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Radio War Nerd EP #410 — A Brief History of the Waffen SS, feat. Annibale (Patreon)

Published:
2023-11-29 04:08:47
Imported:
2023-11
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Guest: Annibale

After the Canadian parliament jumped from their seats to give a thundering standing ovation to a Waffen SS veteran, we at RWN vowed to Never Forget, and that means summoning our old friend Annibale to help us recover lost history & debunk post-WW2 whitewashing myths about the Waffen SS.

Books mentioned:-Building a Nazi Europe: The SS’s Germanic Volunteers, by Martin Gutmann -Valhalla’s Warriors: A History of the Waffen-SS on the Eastern Front 1941-1945, by Terry Goldsworthy -Machete Season: The Killers in Rwanda Speak, by Jean Hatzfeld

*Photos from Waffen SS veteran & Canadian parliament rockstar Yaroslav Hunka's SS scrapbook:

*

Check out these RWN series with Annibale:-Italy's Years Of Lead (EP 134, EP 135, EP 136, EP 139); -Italy On The WW2 Eastern Front (EP 226, EP 227, EP 228, EP 231, EP 236)

Total time: 1:49:04

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here

*

Subscribe to Radio War Nerd at patreon.com/radiowarnerd

Sound production by Telescope Audio

Check out the Radio War Nerd Merch store here!

*Buy John Dolan's comic memoir "Pleasant Hell" now available in both audio and ebook format.

Files

Comments

HeyB00B00

Annibale and WW2?! Christmas in November

Tvvvv

Annibale said he’s an expert on nazi occult and esotericism. Sounds like a great episode idea. Very similar to all of the war porn that exists about ww2 that seems to glorify the Nazis, the esoteric stuff is intriguing but difficult to determine fact from fiction. A major gap for my knowledge is how that cult aspect is carried through in almost all of the nazi post war neo nazi variations.

blazed uncle

Very funny to hear Annibale refer to that Ukrainian Nazi as “cherished in Canada”

Annibale

It's a fascinating subject but once you real primary sources (and there are a few both for German Nazism and for Italian Fascism) it goes in an unexpected way that is far removed from the "Morning of the Magicians" -type lurid tales- This is enough to disappoint a lot of fans of what you rightly call "war porn", but far from being uninteresting, as it explains some of the deeper roots of Nazism, and shows how in fact Hitler didn't invent much, and was tapping into a cultural atmosphere that had been there fro at least 50 years before his rise.

Jack Sylvia

This picture of Trudeau.. he really might be Fidel’s lmao

xnfec

Isn't the opposite of a revolutionary a reactionary?

Tvvvv

Thank you, Mr. Annibale. I really appreciate the response. I’m a big fan. Please do more episodes on whatever topic. So are you saying that these pagan elements were just there in the culture and the fascists stoked those embers to further solidify the ethno-nationalist element? If so, when did the Nazi’s incorporate this element? I also assume that this is carried forward possibly in the stay behind networks and is why that element remains in like later iterations of neo nazi movements (Order of the Nine Angles or similar). Like if the Masonic lodges of Italy are considered to be an equivalent occult ritual then that’s how it’s carried forward in the stay behind network. Or is it that these pagan feelings are lying under the surface in many cultures and are just waiting for someone to stir them up? Please don’t feel the need to respond. If you do, I hope my questions make sense.

William

Very important detail of fascism that doesn’t necessarily create/identify the ideology on its own - but is important for understanding how fascism is already here in the US - the elite liberals’ love for everything having its place in society, workers being docile workers, etc ~42:40

Annibale

If you listen to German propaganda between 1938 to 1940. you always get the same narrative: "Russia is a barbarous country ruled by a monstrous Jewish - Communist diarchy. At the same time, English-speaking countries (even those we're at war with) are basically fine places infected by the Jewish virus because they didn't get rid of them when they could, as we did. And so we built the perfect society (classes and racial differences engraved in stone, efficiency, and technocracy everywhere, the cult of the origins and of the nice provincial traditions, etc) they should emulate". It was difficult for a lot of the Anglo public not to get fascinated, at least before war broke.

Annibale

German and Italian societies had been fascinated by a lot of "occult" tendencies at least since the late 80s of the XIX century. Keep in mind however that by "occult" I mean the Theosophic / Anthroposophic version of it, not the whole Satanic crap. Steiner's teachings had been a huge part of the sugarcoating of racism ideologies before and after WWI, but the whole marriage of romantic mysticism and pseudo-oriental teaching together with the German tradition of justifying the push toward the East with an inherent cultural superiority over the "Slavs" (the Ostforschung I mention in the show) had very strong roots in Germany well before Hitler began his political activities. And it was not just something German, believe me.

Annibale

Post-war neo-Fascism has always been ambivalent towards "Fascist mysticism". In Italy, it was really linked to Mussolini's views and his push for a sort of "secular Fascistic church" (more like a cult of the state). But some of the most extreme branches of Italian neofascism (like Ordine Nero) were more forthcoming in their fascination with the links between Nazism and Anthroposophy.

Annibale

It should be however noted also that once coming to power, Hitler was ruthless in his repression of "mystic circles", no matter how close to Nazism they were, as he thought they would inevitably turn into seditious groups. And even the official SS link with any form of "ritual" (that was not clearly of military / medieval origins, you know, the whole Teutonic Knights stuff) is debatable.

Annibale

Not necessarily. The Nazis were radicals, not revolutionaries, they wanted to deeply change the society to expel all the elements they considered against their views of racial purity and social hierarchies. They were of course allied with the true reactionaries / conservatives, but they felt themselves like a radical vanguard, not simple reactionaries.

xnfec

Maybe it is a subtle distinction but who was in the service of whom? Were they both using eachother?

Annibale

Well, SOME of the true reactionaries (people nostalgic for XX-century stability) thought they could use Nazism and to some extent they did. But despite some claims of the contrary, Nazism was never "a tool of the bourgeoise" in the Marxian sense. It was a marriage of convenience with some definite different goals. Hitler wanted an Imperial, racially purified society, not just "the German capital" take back control of the society. HE was in control of the society, not any other political or social forces. It's a similar discourse with the German armed forces

Annibale

At the individual level yes, some stories were all over the place. At the organizational level, absolutely no, and this is the point I make at the beginning to the show

No

WAR NERDS BEWARE. The Napoleon movie we were promised is bad and is straight up British propaganda defaming the Corsican. The battle scenes look good but if you are a Napoleonic war fan it will make you very angry cause there are historical inaccuracies everywhere. Ridley Scott has been compromised, the inbred British deep state doesn't want the world to have a civil code and the metric system

Doug Cartel

the next whitewash will be claiming SS stands for Silly Soldiers but yeah that whole 'super soldiers outnumbered' thing is still a real sexy concept to people or else Games Workshop would have gone bankrupt long ago, and Marvel would never have made a single film.

Doug Cartel

call me crazy but I would argue there's a straight line from the Civil War slaveholders to the Nazis. Same war-time historical trajectory (repatriated and re-integrated into post-war politics as speedily as their enemy elite could manage, expats move to south america), Alabama U Alumni using their education to write the Nuremburg Laws, etc etc. I mean sure there's fingerprints all over the place to suggest it but I think it's more tangible than history lets on. I guess what I mean by that is *direct involvement*, like confederate progeny talking to nazis etc. and not just parallels.

Matthew Thrunnowicki

The Ukrainian Diaspora has historically been a haven for ex-OUN types, and have spent decades whitewashing their history of being Nazi-collaborators. Rossoliński-Liebe covers this well in his book on Bandera, titled “Stepan Bandera: The Life and Afterlife of a Ukrainian Nationalist Fascism, Genocide, and Cult”

Philip Girvan

As currently planned the Memorial to the Victims of Communism will list names on its proposed Wall of Remembrance. Given the current vetting system it seems almost certain that Canada will soon be honouring more of these murderous pigfuckers.

Torgeir Tannenwald

The Waffen SS were in fact as bad as the Nazis? Godwin's Law, anyone?

Annibale

They were a key Nazi organzation / assett, then it's up to you to decide what you think of Nazi policies and actions. No relation with Godwin's Law, I'm afraid...

Torgeir Tannenwald

Sorry, stupid attempt to be funny. My bad, Annibale! Big fan :D

Demented Avenger

Himmler was making what a teenage boy thinks would be a great military unit to run. Himmler didn't get to see action in the Great War, and seems to have had a chip on his shoulder about this, having something to prove. So, he makes his own military unit. The uniforms? Stylish, because he had to look badass and impress someone. The soldiers? Tougher and nastier than any other soldier. (They were nastier, I'll give them that.) There's an element in this in just about everyone who becomes a soldier, of course, but in the case of the SS, that's pretty much all it really was, a way for some nerds to try to get attention for being tough guys.

Demented Avenger

Shorter pre-1945 German foreign policy: we can do a better job exploiting Eastern Europe than the Russians.

Tvvvv

Again thank you for responding and clearing that up.

Karl Childers

great point, would love to see this avenue explored in detail

Karl Childers

understandable to not want to record a waffen SS episode but tbh i think this is valuable because the term "SS" is so often used as a rhetorical floating signifier while relatively fewer of us know the tangible history. (always love to hear from annibale.)

Annibale

Better than the Russian aristocrats yes. Or better "doing what the Russian aristocracy was supposed to do before they were killed by the Jewish inspired Russian Revolution".

Annibale

Sort of. Himmler created the brand and the franchise, but a lot of important details weren't his working. Oswald Pohl created the economic empire (which did include holiday resorts, luxury shops and night clubs, btw) and Gottlob Berger, Paul Hausser and (in part) Sepp Detritch did their part in creating the "military" structure around the W-SS. But the real masterpiece they did (particularly Himmler) was how for years they funneled personnel, resources, money and weaponry away from the German military machine (where it was sorely needed...) and into a bloated private army

Annibale

There were seaside resort on the Baltic and one ski resort for officers in the French Alps

John Waaben

Tell me if I'm wrong here but demographic makeup of the SS before "shit got real" with the German losses in the Eastern front... seems to be nerds. War nerds. Middle to upper-middle class guys who were raised on the idea of civilizational superiority of being "German" and just geeking out on it, loving the aesthetics of it utterly. Hope future episodes explore this dynamic more because you can see this legacy all over Western nerdery- another commenter citing Warhammer 40k & Marvel superheroes would not exist without the super-soldier myths of the Waffen-SS. SS can almost be seen as the "school shooter society"- at least in my head

John Waaben

Skull and Bones + the SS share some of the same iconography. Also, gotta mention the deep financial and industrial ties between Wall Street and the 3rd reich before, during, and after WW2. A lot of american elite straight up liked the Nazis, most influentially the Dulles Brothers

William

I’ve been told listening to the age of napoleon podcast is a much more enjoyable experience

tobes

Did annibale record in a studio? He sounds amazing in this episode

Annibale

Surprisingly, there were way more jocks than nerds. 12th SS "Hitlerjugend" was literally a jock's dream come true (everyone athletic, everyone showing off their girlfriend's name, even on the tank gun's barrel, and a quite competitive environment). Pio Filippani Ronconi (mentioned in the show) ended up as an academic erudite, but if you believe his autobiographical notes, he was raised both as someone obsessed by Eastern philosophies AND as a high school jock (and a bully, to some extent). Not sure about the Warhammer 40k comparison (it's at heart a parody of that ethos), and Marvel culture began and it's still to some extent deeply imbibed by liberal values. As I always say, individual stories in an 850.000 people large organization are bound to be all over the place, but I've never consistently met in my research any "nerd" in the current stereotype (the lonely obsessed incel outcast who ends up killing random people at school).

Hans Anders

In the Netherlands, the SS were also the most loyal supporters of the German occupiers. To such an extent that a public rupture started to show between the SS and the more ‘nationalist’ regular nazi movement. The rupture became less pronounced because the Germans suppressed it and because so many of the SS were off to the fronts. No regular school education here will tell you that we were an important supplier for the W-SS btw

Demented Avenger

Alright, so that Baltic one probably is a KdF destination. Makes that program even more interesting.

John Waaben

I see I see. Thank you for clearing that up Annibale! Guess I confused my archetypes

Benke

I'm not sure how the name of the division "Galizien" was meant to hide the fact that the members were Ukrainian. It was the name of western Ukraine under Autrian rule, it derives from the name of principality of Halych, a Kievan Rus statelet.

teh_drewski

It was pretty interesting hearing about the attempt to cast the Waffen SS as a proto-NATO - as someone who had only really encountered the term via calling wannabe Nazis waffentwerps, it would never have occurred to me that it could have been a good thing.

Jimothy Realname

I don't know if this has been mentioned on the show before, but the reason the Ukrainian Canadian community is like that is that the Canadian government brought over a bunch of SS veterans after WW2 - it was the Cold War now and the Ukrainian Canadian diaspora was too left wing for their taste. Edit: I listened to the remainder of the episode the following day and Mark mentioned this

xnfec

I think Frederick Forsyth fed into this view of the SS in the Odessa File when his Skorzeny character says that the Waffen SS took on all-comers and made mincemeat of them.

xxx

We love Annibale! 🤘🔥

James Evans

Did he get to the end of the Italian Wars? I can’t remember any more

Annibale

Not yet. Sometime in the future

Gengeros

If you want more information about the Waffen-SS I suggest the following sources: Heinrich Himmler: A Life by Peter Longerich and Nazi Death Squads from the American Heroes Channel.

Annibale

The naming of these units was always a mess, as it changed every few weeks (not just for the 14th Division). The name "Galizien" was a compromise because for some SS top brass (and for Hitler) it was difficult to swallow they had to allow "real" slavs into their ranks. It was used because it had an Austro-Hungarian, imperial feeling that was akin to the use of "Prinz Eugen" or "Marie Therese" for other units

SB

Annibale is an international treasure! "It was easier and more comfortable for them to believe that the SS were all 10ft tall and bulletproof, than that the Russians fought magnificently." Oh, the irony.

Benke

Ok, thanks for the clarification

Christopher Price

Is this the first mention of the SNP on RWN? If any war nerds happen to be in Banska Bystrica Slovakia, visit the museum of the SNP there.

James Evans

Yay, looking forward to it. Thanks for another magnificent episode.

Annibale

The idea Germany had invented NATO before NATO became the central point of HAIG (the "ex W-SS" lobbying group) propaganda work until 1963. It was also supported by several ex-Wehrmacht generals, in particular Guderian, Manstein and Hermann Hoth. Their point is that NATO should have adopted the same model and (implicitly) used formed W-SS and Wehrmacht top brass as advisors. It was a big deal for few years, in particular, because HAIG began leveraging their potential vote basin (thought to be around 200.000 voters, even if itwas later demonstrated to have been inflated) with the Adenauer government in order to give W-SS personnel military pensions. Cold War histeria and more or less open sympathy from some section of US / UK political and military establishment (see Joe MacCarthy as a prime example) did the rest.

Annibale

However in the early 60s things changed as several ex-W-SS members were involved in different high-profile trials for war crimes, and the public perception (particularly among the German youth) of the organization changed. There was also a distinct turn to the right of many HAIG members so there was little chance they could sell themselves to the general public as "anticommunist but democratic". Also, several W-SS spokesmen got old or died, and the whole organization's political influence declined. However the damage was done, and a lot of mythology they had disseminated around the W-SS being "elite unpoliticized Western soldiers" remained, particularly in the US

Matt

It’s interesting to note that a pulp novel that glorified the SS “the Devil’s Guard” was widely read by U.S. soldiers in the GWOT especially by special forces. According to the Intercept the novel may have inspired the war crimes of Seal Team 6. (“Slabinkski and others in the squadron had fallen under the influence of an obscure war novel, “Devil’s Guard,” published in 1971 by George Robert Elford. The book purported to be a true account of an S.S. officer who with dozens of other soldiers escaped Germany after World War II, joined the French Foreign Legion, and spent years in Vietnam brutalizing the insurgency. The novel, which glorifies Nazi military practices, describes counterinsurgency tactics such as mass slaughter and desecration and other forms of wanton violence as a means of waging psychological warfare against the “savage” Vietnamese. “These fucking morons read the book ‘The Devil’s Guard’ and believed it,” said one of the former SEAL Team 6 leaders who investigated Slabinski and Blue Squadron”)

Annibale

I honestly didn't know about this. Of course I know about Devil's Guard, it's absolutely trash, seems impossible anyone in a real fighting unit could take it seriously. The whole myth of the "former SS fighting in Vietnam" it's fascinating in its tackiness, as it's the general fascination of the public for this kind of fictionalized memories, the most famous being "Forgotten Soldier". We should do an episode on the whole phenomenon

Mark Ames

how ironic that the USG's Phoenix program along with other US units did exactly what supposedly only the rugged SS was capable of doing in some hackneyed fictional fantasy world. And they didn't need black uniforms with skull patches to do it!

Jeremy

A witness of the massacres of Babi Yar said "Slava Ukraini" was repeated after every firing squad salvo. And now, in NATO run countries but very prominently in Canada, you are told saying it is for the good of democracy. The Bandera Lobby is unchallenged here.

Kamran Husain

i’m genuinely shocked at how similar the ss is to all the shit being done in gaza