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Radio War Nerd EP #403 [UNLOCKED] — The Palestine Laboratory of Hi-Tech Oppression, feat. Antony Loewenstein (Patreon)

Published:
2023-10-12 19:20:59
Imported:
2023-10
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Content

Guest: Antony Loewenstein, journalist & author 

Recorded: October 12, 2023

We talk to Sydney-based journalist Antony Loewenstein about his all-too-timely new book, "The Palestine Laboratory: How Israel Exports the Technology of Occupation Around the World" in the context of today's Hamas-Israel war.

-Buy Antony's new book The Palestine Laboratory, published by Verso Press. Check out Antony's media project Declassified Australia, and his personal site for articles and more. Follow him on Twitter. 

Total time: 1:10:11

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here 

Subscribe to Radio War Nerd at patreon.com/radiowarnerd

Sound production by Telescope Audio

Check out the Radio War Nerd Merch store here!

*Buy John Dolan's comic memoir "Pleasant Hell" now available in both audio and ebook format.

Files

Comments

Ilya Fishman

Just open every episode with chanting From the River to the Sea already. Or Khaybar Khaybar ya Yahood. Lmao.

Ander Pierce

Nice. Thanks for the episode guys

Ander Pierce

Sensitive much? I know there's a minority demographic that can't imagine states misusing surveillance. Are you among it? Even is you are, holy mother of false equivalencies Batman!

Aiden

Thanks

Isaac Suárez

Great discussion! One comment I have regarding population transfers: I seriously doubt any nation in the region (or Europe) would accept millions of Palestinians. Egypt has its own chronic security problems (to say nothing of its huge youth unemployment problem and sclerotic, aid based, economy.) Jordan has a bad history of political instability (and bad, preferably forgotten memories of the “Black September” expulsion of the PLO) and nothing like the economic capacity to accept Palestinian refugees. Lebanon is in full collapse already, and Hezbollah would find many, eager recruits for its forces. Syria is also devastated by sanctions, struggling to rebuild from the civil war, and would likely support arming Palestinian refugees for potential operations in Israel (or elsewhere) in conjunction with Iran. Saudi Arabia and Turkey are the only potential receiving countries- and neither seem eager to accept more Palestinians (particularly Turkey, which already is facing a backlash to Syrian refugees.) Given the allergy the EU has shown to even a relatively small number of refugee outflows from Syria, Africa and Afghanistan, and the active terrorist groups that are operating in much of the Sahel- who could also recruit Palestinians to overthrow a government or two- I can’t envision Israel finding any willing partners to accept a “population transfer.” The Israeli right is dream casting if it thinks “population transfers” are an answer to the Palestinian presence- which likely means that violent, escalating conflict is all they have to offer.

Robert McHugh

Ilya is a deep-cover Hamas operative working to turn western audiences against Israel by doing deliberately awful hasbara.

Karl Childers

radio war nerd absolutely delivering this week. respect & thanks.

Ilya Fishman

Yes. Inshallah we will liberate Falastin and then after we are done with the Yahood, John and Mark can put out an episode on the nuances of how that was done.

Ilya Fishman

Yes I'm sensitive when Khaled Meshal puts out a call to attack Jews throughout the world. But hey we ALL deserve it right? Because falastin

Ilya Fishman

Yes! Respect and thanks. How about a special on the Arab Revolt of 1933-1936? No?

Ilya Fishman

Book originally published in May 2023. But this episode comes out now. Nah must be a coincidence.

William

Yo dumbass, you miss the part in the beginning where mark said they’ve been trying to do this interview for months?

Pepipopa

Hope you're safe when you order ubereats remember to check the driver cause if he's muslim he might be on the way to do violence - because he's muslim. CAREFUL! very scary very very scary muslims terrorism scary scary scary scary scared scary.

Jakob Stenfalk

I would not actually take it as a given that Israel can roll into Gaza like the Americans rolled into Kabul and Baghdad. The last week has shown an absolute clown-shoes incompetence on part of the IOF - their navy still seems to be entirely asleep, and their infantry is milling around with tanks sitting around out in the open for Hezbollah to take shots at from the Lebanese side of the border. The IOF is really making the Russian armed forces look competent by comparison, but unlike the Russians Israel has no strategic depth - they don't actually have a spare tank division after pissing away one.

Ander Pierce

Jewish myself, and I don't straw man everyone I listen to or disregard the war crimes Israel is doing. Fact is, if Israel (or any foreign power) occupied USA just as it currently occupies Palestine, I would resist it. And I can't really fault Palestinians or Hamas for resisting it. Their war crimes are disgusting, just as Israel's are.

Ander Pierce

Just pretense for the Mark + John deep cover psyop Will, jeez Sheeple amirite

William Brame

Great episode and great discussion. I know it’s too close to home but I wish you had a Palestinian or an Arab on. As for Hamas, I kinda think they WANT Israel to roll into Gaza on foot and get wrecked. I also don’t think the false flag or inside job narrative is getting enough play. Because Israel has committed terrorism against Jews and scaring Jews is one of its main propaganda points.

William Brame

Can you even call it war crimes when you got mandatory conscription and every living adult is a potential reservist? Also how do whackos like Ilya find this patreon?! Lol

J P 3

Great discussion on a depressing situation right now. As far as Hamas is concerned, I think they clearly made a very high stakes wager that is going to result in significant bloodshed and a humanitarian disaster (and potentially a genocide), but I'm not sure it will fail to achieve their objectives (i.e. an end of the occupation being the biggest). The action may have turned public opinion in the west and unified a part of the diaspora behind the Netanyahu government for a time, but it's not like western governments and the diaspora have demonstrated any capacity or willingness to alter the current trajectory of the conflict. If anything, the inability of the U.S. or the EU to really see their own interests as separate from the far-right Israel government, and to play a more neutral role, is likely to increase the possibility that Israel engages in the kind of bloodletting, that potentially broadens the conflict in a way that might help Hamas. Even if other regional governments do not become active, overt participants in the conflict, it seems likely that a bloodletting and wanton violence against civilians may make it impossible for some of these governments to maintain relations with Israel. The U.S.'s position of unqualified support for a genocide in the region may also significantly curtail U.S. influence in the region (which will have the practical effect of diminishing the power of the U.S. to project its power globally). There are open questions concerning how well prepared Hamas is to wage a prolonged fight in Gaza. Given the planning and execution of their raid on the border regions, one would imagine that they probably factored the likely Israeli response into their calculations. I would also assume that they were able to supplement weapons stockpiles with munitions and arms secured from the Israeli bases on the border. Additionally, will public opinion in the region turn hard enough to make even autocratic regimes feel the need to change state policy towards the conflict and Israel?

Doug Cartel

maybe israel and india are close at a government level, but every time I see indians posting "I stand with israel" the israelis always respond with some version of "fuck off knuckle dragger" which might just be twitter, but isnt a great sign Also, in fascist lore, Judaism's original sin is statelessness, so the existence of israel might not absolve them of that, but it does make nazis tolerate them much more. but yeah, hypocrisy is overrated, because the rules-based international order has one rule: it's good when the west does it and bad when the rest do it

Nihalf Mohammed

seriously? hasbara attempts INSIDE RADIO WAR NERD? the absolute state of you LOL

Ilya Fishman

I'd rather be an dumbass than be you.

Ilya Fishman

Yes! It's all hasbara. Everywhere. We control the media and the banks. Lmao

Ilya Fishman

That's right! Hahahah EVERY Israeli is a potential soldier and every Jew is a potential Israeli. Btw I've been listening to RWN for YEARS.

Ilya Fishman

I don't order ubereats and I suspect I've spent more time in Dar al-Islam than you have

Ilya Fishman

I thought Palestine wasn't about Islam but about Nationalism of the Palestinian People!!!!!11111

Ilya Fishman

Israel 'occupied' Palestine. Lmao Can someone occupy a non-existent polity? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works

Ilya Fishman

Better than the state of HAMASland aka Gaza

Jonathan Penn

Excellent episode. Radio War Nerd has indeed been an invaluable resource in understanding what is going on in Israel and Gaza at this time. A question that has been asked from the first minutes of this most recent catastrophe is "how does this end?" I have just read of Israel's evacuation order and I think the outline of the end is becoming clear. Israel will push a large portion of the Palestinian population south, cut off and utterly raze a significant chunk of the Gaza strip, and maintain that razed area as a demilitarized/unoccupied zone. I cannot be certain this is the aim, but it seems commensurate with the evacuation order, as well as the level of anger and willingness to treat all Palestinians as perpetrators of the attack. I would not be surprised if Israel were to force Palestinian refugees into Lebanon and Jordan. As I said, I cannot be certain of any of these predictions. The only thing we can be certain of is that a humanitarian catastrophe will be visited on the Palestinians in response to the humanitarian catastrophe that was visited upon Israel by Hamas. 2023 and we still follow the "eye for an eye" rule proposed by Hammurabi roughly 3,750 years ago . Thanks again to RWN for keeping us informed with balanced commentary.

William Brame

So are you a robot or what!? And what is your obsession with Uber eats?

JoR

As usual, amazing guest and amazing episode! I do want to push back on his general point on the Hamas invasion being a "suicide move". In reality, yes, it is "suicide". But what success guerilla move of the last 120+ years wasn't a "suicide" move? Was the Easter rising not "suicide" for those involved? Was the insurgency in Vietnam not "suicide" for millions of Vietnamese men and women (including the civilians supporting the NVA) ? I know that sounds coy and cold, but I don't think Hamas expected to roll to Tel Aviv or for Israel to surrender. They know what's coming and probably embrace it. And yes, you have to consider the consequences of not only yourself (a 20 something young male eager for a noble death), but your family. But again, from a strictly realist view, they probably want Israel to overextend and respond disproportionately. Yes, the west is essentially giving them a "free pass" on what we their reaction will be. But you can already tell the mainstream media is hesitant on how far it'll go. And, even if it's not right away, if Israel does some massive ethnic cleansing, it will most likely have a long term negative effect. I think even if Hamas was some secular/atheist group, their rational would be the same. But even more so since they are Islamic/theocratic/religious. So what if you and your entire family perish? If you are a true believer (which we can assume most are), then why does that matter if this truly is a monumental step in the war? Again I hope this does not come off as disrespectful to those who will go through genuine horrors soon. But in the cold-blooded nature of irregular war, especially with the "hand" the Palestinians have been dealt, I can't imagine a more logical move. The world in 1916 probably called the Easter rising "stupid", but was it?

Ilya Fishman

Never got Ubereats. And yes I'm actually generative AI.

William

The discussion around 37:30 - re: Israel weapons testing on Palestinians: the economic importance of having a captive population that they can test these weapons on is the only thing I can think of that could possibly stay the hand of the Israelis from committing ethnic cleansing

Charles Sullivan

I just listened to this today, Oct 14, and I'm in shock at how fast this situation is escalating.

No

"If there is something comforting—religious, if you want—about paranoia, there is still also anti-paranoia, where nothing is connected to anything, a condition not many of us can bear for long. Well right now Slothrop feels himself sliding onto the anti-paranoid part of his cycle, feels the whole city around him going back roofless, vulnerable, uncentered as he is, and only pasteboard images now of the Listening Enemy left between him and the wet sky. Either They have put him here for a reason, or he’s just here. He isn’t sure that he wouldn’t, actually, rather have that reason."

No

It was reported few days ago that Iranian president and MBS had a 45 minute phone call, the first time they ever talked. The Iranian FM also visited Nasrallah in Lebanon few days ago. If IDF wipes out Gaza and Hezbollah does nothing, they lose all legitimacy. If Israel goes ahead, and it draws in Hezbollah, then that's potentially Syria and Iran. Clearly Saudi, US and Iran don't wanna let this get out of hand. But its up to Israel not to make this decision, I don't see another way out. Depressing top to bottom.

Jack Sylvia

A friend of mine from an evangelical family in N Carolina has a sister and brother-in-law who have converted to a right wing line of Judaism (possibly genuinely?) with the intentions of moving out of their hollowed out southern town and into a Palestinian home in the settlements

JoR

I don't disagree, but if Hezbollah doesn't intervene, will they really lose legitimacy? Especially in Lebanon? Yes I can see their international credibility potentially being hit. But their true consistency is the Lebanese Shia and their political allies in Lebanon. And I don't know if solidarity with the Palestinians is worth the damage that would come to Lebanon if they join the war

No

I mean maybe, but alot of their legitimacy is in their resistance, otherwise they wouldn't have a large military and intervened in syria for example. In this situation not only can they do something, theyre basically only ones who can, so theyll get blamed either way. Defensively we know theyre very capable, but i can't see them marching on Tel Aviv either. But youre right, things are pretty bad in lebanon already. We need Amal Saad back on the show, she knows more than us.

Hana

One of the best sources on Palestine and Isreal but... That comment about the biggest number of Jews killed since the Holocaust. I can't recall who it was being quoted but it really ought to have been critiqued here. In the UK we've had Palestine's flag referred to in the same breath as the Nazi swastika. This comment amounts to associating Palestine with the Nazi holocaust. It's especially grotesque given the number of people killed just this week. I'm really surprised yous moved past that without comment. Likewise the confusion regarding Hamas's offensive. Suicidal maybe, but what are the choices. All of the death in Palestine and Israel is at the feet of Israel. And the US, UK and every power that has sat on its hands or actively colluded for the last 100+ years when my dogshit nation issued the Balfour Declaration.

Andrew Tait

Yes, Hana. I thought you guys really underestimated the level of desperation in Gaza. There have been weekly unarmed demos by the Gaza fence where protestors have been shot by IDF snipers for a year? 2 years? Longer? As one meme puts it: Palestine has had 1000s of Gandhis. Israel keeps killing them.