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Radio War Nerd EP #460 — "Civil War" + World of Wars, feat. Thierry Jutel (Patreon)

Published:
2024-07-31 15:49:06
Imported:
2024-07
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Guest: Thierry Jutel

Recorded: July 29, 2024

We discuss Alex Garland's "Civil War" flick with NZ-based film professor Thierry Jutel, and roundup the latest wretched irl war news from Sudan to Ukraine...

First - we talk with Thierry Jutel about "Civil War" and vibes...At 52:40 - music interlude by Brendon Anderegg (Check out music from his group Mountains here)At 54:06 - we look at current wars as of July 29: UAE in Sudan, Hezbollah (?) rocket killing 12 Druze in illegally-occupied Golan Heights, Venezuela election + grim Ukraine war update...

Total time: 1:36:06

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here

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Sound production by Telescope Audio

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Order your print or ebook of John Dolan's new book Erdogan Pizza: Dispatches from a Violent & Grotesque World

Files

Comments

HarshMalarkey

Oh shit, lemme watch the movie first brb

Ander Pierce

Haven't seen the film, but I don't understand why someone would make a US civil war without making it jarringly plausible. Maybe it's just mental illness, but every time I drive past an excavator, a hill, or along a highway underneath a ridge I imagine what partisan civil war in the USA would look like. Naturally a British guy comes up with a Texas/California alliance breaking into the White House, rather than anything more plausible.

ThatAintChocolate

Why the expression of doubt that Madurao’s win was legitimate from you guys? You said it had to be rigged yet admitted that the opposition literally has been trained in election subversion. What is the basis or reporting you guys have seen that would substantiate that doubt and can you share? Because I haven’t seen in it compared to the amount of misinformation. But I trust yall a lot

MoldyTolge

Wanted more atrocities and less character development in Civil War in the hopes that seeing the reality of such conflicts would dismiss whatever insurgent fantasies Americans entertain. Something the movie nailed according to my photographer friend is that war photographers are almost universally scum when you meet them in person, based off his experiences with the Afghan Girl dude and the Man-melted-to-tank guy.

Connor

I love calling them nick heffernon and Jesse plumber.

MoldyTolge

The most realistic part imo was how much fun Chinese journalists were having covering the war.

NYCM&AHole

There’s no artillery in the film because it all got sent to the Ukraine

Ander Pierce

Grimly funny that fascists are continuing their trend of assassinating each other more than their ideological opposites. Whenever anyone tells me that Azov's Neo Nazism is fake news I quote Biletsky, their founder. "Ukraine must lead the white races of the world in a crusade against the Semite-led Untermensch". Doesn't change people's minds, clearly using people's own words to inform your understanding of their politics is a sign of Putin-worship.

Tariq

emergency episode incoming pretty soon, i would imagine

Doug Cartel

The russians have been highly methodical in this war, they basically waited until most of Ukraine's AAA ran out of ammo before they got more aggressive with their air force. "The Blitzkrieg Myth" has been pretty convincing to me that war has not actually changed much. Rapid advances are still highly risky and the stories people tell about nazi blitzes is mostly brits trying to pretend they didnt suck at their jobs

James Whale

Highly recommend Ingmar Bergmans Shame. Early 1960s tale of a fictional modern civil war in Sweden. WAY better than CIVIL WAR

Simon Maraya

I cannot imagine watching Civil War and thinking that the film wants you to valorize the journalists. They seem to me to be so clearly painted as adventurist psychos who endanger themselves and others to reproduce propaganda that leads to more death. Then again, I don't understand how cops and US soldiers revere Full Metal Jacket, so I think it's my own failing of imagination.

Doug Cartel

Nazis LOVE murdering each other and we should give them as many opportunities to do it It's the only thing Congress should actually send to them

CR

Patton Oswalt has a bit about him and his brother drunkenly watching Jerry Maguire on opening day (Christmas) and how it became a comedy with two hours of setup to one punchline when his brother yelled out during Tom Cruise's big speech at the end. I watched a cam rip of this movie to see if it was worth going to watch in IMAX. If you aren't familiar, all these cam rips on streaming sites have online casino ads interspersed. The last shot of Civil War - the actual B&W photo of the soldiers looking at the photographer after killing Nick Offerman. That shot was up for 1/24th a second before a giant casino ad popped up over the middle of the screen and it made this dull shit the funniest fucking thing I've seen all year.

CR

The Hunt was great. Betty Gilpin kicked so much ass.

CR

Moviemakers are not smart. Welles called it talent without intelligence.

Jimothy Realname

The curse strikes again! You record an episode the day before a major event and then release it the day after.

Joe S.

Regarding Trump's cowardice:I think he's one of those people who doesn't really believe he can actually die. He's never face an obstacle that he couldn't bluff his way past. From that perspective it isn't shocking that his first instinct is to put on a little show for people.

OH

Did we see totally different movies? I saw it a big criticism of journalists. Portrayed as greedy adrenaline junkies, definitely not as heroes. I’m not sure where you saw heroic portrayals, the depressed photographer? The adrenaline thoughtless junky? The starry eyed young ignorant beginner? The grizzled old man who doesn’t know his limits?

Mark

Also reminds me of the "Human Wave" silliness that serves to hand wave (no pun intended) basic infantry tactics like screening, probing, or attacking with superior numbers

Jimothy Realname

mars bringer of war playing at max volume in my head all day

ploob

It would take John to correctly characterize 'vocal Fry's as a hunting language.!

Jaime Christley

I'm just pausing early in to say THREE BILLBOARDS was one of the most disappointing movies I've ever seen in my life - mostly because, prior to that, I was fully on Martin McDonagh's side with IN BRUGES and his acclaimed short film SIX SHOOTER. (SEVEN PSYCHOPATHS is pretty wobbly but it's got some stuff going for it.) I can't think of a single good thing to say about it - every time I remember a scene from it, any scene, I roll my eyes so hard I give myself an ice cream headache.

Sean Atkinson

keep in mind that the only reason that the United States has not had more civil wars is that the United States itself is a permanent war environment. That white affluent people get to pretend otherwise does not change the fact.

Horseloverfat

FWIW offerman himself has much better politics than the times set. Went on trillbillies as I recall

Matt Colston

John there was something that made me feel off, it felt so unrealistic about no artillery. No matter the Civil War artillery usually decides most urban conflicts. I think about couple in the '90s or any Iraqi city during the 2000s invasion and even when my dad was watching it who was Marine was like where is their artillery because we're not going into a city without being able to hit him with artillery.

Mark Ames

I don't want to join the usual regime-change crowd by over-emphasizing the rigged elections story. The main story is that the US has spent over 2 decades relentlessly trying to overthrow the socialist government there, starting with the US role in organizing the 2002 coup. But since we're supposed to be tellin it like we sees it whether any rigging happened, the fact that the most popular opposition politician, loathsome and reactionary as she is, was barred from running, and after she was barred, the stand-in she nominated in her place was also barred, leaving as the only choice this dreary old diplomat to stand in -- that alone rigs it. Very much a Putin move. As for the vote count, the Carter Center, which has generally been good on pushing back against regime-change efforts to discredit Chavez-era (and early Maduro) Venezuela elections, called out irregularities. But as we said, no one knows how much the rigging influenced the outcome, could've been minor, could've been decisive. For me the fact that Lulu came out for recognizing the results is enough to confirm my general sense that we're playing someone else's game if we focus on the rigging rather than on America's long dirty war against chavismo [CORRECTION BELOW, LULA HASN'T RECOGNIZED ELECTION RESULTS]. https://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr/2024/venezuela-073024.html

CR

I wonder how much of Zelensky's survival has been solely due to his bodyguards all being Anglo-American operators. On a funny note, it is wild to see how every right-wing factional fight ends in murder.

CR

I know the U.S. stands alone in its capacity for force projection, but if Portland Maoists can make it to the east coast, foreign interlopers would have turned the eastern seaboard and California into a shooting gallery.

Al Goehring

True story: I watched 3 Billboards Outside of French Montana with my slightly estranged brother when visiting relatives. When each of us realized the other one hated it (we both knew people thought it was great), we hugged for the first time in a long time and it’s been on the mend since.

Tom Warner

Ukrainian wignats really on some People's Front of Judea shit huh

Tom Warner

Also, tangentially related, would you be willing to do an episode/series on the Spanish Civil War? Personally I think the odds of American Civil War II are quite low, but if it did happen, it would probably look a lot more like 1936 Spain than either 1861 America or that silly movie. Maybe Anibale happens to be a subject matter expert?

Jaime Christley

That's the best thing I've heard related to any recent film, good or bad.

Al Goehring

Annibale or any other paisanos who might listen, y’all know a real US Civil War 2 would NEED brave cutting edge Italian journalism! “Ciao bella gente! Oggi andiamo a Washington DC per intervistare i besughi che fare la guerra civile, ehhhh? Questo ragazzo nella occhiali rossi, ha mi chiesto ‘Che tipo American sei?’ Belandi! Io detto a quel besugo ‘sono di gli United States of Genova, e ti spacco la faccia!”

CE

The polarized responses to the main characters are really interesting. Unfortunately, I think we have to take Garland at his word that this is a movie about the “dangers of extremism.” When extremists have their way— be they fascists or leftists, it doesn’t make a difference to centrists like Garland—then all one can do is document the atrocities from the doggedly unbiased position only journalists can occupy (while secretly enjoying the adrenaline rush that comes with this voyeuristic role) vis a vis the public). The main characters watch the horrors unfold with the dead eyes of a NYT reporter and then talk in vocal fry about how it makes them feel with their world-weary reporter friends. That is the right thing to do for someone with Garland’s politics. What else can you do when the crazies have won the day? Leftists see this movie and think it has to be satirical: “Surely Garland wants us to hate the main characters. They are amoral scumbags.” No, Garland doesn’t want us to hate the main characters. He *is* the main characters. I don’t think it’s a sophisticated “art installation” at all. I think it is a frank expression of a kind of elite liberal nihilism.

Blown Magnet

I was just in Chile and I noted how a number of times Chileans complained to me about illegal immigrants from Venezuela. Santiago has a large visible population of poor people, who have to sell possessions in the street to survive.

Webb

Civil War - pretty clear indictment of NATO aesthetics to me. First two acts are Yugoslav wars, with journalists riding around trying to manage inscrutable politics they cannot understand; second half is Iraq, with embedded journalists gleefully joining a racially diverse array of soldiers to commit war crimes. Also funny to me that Mark says it reminds him of a zombie movie, because I would bet the zombie movie it reminds him of is 28 Days Later (also written by Alex Garland).

Totally Tanked

Was it just me or did this one cut off abruptly?

Shfifty_five

I only ask this because you guys are one of the only outlets I trust so I wantto know ehat I am missing here. You guys typically mention there are always irregularities in elections but widespread rigging doesn't line up with what people on the ground have said. That includes international lawyers and NGOs as well as Blumenthal and MintPress. From what I have read, the Carter Center's claims stand out, this election was observed by more foreign observers than almost any other and CC (funded by orgs like USAID etc btw) is in the minority. Trusting US backed NGOs on election claims without solid evidence generally goes against everything you have stated previously. What leads you guys to assume widespread "rigging" is inevitable? I'm not defending Maduro here but I've seen no evidence, meanwhile, some of the most evil ghouls stand to either coopt or destabilize the country. Is there a claim/evidence from a non-US aligned source that I should trust?

Christopher Small

Such a missed opportunity with Civil War. I was so disappointed with it that I decided to game out my own little Civil War scenario as a fun little world building exercise. Within two years liberal nerds who grew up on What’s the Matter with Kansas and cosplayed as Populists took over the Midwest after falling out with the Democratic establishment/Nat Sec state when they tried to purge them after a false flag coup. As for conservatives in the South and plains states, they talked themselves into Velayat-e Faqih led by the Supreme Court. Good times

Miko

For an American civil war I wonder if it would look a lot more like the Missouri/Kansas "small band" war parties rather than actual armies on the march. Recently a Texas white power gang attacked a mix race family out river tubing, and I wonder if future conflict is going to look a lot more like that. Bands of local men and gangs looking for soft targets to lynch versus stand up fights between army size groups. https://www.texasobserver.org/neo-nazi-martindale-arrest-gang/

grey

I second this. Washington should've been rubble before the final assault just like Berlin was in 1945.

CR

See below about moviemakers being dumb. His statements aside, I think Garland was genuinely trying to make a movie about heroic journalism.

CR

But that's the thing - extremists on the right kill each other and everyone else in the U.S. Extremists on the left just shit on each other online forever while the FBI tosses more gas on the fire as needed.

Joey Fazzoli

There’s a great 3 part series about the spanish civil war that was done by Matt Christman. It’s on the chapo trap house patreon

Sean Atkinson

Shame on you for claiming 1) Hizbollah bombed the Golan Heights and 2) that the Venezuelan elections were rigged in favor of Maduro. It shows that in the 12 hours when it matters, you support the CIA version of events.

Sean Atkinson

Tom- the research that has come out in the last decade or so show how american aristocracy, specifically Texaco ensured a win by the fascists. I too hope for an episode on it, my family lived through those years. Military oppression guaranteed that only the affluent and the military had enough to eat, for years after the war, and the stunted growth of my relatives was to me a scary reminder of those decades. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/03/texaco-franco-spanish-civil-war-rieber/

Sean Atkinson

My thesis with Mark and Gary is that WHEN IT COUNTS, they know not to screw with CIA/Pentagon/Satete Dept/MICYMAC operations when they are ongoing. So they are ALWAYS wrong when it matters, and then are free to tell the truth after the fact. I remember them when Russia finally decided to defend eastern Ukraine, it was revolting.

Jess

This is such a beautiful story (also Martin McDonagh a HACK)

Shane

UAE, mercenary supplier and sponsor of this year’s TdF winner.

Mark Ames

correction: Lula HASN'T recognized Maduro's victory and he's demanding the government release the full ballot records, which the government hasn't done yet, which is something they've never done in any previous election. Perhaps Biden has a Lula pee tape?

Mark Ames

Matt/Chapo's presidents series was a pure joy, especially the early presidents.

Mark Ames

Wonder how much that explains Boric's reaction to the vote

Gerhard Stoltz

From the sound of it it seems like I'd rather blow the dust off HBO's "The Second Civil War" from '97 than watch the new Hollywood take on the same. At least TSCW has a sense of humor about it!

Ben

Not related to this ep at all but I’d be curious to hear John’s take on Robert Musil’s “The Man Without Qualities” eerily prescient book to be reading while living in the west rn

Michael S. Judge

Thank god, speaking from Missouri, for someone finally acknowledging that THREE BILLBOARDS was dogshit. Catholicism aside, you know what people in rural Missouri don't do, have never done, and never will do? Talk in snappy patter. You'd get your shit stomped in for saying any 5 lines from that movie in real life

Michael S. Judge

John, vocal fry is the thing where you intentionally speak in a croak from the back of your throat, often as a sign of exasperation, like somebody croaking out "oh my goddddddd" when they miss a flight or can't get a taxi, etc. The Kardashian tribe seem to speak in it like 70% of the time. The thing you're talking about is this intentionally affectless form of audible parenthesis that was popularized as a way for characters to comment upon the film/TV show by the demon Joss Whedon, who's directly responsible for nearly all the disgusting "clever" dialogue written in the last 20 years

Michael Schworetzky

Machado was barred from running because she’d tried to overthrow the government. I think that makes it at least a little different from Putinism. As for the release of polling station level data, you’re acting as though Lula is contradicting Maduro in calling for it to be released. He’s not: Maduro has repeatedly said it will be. Maybe you think he’s lying, and that the claim of a cyber attack on the CNE is a cover for election theft. I strongly doubt it, since elections in Venezuela are audited by each party at every polling location, and multiple paper duplicates exist. If Maduro thinks he can just drag it out forever without releasing the data, he’s insane. The Supreme Court has ordered the release of the data and proof of the cyber attack within three days. If there is a plot to just keep kicking the can down the road, the Chavistas who run the Supreme Court apparently didn’t get the memo! But we will see, I suppose. I certainly hope Maduro is not trying to steal the election. Things will get very bad if that’s the case.

David Andrews

Not your best episode, guys. I come here to learn things and for entertaining banter. This show presented neither.

Nosreffej

I agree. In any type of civil war the pigs and prison guards would be hand-and-hand with the fascist, violent gangs. The article is chilling.

Nosreffej

Ben Norton's Geopolitical Economy Reports that the Carter Center is funded by the US State Department, USAID, Meta, Palentir, Freedom House, the EU, UK, Belgium, Germany, Canada, Australia, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the UAE. https://youtu.be/1KCDj-alHbg?feature=shared

CR

"“I’m looking for someone who shares my values” and “firmly supports the language issue,” she said, noting that both her grandparents had taken part in Ukraine’s pro-independence nationalist movements in the 1940s." NYT not finding neo-Nazis, even in a fucking puff piece like this challenge. https://archive.ph/mqcn4#selection-4885.0-4888.0

Quinn

460 episodes with 1 you didnt like is a pretty good track record champ

Mark Ames

Michael, AFAIK Caracas still hasn't released the full vote data. Lula, Petro and AMLO are still not acknowledging Maduro victory. They're trying to do something constructive by talking to both sides; they're not saying "fraud" and they're not saying "valid". Seems to me a smart approach, because if Maduro's people are hiding something, you want Venezuelans to resolve it rather than Tony fucking Blinken, and you most definitely don't want to help fan a civil war. The fact that they still haven't released the full vote data is not a good sign.

AG

A comment since you mentioned Machado's father being a steal magnate. I heard from Venezuelan inlaws, who are all conservatives, that Venezuela had the second largest steel company in the world until it was nationalized by the Chavez gov. and 'run into the ground by poor management. '

AG

Maybe they could share the results for the world to see.

Magic Mikey

Mark talks big about the corruption of journalism but keeps falling for their lies, eg the above, nordstream, bucha.

Magic Mikey

The movie is a lot more politically radical than is appreciated. There are no good guys, the guys in the Hawaiian shirts are just as bad as the "trumpians" - they literally conduct war crimes by massacring POW's in plain sight.

G

Or the way Finnish people speak