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Radio War Nerd EP #98 — American Nazis from Oregon to Charlottesville (Patreon)

Published:
2017-08-21 23:26:54
Edited:
2017-08-29 21:04:21
Imported:
2026-06

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Content

Guest: Jason Wilson, Guardian columnist & journalist

DUNEDIN, NEW ZEALAND — Our first ever guest, journalist Jason Wilson (Episode #15), joins the War Nerd to talk about what he personally witnessed at the Nazi march in Charlottesville, why it's a real problem, and how it compares to the Oregon Standoff in January 2016 when armed mostly-Mormon anti-government radicals seized federal land and became a cause-celebre for right-wing militias. Wilson has been tracking the growth of the US far-right ever since, and he talks with us about the surprising numbers, organizational strength and strategies of American Nazis and far-right militias today...

Afterwards, the Nerd and Ames discuss the recent spate of Islamic State-inspired terror attacks in Spain, Finland and Surgut in western Siberia.

Total time: 2:50:23 

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here 

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Comments

Dave Foley

This should absolutely be public if its not.

arametha

Seconding calls to make this public. I stopped my normal multitasking after the first hour to fully absorb this discussion.

Hanso

I'm sure the resurgent antisemitism is partly thanks to the internet upbringing this generation had. As a reactionary young man with marginalised views, you are given access to a whole world of similar people. Mixing with especially comparable Europeans, it's not tha strange their fascism gets an old school flavour, since those ideas never really died in Europe. There is no such thing as a "white jew" in Europe; no such thing as a "white", I guess.

Crazy B0nkers

I'm not American, and pretty much all I know about the civil war is Ken Burns' documentary. We all know about the Southern brand of far right, etc. But I'm surprised by how quickly ancient anti-confederate rhetoric resurfaced on social media (traitors/trash/slavers/marauders/barbaric/scum). And from the outside looking in, I'm catching the same sort of near-genocidal vibes that would come out of the Balkans or Lebanon. Or maybe it's just me.

James Christensen

I don't think it's much like that. I've never run into a real problem telling people I'm Southern. America's regional divides are real enough, but I don't think any significant number of people would actually kill or die for them. If bloodthirsty anti-Confederate rhetoric (which is not something I would automatically consider bad) does get stupid, it's likely because the speaker's urban snobbery is getting him to insult rural people by proxy.

wearMoniker

Thirding the call to make this episode public. On the topic of the far-right becoming more organized, David Hines had a recent tweetstorm that pitched the idea it was Spencer doing two things: being a networking/training opportunity for Neo-Nazis and being a "proof of concept" public demo to signal the utility of Neo-Nazis to the less fringe-y right. <a href="https://storify.com/sphenoid/charlottesville" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://storify.com/sphenoid/charlottesville</a> He's had a few articles about the topic of how the American right does/doesn't organize, and he's also done some compare and contrast pieces on the left. It's a bit strange, but, as a righty, he's very impressed with the activist left and thinks the right is almost hopelessly inept. He also dips into the "new civil war" rhetoric you discuss in the episode, although his slant it more a return to the early 1970s with lots of domestic unrest. (I tend to feel it won't get "Days of Rage" bad simply because the security services are much more competent nowadays. It's easier to keep a lid on things even if everything heats up to a low boil.)

Keith Rockhold

Just FYI: When he remarks about being gassed, it was likely Bear Repellent pepper spray

Boobs123

That anti-Confederate rhetoric also seems to be blending quite nicely with anti-Russia hysteria to produce a liberal narrative about what Ames called a "reactionary Comintern" in an earlier episode. It's strange to see people I've known and considered friends promote violence and John Birch-level hatred of Russia and ideological opponents as a defense of progressivism and liberal democracy.

Jason Wilson

Ah yes, I hadn't considered that but you are probably quite right. Some of the weapons seemed to put out a greater quantity of gas than consumer grade stuff I have encountered before though

Avery

The "Roundheads vs. Cavaliers" duality still survives today in the South and was very visible among the participants in the Unite the Right rally. They see the Puritans as the poison of the nation (right behind the Jews, I guess) and wreckers of the glorious racial caste system. I'm certainly no fan of Puritans, but the Civil War and Reconstruction are probably among their better legacies.

Keith Rockhold

In the videos from scene, you can see people using Bear Repellent (identifiable by the very large cans)

Jason Wilson

Yep I agree now that you have said it. Definitely saw large cans as you describe. I guess what I am still wondering about is the times they released something that repelled a large group of people for minutes and cleared the immediate area. That happened twice by my count. Presumably even bear mace couldn't do that? Or could it?

Mat K

I wonder how the Antifa can be described as acting defensively when they were attacking the rally? Then when the Alt right guys were kicked out of the park where actively beating them up on their retreat. In what universe were the Antifa less violent, less dangerous or acting defensively? I understand this is a left wing cast but please do not insult reality by talking this kind of crap. The Antifa went there spoiling for a fight knowing their enemies would be there. If the Alt Right did not have any weapons they would have been pounded 6 ways from Sunday. For me this entire thing is an issue of free speech and respect. The Alt Right should be allowed to march and express their opinion. Anyone who attacks them is a criminal. The Alt Left should be allowed to march and express their opinion. Anyone who attacks them is a criminal. Everybody who says that physically attacking someone who has a different opinion than you is OK is the problem.

Mat K

Did uh, did we listen to the same podcast? Because if we did you would have heard an eye witness recount how the Alt right guys were being attacked to prevent them from making it to the park in the first place. He also reports on how the Alt right guys had to make a tortoise to defend themselves from thrown projectiles. How once they had gained the park they were being constantly attacked by Antifa so they had to swing batons to keep them away. These guys where in a place they were allowed to be to perform a protest and act of free speech they were allowed to perform by law. If they were not being attacked, they would have no one to respond against. Then when they were ejected from the park and forced to walk 2 klms to the other park they were all wounded, had to use milk on themselves to recover from pepper spray. To answer your question, no I was not there. But the guest on this podcast who was there reported all of this.

Avery

They didn't have a permit to use the park at the time that they were trying to ram their way into it.

Avery

I don't see any times listed on that page. According to the podcast, all of the fighting around the square happened before the time the rally was actually permitted to start. There is nothing illegal about blocking entrance to a public space (see: anti-Trump demonstrators who blocked public roads).

Jan Meyer

It strikes me that the whole 'it is always Germany 1933' thing is off for these people by about 15 years. It sounds to me more like Germany 1918 on the personal side: Veterans coming home from a war they (subjectivly) lost, to a society not honoring them into a economic crisis seeking solidarity and belonging from a group. That is more or less all German far-right groups, Nazis as well as Stahlhelm circa 1919 to 22.

Charles

The language we use to describe these groups has shifted in various ways. Not so long ago these guys would have been labelled 'Neo-Nazis', but now it's simply 'Nazi'. This intensification of language is suggestive I think.

Mat K

I would think the ACLU has a handle on legal protest ? Check this : Do I have a right to picket on public sidewalks? Yes, and this is also an activity for which a permit is not required. However, picketing must be done in an orderly, non-disruptive fashion so that pedestrians can pass by and entrances to buildings are not blocked. And Do counter-demonstrators have free speech rights? Yes. Although counter-demonstrators should not be allowed to physically disrupt the event they are protesting, they do have the right to be present and to voice their displeasure. Police are permitted to keep two antagonistic groups separated but should allow them to be within the general vicinity of one another. <a href="https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_pdf_file/kyr_protests.pdf" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_pdf_file/kyr_protests.pdf</a>

Mat K

I drop the blame for Trump and the rise of the Alt Right squarely at the feet of Obama. Letting Wall Street off the hook for 2008 was the point where a lot of people realised the centre, institutional democrats and republicans both, did not have their interests at heart. The people with a communist bent went left; the people with an authoritarian bent went right. Bernie and Trump were born. Also add into that mix something about rising income inequality, stagnant wages for 20 years and 8 years of a black president who said all the pretty things whilst doing nothing for real people. Hilary was too bound up with 8 years of failed Obama leadership to have a chance in struggling America. Trump openly rejected Bush and the war in Iraq during the campaign and portrayed himself as an outsider who would “drain the swamp”. Leaving aside he is/was and always shall be full of crap, he at least said the words and did not call real people in real distress deplorable. IF Obama had harnessed the rage of 08 and actually done some good rather than bail out the banks and preside over 8 years of the status quo I reckon Trump would still be a bad joke. (It also did not help that Hilary and the DNC are corrupt to their core and pulled the rug out from under Bernie).

Wyrd

You can not explain the rise of the "armed Nazis" without looking at AntiFa. AntiFa came to America with the same violent "protest" tactics they used in Europe for ages. The problem with that? America HAS an actual hard right that is ready to brawl in the streets and spoiling for a fight. AntiFa with their violent tactics since the inauguration of Trump has given them the excuse they needed and waited for. And that is exactly where we are now. We have Weimar America. Proletarische Volkswehr (well at least they like to think of themselves as proletarians) vs the Free Korps. History might not repeat itself, but it certainly rhymes.

Antoni Gumbau

Hi all. Listened your comments about the attack in Barcelona. I was less than a kilometer there. Just saw the scared and confused face of the tourists and, as you said, an organised chaos in a very European way. The guy dead in the car was a poor fellow who was parking his car and was stabbed by the Las Ramblas terrorist, who put the corpse in the rear sit of the car and escaped with that car. Mood here... Lots of police around. People embracing each other and bringing flowers to remember the fallen. Some wonder why there were no concrete barriers in such an obvious target. And the Catalan police (mossos) are accused by the Spanish Police (Policía Nacional and Guardia Civil) of being marginalised during the investigation. In Ripoll, the place were the terrorist cell members grew, the relatives of the terrorists talk about receiving threats. All was really sad. People of many nationalities were dead. Their bodies were still warm when many started tweeting political messages, some very unfortunate. Specially in Catalonia, as the polítical mood here is controversial (Independence and all that) Very GTA It all. About De la Vega. The Zorro was a De la Vega one. This name is Castillian, not Catalonian.

Antoni Gumbau

And Spain had colonial possesions in Morocco. It had a terrible defeat in 1921 at Annual (like Italy's Adua) with a whole army slaughtered there. There's lot of Moroccan immigration due to the housing Bubble. Most of them became cheap construction workforce. Many blame them that, after the crisis begun, those who remain live thanks to the welfare state (entitlements, pensions...), Which fuels some xenophobe feelings.

Oskaras Funk

So, when are you guys going to get Angela Nagle on for an interview about the whole Alt-right/fascist thing. Seems like a good match :)

Benjamin Glover

Great podcast and a great guest. Glad you made it public. And congrats on making it to NZ. For a moment I was wondering if Europe was going to be some sort of purgatory for you.

Benjamin Glover

Great podcast and a great guest. Glad you made it public. And congrats on making it to NZ. For a moment I was wondering if Europe was going to be some sort of purgatory for you.

radiowarnerd

Thanks! Well, if Italy was a Purgatory it was a durned nice Purgatory--but yeah, it was a nice relief when NZ let us in through immigration with nary a quibble. Not like certain Canadas I could mention.

radiowarnerd

Thanks for the update Antoni. I wondered if the Catalan/Spanish jurisdiction problem contributed to the intel failure, but didn't want to presume after such a bad day.

radiowarnerd

I guess the real difference between the AntiFa and alt-right groups is political power. The far left is completely marginalized in the US. The far right owns the White House and Congress. That's a real difference. There's a similarity in style, but that's only for the tiny minority taking part in this stylized violence. Out there in Pelagic America (as Portis would call it), it's no contest.

radiowarnerd

Personally, I agree. I would have loved to see expensively shod bodies twisting in the wind above Wall Street. But we're supposed to be a war show here. American politics seems to devour a lot of discussions but our show (I'm proud to say) has a world-wide audience and it seems to me that we have a responsibility to talk about all the massive wars outside America that never get their due.

Mat K

Keep doing what your doing guys. I love your work and have been a sub to the cast since the beginning. I just wanted to make the point that I think the only time the right can rise is when the centre is hollowed out and the Democrats have more responsibility for this than anyone.

Wyrd

I think you might have misunderstood my point. It isn't about morality or legitimacy but about the sensibleness of the chosen tactic. You wrote a few times how many Americans are guilty off seeing and trying to understand the whole world in "familiar American terms" and I hope I am myself not guilty of a German/European version of this but I have seen my fair share of AntiFa-violence in my meager 26 years. A fresh example would be the G20 protets in Hamburg which reached a level of public disorder absolutely unheard of over here. There where many, many people carrying the AntiFa-flag (as is the case with every major leftwing protest) who fought the police in scenes that almost looked like civil war. That is most actual "fighting" AntiFa does over here... because we don't have a real hard right. There are a few neo-nazis... a few remaining old-guard "true" nazis and that's it. They can't afford to fight in the streets because they would lose. Lose real bad. If they stick their heads out they get the shit kicked out of them (same applies for every person that is simply labeled a Nazi but that's another can of worms) So AntiFa is used to that. That's how it has been for many, many years. And here in Germany it works. All morality aside it is a winning tactic. But in the US? Not so much. As I said: The US has a hard right. Quite a few people who are willing to fight. Quite a few properly scary people. And those guys have the excuse they need now to form a "militia" to fight against AntiFa. And like the Free Korps of old... I am kind of afraid that they might turn out to be pretty good at it, too.

Matthew Stella

I laughed out loaud at the part where Mark was talking about how Confederates couldn't even get the planter class to contribute any of their property to the war effort. Any recommendations for where I could read more about that?