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Radio War Nerd EP #97 — Thucydides For Dummies (Patreon)

Published:
2017-08-13 18:45:56
Imported:
2026-06

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Content

There's been a lot of middlebrow noise about Thucydides lately—this time it's some theory called "The Thucydides Trap" by a Harvard mandarin named Graham Allison. So the War Nerd and Ames recover the original text on the Pelopponesian Wars, and the lessons it teaches us moderns—starting with the most obvious lesson that the ancient Greeks had absolutely nothing in common with us.

But before discussing Thucydides, we take a long look at the world of wars—from Indonesia Islamists veiling statue of Guan Yu (of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms), to Taliban/IS massacre of Shia in Afghanistan and New York Times threat-hyping Iran, wars in Central African Republic (CAR) and Congo, and more. 

*(Note this episode was recorded Tuesday, August 8, the War Nerd's last episode from Turin, on his way to New Zealand's south island...)

Map of Pelopponesian wars:

Total time: 2:35:56

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here 

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Comments

Richard Kim

A good book to get an idea of why some of the military logic of the Peloponnesian War is inapplicable to the modern age and just how “foreign” the ancient Greeks were in many ways is J.E. Lendon’s Song of Wrath, in which the author argues that war was primarily driven by the ancient Greeks’ concept of “timê” (honour) and “metis” (cunning), rather than the explanation Thucydides tries to sell the reader about a threatened established power and a rising power.

Kevin Hickey

I would pay for radio fishing nerd

jimbo

The "68" in "Hamilton 68" refers to Federalist No. 68, written by Hamilton. There's a bit in it about foreign-controlled presidents: "These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one quarter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union?" Hamilton's answer is to have the president selected by an electoral college of our best and brightest, rather than by the easily swayed rabble. So, the name is a wonkish in-joke on the Russia-Trump hysteria and a signal of support for meritocratic control of public life.

Malcolm Futter

Please can we have another episode with Patrick Cockburn as guest

Christian Walter

Hello all, I have compiled a list of most of the books, movies and articles discussed over the course of Radio War Nerd so far. Any comments and additions welcome. Hope some will find it of use. --- took down the link - is on facebook now

Fire, Fury and Drones

Nice! I was also thinking lately that we should make an index of sorts, where it's easy to browse the topics discussed on RWN. Say, 38:45 episode whatever #The Iraq War, 1:52:01 #Bosnian Air BnB, etc. What do you think? Perhaps somebody already filed this?

Christian Walter

Thx. Not that I know of. I would be possible to add stuff to my list as a category "topics" or "insights". But I doubt I have time for this. I made the list for myself as a resource and thought maybe others would like to have it too. I'll keep adding stuff from my notes or if anybody drops a comment on the document. And I'll repost the link here every other episode as long as Messers Ames and Dolan tolerate it.

DH

Can I suggest always starting with the main topic (eg Thucydides) and always ending with the "current affairs" wrap up? I'm a new subscriber and I'm loving catching up on old episodes but it's difficult to find where the topic starts unless you lead off with it (eg #56 The Sikhs). The wrap up is great when it's current, but less so a year later.

Rishi

Hi Christian, I have taken the liberty to repost your link on the Gary Brecher Facebook page. Thank you for your service!

Joel

The Thucydides Trap reminds me of Mark's book on Peep Show, "The Business Secrets of the Pharaohs". "The first thing to note when discussing the business secrets of the Pharaohs is an acknowledgement that their era was so completely different from our own that almost all cultural, political and particularly business parallels we draw between the two eras are, by their very nature, bound to be wrong."

Tupac Chopra

If you could maintain a running list of the Episodes that would be an amazing contribution, even if you don't have time to upload the notes. I think we should also try to collectively convince Mark and John to use some of their War Nerd booty to make transcriptions of episodes. Facebook keeps advertising the service for $1/hr on my feed, though I don't know the quality.

Christian Walter

I'll just keep adding books and movies that are mentioned on the show. And if anybody sees omissions just drop a comment and I'll add it. That much I can do without much hassle. Everything else...well, I've seen too much online enthusiasm to commit to anything right now ;)

Rishi

If possible can you friend Gary Brecher on FB or start a thread there so all the enthu folks can share their episode notes

Factory Troll

Many episodes have that information in their description. Being consistent on that in future shows should solve such an inconvenience rather easily I reckon. I like it when they kick it off with a world-of-wars roundup, and then delve a little deeper into the main topic. Just a personal preference. Guess its practical to start with the interviewees most of the time.

DH

Yeah, if they always put that information in the description then it wouldn't be a problem

michiganpizza

great episode. but as before, much less about sleazy pundits and more about wars please.

realBriannaWu

I like hearing about sleazy pundits.

putzen

Yes, more about sleazy pundits, please. Love hearing the inside baseball. Perhaps some discussion about the recent Grayzone (completely justified) hit piece on "friend of the show" Mikhail Weiss next week? It'd be a great excuse to get Max back on!

Kevin Hickey

I think someone (not me) should start a subreddit for RWN to address all and sundry suggestions listed above

Christian Walter

I normally try to stay away from Zuck's platform. But I have created a facebook account under the label Christ War (which I thought was funny, but could be badly misinterpreted, coming to think of it). I send out a friend request to the Gary Brecher Facebook page. If I get accepted I repost there.

Kevin McHugh

there is one, though it's moribund

Kevin McHugh

Am I remembering correctly that John once got the plague? Can anyone remind me if and when he talked about that on the podcast or if I'm thinking of someone else?

xnfec

Corinth was the only city that the Romans razed apart from Carthage

Rishi

You are in!

Hanso

The Iranians ARE supporting the Hazara, on the side. Their Fatimeyoun Brigade in Syria will certianly return wkth alot of useful expertise... it could turn out as the basis of a future, aghan, hezbolmah-style militia. Also, shia identity wouldn't necessarily mean an entirely hostile attitude towards everything "Taliban". That word is a simplistic one to begin with(much like Kissingers "shia crescent"), and blinds one to the complexities of the movement. "Taliban" makes it sound like monolithic, ideological organisation, which distracts from the fact that it has been used by westerners to summarise a conglomerate of pashtun rebel groups. Very likely that some of their local warlords are willing to compromise with the shia, still others inerested in russians cash, and so on.

Hanso

... and other commanders willing to work with some IS fanboys, for local reasons or whatever. You have to drop the idea that "Taliban" is a more specific term than, say, "Syrian moderates". It's been a long war, and theyre no longer an "Emirate", as they used to (esp since Mullah Omars death).

radiowarnerd

Good point. Amal Saad just posted an FB comment making a similar point about divisions among Iraqi/Lebanese/Iranian Shia groups in the Syrian war: "The recent Iraqi campaign against Hizbullah for its deal with ISIS to relocate to Deir Ez-Zour, close to Iraq's border with Syria, is instructive. I am less interested in how absurd the Iraqi argument is (as Nasrallah pointed out, it's a transfer within Syria territory rather than one from Lebanon to Iraq) than its implications. The alliance will obviously outlive this transient discord, but it reveals 2 important points: 1) Not all partnerships are created equal within the "Resistance Axis": Hizbullah's organic relationship with Iran is by far the closest bilateral relationship within the Axis, and its long-standing relationship with secular Syria is clearly stronger than its more recent partnership with its religious Shia counterparts in Iraq. Nasrallah himself once referred to Iraq and Yemen as recent additions to the pre-existing Resistance Axis, while a Hizbullah official once told me that it considers the PMU and not the Iraqi state per se, part of the Res. Axis. That Nasrallah had to remind Iraqi political forces of Hizbullah's and Syria's contributions and commitment to the fight against the takfiris in his statement yesterday highlights the more tenuous links it has with Iraq. 2) Abadi's political calculations aside, the participation of Iraqi PMU groups in this campaign such as the Iran-backed Asaib ahl al-Haq militia, who recently mocked Hizbullah on Twitter for releasing the ISIS terrorists in "green buses" as opposed to finishing them off, reveals how these tensions now cut across the Sunni-Shia divide, the Iraqi govt-PMU divide and the Iran-backed/Iraq-backed PMU divide. In short, much like Moqtada Sadr's recent departure from the Resistance Axis, these "Iraq first" tendencies no longer fit neatly or easily into the Sunni-Shia warfare narrative. For all their Shia religious slogans, the Iraqi Shia's frenzied response to some 300 takfiris moving close to their borders, proves that the war with the takfiris is so visceral an existential conflict that it even transcends the shared existential threat the region's Shia collectively face. This is indeed a war for survival where even the most principled of alliances, along with basic strategic thinking, can be [temporarily] cast aside."

radiowarnerd

You know that song, "They Had It Coming" from Chicago?

radiowarnerd

Ooh! ooh! My chance to shine! I've never had plague (AFIK) but I DID have genuine buboes.I had a soft tissue infection picked up in Nana, in Bangkok--possibly the only infection ever picked up in Nana through the skin of a cut on the ankle rather than the usual Nana orifices--and it got much worse when we flew home to Vancouver. We took the ferry to the Island and tried to camp overnight. I woke up in a collapsed tent with the feeling that somehow I must have been hit very hard on the inside of both thighs, opposite the groin. There were big lumps right in there, as if somebody had carefully spread my legs apart and then kicked the inside of the thighs very hard. There was also a magnificent rainbow bruising in the infected calf. Eventually, like Homer Simpson thinking through a physics problem, it occurred to me that there was a link between the thigh lumps and the calf rainbow...which meant (and I did feel a real pride) those lumps were BUBOES!

radiowarnerd

That's a fair comment. I've been worrying about that.

radiowarnerd

As usual, Peep Show is more rigorous than punditry

radiowarnerd

We will aim to be more consistent about when the topic starts.

Anton Furgeson

Not enough Victor Davis whatever-his-name is polemic in this episode!