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Early update for October 30, 2025 (Patreon)

Published:
2025-10-29 03:55:02
Imported:
2026-06

Content

she can be taught, maybe

Files

Comments

MrShoggoth

I cannot believe we haven’t gotten more Asma before the last few months, she’s fucking great.

LupinThe8th

The dam finally burst on 18 years of repression, Asma, you ain't stopping the flood. It was this or a billion dicks.

Corronchilejano

Asmas behind both a real and a figurative counter.

ArdieBea

The interesting thing is going to be where precisely Joyce decides to apply this wisdom; cos I'm thinking she's got temptations waiting for her.

Omnithea

Well ok I don't like her.

Empress of Robots

Counterpoint: Asma maybe YOU should try kissing someone you really secretly want to...

Girlycore

Thinking like this is why we voted you Empress.

Fart Captor

That's her secret, Cap. She secretly wants to kiss EVERYONE

KittyKai

Joyce. Joyce no. Joyce no honey. Joyce NO

KittyKai

Also reddit is gonna have a FIELD DAY with this 😅

Sajuuk-Khar

Joyce: Please show me how to budget my influence my fandom on the main site is dying Asma: spend less on Thrillingly Illicit Sex Joyce: No

Fart Captor

I feel like sucking a billion dicks would be even more inappropriate at a protest against genocide, and yet more justifiable to put on the front page of the news paper

Elizabeth

I think this will be my last comment on here for awhile, I don’t think Joyce and Dotty did a bad, and I also don’t think Asma is entirely wrong about time and place. I can’t sit here and watch people attack either or both of them, and I feel like that’s going to happen a lot in the coming days and weeks, so moving on. This is a better comment section than the main site, but only after having blocked multiple people already, and I’m done. Will continue to subscribe, and I can get day aheads in my email or something without temptation to come here to comment

Astariel

Hell yeah, Joyce! Stand your ground!

Fart Captor

Post-nut clarity can be profound, yet it is fleeting 😔

Empress of Robots

No one voted for me, I self-appointed myself circa like SDCC circa 2018 I think? It was a fun joke—which feels more problematic in 2025. Meh. Whatevs. I'm keeping it. Empress gotta press (also pls notice the em dash i used a sentence ago)

KittyKai

Prooooobably for the best. Enjoy the comic on your comment hiatus!

DramaQueen

Yes, what is going on in that head and who is the target of her temptation. Is her passion reciprocated, has she already been pledged to some old man, how controlling is her family, what is up here.

DramaQueen

Joyce, yes, yes, yes!

DramaQueen

She’s interesting though.

Anna Phylaxis

Gonna be honest - it's not unusual for people to end up kissing or making out at a protest, appropriate or not. They are sites of heightened emotion, with all the possible consequences of that. This stuff mostly reads like you do not attend protests and do not have personal experience with protests, and consequentially, it seems clunky, awkward, and not fully fleshed or thought out.

Empress of Robots

WE CAN BLOCK PEOPLE ON HERE?!?!? I'm so tired of Joyce/Dorothy hate & nagging.

C

Neither is really wrong here. Asma's right that there's a time and a place (and that wasn't it, given what it did to the protest's media attention), but at the same time, Joyce shouldn't be shamed into hiding who she is (that's not Asma's point, of course, but given the home life she grew up in, it was a long term struggle to even figure this part of herself out).

Empress of Robots

I honestly cannot tell at the moment if Asma's comment is re: time/place, kissing generally, kissing girls, kissing girls with "Cop Energy," or All of the Above. I'll wait til tomorrow to parse it further though

Empress of Robots

(ALSO, I've enjoyed your comments so I will miss seeing you around here)

Logibear

Joyce is the dog from the "No Take. Only Throw" comic

Empress of Robots

When Joyce is right, Joyce right (i.e. not stopping fucking that Dorothy)

Fart Captor

I would expect making out at like, some kinda queer liberation demo, not so much at a protest against genocide Especially not when all the protesters were supposed to be leaving because the cops were about to get violent and had already started firing tear gas

GundamBradley

Genuinely wonder what Joyce even went to talk to Asma for if she was going to approach it like this.

DiDi-chan

Wow... it's for a completely different reasons but we're getting the conversation about the morality of Joyce choosing to make out with Dorothy. I guess I'll take it.

Jesse

Maybe I’m not following this well, but I can’t tell if she’s saying anti-genocide protests are a bad occasion to make out, or just being homophobic.

Railway Series Book Club

asma's right in the real world logic kinda way, while joyce is right in the "i had to stop my now-wife from committing suicide by cop" kinda way. in my opinion

Amós Batista

Hope this joke is a setup for tomorrow. Hope it won't be cringe, specially for Asma

Amós Batista

They will have to decide: to defend Joyce or Asma. It will be wild

GundamBradley

It is most likely the former, that doing it at the protest wound up centralizing the conversation around the moment.

Dmitri0240

Do we know for sure that that's not Asma's point, though? After Asma's reaction to seeing Alice, her having more in common with pre-epiphany Joyce than she'd prefer to admit isn't implausible.

C Bonesmith

I'm pretty sure she's saying that it's a really bad idea to make out at a protest, as it a.) takes attention off of the thing you're protesting and b.) is a direct risk to the personal safety of the people at the protest. There's a time and a place to make out with your girlfriend, and in the middle of a protest that is actively evacuating is not one of them. I think what Asma's pointing out here is that if you're going to do something that distracts you to the point where you can't flee tear gas, that thing is not protest-safe activity and if you can't control yourself, you need to find a way to prevent the behavior.

Dmitri0240

I feel like that ambiguity is intentional at this exact point in the conversation.

C

I got more the vibe that she might have had her own epiphany in the girl romance direction, so the exact opposite of that.

tifani

Joyce opening with ‘I would like to not apologize’ practically invited this reaction. It’s defensive framing disguised as honesty. Asma’s restraint here is impressive.

Waifu Purplebutt

Wonder what Asma, as a Muslim, thinks about gay people and/or sex-positivity, given the common views held by those of her faith on such matters.

tifani

Me too. She came at this immediately confrontational and now she’s immediately trying to justify the behavior they came to apologize for.

Dmitri0240

@Bonesmith I'm not sure panels 6 and 7 are a great fit for that reading. Whether it's a misdirect or a portent of things to come, I do think the "Asma is starting to sound generally conservative" reading is intentional.

tifani

Self control? Joyce does not know her and refuses to be introduced. This is I wanna eat the world after a life time of being starved of it behavior.

Astariel

Eh, so far she mostly seems like a wet blanket.

Dmitri0240

Having the epiphany that you have that attraction is not the same as having the epiphany that it's okay to act on it. It's possible she's giving Joyce a rehearsed speech she's given herself many times in the mirror.

Gray Proctor

Did we forget that Asma accused them of wanting her for a threesome in the last comic? Maybe she was serious, and maybe she secretly wants that more than anything.

tifani (edited)

Comment edits

2026-10-28 05:00 Adding to this was Joyce carrying this entitlement out of the protest and into her real life. It fully explains her behavior over the last day. She wanted to do what she wanted to do and she wanted to use a lack of impulse control as her excuse but she’s just frog and/or Toad eating all the cookies instead of just walking away from the temptation. Yeah Dorothy’s cookies. But acting like her behavior is somehow so completely out of her control when she orchestrated the conditions to get what she wanted is just a way to absolve herself of guilt so she can hold on to her idea of herself a moral.
2025-10-29 05:07 Adding to this was Joyce carrying this entitlement out of the protest and into her real life. It fully explains her behavior over the last day. She wanted to do what she wanted to do and she wanted to use a lack of impulse control as her excuse but she’s just frog and/or Toad eating all the cookies instead of just walking away from the temptation. Yeah Dorothy’s cookies. But acting like her behavior is somehow so completely out of her control when she orchestrated the conditions to get what she wanted is just a way to absolve herself of guilt so she can hold on to her idea of herself as moral.

Adding to this was Joyce carrying this entitlement out of the protest and into her real life. It fully explains her behavior over the last day. She wanted to do what she wanted to do and she wanted to use a lack of impulse control as her excuse but she’s just frog and/or Toad eating all the cookies instead of just walking away from the temptation. Yeah Dorothy’s cookies. But acting like her behavior is somehow so completely out of her control when she orchestrated the conditions to get what she wanted is just a way to absolve herself of guilt so she can hold on to her idea of herself as moral.

tifani

Joyce can’t handle even mild pushback because she’s finally being forced to explain herself — not to others, but to the moral framework she abandoned. For days, she’s been living in a closed circuit where lack of impulse control felt like freedom. Now she’s encountering the relational cost of that experiment. She went against her own moral code and called it liberation; now she’s realizing that even rebellion has accountability. That’s why the smallest resistance feels catastrophic — it isn’t about the criticism, it’s about the mirror. The system she thought she’d escaped is asking for coherence again, and she’s not ready to face how far she’s drifted from her own compass.

JarJar

Am I crazy or does this give Becky energy?-- Like when she first came out? Maybe Joyce is channeling her a lil here.

SmartAlec105

This strip has me feeling the strongest level of “this would be really cute, if it weren’t for the cheating” so far. Like it was really cute when Amber and Walky were relying on Dina to not fuck instead of using self control (strip titled Precipice). Not cute when Joyce is saying cheating was impossible for her to not do.

SmartAlec105

I think it’s more like “she’s had her fill and doesn’t want to go back”.

tifani

Bringing this back to relational ethics (my beloved) : At its core, Joyce’s unraveling is not about morality in the theological sense. Though that’s its roots. Her recent behavior represents a breakdown in systemic balance — the field of mutual accountability that holds relationships coherent. Relational ethics posits that morality is not an internal belief structure but an external network of interdependence. Every individual choice exerts measurable force on that shared field — strengthening or distorting it. When someone acts as though autonomy exists outside that network, dissonance occurs. The system compensates by producing consequence, not as punishment but as correction. Joyce’s error is procedural. She redefined authenticity as impulse and mistook personal liberation for ethical coherence. In doing so, she severed her awareness of reciprocity — the understanding that freedom without regard for others ceases to be ethical and becomes extractive. Her relationships, once stabilizing forces, now reflect the distortion she introduced. Hedonism was never her nature. Joyce’s rebellion was motivated by relief from shame, not pursuit of pleasure. But by converting relief into license, she displaced rather than resolved her moral framework. The guilt and grief surfacing now are not residues of her old faith — they’re signals of system imbalance. What appears as emotional collapse is, in relational-ethics terms, a reassertion of equilibrium. The field is closing its loop. The consequences she faces are not divine or moralistic; they are structural. She is encountering the unavoidable feedback of shared existence — the point where private narrative collides with collective reality. Ultimately, Joyce’s crisis is diagnostic. It demonstrates that liberation divorced from accountability is not freedom but entropy. When the self refuses to acknowledge its impact on others, the relational system enforces recognition. The reckoning is simply the return of coherence — the moment when there is no one left to lie to, including herself.

Alexandra Falk

Well, we just saw her openly attracted to Alice. So that might give you a starting point.

tifani

The point is she hasn’t had her fill.

tifani

It’s that Frank Bidart poem: Understand that you can delude others but not what you more and more now call the beast within you. Understand the cloak that maimed each gave each power. Understand that there is a beast within you that can drink till it is sick, but cannot drink till it is satisfied. Understand that it will use the conventions of the visible world to turn your tongue to stone. It alone knows you. It does not wish you well.

Zesstra

ASMA STATS This is Asma's 30th main strip appearance and 15th strip in which she speaks, bringing her to 50% speaking strips. With 46 words, it's her second wordiest strip.

tifani

Or his other poem: GUILTY OF DUST up or down from the infinite C E N T E R B R I M M I N G at the winking rim of time the voice in my head said LOVE IS THE DISTANCE BETWEEN YOU AND WHAT YOU LOVE WHAT YOU LOVE IS YOUR FATE * then I saw the parade of my loves those PERFORMERS comics actors singers forgetful of my very self so often I desired to die to myself to live in them then my PARENTS my FRIENDS the drained SPECTRES once filled with my baffled infatuations love and guilt and fury and sweetness for whom nail spirit yearning to the earth * then the voice in my head said WHETHER YOU LOVE WHAT YOU LOVE OR LIVE IN DIVIDED CEASELESS REVOLT AGAINST IT WHAT YOU LOVE IS YOUR FATE

tifani

Joyce’s problem isn’t excess; it’s incompletion. Her hunger isn’t gluttony; it’s ontology. And until she meets herself in that hunger, nothing will be sated.

tifani

She’s got a god shaped hole inside her. Something has to fill it. “To fall in love is to create a religion that has a fallible god.” Jorge Luis Borges Joyce’s need for faith hasn’t vanished; it’s been sublimated into human attachment. Dorothy and this feeling becomes her new object of worship — love as the fragile substitute for certainty.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Tifani So, this is like how even if you roll three 20s in a row, you're likely to regress towards the mean if you keep rolling the dice? Is there something analogous to the tendency to roll more double 6s if you roll two d6 one after the other rather than at the same time [1], in your analysis? [1] - "It turns out a thing is a little more likely to happen right after it just happened" is how that one was explained to me.

5099 5618 v2.0

@SmartAlec105 She's learning. It's a very 18/19-yr old mindset she's working through. "Developmentally appropriate" is how I tend to think about it. Not awesome? Sure. But for someone like her at this time in her life, it makes sense.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Tifani Sounds like she's headed for an epiphany, if that holds. God help her. Those are . . . rarely pleasant.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Gray Proctor Sure, but not with them. With Alice and [as yet undisclosed third person], perhaps.

Smoochie

I love your analysis and would like to add— Joyce’s attempt to sublimate faith to human attachment is made worse because there was already an affection shaped hole she was trying to fill. She has always craved wanting someone and them inevitably wanting her back (another reason she and Becky wouldn’t have worked out, but conversations for another day). Now have two big holes (love and faith) side by side becoming what could only be described as one massive canyon that Dorothy must somehow fit inside with all the emotional baggage to go with it.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Tifani I heard of a concept called "God in chains", once. The idea of creating a god/object of worship and then making it tell you to do what you already wanted to do rather than using the opportunity to build a paradigmatic [lens | system] that allowed one to [frame | filter] reality in a useful manner. Like... Kind of a math error? Like trying to use a thing as an eigenvector that lacks the essential characteristics of an eigenvector and using the noise generated like data without acknowledging that it *is* just noise. Not sure if that makes sense or is what you mean. These are interesting to read, tho. Curious where these thoughts will take you.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Tifani I suspect she's been here, before. Probably not her first non-apology.

tifani

@5099 Joyce keeps chasing natural 20s on freedom checks, thinking each crit cancels the failures behind her. But the table always balances itself. You can’t keep rolling advantage on denial; the campaign has built-in regression. Relational ethics works like probability correction — the moral version of the DM saying, “Yeah, but the world still reacts.” Every unchecked roll adds entropy until the party dynamics — the people she’s bound to — pull her back toward coherence. Even chaos has math. The dice remember.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Tifani I guess the TL;DR of that would be that comic of the guy with the swollen head saying that he just took a mega dose of energy drinks and brain supplements. "Oh, so you're smarter now?" "No. I'm wrong *faster*!" It sounds like you're saying Joyce did the moral equivalent of that, unless I landed way off the mark.

5099 5618 v2.0

Hey, got to be the 69th like, today. Neat.

tifani

They take me to the center cannot hold, ya know? This worldview can’t hold. Your relationship can’t be your religion to the exclusion of the world. “God in chains” is the same math error Joyce keeps making — she builds a new idol out of her own noise and mistakes the echo for revelation. It’s still worship, just in a closed circuit. That’s what I mean by the center cannot hold — when belief collapses inward, you start building smaller and smaller altars just to prove gravity still exists. It’s the same instinct that made her pray, just turned self-referential. They take me there too — to that place where meaning’s broken but still burning. But also, one person can’t meet all your needs. If only there were a relationship system that better suited that desire? And what could you even call it 😉

tifani

@5099 wrong faster idk….she’s not wrong for feeling what she feels and it’s only natural to want to fill a void but she is not going about this in a sustainable way for herself or the people she cares about.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Tifani I take some solace in the idea that she'll find people who can help her learn when she's ready to really think it through. Poly is much more accessible than it used to be, as far as I can tell [1], and kids do tend to get the best toys [2]. [1] - With any luck, for instance, she won't have people tell her that no one will ever accept polyamory as a relationship dynamic, and she's likely to just be alone forever if she keeps to that...not that I'm still salty about a few people who tried to sell me that line, back in the day ... [2] - Frankly, they *should* get better toys. That suggests better are being made over time. That's one way progress manifests, after all.

Shane Wegner

There’s a book called “The Muslimah Sex Manual: A Halal Guide to Mind-blowing Sex” by Umm Maladhat which might be interesting to the curious (As a starting point for heterosexual Muslims anyway). (It’s on Amazon/Kindle). Islam itself is actually pretty sex positive in the bedroom of a husband and wife. From there it’s a short hop to “Well, Allah saw fit to make me attracted to the beautiful women Allah created, so I won’t be apologizing for that no matter what fatwah a bearded Imam in a mosque somewhere proclaimed.” Becky did somewhat similar. Living in a Muslim country as I do, I’d estimate non-heterosexuality exists at exactly the same percentages as anywhere else. The social contract on it seems to be keeping it very much on the down low. There is a strong sense of privacy and that looking behind closed doors is prying, with side effects of unauthorized photography is quite taboo, and even flying drones is forbidden in most places because they have cameras and who knows what they might see. That’s not as open and welcoming as say, European countries where same sex couples smooching or even just holding hands public is considered normal and healthy. Relegating same sex (and unmarried) attraction to the privacy of the bedroom keeps it out of sight, out of mind. If people keep it plausibly deniable, a lot of people will turn a blind eye as the social compromise. It’s not the same as full acceptance or acknowledging same sex marriage or couples, but maybe it’s a process that could get there someday. I think a lot of younger people raised with contact to worldwide internet open mindedness are a lot more open minded than conservative elders. Someday the new generation will take the reins. There are already examples of things relaxing even over the last ten years.

Shane Wegner

I think it may be like taking the lid off of one of those cans of spring snakes. After living a life of repression and “REPENT YOUR EVIL LUST”, Joyce is saying “I won’t!’ to anyone who feels like they’re even slightly counseling restraint. As with your thesis on social fabric, Asma is entirely correct that they could take it down a few notches in public for the Greater Good without become repressed.

Tessea

That pesky 'Time & Place' thing again? First the thing with the macaroni and cheese at the theater and now kissing Dorothy? Is there no justice it the world??

Shane Wegner

I’m with Bonesmith’s core take, and can add as someone living in a Muslim country, there is a strong cultural taboo against PDA. Asma’s cultural norms tell her that PDA belongs behind closed doors anyway, let alone in an active tear gas zone. And “I can’t control myself!!” is going to get an answer like “if you know that about yourself, take steps to distance yourself from your temptations as appropriate”.

Rob McBobson

@Shane: In the European country where I love, any smooching or holding hands in public is considered weird. (Though not unhealthy.)

SkibidiChungusFan

Because Dorothy wanted to check on Asma and Joyce respects that but doesn't think she did anything wrong.

SkibidiChungusFan

I respect Asma for placing the blame more on the journalists who centered them than Dorothy and Joyce themselves. These "I did something maybe slightly improper but then a consequence nobody could have expected happened as a result," incidents are always so awkward and tense in the real world, and acknowledging "well it's not like you were the journalist who printed that" is exactly how you remove some of that tension.

MrShoggoth

Doesn’t matter. She’s still fun to observe and read as an outsider to all of the main cast’s shenanigans.

Empress of Robots

Em Dashes are CRIMINALLY underused and under-appreciated!

Seth Aaron Hershman has they/she pronouns

hmmm. i, a non-muslim, have lots of thoughts on how asma, one individual muslim out of millions, whose upbringing and background i know nothing about, might feel about important subjects! i better start speculating wildly based on vague generalizations and massive guesses, and fast, or the haunted suit of armor standing behind me will stab me to death! oh no his blade approaches my fragile flesh UUUHHHHH SHE'S PROBABLY A REGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE, LIKE ALL MUSLIMS, PLEASE DON'T KILL ME HAUNTED KNIGHT

Harold

Just my $0.02, but I highly doubt that Willis's response to the calls for more representation of the comic's Muslim characters is going to include revealing the more likable of those characters to be actively homophobic.

Sajuuk-Khar

Talking to Asma was a Dorpty move and Joyce is only here for wifey and to evangelize about wifey and in case you think something is wrong with that: Nope

Sajuuk-Khar

BLOWJOBS BEAT BOMBS: BUSTY BLOND BISEXUAL BIMBO BOBS BRILLIANTLY ON BILLION BENIGHTED BONERS! BULMERIA BESMIRCHED!

Sajuuk-Khar

Fuckpile (toxic)!! Fuckpile (toxic)!! Fuckpile (toxic)!! *the toxic fuckpile is distinct from the regular fuckpile in that it is likely to cause an avalanche of drama so destructive it will open a portal to the Walkyverse through which Martians and Soggies pour out also the participants are different, two out of the three girls in this comic are not involved

Sajuuk-Khar

Addendum: if you think Asma is wrong or sucks or is mean, also Nope Asma is great and rules and she’s right This is not really a conversation where either viewpoint is The Righteous Truth, they’re both valid

Empress of Robots

It could be nontoxic! Or maybe only a little toxic?! Maybe just a little toxic fuckpile every few months as a treat?

Empress of Robots

WHEEL OF MORALITY, TURN TURN TURN! TELL US THE LESSON THAT WE SHOULD LEARN!

Empress of Robots

Everyone: We want more DOA poly ships! [The Monkey's Paw Curls] How about Joyce, Dorothy, Asma, Alice, Jennifer, and Ruth? The toxic yuri singularity forms!

Sajuuk-Khar

No. Fully toxic. Asma x Alice x Billie x Ruth x Becky x Jason only, no items, Final Destination

Sajuuk-Khar

*erases Joyce and Dorothy* *writes in Becky, in terrifying blood red ink, to ominous giallo soundtrack*

Calder Johnson

This is Joyce and The End of History 2.0. I'm not going to rake her over the coals for it, but she's not evangelizing for Dorothy, she's loudly proclaiming her behavior correct (when no one asked in the first place) and inevitable. This is not a new response from Joyce, we've seen it before. And declaring both her and Asma 'equally valid' is a bummer take. Its possible to celebrate and support Joyce's growth while also acknowledging the growing pains.

Calder Johnson

Yeah, fuuuuck... I was not expecting the turn some of these comments have taken... Depressing.

Harold

@Sajuuk-Khar: Well, Becky IS single now... What? Too soon?

Smoochie

@Empress And the moral of today’s story is… “We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are…And we aren’t great at that either.”

Anna Phylaxis

Also, If you've decided to elevate a Muslim character to new significance in the story for representation - a thing that can absolutely be positive, but I don't want to get into a discussion of representation politics here and it's pitfalls - I think it's a really serious mistake to position her as either being the person to sanctify OR oppose and educate the questionable behavior of your main cast in the recent past. It tokenizes her, and runs the risk of establishing her role in your story solely via her criticizing or condoning the actions of your white main cast, at a time when she has no defined relationships to any other character. This whole thing feels clunky, uncomfortable, and like it's setting Asma up to take the focus of negative reactions from your fanbase in order to mitigate / respond to the criticism you've gotten as author of this story.

Dmitri0240

@Harold I agree that turning Asma into another Mary isn't a good or compelling direction for the character. On the other hand, if the strip flatly refuses to allow Muslim characters to be religiously conservative or bigoted, it would be denying them a dimension that it is willing to afford to Christian (Mary, Joyce's mom, Becky's dad) and Jewish (Ethan's mom) characters. Which if not handled well can make them feel like stand-ins for all Muslims rather than messy, nuanced individuals. I do think the last few panels are a bit too broad to support a clean "you can enjoy kissing your girlfriend as much as you want, just not in a serious protest" reading or even a general "why must anyone, gay or straight, be romantic in public?" reading. But that doesn't mean she has to be an irredeemable bigot either. Personally, I feel like the resolution to this conversation is going to be that we the audience understand that Asma is closeted and is projecting a bit. But Joyce and Dorothy continue to fail the charisma check, so Asma has no reason to trust or confide in them. As a result, Joyce and Dorothy end up (incorrectly) thinking Asma's homophobic, and Asma ends up (not completely incorrectly) thinking Joyce and Dorothy are naive dingbats. And when Asma does eventually come out, there can be a lesson about Joyce not considering the possibility she was closeted out of subconscious Islamophobia or something. Or maybe she's fully open about her sexuality with people she actually likes (which happens to include none of the main cast), and some of us are being Islamophobic for assuming she must be closeted. Or maybe she really was trying to say "best of luck you silly kids, just keep it out of genocide protests in the future" and just did so in a confusing way. Or maybe some of us are reading too much into her reaction to Alice. I don't pretend to know the future or have all the answers; I just think people are being a bit too quick to assume that Asma must be saying the thing they want her to be saying.

zee

.......whatchu mean by that, huh?

zee

Pretty much to assuage her white guilt while still justifying all her actions to herself

zee

I think she's just saying "don't make out at a protest with tear gas in your spit while people are being beaten down by cops, you fucking freshman dipshits"

zee

Boooo

zee

Asmas rad, and imma be keeping an eye out for. Certain intensity of reactions to her on the main site tomorrow. Cuz I have a feeling some people are gonna be angrier about who's saying it than what she's saying, for reasons they probably don't realize yet and will never admit ಠ⁠_⁠ಠ

Calder Johnson

Yeah, I think you're unfortunately on to something. It's been DEEPLY unsettling watching a significant section of these comments turn on Asma, in ways that are wildly judgemental and frequently islamophobic. And yeah, looking back, I should not have been surprised. Because as a character, Asma here has a perfectly sane and rational critque of Joyce and Dorothy's behavior, but you drop her into the middle of the Forever War that is Team Paladin/Sicko...and you get: "Ugh, I don't like her. She's a wet blanket. She's culturally repressed. Maybe she's lashing out because her parents have betrothed her to a much older man." And you're right, because if she had been written to be unconditionally supportive of Joyce and Dorothy, then the OTHER side would have started their screeching and wailing. *sigh* for fucks sake...

Seth Aaron Hershman has they/she pronouns

there's loads of non-religiously-conservative-or-bigoted jews and christians in the comic there's. like. three muslims. total. and one of them's already a huge jerk i don't think it's "denying a dimension" to not have asma be a jerk bigot but. it sure is denying a dimension for everyone to leap to that specific conclusion

Harold

@Dmitri0240: Worth noting that every single character you mention in your first paragraph is explicitly framed as hateful and irredeemable, which, again, obviously isn't where Willis is steering Asma (and I doubt the comic would push Raidah in that direction, either, for whatever THAT's worth).

I Know Why the Mowed Lawn Screams

IDK if this is the take if only because NOT having Asma have any interaction with the main cast simply because ANY reaction to their ignorance runs the risk of negative fandom consensus is genuinely of more offense to me, someone who is a muslim reader, than it would to have her exist and have those interactions, even if that transition from background character to an active one is clumsy. Like, what is the alternative you are thinking of here? I genuinely want to know. The protest storyline was horribly executed and the ramifications will still be felt for a while, but I am just very aggressively tired of this idea that the “right” thing is to divorce Asma from anything to do with it (up-to and including her just talking about the newspaper kiss with Joyce and Dorothy), especially when so much of what made that plot point fail was the dismissal of her agency and perspective as a character.

Sajuuk-Khar

also the reach in saying that this interaction is Asma’s entire new narrative role, “sanctifying or condemning the actions of the white main cast” is Stretch Armstrong levels, like, what??? like given that this is a follow up to your tangent below about how Willis “clearly has never been to a protest” I have a really hard time taking this in good faith, Anna

tifani

Sarah, Joe, Roz, Dina and Asma seem to be the ones I agree with the most often I’m noticing.

Sajuuk-Khar

I took it more as “it’s not super cool to make out at the anti genocide protest sis” and Joyce, being Joyce, of course goes “but I must make out with MAH WIFE everywhere! Because LOVE???” Which, like, that isn’t a drooling moron’s sentiment or nothin’! It’s not really Asma’s business where Joyce makes out! But I don’t think Asma really cares that much, she’s just offering advice on etiquette. Like…It’s not even really an argument, for God’s sake. I’m legit disappointed by how *encamped* people are about this shit, it’s literally a polite disagreement.

Harold

@Sajuuk-Khar: Can we add the old man to whom Asma has been pledged? /s /s /s

Sajuuk-Khar

Characters: Mild Polite Disagreement Commentariat: the vile Others have gone too far. we must steal the conch and kill Piggy

tifani

@astariel She seems like an intelligent and rational human being who doesn’t find Joyce, Dorothy, or their antics particularly charming so she’s not going to coddle them. Friendly reminder they tracked her down and are bothering her at her JOB over this shit and she’s still taking the time to give Joyce some incredibly good advice.

Sajuuk-Khar

I WORKED HARD ON THIS ALLITERATION FOR AN ALTERNATE TIMELINE IDS HEADER DAMMIT

Dmitri0240

@Harold That's not what I think should happen, nor what I want to happen. But I just think "Muslim characters cannot be conservative because they're required to set a good example for a mostly non-Muslim audience" has its own issues, while undeniably being better than "Muslim characters must be bigots because that's what the author assumes a mostly non-Muslim audience will expect". It's the broader justification I have an issue with, not the conclusion for Asma specifically. My money is still on Asma being gay (otherwise, why did we get one or two whole comics establishing the possibility), and the second half of this strip being her losing the plot a bit and giving Joyce and Dorothy the argument she gives herself, not the one they actually deserve. But I will admit I don't see a truly satisfying option: if she's closeted and projecting she's retreading on Joyce's story a bit, if she's just making a point about "right place right time" she's doing so in a very clumsy way, and the strip definitely doesn't need another Mary.

Seth Aaron Hershman has they/she pronouns

dmitri buddy it was muslim readers--who presumably are already pretty libby if they're reading this comic--who were asking for more prominent muslim characters. harold didn't say anything about white people

tifani

Alice/Asma/Billie would be interesting.

Sajuuk-Khar

The ROUGHEST of chuckles, Harold 😅 (I thought that weird comment was from someone I had blocked in some other thread! Turns out I just missed it! Please do better holy shit)

Jesse

What have I done?

Calder Johnson

@I Know Why the Mowed Lawn Screams - Yeah, I think this also expresses my frustration. At least for myself, the issue feels like there was NO good alternative... Either Asma sticks up for herself and the protest and gets yelled at by the particularly rabid Joyce/Dorothy lovers, she (out-of-character) is 100% supportive of those two and then gets yelled at by the haters, or somehow mysteriously has no opinons whatsoever on what happened at the protest. She's a really cool character and its a damn shame that her entrance into the spotlight has to be in the context everyone immmediately interrogating where she stands in the The Great Joyce/Dorothy War (and why, in increasingly uncomfortable ways)

C

I do appreciate the Lord of the Flies reference. And yeah, it's not much of an argument. But passions have run quite high in the comic of late when it comes to the audience.

Calder Johnson

@Sajuuk-Khar - Hey, I want to preface by saying that I really like you, your comments are funny, you seem like a very chill, understanding person...but I really strongly disagree with this 'mild polite disagreement' take. Joyce MADE this Asma's business. She was the one who walked up to her and said, 'I do NOT apologize!' and Asma was like, 'Ok? But you realize how that was kinda problematic and you had a choice regarding place and time, right?' and Joyce says 'Absolutely not, because of True Love or something.' If I were in Asmas' position, I would be so completely done with these two. Her space was invaded, she was given a non-apology that she didn't ask for, and then told there there was nothing that could have been done differently. As a reader, I can have some patience and grace for these goobers, but I think minimizing the inappropriateness (however funny) of these two's behavior or the impact on Asma is not only a disservice to Asma as a character, but also giving some cloud cover to the more wild anti-Asma takes that we're already seeing waaaaaay to much of in this comment section. Sorry to go on a tear there, still think you're cool.

Calder Johnson

This is like one of those Florida interpretations of 'Stand your ground', isn't it? THEY started this conversation!

Ph

I have no idea what the age range of the audience is like here, but the whole paladins vs sickos thing feels like overly online zoomer bs to this boomer, and I was surprised at some of the comments on this strip. I do agree Asma's character has come off as clumsy and overly trying to please (some parts) of the readership, which is impossible with the "which side are you on" nature of the comment section and the fact that her character was not very fleshed out before this storyline. As someone in my 40s, I have to say it's weird to see so many commenters treat Asma's viewpoint so flippantly compared to teenage romance, but maybe this is a generational gap thing where teenage romance is legitimately what matters to the readers.

Rob McBobson

I wish people in this comments field would stop discussing "Muslims" and "white people" as if they were two separate groups.

Rob McBobson

@Tifani: So far, that's true for me too, possibly excepting Roz whose opinions I don't remember right now and might have to look up in the archive.

Waifu Purplebutt

@zee I mean what I said taken at face-value. @Seth or maybe I can be curious about an extremely common point of contention that could present an interesting storyline if Willis wanted to explore it @Harold thank you for that, I didn't think that that was expressing attraction to her at the time, and still don't, but I can see how one might think it

Calder Johnson

@Zee - to be entirely fair, it was really Dorothy who was there to assauge her white guilt and Joyce was there to justify her actions. Just a great one-two combo.

Sajuuk-Khar

Calder I don’t really know what else you call it when one person (Joyce) says “I do not apologize for kissing my gf during [heated, inappropriate?] moment you witnessed”, and the other (Asma) says “lol okay, but maybe you should’ve held off?” and then Joyce goes [in a very goofy fashion] “but I am horny and in love! big anime pout!!” whilst Asma visibly dismisses this because it is silly and gets a satisfying last word punchline. like, what would you call that?? I’m honestly confused what that is, to you? and why are we dragging Dorothy? Like yeah she’s motivated by dumb white guilt but Jesus H. Dick, all she did was check in on someone after trauma (kind) and apologize for seeming like a cop (frivolous). (Which, also, was the thing that clearly prompted Joyce to talk about Dorothy and how it was correct to kiss her. Which is what I meant by “evangelizing her wifey”, which I thought was pretty clear?also? it wasn’t exactly out of nowhere!) finally I don’t really understand the causation between “Dotty and Joyce do a silly white guilt apology, Asma correctly snarks at it (also Joyce is horny)” and “members of the commentariat decide to take off their pants and show their stupid Islamophobic asses to the whole world”. why are Joyce or Dorothy responsible for that. why is calling Joyce’s harmless dumb sentimentality that reflects a character flaw pretty harmless in this moment giving that cover? I don’t understand. I don’t think there’s correlation here and I think the responsibility for the Islamophobia lies with the Islamophobes.

Sajuuk-Khar

Oh come on, Rob, next you’ll be asking us to believe that Islam is a worldwide religion with adherents from countless different ethnic backgrounds and to treat someone’s faith as a cultural otherness indicator is some wild-ass orientalist nonsense

Sajuuk-Khar

I guess, for full disclosure: obviously Dotty and Joyce walking up to Asma and starting this conversation is a little inappropriate. it’s not polite. Hence the lampshade about post-nut clarity? If we’re talking about the act of *starting the conversation*, sure, that’s rude of Dotty and Joyce, but like, I thought we all knew that? several days ago??

Calder Johnson

Ah yes, The Very Interesting Storyline of How The Muslim Character Specifically Included for Greater Representation is Actually a Bigot. Flawless.

Seth Aaron Hershman has they/she pronouns

"look i was just asking very nicely and politely if this person from a group i'm not in would conform to the negative stereotype that lives in my head, because it's important storytelling information"

Harold

Daisy probably would never put anything dick-related on the front page, though

tifani

@omnithea I guess there’s no helping your bad taste.

Waifu Purplebutt

@Calder Diversity also brings diversity of thought and culture, and sometimes cultures clash - the subject I brought up is an extremely common point of contention between Muslim and generic American culture. Yes, Willis could portray Asma as not bigoted and keep her as a 2-dimensional token-diversity side character, or he could give her more depth as a character and show that she has flaws that could be main-plot-relevant or at least side-character arc-worthy where she changes her views as time goes on, or she gives perspective that not everyone is going to be supportive and for reasons not so easily hand-waived as modern society does for fundy-Christian ones.

tifani

@calder omg right!? She’s literally at her place of work! It’s not like she can just tell them to fuck off without the possibility of consequences. There’s nothing brave about cornering someone in a place where they have to maintain a degree of professionalism and then starting in argument in anticipation of judgment she did not initiate. Joyce brought up the damn kiss.

tifani

This shouldn’t have to be Asma’s job (while at her actual fucking job) but someone has to serve the narrative function of explicitly telling these two just how much they actually fucked up. Just the fact that they thought they could just approach her like this tells me they are just in full blown denial about how bad their behavior has been. And it might be best that it’s someone established as worth taking seriously who is not a friend and barely an acquaintance makes this clear before the people who have feelings involved pop back up. She has no reason to mince words with them. She’s actually being nicer than they deserve. And they might blow some of their stupid on her and gain some brain cells back in response by the time they meet up with Joe/Sarah. So the conversation with them might not go as bad as it could. I just wish a woman of color didn’t have to perform emotional labor for these two to maybe learn something they should already know.

Dmitri0240

@Seth I'm confused, because I didn't say anything about white people either. So who exactly are you arguing against? When it comes to marginalized groups, representation in media comes in three phases. First, they're forced to be stereotypes. Second, they're forced to be anti-stereotypes. Third, they're allowed to have a nuanced set of virtues and vices just like any other character. Pointing out the downsides of phase 2 is not the same as advocating for a regression to phase 1. And if the comic is going to start treating Asma with more nuance, I think we should be careful about jumping to unsupported conclusions just because a character we know very little about is scolding people who we think deserve to be scolded. There's a lot of narrative daylight between "Asma is bigot, and portraying her as such is Islamophobic" and "disregard her actual words, Asma is actually saying exactly what I want her to be saying". Presumably, tonight we'll get more information.

Dmitri0240

@Calder If Asma's only function in the story was to righteously scold Joyce and Dorothy for their actual transgressions, then it wouldn't have been hard to rewrite the last half of this strip to make clear that she's making the "a protest against genocide of people you're not a part of is not an appropriate place for a date; be a responsible ally or else make googly eyes at each other in your own dorm room" argument. And if that were the case, having a whole strip of her seeming to find Alice attractive and a whole strip where her mind immediately jumps to a lesbian threesome would be a complete non-sequitur. Rightly or wrongly, it was a narrative choice to make Asma's scolding drift away from the actual events in question and towards an obligation to avoid temptation in general. I hope the resolution we get is more interesting than either "the author made a narrative oopsy" or "surprise, Asma's a bigot now".

ArdieBea

This has been bugging me a little overnight, so I'm gonna try to get it down - but also, this is my third day without sleep, so I don't know how lucid I'm gonna be. My main issue with the dialogue here is that Joyce heads off down into purity culture tropes and Asma follows her. "What am I supposed to do, not kiss her?" "She was right there, it was impossible not to." Just on a factual level, this is incoherent. She wasn't 'right there' until Joyce ran into the protest to tell her that she *could* have what she wanted. And Joyce didn't just grab her and kiss her; there was very clear communication between them first. So where does this come from? This sort of assumption that romantic/erotic feelings are uncontrollable and have to be expressed regardless of context (or, from what Joyce just said, consent!) is what drives a lot of fundamentalist bullshit about sexuality that leads to the authoritarian repressiveness that Joyce was raised with (and that is being legislated for in far too many places, today!) Asma's response, "Don't put yourself in a position where you're tempted to," is word for word purity culture teaching. "Don't get in the back seat with boys." "Don't be alone with a boy." All aimed at girls - who are responsible to police their behaviour to keep the boys safe from their uncontrollable lusts. And of course the girls, who aren't allowed to have sexual feelings at all, have to practice the sort of double-think that Joyce gives us in the final panel. Joyce is better than this. In the Walkiverse, during the writing of which Willis was doing a lot of the work of deconstructing his own upbringing, Joyce was so terrified of her own sexual feelings that they ended up in an 'Anti-Joyce' clone. Which she shot in the head, as she couldn't tolerate that Joyce's uninhibited (selfish and enthusiastic) sexuality. In the Dumbiverse, Anti-Joyce has made a single brief appearance in dialogue, during which Joyce uses her as a way of telling Joe exactly how horny she is for him. But it's an integrated Joyce who gets down from the tree, and the following few days show how she gets to grips with being a sexual person in a safe, consenting, kind relationship. I've commented elsewhere about how Dorothy's anxiety short-circuits her brain - and so does her horniness. Is the same true for Joyce? We could argue it doesn't have to do much; she's always expressive about her feelings and thoughts. But this is 'post-nut clarity' Joyce. And honestly, I think she's often expressing herself most honestly and accurately when she's at her most passionate. In this dialogue I think she's actually regressed a little. In her own mind she's married this woman, and she's thinking like the romantic (home-)school girl she used to be - with all it's associated bullshit. Which is all to say, I think Dorothy has some more fundy to fuck from her.

Calder Johnson

Both-sideism obfuscates when real harm is being done and recasts the behavior as 'harmless'. And clearly we didn't 'all know that' based on the number of people cheering Joyce on as she aggressively non-apologizes to Asma and proceeds to also claim there was nothing she could have done differently.

I Know Why the Mowed Lawn Screams

JFC it's actually fucking crazy to link an article written by someone in the CEMB (Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain) in response to Seth, like that is not an unbiased source with 0 agenda. Like c’mon that is a whole ass journal about how western non-muslim leftists are actually doing muslims wrong by NOT being more islamophobic, you are actually fucking kidding me here.

zee

@Ph based on the last poll someone did, I don't remember the numbers well enough to say which group was dominant but Zoomers are a minority. The majority was at least 30+. So no, its just classic tribalism, nothing gen specific

Seth Aaron Hershman has they/she pronouns

wait wait wait am i understanding correctly that you think it would be interesting for asma to not only be homophobic starting out, but to continue to be homophobic, and for people to have to accept that homophobia because her reasons are harder to dismiss and also that you think asma not being a bigot would make her "two dimensional" because like. jesus fuck

zee

Asma, a real adult talking about real life things vs Joyce's terminal romcom brain. Who will win? Find out next time

Harold

Dorothy: "CHALLENGE ACCEPTED"

zee

I, have a feeling you are going to get very gross toward Asma the longer the interaction goes on. Like with Sarah.

zee

She's basically asking for this. "I do not apologize for the kiss" who asked???? Hurry up with your white guilt apology, make yourself feel better and go. Leave this poor woman bout her business

ArdieBea

Tifani, this is very interesting and provides a really useful way of thinking about the interactions. One question comes up for me, however, and that's the origin of 'Relational Ethics.' You're using a number of terms that are related to physics and so it sounds like a positivistic approach to relationships, but I doubt that it's entirely value-free. Every ideological system has it's own unique take on relational ethics due the diverse ways of understanding human personhood. Capitalist and communist theorists have very different values for people, but both could claim a positivist cloak for their approaches. Every religious belief system carries it's own understanding of what an appropriate relational state is. When we offer an apparently value-free approach, the concern is that it operates to reify and normalise existing cultural preconceptions of relationships.

Sajuuk-Khar

Joe: It’s dangerous to go alone, Dotty, take this *hands her his penis in a sweater vest*

Calder Johnson

This is something I've been considering in the back of my mind for a while in this storyline - and that's that both the other characters as well as the readership has an interesting tendency to see Joyce as more morally flawless (or flawed) than she actually is, like there's this innate resistance to seeing her as complicated (and I include myself!) When Joyce is good, she's amazing. But she also has a lot of flaws that others seem to either fixate on or hand wave as part of her growth process. And it seems to lead towards all kinds of weird and extreme takes when it comes to this specific character, whether condemnation or apologia.

Sajuuk-Khar

Calder what both sides-ism??? where is Joyce actually being aggressive??! what harm, *in-comic*, is *actually being done* besides “Asma is approached for emotional labor”, which I already acknowledged is gauche and problematic and also like, even if the commentariat doesn’t get it, that was set in motion two days ago?? Like I just. Do not get the stakes here for you??? Asma is not being harmed?? At most she is being inconvenienced and she’s dealing with it like a champ??? The people being harmed are real Muslims who have to read stupid shit from real non-Muslim assholes who don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about and are digging in their heels , but that’s not the characters’ fault!

Sajuuk-Khar

Zee: lmao next time on JOJOE’S BIZARRE DORVENTURE— Asma: Oh?? You’re approaching me? Instead of walking away from my counter and my real adult discussion points, you’re coming right to me?! Joyce: I can’t gush about my new special interest, Dorothy, without getting closer! Asma: HOHO! Then by all means, get as close as you like! But I’m calling security!

Sajuuk-Khar

when I said Joyce was valid, this was not what I meant valid does not mean “totally correct, I support them 1000%”

Sajuuk-Khar

ah, but ALTERNATE Daisy might be crazy for dudes

Harold

@Sajuuk-Khar: Step One: ...

Harold

Alternate ALTERNATE headline (disclaimer: it is nowhere near as good or ambitious as Sajuuk-Khar's): PROTESTER HAD ONE JOB, BLOWS IT

tifani

@ardiebea This is a new interest for me so I’m hardly an expert so bear with me. “Relational ethics” doesn’t really have one founder — it’s more of an evolving framework shaped by ideas from care ethics, phenomenology, and systems thinking, all circling the belief that morality happens between people, not above them. My interest is still new and developing, but I treat it like a kind of moral physics — an attempt to describe how reciprocity and consequence behave in motion. It isn’t value-free; it’s value-responsive, bending and shifting depending on the integrity of the relationships inside it. Joyce and Dorothy and how they’re navigating this situation as well as the ripple effects feel like kind of the perfect case study for this to me or just a useful frame to think all this through with. But as for what values emerge from it: reciprocity, accountability, empathy, and coherence.

Maude Reads Things

I dunno what Asma gets paid for this, but Jesus fuck, someone double it

Logibear

@Harold "Sorry, I kinda zoned out there and only heard the last part. Who we fucking and how hard?"

tifani

If it’s anything like my old work study position it’s not much at all.

Star Ringer

This also really bugged me in ways I couldn't articulate. It's like after the fourth speech bubble it veers off into a completely disjointed thread.

Astariel

I'll say it, then. Joyce is totally correct, I support her 1000%.

Astariel

@Calder - I agree that they should have followed Joyce's intuition and not started this conversation at all, but now that we're in it, I have to support my ship, and especially the big kiss, which was the best thing that ever happened in this comic.

Astariel

@Tifani - Nah, there's was the random 'cop energy' insult at the protest, and now she's coming after the kiss. Don't like it, don't think it's good advice, think she's a bit of a jerk. It's true that Joyce & Dorothy should have left her alone, though. Joyce's epiphany was right about that.

Fart Captor

@Purple floof, how the fuck do you not hear yourself?

zee

Interesting how you never asked this about the Mormon character

zee

I'm sorry did you really just lay out the options as "either she's homophobic or a token"