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Radio War Nerd EP #462 — Operation Bagration, Pt. 3: Wehrmacht Terror & Collapse, feat. Annibale (Patreon)

Published:
2024-08-13 14:46:11
Imported:
2024-08
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Guest: Annibale

Recorded: August 9, 2024

Part 3 of our series on Operation Bagration with Annibale. This episode: gruesome Wehrmacht experiments in Belarus, including "deadzones" and the Ozarichi human typhus-bombs, fail to stop the Soviet Army and Jewish-Belorussian communist partisans from decimating the retreating Nazis.

Check out Annibale's Operation Bagration Part 1 and Part 2 (episodes 453 & 454)

 Books cited:-If Not Now, When? by Primo Levi-The Soviet Occupation of Germany: Hunger, Mass Violence and the Struggle for Peace, 1945–1947, by Filip Slaveski-Sergeant in the Snow, by Mario Rigoni Stern

*Map

Music interlude by Brendon Anderegg. Check out music from his group Mountains here

Total time: 1:55:25

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here

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Subscribe to Radio War Nerd at patreon.com/radiowarnerd

Sound production by Telescope Audio

Check out the Radio War Nerd Merch store here!

Order your print or ebook of John Dolan's new book Erdogan Pizza: Dispatches from a Violent & Grotesque World

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Comments

Alberto Panerai

Fuck yeah! At this point we need a sequel episode: Warsaw Uprising and Vistula-Oder offensive. Annibale is great!

Al Goehring

amici in ascolto un cordiale buongiorno

Ander Pierce

Regarding @47:00 the biological concentration camp honeypots: I'm not exactly known for my tolerance towards Nazism or fascists, but nonetheless these details fill me with a deep seated rage and vindication at the destruction of the whole Nazi experiment. Fuck these guys God damn.

cstenzy

I'm expecting 'When Titans Clashed' 2nd edition in the mail today, really looking forward to it

Isaac Suárez

Great episode- I really appreciate the discussion of Jewish resistance to the Wehrmacht in Belarus. There’s a pretty solid Daniel Craig movie about one of these partisans “Defiance” but, aside from this, there is no acknowledgement of these events. Hell, the Sobibor uprising, where a Jewish Communist Red Army officer, Alexander Pechersky, successfully broke out of the death camp (more than 100 people escaped- 50 survived the war and testified about the death camp) warrants its own movie. As someone of Jewish descent, whose family converted long ago, this discussion really resonated. My ancestors did not die, they didn’t cease to exist (on the contrary, they did very well by assimilating)- yet many Jewish institutions act like they did. I’m proud of that ancestry, and wish more attention was paid to the millions of folks who chose life over faith. Thanks again!

CR

I keep meaning to ask: Is it accurate that either when the war began, or maybe in total, that only ten percent of the Wehrmacht was mechanized? And almost all of that was the panzer armies because outside of that there was no oil and gas, and the Luftwaffe needed it more than boots and hooves on the ground.

CR

And fuck the lies that there were any good Wehrrmacht

CR

First as tragedy, then as farce.

William

First as tragedy then as FART amirite!?!

MoldyTolge

Annibale and all Italo-Nerds: I will be visiting Tuscany and Genoa soon. Do you have any novels or memoir recommendations? I was considering bringing The Sergeant in the snow but I figured I’d try to draw upon the collected knowledge of the War Nerd community.

Rudy

I want to respect Annibale’s anonymity, but if he’s ever written any books, I’m also really interested in reading them!

Jack Sylvia

Came here to mention defiance. Great movie and a true story, yet somewhat of a box office flop.. seems like the wider audience wasn’t ready to see Jews fighting back, allying with the Soviets to defeat the Nazis

Leland Alvarado

Could someone spell the name of the camp Annibale mentions around minute 44? I am having trouble finding it and I know I must have misspelled it.

Gengeros

Hey annibale, any chance you can continue your eastern front series with episodes on the courland pocket, Kuban bridgehead, Crimea, etc.?

Michael Conlin-Elsen

Italo Calvino's book "Road to San Giovanni" has some stories about his youth in San Remo during fascist times. There is one story about his participation in a partisan battle against Italian collaborators to capture a town. He is my favorite author.

drizzly_november

I liked Defiance a lot but it really illustrates Mark's point about Western audiences not knowing what to make of Jewish partisans' connection to the Soviets. Iirc, the Liev Schreiber brother leaves the family encampment after a spat with Daniel Craig and joins a group of Soviet partisans, who he thinks will really bring the fight to the Nazis. It does show some alliance between the Jewish and Soviet partisans, but takes pains to show them as boorish anti-Semites who simply see an opportunity. Before the climatic battle, the Soviets back out, so Liev deserts to fight alongside his family and community. The ending title cards mention that the sweet Jamie Bell brother later dies as a Red Army soldier, but leaves it at that. Ultimately a good movie, but it's very uncomfortable with the Soviet thing.

Michael Conlin-Elsen

Just found out he also wrote a book called "Into the War" which I haven't read yet. Memoirs of his life as a communist partisan.

Moctezuma

Love at the start of the episode that we get a very blithe mention of a potential forth coming Russian offensive into the North of Ukraine. Would you care to expand on the morality of that lads? Or whether you think it's a good idea? Would that be for domestic consumption and for Russia's allies? Would there be people in other countries 'elite' classes cheering it on and writing op eds in favour of it? You've stated previously you think the whole invasion is a war crime akin to the US invasion of Iraq, is this still the case? Is Ukraine allowed to defend itself at this juncture or is that just gauche? I'm seriously finding your whole approach to talking about the conflict utterly tedious, there are no goodies and baddies, every nation's upper hierarchy is out for itself whether that is poisonous autocratic hyper capitalists or corrupted democracies with external meddling. I think the next time I hear Mark blather on about how the entirety (or at least a chunk) of the Ukraine's forces are a load of Nazi's while not mentioning once the Russian militaries deep ties to it's own ethno nationalist headbangers I may yawn my head off. Change the tune the record player seems to have got stuck in a groove.

a clash of purple

I feel like the Nazi hatred for Jews often overshadows their hatred for Slavs, which was possibly even more intense than their anti-Semitism. I guess the sad truth is that, for now at least, hating Slavs is a perfectly acceptable mainstream attitude in the Anglo world.

a clash of purple

I wouldn't say there are "no goodies and baddies." It's more like both sides are bad, one side is morally justified to defend itself, and the best anyone can hope for is that the killing stops as soon as possible. And in Ames's defense, if you want to hear (perfectly true) things about how bad the Russian regime is, the entirety of Western media is happy to tell you all about it. I think it's worthwhile for RWN to spend their own time discussing the gross nationalists in Ukraine who NATO is training and arming with no popular mandate.

a clash of purple

Sad to say, it's not that the whole Nazi experiment was destroyed, it's more accurate to say that it was assimilated by the victors. The Allies and the Soviets went to a great deal of trouble to recruit as many of these monsters as they could spirit away from the gallows and the firing squads. I know Mike Judge is in the RWN Patreon comments; he can speak on that. Point being, the ruling classes all over the world are all sickos. The Nazis are only unique in that Germany was called out on some of their atrocities, to an extent.

Moctezuma

Aye, fair enough, I guess I'm just not consuming much of that stuff so it feels a bit jarring

Annibale

If John and Mark agree, why not?

Annibale

Oh yeah. It's actually one of the big point of contention in the current Russian debate on lend-lease

Chubby Justin

Ukraine is the most starship troopers ass country in the news

Mark Ames

Indeed it's very suspicious that I, in an episode about the Eastern Front and Nazi war crimes, should point out Ukraine is today invading a part of Russia covered in our shows using battalions named after WW2 Nazis and Nazi collaborationists, armed and supported by my government. You deflecting & running cover for Ukrainian nationalists' creepy Nazi worship by demanding I performatively repeat my denunciations of Russia's invasion is, on the other hand, totally "moral."

Magic Mikey

What are you supposed to do if through accident if birth you're a male of military age in the third Reich? Many soldiers had as little choice as those poor bastards they're press ganging in Ukraine today. Doesn't mean they're not responsible for any crimes they participate in, but "there but for the grace of God go I" is a good phrase to remember

Ander Pierce

The realities of conscription aren't lost on me, but nonetheless pretty happy the Nazi state was crushed so thoroughly. FAFO

Moctezuma

Mark you talk about this rancid stuff in every episode. I get it, the audience gets it, we know about it . I love the show, but that radio war nerd bingo card thing that got circulated a while back wasn't a million miles off.

Moctezuma

Also I'm not really running cover or deflecting for Ukraine, I'm just a div sat in my underwear listening to one of my favourite podcasts and getting bored with the same repeated chat. As another responder to my post relayed it might be because the rest of the airwaves and column inches are filled with Ukrainian puff pieces, which you may be more exposed to, but I'm not really consuming that stuff so every time I hear about it it's basically nazi equivocation of Ukraine forces. I'll hold my hands up if every single one of their units are goosestepping around like a gang of fannies, but is this the case? I got the impression from your earlier episodes that prior to the recent conflicts the two nations/populaces got on ok and while there was always an undertow of this stuff in Ukrainian society maybe there has been a cultural move towards a more widespread valorisation of WW2 fascists who fought the Soviets (including all the ghoulish stuff they got up to), as part of the enmity created by the conflict? Anyway I love the podcast, hope you and John keep up the great work

Annibale

There's absolutely zero evidence (notwithstanding much protestation of the contrary) that there was ANY kind of threat or "duress" against German soldier who were reluctant to partecipate to war crimes. In fact those who didn't feel like we're given plenty of alternatives by their commanders. The only pressure was social (i.e. peer pressure) as people who didn't partecipate in atrocities was often considered "weak" by their comrades. But there was no disciplinary threat involved

etienne

it must suck so bad to be jewish and do Rambo type shit against nazis and then live on in the USSR god damn

CR

Always was

JoR

Has there been any success potentially getting a guest who can speak on the Congo, specifically the Second Congo War? I know that's a lot to ask, but it's by far the biggest war not fully covered on the show yet.

Mark Ames

It’s a worse problem than mere online flamewarring between annoying nafoids and putinoids. Aside from my own problem with my government arming and funding Nazis & our otherwise sanctimonious media class approving and valorizing nazis, Ukraine is fucked for years because we encouraged nazis and ultranationalists for our own purposes, as have the western-backed liberal comprador class. I have talked far less about this problem than I should, and I will try to do an ep going deeper into this story in the near future.

Tom Warner

the one book about the Congo wars I read, which seemed pretty good to me (a dummy), was by a Jason K Stearns - not that this is a particularly informed opinion but that's my suggestion for a guest

Gengeros

Why? Antisemitism was punishable by death under Lenin and Stalin (it changed under Khrushchev)

Hans Anders

Really appreciate the discussion on the Home Army uprising. It was in the news lately because of an anniversary. It smelled like a Cold War propaganda story then, and it’s good to hear the accurate version from you guys.

Terry Dunk

This is the Arno Mayer thesis for which he got a lot of stick back in the day, i.e. that anti-semitism was to a substantial degree secondary or down-stream from anti-Bolshevism. Of course, Bolshevism was racialized and the Slavic-Jewish-Bolshevik triad was all bound up together in complicated ways.

Terry Dunk

Not to dogpile but I think the point is that while Russia and Ukraine both have relatively small Nazi sects, only in Ukraine do they have significant, outsized influence in government and the military. Groups like Rusich in Russia are marginal and totally subordinate to the MoD or whomever the case may be. As Ames has pointed out, though, far from de-nazifying Ukraine, the rising star of Ukrainian neo-Nazism was substantially boosted by Putin's invasion. And yeah, as an American, the glorification and mystification of these neo-Nazi elements in the military comes thick and fast every single day in the mainstream press, so it's worth pushing back against as much as possible.

etienne

okay look I don't know a whole lot about it here but do you really want me to believe that the place that had whole polemic about "rootless cosmopolitans" and "doctor's plot" is not antisemitic?

Terry Dunk

I'm afraid that dubious distinction has to be given Israel, but Ukraine is certainly in the running.

Jimmy B

Annibale’s unremarked upon Big Lebowski reference tho 💯

K

I'd love to hear an episode on Andersonville if you guys ever get the chance. I get chills when I hear about the place as I hold a personal connection. If my 3rd great grandfather didn't survive his 9 months there I wouldn't be here. And so it reminds me of why men, many of whom actually have things like families and property to lose, are willing to make grand sacrifices for abstract ideals and to realize their historical agency. As they did in the Civil War and so too as they did against the Nazis. My 3rd great grandfather was an Irish immigrant who left around the potato famine and settled in Michigan. And then, for whatever reason, in his early 30s, and with a young family, he joined the 20th Michigan infantry regiment at its foundation in August 1862. He didn't have to do that. He had made it in America and had a family depending on him. He had escaped the feudal oppression of Ireland and the potato famine and had made his new life. I figure maybe he had been offered a nice bit of money in those days, or he held grudges from the famine against the Anglo aristocracy. Or maybe he had some romantic idealism about abolitionism. Probably a combination. Who knows why Irish immigrants joined. I can't really say. I've only seen one piece of writing from him in a local paper advert from the late 1800s vouching for a snake-oil charm for health issues he developed at Andersonville. But I like to imagine he and others joined because there really was a lot of hatred of the institution of slavery among those who remembered the potato famine. After all, he already had a family depending on him when he enlisted. And supposedly Andersonville prisoners would sing "John Brown's Body" to keep their spirits high and give purpose for their dying and suffering. But they also beat and stole from one another... My 3rd great grandfather's regiment participated to varying degrees in some of the worst battles of the war from Fredericksburg to Vicksburg to Grant's bloody Virginia campaign. The regiment suffered ~15% casualties in a charge at Spotsylvania. And then he got captured a few weeks later at Cold Harbor in June 1864. And then he spent 9 months in Andersonville until the war ended. Irish luck. Apparently after the war he kept in touch with his regiment, went to reunions, and had some pictures of comrades he lost. He suffered scurvy, and developed eczema and rheumatism at Andersonville. Those issues persisted through his life. One of the senior officers of the regiment wrote a regimental memoir now accessible in PDF through the library of congress. I imagine a lot of regiments had this sort of thing.

Annibale

Apologies for this very belated reply, I was convinced I had already answered. The percentage varied during the war, much smaller when Barbarossa began and higher in 1945. Still, indeed, only a tiny fraction of the Wehrmacht was mechanized, and this, indeed, was limited to Panzer divisions and "motorized" divisions. However, at Barbarossa's time, with 154 divisions committed to the 22 June 1941 invasion, 19 were PzDivs and 14 Motdivs. PzDivs had varied but substantial mechanized/motorized support, but Motdics were mainly based on wheeled transportation with minimal offroad capacity. Hitler had launched a complete mechanization program with half-track troop transports, but the German industry did not have the structure and capacity to provide it. Also, Germany had in 1941 a real problem with trained drivers. The result was that for most of the war, German infantry was horse-bound, a mobility problem exacerbated by the death of thousands of transport horses who didn't survive epidemics and the Soviet winter.

Scott S.

Annibale has one of the epic names. I would not name my child that but a great nom de guerre.