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The West Wing, Season 4, Episode 11 (Patreon)

Published:
2024-03-19 00:23:02
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2026-06
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Content

Holy Night

Comments

Martin Nicholls

Wait.. I thought you said you'd seen Mr Robot >.> (hell yes). I was thinking, who the heck is in the opening credits.. Wow that's a lot of spoilers in one opening credits - I hate it when TV shows do that. I like this one quite a lot (generally) - but I like how it ties back to Josh's Christmas episode, where it brings back Adam Arkin, has a callback about Josh's sister and a few other things to round it off. As for the Josh/Donna commentary, it's impossible to answer without spoiling one way or another, I'd just say maybe don't worry about it too much? IDK. As for writing "romantic" storylines, I think they do it well, it's just the characters themselves aren't very functional people in that regard, Josh isn't, CJ isn't, Sam isn't, Toby has his thing going on (these are actually well-circumscribed character traits of these people that they're wholly incompetent when it comes to personal romantic relationships, and the show even often plays it off for laughs so of course they're clunky storylines in that sense) - where they are functional it generally is fine; Bartlett's relationship for example is fine and also plausible.

Taylor

The harmonies those boys hit at the ending montage never fail to give me chills. No spoilers but I can tell you that there were people who felt like you and also a lot of people who wanted Josh and Donna to get together. My advice would be to continue to trust the show.

Jeff

At this point in the series, and particularly in this episode, I don't see Josh's feelings toward Donna as romantic. I think he's always been very possessive of her, as someone on whom he can rely and also control when he needs to. He's the one with the power in the relationship, and now he's seeing that she's actually a grown woman with her own power and her own life. It's a huge change, and it's making him uncomfortable and confused. And I think it also confuses him that he actually cares deeply for her as a friend, not just as a coworker and subordinate. Self-awareness doesn't come quickly or easily to Josh, so we just get to watch him struggle until someone slaps some reality into him.

Pam Nail

- Put up against the other Christmas episodes, this is probably the least strong for me (of four exceptional Christmas episodes so far). I have it ranked #8 for the season and #35 for the series overall. - I love that we got that brief mention of Danny in the previous episode, which I have to think was Sorkin setting us up for his return here. That slow push-in shot with him telling the cricket story is AMAZING, and I love that he's the one who brings this plot to a new stage. He was always the one in the press room who was after more than just the info from the briefings (e.g., wanting to know who was in charge after the shooting instead of getting lost in the Breaking News of the shooting itself). - The actor is great but I am not happy to see Claypool again (we last saw in in season one, episode 11 when Josh almost punches him). Him calling Andy's pregnancy a "disability" makes me want to summon Josh to manhandle him all over again. [rot13 for spoilers] - "V qba'g xabj ubj gb srry nobhg guvf thl lrg." LBH JVYY. Ubb, obl, urer jr tb jvgu Wrna-Cnhy. - V'z tynq ng yrnfg gung Wbr naq Xriva frrz jvyyvat gb jnvg naq frr ba Wbfu naq Qbaan. V xabj gurl'er cebonoyl guvaxvat nobhg jung bgure fubjf unir qbar jvgu n cybg yvxr guvf, ohg V guvax gurl zvtug or cyrnfnagyl fhecevfrq. V qb unir gb obttyr gung gurl guvax vg'f whfg abj fgnegvat gb unccra, gubhtu. Wbrl Yhpnf xarj gur fpber onpx va frnfba gjb.

Aaron

1. Yes, you should absolutely react to Mr. Robot, that's not even a question. 2. The West Wing Weekly podcast for this episode included a couple of members that were part of the actual Whiffenpoofs featured singing. I know you guys don't listen to it, but it's a neat episode of the podcast to checkout.

Michelle Taylor

I do not believe that the relationship between Josh and Donna revolves around romantic feelings. Josh, despite his brilliance, exhibits emotional immaturity, possibly stemming from the early loss of his sister and father on a day he had hoped to earn his father's pride. I think Josh sees Donna as a special person in his life, and he's kind of scared of losing her without even realizing it.

Kelsey Krehbiel

It was a group of actual Whiffenpoofs who performed for this episode!

D Gyre

No Spoilers, You'll have to see how Josh and Donna plays out, how much they do or don't get into it, but I do feel like at this point more people were rooting for them to get together, and had already been thinking there was something between Josh and Donna already. That might have been somewhat a product of the times, with more of an expectation than today that characters like that should get together. I don't know if its truly a majority or not, but definitely a LOT of people wanted them to get together and liked the idea of that.

D Gyre
>>132733532

see I'd thought they were hinting at the two of them, especially Donna having a crush on Josh, for a couple of seasons now, basically since they did her back story of how she got on the campaign and her ex boyfriend and everything. Then you have Amy saying she "heard" he was dating his assistant, which felt like it was implying people had picked up on the romantic tones between them. Not saying I wanted that angle, but I definitely felt like the show had been sending those signals for a while at this point.

Weird Magic

THANK YOU GRANT! They kept arguing with me over on YouTube that they were huge spoilers for these guys! Trust the show is the best thing everybody above has said. However the plot takes us... Sbe W&X, Wbfu naq Qbaan jba'g ubbx hc hagvy Nhthfg sbhegu bs gjragl-gjraglsvir (erzbivat ahzoref sebz EBG13 :)), znlor gurl jvyy or BX jvgu vg ol gura :) I love this episode, the Holy Night song at the end gives me goosebumps every time, and multiple times during the episode. Originally airing on December 11, 2002, 'Holy Night' is Episode 11 of Season 4 of The West Wing. It is the 77th episode overall and has an IMDB rating of 8.1, placing it as the #10 ranked episode of this season and #50 out of all the episodes shown so far. We are officially half done! Estimated completion date of 9/15/25

Joy M
>>132730992

I saw the Whiffenpoofs in Denver in January (I think) and they were great. In 2020, they started adding women to the group.

Joy M

I don’t get the whole thing with the Justice Dept skit. Were they mocking Toby for having a father who was a criminal? Did they know he was in the WH at the time? Just seemed out of place, maybe there was more to it and it was edited for time??

Roland Cooke

> A Bourbon and Branch is simply bourbon whiskey with plain water. When a whiskey is ‘cut’ (i.e. watered down) prior to bottling, the water that is used is very important to the final product. The preferred source of water is called "branch water". Branch water comes directly from the stream that the distillery is built on; some companies even bottle this water, so that bar customers can further dilute their bourbon with the original bourbon water. This branch water starts its life in the underground limestone shelf that exists under most of Kentucky and part of Tennessee. The limestone shelf acts as a natural filter for water that passes over it. Branch water is particular for its lack of character, with no traces of iron or other minerals that would be harmful to the whiskey-making process. <

Baeziii
>>132734603

You think this is a weaker Christmas episode than Bartlet for America, or you think overall, out of the four episodes that happen during Christmas, this is the weakest one?

Youtalkingtome
>>132730436

That's really well said. Like I said, I'm game for whatever the show throws our way. I have faith in the writers. I've seen clips from Mr. Robot out of context. All I know is that it has been compared to Fight Club

Youtalkingtome
>>132734603

I loved this episode. It felt like a nice nod to Noelle having Adam Arkin be in it. Claypool can get his ass whooped any day of the week for my money.

Youtalkingtome
>>132735525

Oh, we're gunna listen to that pod like crazy when we finish the show! We'll keep you guys updated when we do!

Youtalkingtome
>>132736047

I really like that. I hope that's what it is. Yes, his sisters passing informs so much of who he is. I really hope that it's protective big brother and not jealous boyfriend.

Youtalkingtome
>>132742089

I watched a documentary on the history of bourbon during the pandemic. I personally love bourbon. I am really picky though. I much prefer it to scotch.

Mithroch

Man... I just always thought there was a subtle relationship there between Josh and Donna... especially on Donna's side. "If you were in an accident, I wouldn't stop for red lights."

Jack
>>132736047

There are definitely romantic feelings implied. Things like "I wouldn't stop for red lights", the stories which she thinks make her sound crazy but that Josh says would make him like her, multiple characters implying that they've heard rumours about them or are picking up a vibe (including in this episode with both Jack Reece and Leo mentioning it). I will say that at this point in the story I think things could go in any direction, perhaps the writers are deliberately keeping multiple options available to them, but you can also definitely see why some viewers pick up a romantic chemistry.

Cosmic Slice

One of my favourite shows that Christian Slater did that was *highly* underrated was The Forgotten. Absolutely loved that show...

NOam Gold-Utting

So, without spoiling whether it actually happens or not, Janelle Maloney has said many times that from the pilot on her internal character motivation while playing Donna is that she is absolutely head over heels in love with Josh.

JVTrickypants

Sorkin absolutely made the Christmas episodes special. I can't remember if he said it or the actors did, but there would be a "this is your turn for the Emmy" mentality when the actor's character would be the focus of these episodes. One of the most heart melting moments in award show history to me is when John Spencer won the Emmy. Not to mention the fact he was up "against" Dule, Richard Schiff, and Bradley Whitford just from his own show....but watch the absolute JOY from them all when John won, Martin, Bradley, all of them....I get misty watching it again now. Also such a great speech as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUqsqIJrLkI

JVTrickypants
>>132739760

Bugsy Siegal (Vegas of course) and Meyer Lansky pretty much created organized crime with Charles "Lucky" Luciano (called The National Crim Syndicate originally). They soon disbanded (I think Luciano got deported) and Siegal and Lansky created Murder Incorporated. Also, Lansky is 1000% the basis for Hyman Roth from The Godfather II. He was very much the financial brains that really expanded the mob's reach.

JVTrickypants

This of course doesn't take anything away from the first Christmas episode with Toby, "In Excelsis Deo", but like you guys I watched the show in order and that was the first episode that REALLY hit/crushed me. Not to overstate it, but the first time really good writing in a show hits you hard it's somewhat similar to a first love. Always going to be a bit of a soft spot in your heart. It's why so many of us love watching reaction videos. We've seen these episodes so many times, and for years have made friends and family watch it with us, and being able to get a bit of that spark/joy/amazement we got when we saw it first is the vicarious thrill seeing your first reaction - why also it's really crappy if people post spoilers!!! (Use rot13.com and we can chat about it without spoiling anything - #TheGoodPlace lol). This was years ago (#old), but my favorite English teacher in high school talked about an interview one of the preeminent Shakespeare scholars gave. When asked what he wanted others to really understand about Shakespeare, he said basically (paraphrasing of course), "Don't take for granted the first time you experience the works. If I could do anything, I wish I could go back and read all of his stuff over again for the first time. Nothing has ever come close." I jokingly equate that mentality to something like the first hit of heroin (not me, just heard - probably from Trainspotting) that addicts are constantly trying to chase and recreate. Anyway, in the nicest possible way, you guys are doing a great job giving us a pretty good facsimile of our first "hit" of The West Wing lol.

JVTrickypants

Last thing and then I'm going to shut up and watch the episode with you guys, but yeah, Christian Slater basically from the beginning of his career sounded like he was doing a Jack Nicholson impression. I don't know if it was intentional, but his voice and even his eyebrows are eerily similar.

Youtalkingtome
>>132842377

I love that we can be that for you guys. I certainly know what you're talking about. Getting to watch this show weekly for the first time and having no idea where it goes will stick with me. The fact that we can talk to so many passionate fans of the show and have you guys give us insight as well, is seriously so rewarding

Youtalkingtome
>>132842703

It's uncanny. I wonder if Jack used to know his mom back in the day lol. In all seriousness, I really do love Christian Slater. He has had a great career and I wish it was bigger!

JVTrickypants
>>132735525

I would be totally for doing some kind of "listen along" when you guys do check it out because there's so many great interviews. This spoils nothing, but when Richard Schiff talked about the first season Christmas episode he cried probably four or five times - which Bradley Whitford then came on and coined the phrase "I'm getting emotional, but I'm not going to 'Schiff' all over the mic." Then again, I also would be up for you guys doing a RE-watch, because even though you may know the ending, it's no less emotional and lets you catch so much that's easily missed because of the density of the writing.

Cosmic Slice
>>132789434

ABC but as far as I can tell, you can't stream it anywhere which is tragic. It was a crime drama with a really creative take.

Katie

There is a lot I want to say about Donna and Josh but just how I feel about it, it is weird but it's also ok. I've seen shows handle stuff like this much worse. I think you can trust the show with this for sure.