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Radio War Nerd EP #134 — Post-War Italy: Prequel to Years Of Lead (Patreon)

Published:
2018-05-23 17:34:04
Edited:
2021-10-05 18:58:42
Imported:
2026-06
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Guest: Annibale, Italian war nerd 

Recorded May 21, 2018

Back by popular demand, RWN #131 guest "Annibale" follows up his episode on the Italian Resistance movement with this episode on Italian politics in the post-war period. To get there, we have to start with the radicalized & dynamic period immediately after WWI—the Turin factory occupations, the "Biennio Rosso", the rise of Mussolini's Fascists, the Liberal center-right's collusion with Fascism, and Mussolini's dictatorship . . . All of this is background to the post-war Italy politics mess, when the Cold War powers, namely the US and UK, put a freeze on Italian democracy . . . We also discuss some of the great murder mysteries of that period, from the murder of Matteotti to the mysterious death of Enrico Mattei (and anyone who dared to investigate his death) . . . 

This is part 2 of what will be a 3-part series on Italy 20th-C war & politics. Next, "Annibale" will take us through Italy's "Years of Lead" period . . . 

At 2:12:27 the Nerd and Ames take a look at current War News: Burundi teetering on the edge of another bloodletting . . . global Evangelical Christian power as American version of spreading Wahhabism . . . Ukrainian dolphins stage hunger strike to protest Russian imperialism . . . FBI's creepy CIA man Stefan Halper . . . 

Total time: 2:38:37

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here 

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Comments

R Renaldi

Relistening to the classic Annibale episodes, is there any plans as it is suggested here to do a deeper diver into the adriatic coast, yugoslavia, italian resistance and fascists, Trieste, etc. ? Seems like there was some appetite for it and I can not find anything in the english language that goes into greater detail

Blorst of times

Been a long too me coming but I finally have time to tackle this series. For what it is worth RWN has been a balm for this soul.

Isaac Buhler

Interested in any books you might be able to suggest (as mentioned) on adriatic coast, yugoslavia, italian resistance, fascists around and after WW2. I have found the book "Black Lamb and Grey Falcon" particularly enlightening on the history of Dalmatia and Croatia, but it is written in 1942.

Gee Mama

It's Annibale, as in Hannibal

Sérgio Teixeira da Silva

A fine example of romanticizing your opponent after he's safely dead, as our mentor says! :)

Sérgio Teixeira da Silva

First you have a Radio Peace Nerd episode with Tim Shorrock (#127), now you'll have not 1, but 2, Post-War Nerd Episodes - this podcast's going to the dogs! :)

Some Guy

Dolphins are known for going on hunger strikes when depressed in captivity. There are multiple cases in America of one becoming extremely attached to a particular handler, becoming depressed and refusing to eat until death when they leave.

James Christensen

Thanks for Years of Lead response! It was useful. Maybe I should clarify- all I meant by "status quo" was that Italy was a liberal democracy both before and after the period started (so neither the Red Brigades nor the NAR got what they wanted). Didn't mean to downplay importance of changes within that framework. Looking forward to longer episode about it- I've read what information I've been able to find but am still unsatisfied with my level of understanding.

Tim Owen

Really great episode and i'm not all the way through but just wanted to put this down before I forget: has anyone examined the roots of the almost invariable pattern of WW2 allies stepping into the shoes of our putative opponents? I mean, for example, fact that the US re-upped on Japan's Korean quisling rulers. Many others to choose from: the recruitment of Nazi scientists and intelligence assets in E Europe. Taking over France's imperial "mandate" in Viet Nam? And of course weaponizing the right wing of Italy. I'm just curious if anyone has addressed this pattern across the complexity of these different theatres and how the decisions were made. Seems more and more relevant as the unsavoury character of these alliances seem to have only become more alarming as we double-down on them now (Neo Nazis in Ukraine, Salafists in the ME....

eh

I think the continuity of imperialism's role in the drug trade might be interesting too. I know the show has covered the opium wars, but there's some interesting material out there on the French introducing opium to Vietnam in order to create a profitable state monopoly to make the colony self funding, and I know KMT were working closely with the Chinese opium traders. As part of their deal with the Green Gang to take out the CCP and any other attempts to organize labor in Shanghai (most spectacularly in the 27 massacres) Du Yuesheng was even made head of the Opium Suppresion Bureau, which more or less let him run the opium racket on his own. McCoy's The politics of heroin is good on the CIA's involvement in the SE Asian opium trade as a way to fund proxies, and the role of cocaine in US politics in South America is well known.

Jed Hovey

Great episode. I'm really looking forward to the upcoming one on the Years of Lead. I had a years long obsession with Deleuze and Guattari, which in turn lead to Autonomism and Italian theorists like Antonio Negri and Franco Berardi. I was shocked that, being born in the early 80s, I had never even heard of any of this happening. I like to say that my 20s were defined by losing faith in both Christianity and capitalism, the two great creeds of my youth, and Autonomist Marxism always had a certain appeal to me as I was trying to wade through the very long list of tendencies on the left.

tong

Annibale is great — looking forward to hearing through next episode. Been subscribing for about two years now & I enjoy it but man Ames's political instincts are *BAD* & honestly, kind of offensive. The fixation on "Russian meddling" (or lack thereof) is boring and irrelevant. It seems to me, despite all the signifying otherwise, like you just don't like seeing the Rich actually being prosecuted for once. & COME ON yr really talking about these stupid text messages between FBI agents — who are you? Ron Johnson? I don't give a damn if you don't like Trump — he's not the problem, his entire party, politics & class are the problem. & yes, Dolan is right, all this Russia meddling stuff is a distraction… the issue here is Americans breaking the law & getting prosecuted for it. I don't really care about "foreign meddling" either because that is some necessarily right wing sh*t. But, please, for God's sake, stop pretending like the only opposition to the Right is happening in New York & Washington DC.

Stefan van der Wel

“Keep it quick, keep it simple” - thx. I found myself tuning out last time. Let’s see how he goes

Patrick Conner

I did appreciate the “fast and quick formula” this go round. Much as I liked the first time, I definitely got lost in the details at some points and just tuned out for a few stretches.

xnfec

Great episode. Minor point: when originally set up, Yogosalvia was known as the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. In his book, The Pursuit of Italy (good book but Tim Parks has an interesting view of it), David Gilmour states that the secret treaty allying Italy with the western axis was known to only two people on the Italian side. How about an episode devoted to the creation of Italy?

James

I can't seem to find the book Annibale mentions late in the episode. I think it's called The Burning Bush? Does anyone know anything about it? I gotta read this thing.

Annibale

I misremebered the title

The January Storm

This was a really great episode! I'm really surprised we didn't hear anything about the Italian Syndicalists, who I always thought were some of the main drivers of the Biennio Rosso, is their role just over-exaggerated?

James

Thanks so much. This is amazing.

Tommer_man

Really like the part about the Gentile reforms. I've been reading the Prison Notebooks

zaabittimov

Great interview with Annibale, I’m looking forward to hearing more episodes with him! However, as one of the resident ex-Yugoslav listeners, I think that there are a few things that need a little bit of clarification. When talking about the violence in the area of Trieste, he mentioned the presence of Slovene divisions of the Yugoslav National Liberation Army, however, it might not have been quite clear that Trieste and the surrounding areas have/had a significant Slavic (mostly Slovene and Croat) population. That population was heavily oppressed by the fascist regime and subjected to forced Italianization among other things. Mussolini himself famously referred to the Slavs as an “inferior and barbarian race”. Organized resistance to fascism by the Slavic population in Italy emerged early into his rule and many of these people later joined the Partisans. In that sense, the conflict in that area was indeed more violent as it had an ethnic component that didn’t really exist in the rest of Italy. I was a little surprised, but maybe there wasn’t enough time (or I missed it), that he didn’t mention that Trieste was liberated by the Yugoslavs and that it wasn’t reintegrated into Italy until a few years after the war was over. The loss of Trieste is still a controversial issue in Slovenia and Croatia, I was recently in Pula and saw a big graffiti that said TRST JE NAŠ (Trieste is ours!) which was one of the main slogans from the post-war period. I think it was tongue and cheek, but it definitely hasn’t been forgotten. Also, regarding the Italian support for the Chetniks, I liked his point about sticking it to the Germans, but the reasons for their support was far more practical. In the zone of Italian occupation, mostly within the Croatian puppet state, there was a high level of both Chetnik and Partisan activity. What the Italians did was foster the cooperation between the Chetniks and the Ustashas (something modern Serbian and Croatian nationalists don’t like to talk about), and help coordinate joint actions against the Partisans. A great uncle of mine for example was killed in battle against the Italians who were backed by both Chetniks and the Ustasha. I’m also interested in the figures that Annibale gave for the number of Italians executed in the reprisals, as it is way higher than any of the generally accepted figures that I’ve seen. I’m not usually particularly interested in the practice of casualty counts, but I’m curious as to where he got that number. It would essentially amount to almost 10% of the pre-war Italian population. Cheers and keep up the good work!

zaabittimov

One more thing! The internet is full of different theories about Tito's "true origins" but I've never heard that he's part Italian! ;)

Angus Crowe

I've tried looking for a link to fine the book 'The Burning Bush' Annibale mentioned but can't find anything. Anyone have any luck?

Annibale

I mis-remembered the title

Angus Crowe

Thanks so much Annibale!

xnfec

An interesting film to do with this period is Il Divo by Paolo Sorentino which mentions the Moro affair. It's good for a flavour of the times and is on Amazon Prime if you have it.

Anthony

Would love to translate the book about the Freies Deutchland Batallion from Italian to English...but not sure which Italian book Annibale is referring to. Is it "Il nemico in casa"?

Anthony

grazie, Annibale! Adesso mi informo meglio, vivo a Torino da poco e devo ancora visitare il museo, ora ho un motivo in più per andarci. Thanks for your great contribution to Radio War Nerd!

Evan McCalmon

Great episode! “Surrender to the Notion / Of the Motion of the Ocean” and the fascist dolphin are from Robert Stone’s short story Aquarius Obscured in the collection Bear and His Daughter.

Sérgio Teixeira da Silva

The Burundi-Rwanda border isn't artificial: they were 2 separate Tutsi pre-colonial kingdoms.

Shfifty_five

Yeah, some of the most consistently horrific shit that's ever happened in Europe. Poor but nothing crazy, syncretic more than right/left spectrum, and the landscape is serene. What sets it apart is an ethno-religious sectarian hatred that is found in places like Syria but less in other parts of Europe

Eric

Wrote my thesis on the interwar period earlier this year and it would’ve been amazing to have these episodes as a resource at the time. One quibble I have is that Annibale describes the socialist party as not wanting to partake in the factory strikes, however, as I understand it the rank and file of the major unions such as the General Confederation of labor and the socialist party did indeed want to strike but the leaders of the the unions and parties at the most crucial moment were intransigent and ambivalent.

Mathew Muntz

Hello from the beginning of America's years of lead! Glenda Sluga's The Problem of Trieste and the Italo-Yugoslav Border is good (if a little dry). The most interesting part to me was her description of street demonstrations/violence ("politics of the piazza"), and the meddling of the allied military authority in collaboration with Italian liberals and rehabilitated fascist street thugs-turned-cops to break up the Italian/Slavic communist alliance along ethnic lines. The Istrian-Italian novelist Fulvio Tomizza also wrote about the postwar situation on the Yugoslav side of the border - his book Materada has been translated into English, not sure about his other ones. And I recently heard an interview with a Croatian researcher named Eric Ušić on the Remembering Yugoslavia podcast about pro-Stalin graffiti in Croatian and Italian in some small Istrian towns that somehow survives to this day - remnants of the cross-border, interethnic Partisan movement

online Leftist Archive Project (LARP)

Guys I'm going back to listening to all the classic Annibale episodes, and this shit is amazing. It's like reading a book. Amazing stuff, learning so much 20th century history from this.

River to Reality

What was the name of the mission where the guy parachutes in and says the left partisans can’t take power? Medici turco aminci?