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The West Wing, Season 2, Episode 20 (Patreon)

Published:
2023-07-12 12:00:03
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

The Fall's Gonna Kill You

Files

Previews only

The West Wing, Season 2, Episode 20

Comments

Jeff

Because Aaron Sorkin used political consultants from previous presidential administrations when writing this show, he was able to incorporate accurate depictions of the behind-the-scenes machinations during political scandals, specifically Reagan's Iran-contra scandal in the 80s, and Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky in the 90s. There are always the questions of who knew what, when did they know it, how much did they try to cover it up, and who should be considered culpable. Sorkin, as usual, brilliantly addresses all the nuances and layers of these complex situations. In addition, everyone working in the administration is simultaneously trying to do their job every day and keep the country running while everything is crumbling around them. It's a good reminder that these are all just ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances.

Pam Nail

There's no way the show was going to show us all these characters finding out about the MS, but that's an itch that fanfiction was born to scratch. I've thought about writing those "missing moments" myself many times (preferably in screenplay form), but I always tell myself it should be done by someone with much more legal and political knowledge than I have. This is kind of a lull for me in the final arc of the season, but it's still incredibly compelling. My biggest complaint is that Donna gets saddled with a comic relief plot that makes her look like a ditz. It's often her job to be comic relief, but the way they set this up, with everyone "getting it" but her offends me on her behalf. The poll idea is interesting because once the truth comes out, those people who were polled obviously will know exactly what that was about. I think the show does a good job of showing why the staff (and POTUS) would be wary of a poll, but also showing why some would feel it could yield some valuable information (Toby's point about which is more surmountable -- the capability problem or the dishonesty problem -- is especially well done).

Weird Magic

President (#of pardons) | RANK FDR (3,687) | 1 Wilson (2,480) | 2 Truman (2,044) | 3 Obama (1,927) | 4 Coolidge (1,545) | 5 Others since Nixon: Carter (566) | 20 Clinton (459) | 21 Ford (409) | 23 Reagan (406) | 24 Trump (238) | 29 G.W. Bush (200) 31 G.H.W. Bush (77) | 39 Full list here: https://potus.com/presidential-facts/pardons-commutations/

Weird Magic

Originally airing on May 2, 2001, 'The Fall's Gonna Kill You' is Episode 20 of Season 2 of The West Wing. It is the 42nd episode overall and has an IMDB rating of 8.4, placing it as the #13 ranked episode of this season and #23 out of all the episodes shown so far.

Gayle Dick

I love how realistic the reactions from the President and Abby are, when they being questioned by anyone (from 17 People ep on) about the MS or withholding info. Snippy, stubbornly denying the gravity, belligerent. No matter how contrite or ashamed you feel underneath, it can very hard for anyone to admit they made a mistake, and seems so natural that they would act this way.

Balazs Foldes

This's a quality episode. Very depressing and tense one, as it tries to be. I just realized, the "should know" vs "need to know" thing is a brilliant example of a typical Sorkin writing tehcnique. Babish asks, CJ avoids, Babish repeats, CJ asks back, Babish explains, CJ answers. Then, much later, CJ brings it up again with the First Lady, she explains the issue, they discuss, CJ brings up an apparently random story (about the injection), then circles back to the 'should' vs 'need to' question. And concludes: she did not tell the truth to Babish, she knows exactly she uses 'need to', and she indeed had a supicion and some information about the President being ill. The great writing trick here is the repetition forced on you. They repeat the words like four-five times, come back to it. Not appearing to be preparing for a big hit, coming up with an apparent conclusion (wow, these lawyer cross-questioning sessions are tough). And then they come back to it like 30 minutes later, and it hits with a much more forceful impact: CJ is worried, she has some guilt in some things, and she feels really bad about it, and mulls over it internally. A bit like in the Ainsley episode, when she accidentally gave out confidential information, and kept it to herself. So, it's a great trick to make sure you remember the exact issue, you remember the words, but do not expect that it will be coming back. Really interesting.

Balazs Foldes

Oh, maybe it's because English is not my first language, I may need some help with the ending. The Chinese satelite, and Josh's remarks in the very end. (17,000 object came back, not one person was hit, 'so I suppose there's an argument to be made we are due'. From the music and the context, it feels like he is sharing some interesting facts that should come as a relief? But, the last sentence, like seems to mean something more pessimistic to me. "Look, so many things are falling from the sky, it's only a matter of time before people get killed - and the MS issue may destroy us politically as well'? So, I guess my question to y'all is: what is the exact meaning of Josh's parable here, what is his message? WHat is he trying to say?

Balazs Foldes
>>112745314

Maybe they will just have the CIA kill all the respondents. Solves the issue of the polling news getting out!

David
>>112753547

You've pretty much got it; Josh tells the story and it's meant as an example of a situation that seems very bad but is actually not a big problem. It's meant to come across to CJ and the audience as a reassurance. Josh's line at the end about being due, while superficially a remark about the satellite story, is much more of an admission (to himself as much as to CJ) that the MS issue is just as big of a problem as it seems.

Luca Siracusa (Bob)

The show could've shown us every reaction to Bartlet explaining he has MS to the staff, but it did much more, he showed us the different phases you have after that Toby has the burst of denial that turns into anger at the actual moment CJ is the anger petty and very irritable, but also just surrended to the fact they're getting destroyed Josh is in bargaining: he's doing everything he can to negotiate about it Leo is full on acceptance and just wants to move on, ready to be there for Jed But nobody is changing their position as of now. The team we once saw that close has so many different opinions about the MS that they face each other about it like Josh and CJ at the end CJ also critiques both Leo and Jed for thinking about the poll and not the actual misinformation: she's the closest of them all to the public and she has the reaction every intelligent people in the US would have: she just doesn't trust the politics around it and doesn't know what to do Josh, as the great political mind and his deputy Chief of Staff role, tries to talk to her and working around the Satellite thing to tell her "maybe it's gonna be okay" It's okay if you don't agree with a character here, it's okay if you maybe don't agree between yourselves about the situation, it's alright. But let me tell you: we are going up, up, up, up, up, up and up The fall's gonna kill you? Let's see if that's true

jimmy2k4o .

Satellites don’t crash because they’re designed with special no heat protected pieces so when it ultimately falls into a decaying orbit it essentially vaporizes from the heat of re-entry into earths atmosphere. This isn’t a lucky accident the guys that launched these satellites (even the communists) knew what goes up might come back down, a rumour started by a British fellow called newton. When people talk about the men behind the Apollo missions we’re standing on the shoulders of geniuses we’re true, and that human chain led back to that apple tree in kings college Cambridge 340 years ago. That one giant leap for mankind can be meant in two way. Not just a leap from 1969 the future but the giant leap stretching millennia into the past. RIP commander Armstrong command module pilot Collins and lunar module pilot aldrin I hope lives much longer (punching moon denying rude idiots sun the jaw jk)

Jack
>>112747465

The question isn't how many people they pardoned, but whether those pardons were sincere, or were simply political allies being pardoned to cover up the president's wrongdoing.

Riesling

Sorkin once told in an interview, that he didn´t really realize what a big deal the whole "the president has MS and it´s a secret" is when he first wrote it. He just wanted to introduce the first lady as a strong and independent character and thought it would be nice to make her a doctor. And then he had the idea to introduce her by making her rush home to check on the president who fell ill and noone knows that it could be something serious. So Sorkin went to his research guys and asked them to find a serious illness with symptoms which could also pass as harmless. And when the researchers came back with MS he just said ok and wrote the episode. Only after the airing of episode 1x7 when the reactions came in and everyone was discussing the consequences of the presidents MS diagnosis, he realized the extend of what he had done. And also he knew from the begining that he had to deal with this secret later on, Sorkin had to ask himself the question „what does it mean that the president has MS?“ while writing season 2.

Devon Cooper

Another great reaction! It’s fun to watch you guys just starting up the hill of this roller coaster😉 wish you guys could do 2 a week lol. But I also know these take time to do. Great job guys!!!

Sarah P

Have you have you guys watched the finale yet? I know it didn’t sound like you were doing that today, but because I overthink/worry about things, I ask because there’s a piece of praise I want to give you about the finale, and was going to drop it in as close to it as possible. (No spoilers, no details, just a nice piece of praise for the quality.) It’s still nice to know if I drop it after, but . . .

MarkyO

I didn't realize how much I loved Joey Lucas until today

Aude M
>>112774072

Umm..FYI, Michael Collins died 2 years ago. Buzz is still alive and kicking at 93yo, and married his 4th wife just recently though. :p

Aude M

I don't know if you gonna read this, but I'd like to share a bit of Trivia for you : In France, we did had 2 similar situations in real life in the 20th century : - President Georges Pompidou died while in the exercise of his duties in 1974 (his mandate should have ended in 1976). When he was a candidate, he was not ill yet though. He fell ill around 1972 or 1973 maybe. "Pompidou died in office in 1974 of Waldenström's disease, a rare form of blood cancer" (Wikipedia). - President François Mitterand : he got 2 mandates of 7 years each (1981-1995). According to Wikipedia, "In 1992, following a surgical operation, it was revealed that the President of the Republic had prostate cancer. In the months that followed, rumors swelled and it was revealed that François Mitterrand knew he had cancer since 1981.". In 1984 though, he was in remission. And without consulting his doctors, he declared himself as a candidate anyway for the 1988 campaign. That he won. BUT the President's cancer reawakened again at the start of 1990. "The intensity of the pain made François Mitterrand think of resigning, and he, according to his adviser Laurence Soudet, wrote his resignation. In mid-June 1990, the President decided to partially reveal the truth in the health bulletin at the end of July. He tells Gubler that he may resign in August. To prepare the French psychologically, he decides to let a few innuendos filter through the health bulletin; the document suggests that the President is very tired and that he will soon carry out examinations.". So he...lied but not really ? It's kind of complicated. But there were a lot of debates back then of should he have told the whole truth / was he even up to the job, etc. (but technically, his problems always began WHILE he was in office, not when he was a candidate). But he never resigned, he remained in office until the end of his mandate. He died 7 months later. About François Mitterand, there is A LOT to say ! I won't even talk about the fact that he had MANY mistresses and had an illegitimate daughter that he hide to face of the public until it was revealed by paparazzis just 1 year before he left office.^^

Kelsey Krehbiel

I can't wait for you guys to listen to the podcast for this episode! They have an interview with Marlee Matlin and her real life interpreter (Jack Jason, he's been with her for 30+ years!) and they talk about all the work and thought that went into playing Joey and Kenny. It's fascinating!

Youtalkingtome
>>112753019

It's such complex writing that it really keeps you guessing and wondering. What are they leading to? Either way it's going to be explosive.

Youtalkingtome
>>112767361

Man, we are in it now. I'm not making any judgements right now because I wanna see how this concludes. We pretty much gave our thoughts on the morality of it in the previous episode.

Laura Dawson

I could watch Oliver Platt peel potatoes and be entertained, he’s such a charismatic and intelligent actor, but holy moly he’s fantastic in this. The way Babbish deals with all the defensive, snippy responses of CJ and Abbey, and manages to press upon them how serious the situation is, is a masterclass in great writing and great acting. His delivery of his lines is perfect. As ominous as Toby’s ‘I’ll be here when you finish’ may sound, I can absolutely understand why he says it to CJ and Sam. At the end of 17 People we saw Toby find out about the MS and then have to sit in a room with a bunch of his friends, none of whom he could confide in. That must have been pretty awful and isolating, and he wants to make sure it doesn’t happen to them, so he makes himself available for them to speak to afterwards. I’m sure Sam will appreciate having someone to talk to after the meeting.

Youtalkingtome
>>113086645

Oliver Platt is so underrated. Always wondered why he didn't have a bigger career. Still a wonderful character actor and I'm glad he's on this show.