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The West Wing, Season 3, Episode 16 (Patreon)

Published:
2023-11-15 14:08:51
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

Dead Irish Writers

Files

Previews only

The West Wing, Season 3, Episode 16

Dead Irish Writers

Comments

MrRuss50

Should you watch The Wire? YES! Its the Goat of TV shows. Masterpiece storytelling that nothing compares to.

D Gyre

The acting on this show is so good. Imagine going into that room to try to hold your own in a long scene with Stockard Channing...and then being told you have to admonish her! Channing still owns the scene but props to Janel Moloney for her part.

Jeff

This episode was Sorkin dialogue at its best. This one hour has so many quotable lines. And it's amazing that a moment of humor can turn to a moment of deep emotion within a few seconds. When you mentioned not knowing British history, I thought of the great series "The Crown". I'm not sure if it's exactly your "cup of tea", but you might consider watching at least the first season. Amazing acting and directing.

Weird Magic

Episode counts: Presidential Coat Flips = 1 Gerald! = 5 Warroad MN, AKA Hockeytown USA - pretty sure it was never moved into Canada LOL Very intricate writing on this one, like the scene where Toby and Lord Marbury are quoting Poets - Toby quotes the British ones and Marbury quotes the Americans. Originally airing on March 6, 2002, 'Dead Irish Writers' is Episode 16 of Season 3 of The West Wing. It is the 60th episode overall and has an IMDB rating of 8.2, placing it as the #7 ranked episode of this season and #32 out of all the episodes shown so far.

Shawn Looney

I'd also love to see you guys react to The Newsroom and talk about why it didn't work as well as The West Wing.

Pam Nail

YES, YOU SHOULD WATCH THE WIRE! *ahem* Yes, you should watch it, and like with this show, I'd recommend watching with subtitles/closed captioning. Lots of dialogue, lots of accents, and lots of professional jargon to keep track of. This episode is a low-key favorite for a lot of people, and I love it. It's right about the middle of my rankings (#86 overall, #10 for the season), but only because I love so many other episodes even more. Love the "controversial yet brave" moment with Donna, and I think another thing having Donna say it does is underscore that a lot of other people in the White House (and in the country at large) feel roughly the same way. The "ditch story" is an ooooold anecdote that goes back I don't know how far. Variations of it have been used by the Obamas, the Clintons (which is the version that probably inspired its use in this episode), and the Bushes (Sr. and Jr.).

David

100% think you would love The Wire and we would all appreciate your thoughts on it. Also would recommend The Good Place go on your radar if you haven't seen it yet; another quality (though not on the level of The West Wing or The Wire) show.

Chris

Yes to The Wire

Martin Nicholls

They remembered to bring the funny with this one. Not to build it up but I like the next episode quite a lot..

Balazs Foldes

Brilliant episode (what were the odds, eh?). I really love it. I love the melancholy, I love the clever wordplays, I like the emotional strikes, I like the truths. Yeah, the Abbey part really reflects what you mentioned in the episode about the censure: we have a tribal mentality, and it's so easy to just root for 'your guy' (gal, in this case), and not even consider whether what you fight for is fair or not, right or wrong. You just want your guy to win. I don't think everybody is just tiptoeing around Abbey because they don't want to hurt her: they just love her, and their mind just wants to find a way for her to win this one, as opposed to considering that she had mistakes. Donna is the simple person who can see the truth.

Roland

First the easy stuff: The Wire should be high up on your viewlist - it was prestige TV before it was a thing. And I (re)support the call for The Good Place as your next comedy series, possibly the finest writing for any show (not just comedies) in the past five years. + Next: the Large Hadron Collider successfully confirmed the existence of the previously-theoretical Higgs Boson. Watch one of the many twenty minute video histories about it, it's crazy interesting. There's still so much we don't know, I believe the LHC is expected to continue to provide us with insights for decades to come. + Finally.....The Troubles. I grew up in mainland England during the worst of it...and it seemed a million miles away. It must have been very different for the people living in Northern Ireland. Every now and again an incident would come close to home (Hyde Park, Warrington, Harrods, Brighton). Would the Troubles have ceased without the Americans? Doubtful, certainly not anytime soon. Huge credit needs to go to a lot of people...including people long labelled as terrorists. Having an honest broker that was understood to genuinely want to support both sides was so important. (That's one of the problems with the (current) Palestinian situation, most of the Arab world thinks the USA only cares for Israel, whether that's true or not). One of the phrases that was used (and referenced in this episode) was "putting weapons beyond use". The IRA would never surrender, but couldn't win. The British government wanted a permanent peaceful resolution, but couldn't openly negotiate with armed terrorists. So what to do? Somebody came up with the brilliant idea of throwing all the IRA guns into a bunker and filling it up with cement, witnessed by trusted intermediaries including a priest. It didn't matter that the IRA could re-arm pretty easily, it was the gesture that was critical. It allowed the IRA to keep face, while enabling the British government to move its hitherto secret negotiations into the daylight. Of course some hated the whole thing (see Continuity IRA, Omagh bombing), and I see various stuff still bubbling up every now and again even today. (That attempted sabotage was later mirrored by the people that needed the Palestine-Israel agreements to fail: Hamas, extreme right-wing Israelis, etc). Fortunately in the case of Northern Ireland the fanatics failed for the most part (though Brexit caused a lot of angst that the fanatics would get a second wind - are you seriously suggesting that we put the hated border towers back up?!) + In relation to Brendan McGann... Bill Clinton granted Gerry Adams a visa to travel to the USA in 1994, this marked a massive milestone in peace efforts, and wasn't a decision taken without significant political risk. Martin McGuinness, once the highest-ranking member of the IRA, now Deputy First Minister of the Northern Ireland Assembly, was formally welcomed in the Oval Office in 2007 by George W Bush. In 2012 McGuinness shook hands with the Queen, whose uncle-in-law (Lord Mountbatten) McGuinness had assassinated. I would never have dreamed any of those things were possible. It took a lot of courage, a lot of outside help, and a lot - a lot - of time.

Balazs Foldes

One more thought about the Ireland-Brittain thing. I know it's a sketchy parable, also a very sensitive topic, and I certainly not wanting to sound insensitive, but: I think this thing also resembles the current conflict in Gaza, a little bit. Saying this while being from a mostly jewish family, and having quite a few relatives living in Israel (with sisters of my grandmom having moved to Israel from Hungary after WW2). So, the resemblence: IRA was definitely using terrorist tactics, just as Hamas does in Israel. But you can still understand that the Irish had some grievances, just as I think many Palastinians have had valid issues with their situation how they lived in Israel. And it's terrible that many of them saw no other alternative for fighting for their perceived justive then turning to terrorist actions. Which does not mean that they are or were right to do so: I don't think real terrorist actions can be justified. But it's a tragedy for both parties involved, and it's awful that such a spiral of violance is incredible difficult to stop. Apologies if this hurts anybody's feelings , it's certainly not a perfect analysis or paralel. Just thought it's something we can all understand better these days, as we see it happening in our lives, while IRA attacks have ended for a while.

Kat Deuchars

It would be cool to see you guys do "The Wire", once you have space on the timetable

Kat Deuchars

British viewer here! The problem with trying to understand the Ireland question (and what I think Marbury was getting at with the USA being young) is that it starts, roughly, in 1534 with Henry VIII re-conquering Ireland after breaking away from the Catholic church. So, it was a religious conflict from the start. Not only did the Tudors conquer the land but they tried to 'tame' Ireland by planting English settlers - kind of like Israeli settlers occupying Palestinian territory. Then, there's the times that the British government let the Irish go hungry, most notably in the Irish Potato Famine but also in the early months of 2021, after Brexit was finalised, when apparently they overlooked the fact that Northern Ireland's food supply would be affected by the new layers of red tape. The British government might not bomb Ireland but it still does violence to however much of Ireland it owns at any given time.

Skinny_Obelix
>>122278237

I really don't like when people in English speaking world use the name Higgs Boson. It completely dismisses the others who predicted the particle. François Englert and Robert Brout were the first to publish their paper. Then Higgs and then Guralnik, Kibble and Hagen. All with parallel research based on a paper from 1962. Englert won the Nobel along with Higgs, Brout didn't get the Nobel because he had passed away by then and the Nobel doesn't get awarded posthumously. Guralnik, Kibble and Hagen didn't get the Nobel because the prize doesn't get awarded if 3 people colaborated.

Skinny_Obelix

Yes, you should do the Wire. I would never have suspected you hadn't seen that before. So while we're here, other series I assume you've watched, but should be on the list if not: Band of Brothers and Chernobyl.

Sardonica61

So, the origin story for Amy Gardner coming onto the show is that the actress herself called Aaron Sorkin, left a voicemail: "This is Mary Louise Parker. Josh Lyman badly needs to get laid, and I'm the one to do it." They are fun to watch together. It works. Parker was nominated for an Emmy for this role. I love these huge scenes like the party tonight. It is authentic to the scale of events around the actual President. Bartlett speaking on a college campus, a swanky fundraising dinner, crowds outside an event. Even twenty people coming out of a room after a meeting, a full table in the Situation Room, all the background people in the offices. I'm glad they didn't skimp on extras. And I love seeing the characters dressed up.   This is the third night-time episode in a row. Not sure why I want to point that out, but it's not the usual workday weekday pace, there's a different quality to the interactions.

Devon Cooper
>>122260080

It is still a great show! I loved it. The guys should definitely do that one as well. Sooo good!

Devon Cooper
>>122256612

The Crown and The West Wing in my opinion are the best drama/political shows ever!!! Even though the crown is a drama, I think they get it right 85% of the time. Of course, we are not going to know the actual discussions that were had but I’ve studied British history and the monarchy for years and it is sooo good! Joe and Kevin, please watch the crown next. It will also give you the historic timeline you are looking for and it is a beautifully shot series, just amazing. Right up there with the WW 👍🏻👍🏻

MarkyO

Any episode with Lord John Marbury is my favofite episode

Sarah P

I love the moment when we see Toby and LJM meet. When you realize that, “Oh yeah, they’re both into whiskey and nuance!” you KNOW their thing is going to be a great time! I agree, this whole episode is fantastic! As a woman, it’s interesting to me that I’ve seen multiple male writers do the “and then our primary female characters have a girls’ night” trope, to varying effects. This one RULES! It shows that, while Aaron Sorkin does have ways in which he falls down with female characters, he is also fully capable of sometimes completely nailing it.

JVTrickypants

The West Wing won the Best Drama Emmy for the first four seasons. At one point James Gandolfini, The Sopranos losing each time of course), said something like "I don't even know why we show up." Joshua Malina said to somebody, "Huh, I could of sworn he played Tony Soprano.....not Big Pussy." TBradley Whitford says he tell everybody he said it and not Josh Malina (who while not on the show at the time has been friends with them all for years).

Youtalkingtome
>>122262618

Donna really did steal this episode, from her moment with The First Lady to the Oh, Canada moment. Just a great Donna episode!

Martin Nicholls
>>122287853

The Brexit thing isn't a function of Brexit but a misreading of the GFA; mostly imposed by the EU inter alia somebody decided that keeping the EU and UK tied together despite the fact it is entirely impractical. It never had to be like this. Good news is eventually Northern Ireland is going to get to vote to make it go away and when that is the case it will do so.

Youtalkingtome
>>122278544

Didn't realize how precedent this episode would be going into it but it really is. It's a completely different situation while being eerily similar at the same time. What's the answer? Who rightfully knows. All we can do is hope and pray that the innocent lives involved stay safe!

Youtalkingtome
>>122300295

I love the extras as well. As I said in the episode, i'm a sucker for big ball room scenes. Just to be behind the scenes to watch that scene being filmed would be an absolute dream!

Youtalkingtome
>>122306223

This one rocks! If anyone wants to criticize his take on women I would gladly point them to this episode.

Youtalkingtome

That's too funny! If The Sopranos wasn't winning, I'm glad it was this show!

Jim Miller

You say in the video that you are 4 episodes ahead in the West Wing. Where can i find those episodes?

Youtalkingtome

We say that for the Youtube audience. We are 4 ahead here on Patreon.

Luca Siracusa (Bob)

I don't really have to tell you how beautiful it is for this show to open and close with Jed and Abbey as a couple. The two of them have never, never failed to portray their relationship into the show. They're bonded with love, respect and mistakes to be acknowledged. The setup of everything is always great: Donna NOT eating and just drinking is a great preparation for the alcohol to have an effect on her that fast and let that slip out of her mouth. Abbey continuously made fun of Jed in this episode, but never once you feel like she's true to herself. You sense she know she's wrong and she doesn't want to admit it. We were EXACTLY at the same point we were with Jed at the end of Season 2 A lot of snotty replies and trying to joke with aggressiveness to face what's coming. They really, really are a couple

Youtalkingtome
>>122413122

It's still crazy to me how real the relationships feel on this show. It's just perfect casting, perfect writing and perfect acting.

Jack

It's interesting, I've always interpreted the LJM double-meaning differently to you. It's possible that the distinction he was trying to convey was the one you inferred: that he was distinguishing between his personal opinion and that of his "boss" (the British government); but I've always inferred from the exact wording he uses again and again ("Brendan McGann cannot come to the White House") that he means that literally, and is drawing a distinction between talking to McGann ("you must talk to him") and hosting him at the White House, with all the symbolism that entails. My interpretation of their conclusion was that the Brits don't mind the US government negotiating with McGann, perhaps even publicly, but don't want to see him honoured.

Jack

As a Brit I would also like to add some history and commentary to the whole Irish thing. Honestly, as LJM said, Ireland is our original sin. We were in the wrong for 99% of the things which happened; admittedly this got a little blurrier in the last few decades of the 20th century, when the UK wasn't actively persecuting Ireland anymore but was subject to terrorist attacks, but if you look back for about 900 years before that it's nothing but British/English persecution of the Irish. There was a lot of direct abuse (for example Oliver Cromwell's conquest of Ireland killed somewhere between 15% and 50% of the native population, plus 50,000 sent to America as indentured labourers - you're welcome), but to me the craziest story is of the "Great Famine" (or "Irish Potato Famine"). Basically the Great Famine was exactly that: several years of crop failure resulting in the death by starvation of 1 million people and the emigration of at least another million. Ireland's population was reduced by around 25%, and the population is *still lower now than it was at the start of the famine in 1845*!! Even Britain's population in 1841 was only 18 million people, about double Ireland's, so Ireland losing 2 million was absolutely vast at the time. It would be the equivalent of the USA losing around 80 million people today. But that's not even the worst of it. The worst is that throughout the ~7 year famine, while 1 million people died in Ireland, every year huge amounts of food *continued to be exported from Ireland to Britain* (which was not in famine). So yeah, anyway, you can see why they were a little cross with us.

Youtalkingtome
>>122821326

I didn't even think of it that way. He does say it repeatedly and in a way that was very strange. That went right over my head.

Youtalkingtome
>>122825335

I don't know a lot about of Irish history. However I do know a little, if it wasn't for the potato famine my family wouldn't have came to America. Obviously no country is perfect, America is guilty of plenty. These are complicated issues and i'm glad this show is addressing so many. They don't shy away and I think it creates an important conversation.

Riesling

I love that Donna is the one telling Abbey the truth. They have no personal relationship and no dircect work relationship. If CJ had said this, it would seem she is looking out for the President. Amy always has her own Agenda and simply loves to provocate. So the fact that Donna has nothing to gain from telling the first Lady this harsh reality and does it anyway makes her words so much more powerful.

kosmickrab

Late to the party. Do The Wire! I'd like to do a rewatch.