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Radio War Nerd EP #439 — The Battle of Kursk, Pt. 2: Prokhorovka and Nazi Retreat (feat. Annibale) (Patreon)

Published:
2024-04-21 00:31:25
Imported:
2024-04
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Guest: Annibale

Recorded: April 18, 2024

Part 2 of our 3-part series on the Battle of Kursk (part 1 here), with Annibale. This episode: the Soviets turn the tide against the Nazis at Prokhorovka, popularly known as the largest tank battle in history.

Listen to part 1 of our Battle of Kursk series (EP #436) with Annibale here.

Further listening with Annibale:-EP #131 — The Italian Resistance Movement in WW2-EP #385 — Silvio Berlusconi, from Years of Lead to Post-Fascism

*Maps & Images

*Battle of Kursk

*Battle of Prokhorovka, July 12

*Waffen SS at Kursk, outfitted like future-NATOid

*Battle diorama, Museum of the Battle of Kursk, Belgorod, Russia

Music interlude by Brendon Anderegg. Check out music from his group Mountains here. 

Total time: 1:40:15

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here

*

Subscribe to Radio War Nerd at patreon.com/radiowarnerd

Sound production by Telescope Audio

Check out the Radio War Nerd Merch store here!

Order your print or ebook of John Dolan's new book Erdogan Pizza: Dispatches from a Violent & Grotesque World

Files

Comments

NYCM&AHole

Three parts!!? Oh baby this is called being spoiled

Alyx Kapoor

you guys kept on missing opportunities to say "of-kursk" instead of "of course"

JBS

EETLAR ❤️❤️❤️

Jack Ross

We love Annibale don’t we folks

Damnboooi

On the topic of who is to blame: Manstein for all his famed military brilliance was politically very naive and believed/hoped that if the Wehrmacht inflicted significant losses on the Red army they would be able to negotiate a white peace with the soviets. Kursk makes more sense if you think this is a viable strategy, but it really just demonstrates the mediocre political instincts of the German officer class. Part of their habit of putting tactical expediency before any coherent strategy.

William

Tanks are just highly mobile artillery?! BLASPHEMY

Doug Cartel

now that you mention it I remember some videos/commentary from 2022/23 about how the threat of drones and mines and ATGMs was so heavy that Russian tanks were operating as beyond-line-of-sight artillery with the help of drones etc, to avoid being seen and all that. Now that the situation is diffrent I wonder how much they're still doing that?

William

Re: lost cause-ish of Nazis: Okay, hypothetically, Germans win at Kursk. There’s still no way they win the war, with the industrial might of two superpowers being thrown against them. The soviets crushed the Nazi war machine- what if they only fought them to a standstill instead? The argument makes no sense

Annibale

I suggest you check Marcel Stein's "Field Marshal Von Manstein, A Portrait: The Janus Head," the only study available on Manstein, as far as I know. Robert Forscyck (himself a decent EF expert) gave it a scathing review, but Stein nails Manstein's mix of technical skill, hubris, and duplicity.

Annibale

I love Dagmar Krause

Damnboooi

Thank you Annibale, I will do that. I think one of the most interesting questions about ww2 which is often ignored by many traditional western historians is “if the generals of the Wehrmacht were such whiz kids, how come they didn’t see the obvious direction of the war in the east” (at least after fall 41). It’s a complicated question and studying the thinking of figures like manstein is interesting, frustrating, and creepy. Thanks!

Annibale

BTW Hans Eisler original song is amazing Du Färberssohn vom Lech, im Kluckerspiele Dich messend mit mir in vergang'nen Jahren Wo bist Du in dem Staub der Panzerbile Die nun das schöne Flandern niederfahren? Die fleischerne Bombe auf Calais gefällt Warst du das, Weberssohn der Spinnerei? Oh Sohn des Bäckers meiner Kinderwelt Gilt dir der blutenden Champagne Schrei?

Trout Mask Original

She is amazing. A fellow admirer referred to her as 'the Voice of Armageddon.' I followed her from the Slapp Happy/Henry Cow times forward and have been lucky enough to see her perform twice.

Annibale

Slap Happy were great.

Annibale

We will precisely talk about this in the next episode!

Damnboooi

I am looking forward to it. Particularly , if possible, why there were not more people like von Tresckow given the immense disaster the Wehrmacht was facing. Probably because of “soldier’s honor” (sarcasm)

Borvis

This was an excellent discussion. Probably not enough time, but the USSR doesn’t consider Kursk to be over at the same time the Germans do. When the Germans say Kursk “ended” is right before a massive Soviet counterattack, Operation Kutusov.

Annibale

Yes, absolutely true. In fact, the difference in "timing" is a big deal in today's discussion over the battle results because the Germans (and the West) think Kursk is from July 5th to July 19th, while for the Soviets/Russians, it is from July 5th to the end of August, with a "defensive" and "offensive" phase. If you consider different timelines, the battle result is not the same.

Doug Cartel

Italian: Eetler English: Hitlur Russian: Gitler American: Hitler German: Daddy

Doug Cartel

(The joke is that I'm mad at the germans right now)

PublicMarkets

Great ep. I was just thinking about the time that Annibale explained 40k titans to John and Mark. He’s the best.

Jed Hovey

Really good episode. Years ago I saw this documentary on the Berlusconi administration, Videocracy, and ever since I've been a proponent of the idea that Trump was basically the American Berlusconi and we were simply behind Italy on the curve of that trend. It was all there, the reality-TV star media mogul portion, the vulgarity, the right wing populism. If I wanted to take the thesis further, there's a lot rhetoric about fascism in the US in the runup to the 2024. If Italy really is just a look into the future of the United States, the rise of the Lega Nord probably is not a good omen. My understanding of Italian politics is extremely thin at best, but the common line is that there is significantly more wealth in northern Italy. It's kind of hard not to connect this to the regional preference for far-right political candidates.

Dorst Savijeski

I wouldn't compare the person or their administration. Trump came from real estate NY and their trying to get him for stupid bravado because he thought Kanye won him the elections. Berlusconi vida loca plus 20. Hubert and I fight a lot about U.S politics...

Jed Hovey

That's not entirely true. Trump had a very popular reality TV show called The Apprentice. I think that was a major start for his political career

Hans Anders

Italy was ahead of the curve mainly because the traditional power blocs imploded earlier than elsewhere due to the mani pulite scandal. I think much of Europe has catched up by now. The US is a bit of a different beast imo, although there are interesting parallels.

Crosley Querin

Yeah but Berlusconi was a by-product of the P2 Lodge, a gladio operation. Italy was wracked for years with collapsing governments, once they got their man in Berlusconi, he was untouchable.

Dorst Savijeski

*no troll, Trump's laisser faire and having ambassadors with more than a c.v was great for developing countries here and there.

Demented Avenger

You gotta admit that Manstein had a lot of reason to drink that rare liquor after the war.

Gengeros

Could Kursk have worked if it was carried out in March or April 1943, before the Soviets could muster their forces and set up 3 defensive lines with a bunch of land mines? I am also of the belief that the only hope for an Axis victory is massive defeat of the Soviets leading to a peace so they could focus on the Western allies.

Annibale

Based on the latest archival research, the current view is that they couldn't because of the weather but also because the Soviets had already brought significant reinforcement there. At the same time, the Germans had to rebuild theirs after Stalingrad. Add to this that Manstein himself had health troubles during the Spring and could not participate in the planning