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Radio War Nerd EP #94 — Romance of the Three Kingdoms, with Carl Zha (Patreon)

Published:
2017-07-25 20:26:15
Edited:
2018-09-19 13:44:26
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

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Content

Guest: Carl Zha

The War Nerd brings back our popular west coast wn guest Carl Zha to talk about the great Chinese war epic, Romance of the Three Kingdoms — the 14th century novel by Luo Guanzhong, and said to be one of Mao's favorite novels during his guerrilla years. The novel tells the story of chaos, divisions and betrayals in the late Han Empire era in the second and third centuries AD — and it's been the basis for countless retellings, online games, graphic comix and more. Carl talks about the context, history, and stories behind the three main characters and their rival kingdoms, and how they fit into Chinese history and politics. . . .

Afterwards, the War Nerd and Ames — both at various stages of lung fluid sickness — talk about a New Republic article attacking Radio War Nerd as part of a "dirtbag left" movement, and the War Nerd's response . . . We also discuss problems in the shaky anti-Qatar coalition, CIA cutting off their "moderate" Al Qaeda militias, and more bad history from the Democratic Party brain trust . . . 

Total time: 2:47:25

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here 

Update: Carl posted some images with captions of old Chinese comic book illustrations depicting the Romance of the Three Kingdoms here.

Files

Comments

Tupac Chopra

Carl, can you recommend a good survey book on Chinese history in English? There is so much to learn.

Carl Zha

Cartoon history of the universe by Larry Gonic is a good start

Richard Kim

Some fun facts about the novel itself: The Romance of the Three Kingdom that most moderners are aware of is actually an edited version of the original Ming-dynasty text made by Mao Lun and his son, Mao Zonggang, during the Qing dynasty. Mao’s edition is noted for carrying a more pro-Shu/Liu Bei, anti-Cao/Wei bias, and some scholars have argued that this was motivated by their sympathies for Ming loyalists during the early Qing dynasty, though this argument is certainly not without its detractors. An easy way to tell between the versions is by the number of chapters and the opening line. Luo Guanzhong’s Ming-dynasty version has 240 chapters, as opposed to 120 chapters in Mao’s version. The iconic line, “The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide,” is also unique to Mao’s version. While the original-version of the novel is actually not available in English to my knowledge, Moss Roberts’ non-abridged translation of the novel points out some key differences between the two version. In modern Japan, novelist Yoshikawa Eiji’s version of the tale has become the most popular, and this version has elements of both the Ming and Qing dynasty version, as well as some unique innovations such as beginning the novel with a scene in which Liu Bei waits by the Yellow river for a merchant ship to buy tea for his mother. Because of Japan’s great pop culture influence, his version of Romance of the Three Kingdoms has gone on to influence how the novel is known in Korea to the point that many Koreans have no idea that the opening scene of Liu Bei buying tea for his mother is a modern, 20th century addition by a Japanese novelist!

BY

@Carl Zha what about something a little more serious/meatier?

xnfec

The version I heard was that you cannot make good iron from a rusty nail or a good man from a soldier.

xnfec

I liked the film Hero though in the back of my mind I always had the impression that it might be propaganda - though I could never figure out what it was supposed to be selling. I thought it was an odd film. All the principal characters were Heroic in the abstract, as was the central theme of the big idea of world conquest being held back and stopping at the unification of China. One big oddity was that there are almost no ordinary people in the film (apart from the early scene in the chess house). The king wanted to pardon the hero because he understands him but is overwhelmed by tradition and forced to execute him. Tradition being represented by the imperial bureaucracy and seen as a black wave engulfing the palace. A good counterpoint to the film I found was Chen Kaige's Emperor and the Assassin which told a similar story and had much more interesting characters and took much more care of the background. My favourite scene is at the end when the assassin's accomplice panics and the assassin is suddenly revealed as a consumate actor. Both directors were involves with Gong Li though I don't know if that had any influence on either film.

Tupac Chopra

Thanks for the recommendation Carl, though I second BY's comment on something meatier. Something like a university-level textbook for an introductory survey course in Chinese history taught by a well-read professor is the level where I am aiming.

Carl Zha

Why Yellow Turban Rebels wear Yellow and Red Turbans wear Red? To answer Gary Brecher 's question on latest Radio War Nerd episode on Romance of the Three Kingdoms, I looked up the answer. 5 colors represents 5 elements in Chinese thoughts. Each Imperial dynasty is represented by its own element. Before 1st (Western or Former) Han dynasty was usurped by minister Wang Mang, the idea was Han dynasty (Earth) --overcame--> Qin (Water)-->Zhou(Fire)-->Shang(Metal)-->Xia(Wood)-->Yellow Emperor(Earth). After Wang Mang usurpation, he changed the scheme to be dynasty element succeeding/generating each other, so Yellow Emperor(Earth)--generates-->Xia(Metal)-->Shang(Water)-->Zhou(Wood)--> Han (Fire). According to the new scheme, next dynasty (Earth) will succeed Han(Fire), and Earth associated color is Yellow. Rebels of Taiping Dao (The way of Great Peace) adopted Yellow as their sacred color because they intend to replace Han Dynasty. BY wearing Yellow do-rag on their heads, they became known as Yellow Turban Rebels. Before Mongol conquest of China, last Chinese dynasty is Song (Fire, color Red). Mongol found Yuan dynasty didn't bother with officially naming an element because Mongol rulers didn't have time to acculturate to Chinese culture before Yuan dynasty collapsed in rebellion. Buddhist White Lotus Sect and Manichaenism influenced Rebels sought to restore Song dynasty (Fire, color Red), so they wear Red scarves on their heads, became known as Red Turban Rebellion. Former Red Turban rebel Zhu Yuanzhang found the new dynasty the Great Ming (Great Brightness, echo of its Manichaen roots). Ming has been associated with Fire. Manchu found the state of Daicing which in Manchu language meant the Warrior State. But when Manchu transcribe the name of their new state into Chinese, they chose Great Qing The character Qing (清) is composed of "water" (氵) and "azure" (青), both associated with the water element. Because Water defeats Fire, as Qing would conquer Ming. Hope that helps!

Carl Zha

yes, that's it! I have written about it in comments below, take a look. you might want to refer back to chart in the Wiki!

Richard Kim

For people who don't mind reading more than one book, I'd highly recommend the History of Imperial China series, which are 6 books (each around ~300 pages) that separately cover the main periods of Imperial China. Of course, since it’s only imperial China, it skips over the Zhou dynasty, which in many ways is a formative period for Chinese intellectual history. Alternatively, the Cambridge history series is always a good start. Each ~700 page volume gives a detailed overview of each period, so this option is for people who like doing A LOT of reading.

Richard Kim

While the Moss Roberts translation really should be the starting point for any English-speaker getting into Romance of the Three Kingdoms, for people who can’t seem to make it past the first few chapters without getting hopelessly lost in the jumble of names, you may find it easier to first approach it through it's adaptations in pop-culture. The two best “straight” adaptations I’ve personally seen are the “Three Kingdoms (San guo),” a Chinese TV series made in 2010, and the Japanese comic “Sangokushi,” which was serialized in the 70s and 80s. Of the two, the comic book is surprisingly more faithful to the novel, but both are more than adequate for understanding the major characters, battles, and events. Thanks to the huge Romance of the Three Kingdoms fandom, these two long adaptations have surprisingly been fully translated into English, which is also why I recommend them. For the 2010 TV series, you can watch it all on youtube here: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNHnX4xsplo&list=PL33A390995E9A7F00" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNHnX4xsplo&list=PL33A390995E9A7F00</a> For the Japanese comic, you can read it all here: <a href="http://kissmanga.com/Manga/sangokushi" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://kissmanga.com/Manga/sangokushi</a>

Avery

I guess that means it will be green/wood that will replace the CCP. I'll be on the lookout, although it probably won't happen in my lifetime.

Andrew Rego

This was a great episode. Thank you!

Alexius

I have to say, I am really enjoying all of the Carl Zha episodes. The fact that he has read the historical manuscripts and can describe them in such an interesting way really brings this history to life. There is a historical youtuber from Italy who does this kind of thing with Roman history whose work I really enjoy. His YouTube channel is called Metatron. Would be really incredible if you guys could interview him about history of the Roman Empire at some point.

radiowarnerd

Thanks Richard. I posted this comment to my facebook page. Hope that is OK.

Carl Zha

Richard Kim made great recommendation about the Japanese comic and 2010 Chinese TV series. I would also like to recommend the all time classic 1994 Chinese TV series. For couple generations of Chinese people, this was the golden standard of faithful novel adaptation. The veteran actors who portrayed Lu Bu, Zhuge LIang, Liu Bei, Guan Yu Cao Cao so well that their version became what Chinese people think of those characters. Also 2010 TV series skipped the 1st 3 chapters of the book, so I highly recommend also give 1994 TV series a look: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyS1CuUiPno&list=PLt_NpcBCJbEioqXfzEQf1HPs5JdsHr6Zc" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyS1CuUiPno&list=PLt_NpcBCJbEioqXfzEQf1HPs5JdsHr6Zc</a>

xnfec

I have this on VCD, purchased many moons ago in Malaysia. The english subtitles leave something to be desired but it is immensely watchable nevertheless. It slows down towards the end and I struggled with it once Zhuge Liang succumbed to time.

lopakdesbandhu@gmail.com

Hey War Nerd, any upcoming episode on Indo-China kerfuffle and issue of Dolam, Bhutan?

Tupac Chopra

Carl, I'm working my way through Red Cliff parts I and II and it is an amazing adaption of that part of ROTTK. Is there something similar for "Journey to the West"? Wikipedia says that there are a number of more recent movie adaptations, but I don't know which would be the most entertaining/most faithful to the original. Any thoughts?

Carl Zha

The most entertaining "Journey to the West" Movie adaptation would be Steven Chow's series. Not Faithful but Great! Steven Chow's "A Chinese Odyssey" Part1 and 2 are classic comedic take on the story (Do NOT watch Part 3, because it's not Steven Chow). His latest "Journey to the West" movie much darker but just as glorious. I have only seen "Journey to the West: Conquering the Demons" Have not yet seen the sequel "Journey to the West: The Demons Strike Back". Most faithful adaptation would the oldie 1986 Chinese TV Series which is on Youtube with English subtitles : <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b3kSLuPZy8&list=PLxkZFUplOyWlT7_aZzN5xxxjx-sHFKbMX" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b3kSLuPZy8&list=PLxkZFUplOyWlT7_aZzN5xxxjx-sHFKbMX</a>