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The West Wing, Season 3, Episode 9 (Patreon)

Published:
2023-09-27 15:28:00
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

The Women of Qumar

Files

Previews only

The West Wing, Season 3, Episode 9

The Women Of Qumar

Comments

JVTrickypants

Mary-Louise Parker got her part by calling Sorkin and leaving a voicemail that said, "I think Josh Lyman needs to get laid, and I'm the person to do it."

MrRuss50

Mary Louise Parker :)

Jeff

Another great CJ episode, with so many issues that don't have simple answers. In regards to the prostitution issue, all sides were addressed, except for the fact that prostitution is not only a women's issue; men also work as prostitutes around the world. So just one more factor in a complicated equation. There was a lot of discussion among Sorkin and the other writers and producers about creating the fictional nation of Qumar. Some felt that the show should remain rooted in the real world, placing these events in Saudi Arabia or a similar middle eastern country. But others felt that an imaginary country would provide them with more freedom to create whatever stories and events they wanted without being restricted by historical facts. While I love this episode, the next one is one of my favorites of the season, and actually of the entire series.

Paul T Hewes

"They're beating the women, Nancy." Allison deserved an emmy for that alone.

Kat Deuchars

I looked it up while watching this episode - Stockard Channing actually broke her ankle while hiking and they just wrote it into the show, rather than having to exclude her while she recovered

Roland
>>118480228

As wonderfully as that line is delivered, I actually enjoy Anna DeVeare Smith's SecDef response even more. So many ways that line could have been said differently...each probably worse.

Kelsey Krehbiel

For me, this was one of the times that the podcast made the most difference in how I view the issues in the episode. I've always been of the mind that prostitution should be legal, it should be a choice that people can make, like almost everything else. One of the podcast guests talked about the very real issues that make it much harder to find and protect people who are being forced into prostitution when prostitution is legal. Apparently, it is not uncommon for a brothel to have sex workers who are there voluntarily, as well those as people who are being forced. Sometimes, you may not even be aware that your coworker is there against their will. That makes it so much harder to investigate, much less prosecute trafficking cases. It was a fascinating listen. I know you guys are waiting until you finish the series to listen, but I hope when you do you tell us about it! There are so many really wonderful interviews with both cast and real life experts that add such new dimension to the show.

Kelsey Krehbiel
>>118500148

One more podcast tidbit! They did a special episode with Lin-Manuel Miranda about the aspects of The West Wing that inspired Hamilton, and that gesture that Toby does in this episode, the hands over the heart, is one Lin copied during his time as Hamilton, particularly on the night when he heard that Richard Schiff was attending!

Pam Nail

I’m probably in the minority here but I can’t stand this episode. It’s my least favorite Sorkin-penned episode and a bottom five for the series overall for me. The Qumar stuff is the least of my problems. Probably the less said the better but for me this is Exhibit A in Sorkin’s issues writing for and about women.

Youtalkingtome
>>118475550

Makes sense, it's an already political show no need to take shots at a real nation and cause a stupid issue.

MarkyO

When CJ said "In a time of crisis people should feel like soldiers"... that's exactly what I was saying about COVID. If only the then president spread the message to fight back against the "China virus" (as vulgar as it will be).. give his people a reason to pick up arms and a mask to do their part against the virus. It was so easy. It was such a softball and he let it sail by.

Jack

When it comes to prostitution it is complex because it is always a matter of degrees, as Josh and Amy acknowledge. We all agree that prostitution under direct coercion (i.e. rape) is wrong, and I think most would agree that things like modelling and massage are fine. But then what about nude modelling? What about stripping? What about OnlyFans? What about massages where the client is nude? What about massages where the masseuse is also nude? What about massages where the masseuse massages the client intimately, but keeps their clothes on? Or off? What about something like S&M where maybe a client and dominatrix remain clothed throughout, but where it's clearly sexual? All countries try to draw a line here, albeit sometimes a bizarre line like in the USA, where prostitution is illegal unless it is filmed and published on the internet. But we have to acknowledge that there is no clear line that everyone would agree on. Amy's final argument is that no little girl aspires to grow up and be a prostitute, which I'm sure is true, and that it is only driven by economic need: but that is true of *so many* professions. How many kids dreamed of becoming a worker in a sewage plant? Or being a telemarketer? Or being an exterminator? Or even an admin assistant? There are countless jobs that most people wouldn't want and no child would aspire to - people do them because they are driven by economic need. Short of restructuring the entire economic system, that is no argument for suggesting that people are forced to do those jobs, that they're slaves in some way. Personally I would say that, so long as a prostitute retains most of their earnings and has the opportunity to quit at any time, then they should be permitted to do that work. And the best way to ensure that those two conditions were being adhered to would be legalisation and tight regulation. Or you could just keep all the regulations around the adult film industry but open it up to say that a camera is no longer required!

Youtalkingtome
>>118521022

There's a lot that could have been done in 2020, unfortunately we are still dealing with the fallout of bigotry and idiocy of it all.

Youtalkingtome
>>118533720

I agree with what you just said, as long as people are safe and protected then it should be their right.

JVTrickypants

Allison Janney eventually started taking herself out of the Best Actress Emmy category so that other great actors on THIS SHOW could win, like Stockard Channing, Janel Malony, etc.

JVTrickypants

What I always come out with when people say Sorkin is anti-women....and connects of course with A Few Good Men and Demi Moore: An unnamed executive gave Aaron Sorkin a note: "If Tom Cruise and Demi Moore aren't going to sleep with each other, why is Demi Moore a woman?" He responded, "I said the obvious answer: Women have purposes other than to sleep with Tom Cruise." He claimed the incident was his worst experience as a screenwriter.

JVTrickypants

"I don't blame the wife, she has to go somewhere with her grief. The ones who should be horsewhipped with a horsewhip....lol"

JVTrickypants

Toby hands on heart is everything.

Weird Magic

I never thought about the "Sorkin can't write for women" thing until it was pointed out to me somewhat recently. On rewatches with that concept in mind - it does more often than it should appear that way. It isn't 100% and I don't believe it to be intentional, but I don't think it should be swept under the rug as insignificant overall. Originally airing on November 28, 2001, 'The Women of Qumar' is Episode 9 of Season 3 of The West Wing. It is the 53rd episode overall and has an IMDB rating of 8.0, placing it as the #15 ranked episode of this season and #42 out of all the episodes shown so far.

Youtalkingtome
>>118607294

I heard that too! I think why her performance isn't necessarily perfect in that movie isn't the screenwriting, it might just be miscasting. That movie is still an absolute masterpiece. Love it.

Youtalkingtome
>>118629573

I really do think some of his best work is as good as anything ever written, but it can be tough. The same could be said for many screenwriters of his caliber. ie Tarantino.

Zachary Loeser

On the "Aaron Sorkin can't write women" theme: Look back at all of Sorkin's works and you'll note that a *troubling* percentage of main female characters in his works have or go by male/androgynous names. Few Good Men: Jo (sounds like Joe, short for Josephine) American President: Sydney Sports Night: Dana The West Wing: CJ Studio 60: Harry (short for Harriet) The Newsroom: Mac It's kind of like he can only create female characters if he thinks of them as men first.

D Gyre

I think something that has shifted from this time is that there can be legal prostitution, or at least a broader legal 'sex worker' movement. The arguments in the show are absolutely valid and trafficking and exploitation are still major problems that we don't spend nearly enough resources on. But I think if this were written today there'd be a much more vocal side against labeling/prosecuting ALL prostitution/sex work as illegal, not just as an issue for allies in Europe but for citizens in the US. There are people today who ARE open about sex workers and choose to be that as a career over other options.

Youtalkingtome
>>119010581

That's totally fine too! I'm pro "mind my own business" as long as no harm is done to others, it's not my business as to how someone earns their living.

Luca Siracusa (Bob)

This is such a difficult and strong episode about the whole Qumari situation and the prostitution, those are topics that tends to split the audience and the world on how they should be resolved and this show doesn't say "This is the absolute right thing to do", it says "We think this is the way to deal with it for now" The last minutes about CJ breaking in front of Nancy and Toby telling her from the distance he's sorry, really leave a somewhat sweeter taste in my mouth, but the episode is still bitter and hard to define