. That version I'm sorry it's my preference, Patty Tallman, who is on some Star Trek episodes as I think both an actor and she was also a stunt woman, is the Better Barbara, just my opinion. But no George, "Today is a good day to die." Is not from this, it's a Native American thing, I think Crazy Horse said it, or is credited with saying it (looked it up real quick, Crazy Horse is popularly known to have said, although it may have also been a Lakota warrior saying in general, but the origins are unclear, I'd guess a lot of warrior cultures had similar sayings, Samurai, etc.). Also, yeah I can see Sir Patrick being an attractive man, but you haven't even seen him in.... SPOILER ALERT! (is it???) EXCALIBUR (1981) Man he's in armor riding a horse and kicking ass. Not for long enough, he just wasn't as big of a role as I would've loved, but some of the other knights will blow your mind, the cast is stacked.

Nate Gavin

Happy New Year to my fave Canadians and the cinebinge community! Ok I’m cheating here, so pls don’t view the following link if you don’t want to. But it might tease you both enough to want to put it at the next poll. Or maybe just watch the first 50 secs. Won’t spoil the movie at all…. https://youtu.be/vrVDJcw40BU?si=Sr0zI2vYVjQeVWj4 Whoops forgot to mention movie title is “Sphere” And don’t peek at the poster.

DonkyDave

Simone unable to contain her overwhelming attraction and love for Patrick Stewart was just hilarious

Hasan Ahmad

I wish we go back to 3 treksodes instead of two

gfixler

It would have been fun if we (and the Federation) found out years later that "Klingon" was just the warrior class from a race with a different name, like "Klingonian", and it turned out a lot of the latter didn't much care for the former, and didn't travel the galaxy much.

PIG

Kinda like the Vulcans and romulens?

Joel

Not all Klingons are warriors, so for them, their honor is found in success in whatever field they find themselves drawn to.

p0sthum4n

You can clearly see all sorts of things viewers were never intended to see thanks to standard-def 80s/90s television in these remasters, like Gene Roddenberry's head on a bird body on a computer display in season one. Or some serious camel toe on that planet with one law.

Dan

Regarding older British Shakesperian actors playing slightly unlikely "actiony" leading men, there's another example that comes to mind: Edward Woodward in the original (1980s) Equalizer TV series.

JoeNotCharles

I like the interpretation that the Klingon fascination with "honour" is a cultural ideal that everyone knows the average Klingon doesn't actually live up to, but they all have to pay lip service to. They all need to performatively TALK about how they're the most honourable and the best warriors, but it doesn't affect their ACTIONS unless they can get an advantage out of it. (Like "rule of law" in our culture...) But Worf learned about his culture from reading Klingon philosophy books and watching movies, not actually living among Klingons, so he takes it seriously and all the other Klingons secretly think he's weirdly stuck up. He's the Klingon equivalent of a Bible-thumper.

JoeNotCharles

Another interpretation, that kind of fits better with what we see in this episode: Klingons are big on hierarchy. A huge part of Klingon "honour" is obeying your superiors. So if the leaders of the society say, "We need somebody to farm, and you're chosen," you might be angry that you don't get a chance to be a warrior, but disobeying would be the MOST dishonourable thing you can do. So if somebody gets up in your face about your job not having the warrior spirit, they're correct on the surface, but saying, "I was told to do this less-honourable job by the elders, and I'm obeying without question," is the ultimate comeback. Obedience is THE most important Klingon warrior virtue, even if the order you're following is "don't be a warrior".

JoeNotCharles

Apparently this is originally from asimovsideburns on tumblr. I think it fits well here: "Klingon therapist: the battle against mental illness cannot be won decisively. It is a long campaign against an enemy who never tires, whose forces swell to twice their size whenever you look away. Battle against a foe of such magnitude, who occupies your very mind... every moment you survive is a triumph against all odds. There is no more honorable combat."

JoeNotCharles

Dammit, THIS is the comment I should have put the Klingon Therapist meme after...

Ian Tellam

I think the backstory for the Klingons is more involved in a deep lore sense, although I am no expert, personally. I believe that while Klingon culture has always been a warrior culture, it's only over the last century or so (in TNG terms) that war and violence has become so fetishised within their society. As Sins of the Father suggests, there's often quite a bit of hypocrisy and posturing involved with this as well, with 'honour' being wielded as a political weapon and a way to consolidate power. While Klingons are well known for stealing other societies' technological innovations as much as they innovate themselves, I think there's also a general sense of Klingon society being in a moment of cultural decline being suggested in episodes such as this - whereas in the past they were perhaps more broad minded as a society, still warriors but in a less blinkered and limited manner. They like exploring this with Worf, who's kind of a Klingon cultural idealist, who often feels disappointed with the Klingons he encounters along the way. Worf's version of a Klingon, which is much more disciplined and honourable I don't think is just a result of him being somewhat humanised, I think it's also closer to the original Klingon philosophical outlook which is why other Klingons sometimes seem to think of him as naive or old-fashioned. I think this is a deliberate attempt to draw parallels with actual world cultures, historical or contemporary, which linger on a supposed past glorious age and similarly fetishise martial aspects of culture and extreme traditionalism to prop up the decline in their cultural significance, and mask underlying nepotism and corruption.

Joe Concepts

Please note one of the dumbest lines on TNG, when Picard mentions the Klingon "Imperial Empire."

Guts

In Klingon culture not doing the space thing is a great insult D:

Guts

Just wanted to say: Simone is quite a lot louder than George most of the time: 5:10 as an example. I always feel like I have to enable my own compressor when watching you guys. This is not a new thing. Has been like this for some time.

Guts

If you don't want to know more about why Klingons are the way they are and if they always were then treat the following as a spoiler and stop reading: Klingons were not always so dominantly warlike iirc. There was a cultural shift after they were crushed by the Hur'q (had to look up their name again). After their attackers left the Klingons home world they swore "never again" and became a warrior culture. Klingon scientists spent centuries reverse-engineering the tech that the Hur'q left behind which uplifted their own civilization to the level of a warp-capable race with similar tech level to the Federation, at least in the area of warfare. After that they evolved mostly through conquest and further reverse-engineering, but there are scientists in the Klingon Empire, but they are seen as a means to an end rather than a path to glory. I think it is a strong possibility that they could fall behind the other dominant races if they do not adapt. I was going to say "kind of like the Imperium of Man and the Adeptus Mechanicus in Warhammer 40k", but that is a bit of a stretch 😅. Maybe the Krogan from Mass Effect are a closer fit. This is what I remember. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

WastedPo

While I do like "Allegiance," I really do dislike how Troi couldn't sense ANY deception in the fake Picard. It was just so lazy/negligent by the writers. I understand maybe they didn't want to break the episode before it had a chance to get going, but they could've easily skirted that by having Troi act leery around Picard, and try to warn the others. (Since they all eventually became suspicious of Picard anyway, this wouldn't have ruined the plot.)

Gwydify

The story goes that Gene Roddenberry absolutely hated the idea of Patrick Stewart being cast as the Captain of the Enterprise.

ImpishMisconception

Thank you both for your explnations, now it all makes sense to me and I understand it, yay!

Matt Blanchette

He originally wanted the father of the guy from "Suits".

Raymond DeGraw

Listening to the way you talk about Troi is funny, because you seem to not to understand that she is half-Betazoid. Troi has heightened sensitivity to emotions (empathy) but can't read minds like a full telepath.

Angela D. Mitchell

I agree. I also think that Frakes was underrated as an actor, had great chemistry with Stewart, Sirtis, and the rest of the cast, and he really seemed to be a generous scene partner -- he always let the other actor have their moments.

Angela D. Mitchell

George, Klingons have been portrayed by a mix of white actors and actors of color -- I feel like they've had a good balance overall. It was great to see Tony Todd here (love him -- love "Candyman" and I saw him onstage about 20 years ago). There have been many white actors portraying Klingons -- here, both K'mpec and Duras were portrayed by white actors (Charles Cooper and Patrick Massett), and back in Riker's visit to the other ship, Jeff Kober played the first mate there.