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Top 10 Episodes - DS9 Season 2 (Patreon)

Published:
2025-11-30 23:57:37
Edited:
2026-11-01 04:53:14
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Collin Freeman

Diet TOS or Diet TNG… haha! I like that. You should patent that.

KingPin124

Well this was unexpected, but I’ll put it on 😅

Dan Here

I'm happy you reconized the acting talents of Terry and Siddig. After season one you were a litle disapointed if i remember right 🖖 Spolier, you're in for a ride 🤪

Matthew Ganz

Before the angry mob of people come in -- It's Jem - Hadar. Great takes!

TC Green

Dax is my favorite character of the main cast, but season 1 Dax is too reserved and dull. She really shows up in season 2. I think Jake and Nog are likeable because they are just normal kids and were absolutely rejections of the 80's "super kid" trend that Wesley was a part of.

Paul

To Alex, I'm convinced with the advent of quantum computing and AGI, we're on the precipice of biological immortality. Not in a magical sense. Not in the way that aging is halted. That avenue is almost impossible because there are so many mechanisms in the body that relate to each other, changing one aspect can cause unpredictable wonkiness in 10 others. But developing treatments for the byproducts of our body's processes that cause aging? There are 8 known aging pathways: Glycation Oxidation Inflammation Epigenetics Senescence Mitochondria Telomeres Mutation (can lead to cancer). That's in the order of easiest to fix (again only talking about repairing the damage or buildup so treatments would persist but if they do, you effectively wouldn't age). And the true key, as we begin to develop treatments for one, or two, etc... it extends our lifespan and overall health beyond the natural passage of time. Live a year? Expect to have over another year of extra lifespan left. This is called Lifespan escape velocity. So... biological immortality, where even Star Trek dared not delve for humanity, the fountain of youth. Right around the corner. Enjoy those TNG reruns guilt-free.

John

Every time I rewatch DS9 I don't SKIP the first two seasons, but I really only hit the highlights of Season 1 (not that many highlights) and it depends on my mood with Season 2, but I watch less than half of them. There are still some skips in Season 3-7, but far fewer than in Season 1 and 2. (Really, in Season 1 I watch the pilot, "Duet" and "In The Hands of the Prophets." There are some good episodes that I skip in both Seasons 1 and 2, but not that many. The first season, the show was really trying to be "The Next Generation 2.0." Nothing wrong with trying that, but they fail catastrophically. In Season 2 they start to get away from that a little bit, but many of the bad episodes come when they forget about it. There's more than a few episodes that I suspect were written for TNG and then hastily repurposed to DS9. Without TNG in the way, the show becomes its own thing in Season 3. Yes, TNG is great. I think DS9 is better. You may disagree. But we can all agree Voyager is not as good as either. (No spoilers, just... general feeling, and I recently rewatched Voyager... the edited highlights.)

Collin Freeman

Harv Bennett did watch the entire TOS run before making Wrath of Khan. Walter Koenig knew they had made an error, but it was such a good part that wasn’t going to speak up and correct them.

Mark Plemmons

I can’t wait until Januarrrrryyyy

Evan Guthrie

A word of advice on Voyager: Skip the first two seasons. Season 3 is where the show REALLY starts.

Trekkie74205

Just because Chekov wasn't assigned to the bridge crew in Season 1 TOS, doesn't mean he wasn't on the ship and ran into Kahn. lol

John

Okay, disclaimer... I love DS9. I really do. I'm glad it exists. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. DS9 as a concept was still stolen from Babylon 5 creator JMS. But, thankfully, the show is ALMOST as good as Babylon 5. Especially once it finds its legs. Took B5 eight episodes, took DS9 two seasons, but... we still get five really good seasons, one decent season and one bad season. From B5 we get four good seasons (first seven of Season one, and first 15 of Season 5 are kinda... meh.) and that's all. And those seasons are 22 episodes, not 26 episodes. The finale of Babylon 5 is... unbelievably good. Season 3 of Babylon 5 is the finest season of television ever. Season 4 is nearly as good. Season 2 is almost as good as Season 4. But later seasons of DS9 also make the top 10 list. Because the show is REALLY F***ING GOOD. If you're gonna steal someone's idea, at least do a good job of executing it. And they do accomplish that much. Oh, also, DS9 has Gul Dukat. There's no real comparable character on Babylon 5. So that's something that DS9 actually did better than B5.

Trekkie74205

Ronald D. Moore has said the TNG writers did start to get a little jealous because DS9 was doing "cooler things". On the other hand, VOY was an appealing prospect to many of the TNG staff. It wasn't a syndicated show like TNG and DS9. It was going to be the flagship show on a new network (UPN). Guess you will find out soon if Ron joined either show. I will make my prediction now. You guys will end up liking Voyager. It is hit and miss the first 2 seasons like all Berman Era shows. TOS got so good so fast, they made it look easy.

Kaleigh

I think you’ll find Voyager to be more meaty than “diet” trek. But be open minded to some similar ideas with a new twist or opinion.

Trekkie74205

I think DS9 is better too. Then again, that is like saying I like my right hand more than my left hand.

Evan Guthrie

"similar ideas with a new opinion" is such a perfect way to encapsulate Voyager.

Matchstick Jose

They envisioned Jadzia as Yoda mixed with Audrey Hepburn, and that was just not in Terry Farrell's wheelhouse. And writers like Robert Hewitt Wolfe have said they flat out didn’t enjoy writing that version of the character. The irreverent, life-of-the-party Dax suits Farrell a lot more and complements the other characters better, IMO.

penoyer79

babylon 5 was pretty rough out of the gate. even more so than TNG i think. but the story was there. B5 does have an equivelent to Dukat... but i will not say who to avoid spoilers. i'm sure you know who i am talking about.

penoyer79

there's a lot of that going around

penoyer79

The idea for this star trek show to be on a station near a worm hole came from another show called Babylon 5. the producers of star trek took offence to another sci fi show being successful... and they created DS9 (a big budget star trek brand version of Babylon 5) to put babylon 5 out of business. they failed because Babylon 5 turned out to be really good in its own right.

John

And I considered that, but when someone gets their wish.... That's why I don't equate them to Dukat. Or, if you're talking about someone else, 3x20 gets their dues. Both of them are messengers too. Wish fulfillment more so than dues. Dukat is the guy. We didn't really get "the guy" in B5, unless you count the man in between in the three finale. But possibly we don't get the guy because B5 is more subtle than DS9.

John

Word of advice. The seven seasons are worth it when it pays off in Lower Decks. I don't even know if you're watching the Paramount shows. I think you should, but I know a lot of people hate them, and a lot of people say "oh, they aren't real Star Trek." I disagree. I also didn't hate Discovery as much as a lot of people....

Trekkie74205

Deep Space Nine premiered nearly 2 months before the Babylon 5 pilot movie and a year before the Babylon 5 series.

Evan Guthrie

Jokes aside I quite enjoyed season 3 if I remember correctly

Ken R

The Circle was a real accomplishment for the show I feel. It was baby steps, dipping a toe in serialized storytelling that would come into fashion just a short time later with shows like LOST and The Wire There had been multi part episodes of series before, but this was something new for Trek.

tyranusfan

It does say something about Koenig/Chekov, it's difficult to look back at TOS and remember that he *wasn't* there the whole time.

Matchstick Jose

I always assumed the "joke" for Mirror Sisko is that Smile (pronounced oddly) is just Miles with the S moved to the front.

Some Guy

I wonder which movie was conceived of first, Deep Impact or Armageddon

Call ‘Em Greg

Yknow I actually have a hard time believing this story. Harve Bennett told two versions: the one where he watched every episode, and the one where he said “at the end of Space Seed, they basically say ‘I wonder what will happen with these super men’ and I stopped and said that’s it! That’s our movie!” Seeing as the episode was in Season 1, I have a feeling he did exactly that: stopped at Space Seed and never finished the rest. He was a busy producer after all.

Kaleigh

I actually think VOY season 1 is the strongest season 1 of the 80s/90s era shows.

D Jammers

Ohh God everyone shut up about Babylon 5

Loot Narsbaar

The reason Crossover was followed up on DS9 1) Post Naked Now through Sarek the TNG writers had to get special permission to reference TOS directly because they were trying to establish TNG as it's own thing. 2) Berman and Braga reportedly aren't big TOS fans

FubarPie

The studio had the show notes for Babylon 5 in their possession for a year before that while they considered JMS's proposal for the show, then they said "no thanks" and then announced a really similar show. Both shows are great but if you watch them both it's pretty clear that DS9 is a "knock off". But it's a "knock off" in the way that Apple doesn't do original products, just really good ones. They did an amazing show and took the idea to their own places and made it truly 'Star Trek'. That being said Babylon 5 is probably the greatest story ever told and one of the single best tv series out there so I hope I get to see the guys react to Star Trek and B5!

BN13

“Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger” - Babylon 5

BN13

I don't know, from what you were saying, you guys might want to get your "things we don't want to see in Trek" bingo card ready for Voyager. Then again, there's a lot of good stuff in Voyager too.

Actuarial Lurker

Josh- so you would love to see Ronald Moore involved with DS9.... If he were what do you think he would do with the characters?

Actuarial Lurker

Whenever I rewatch Voyager I always skip to Season 8, because that's when it really takes off...

Ryan

Ken R

Seeing as how one show tried to pack entertainment into every minute, and the other thought danger, action, story and stakes were things to be avoided in favor of everyone sitting around drinking tea, this isn't surprising.

BN13

Wouldn't Dukat be Dukat?

BN13

Voyager is a weird one where you can actually argue that seasons 1 and 2 are the best. But just like all Berman era Trek, it's iconic seasons that everyone knows as Voyager, are seasons 4-6/7, and season 3 is the transition season.

Loot Narsbaar

I'm picturing in my head all the enjoyment you got from season 7. I'm wondering if I'll be the Ken R of Voyager.

Loot Narsbaar

Also this is why I think season 3 of TNG is easily the best of the show. Worf still had his rough edges, Riker's story arc wasn't complete, terrorism united the Irish, there were conflicts with Romulans, Klingons, and Borg. The cast didn't look checked out... Don't get me wrong I love TNG, but I'm also very glad DS9 is an improvement on TNG.

xadg

Spoiler. Don't tell them to wait, let them be surprised.

D Jammers

So one of the creators of ds9 Rick Berman and Also the two creators of enterprise Berman and Braga aren't fans of TOS and the mirror universe. GOT IT

Heespharm

Regarding the data discussion, he did age if u go back to season one and side by side with season 7 and regarding his cat changing sex my mind canon is that he accidentally kills the cat and and he just names the next one spot… it’s dark but I find it funny

Summer

No with DS9 unless you watched every episode 8 times you have to watch the first two seasons, because even before they ‘figured it out’ there are a billion seeds ESPECIALLY in season 2, you have to watch it all then you see when they did really fail and really succeed. Unlike TNG, which you guys were excited to watch but didn’t love really till season 4 and then barely in season 5. And Voyager is good TNG was a buffet which Voyager is, DS9 is a story. I am also completely annoyed with the lack of Jake and Nog, I am glad you like them. While is season two Nog the character was equivalent to 17 the actor was 8 years older, Jake was created to give Sisko a family the writers may have been annoyed that he grew up. Sadly after years of watching writers from the 80’s and 90’s still refuse to read my mind now and by time mind reading do what I want. I do wish Voyager hadn’t started for another season

Loot Narsbaar

Can't really discuss this further without spoilers

Fedora The Explorar

I think they intentionally placed Chekhov there with the Khan reveal because its the best character for that scene and they knew that he wasnt in that season but thought id be an interesting addition to that lore to expand that he was an Ensign in Season 1. It is a type of retcon that improves the original show for me.

Ryan

The way Crossover threaded the needle between respecting what came before and having the guts to take it in a different direction feels like a good metaphor for everything DS9 is trying to do as a series. When that episode came out, we didn't have the Marvelverse and 5000 different iterations of the same universe, so I just assumed the universe we were seeing was the same one we saw in TOS. I remember feeling gratified and respected that they covered what we knew about Kirk and Spock and how Spock's actions got us here.

Jonathan Llyr

Interesting choices. I’m in total agreement with some and complete disagreement with some others. I find it interesting that you heap so much praise on Terry Farrell but then can’t bring yourselves to include Blood Oath. And I know you loved it but the inclusion of Melora is still a head-scratcher! And since you went on a bit of a TNG tangent I’ll also never understand your love of Gates McFadden’s acting ability. I always thought she was the weakest member of the cast.

Ian Westcott

I had an argument once with someone on Youtube who argued strenuously that if someone wasn't on camera in Season 1, then they absolutely were not on the Enterprise, full stop. He had "they were so stupid, they didn't know what they were doing" as a personality trait that anything that fed into that was elevated to 11, and anything that was a counterpoint was disregarded.

Jonathon Tsagris

rewatching this with you guys, There's definitely less Nog and Jake than I remembered. But I do like that they're always used well. To compare with TNG; Wesley was so poorly served as a character.

penoyer79

seems like they learned their lesson with Wesley.

Numinous2019

Thank you both for explaining so well (in your updated Why We Love Star Trek video) what your preferences are for ST episodes. I now understand why Alex was less than satisfied with the S2 finale. I misunderstood his initial reaction. While I appreciate what you are hoping for in episodes, DS9 also has to pay the bills. That means sometimes doing things that are intended to generate buzz and retain/attract viewers.

Numinous2019

I think it is McFadden's warmth that TNG fans respond to. Terry Farrell is similar. She's young and relatively inexperienced, but her own personal qualities are what the writers started to focus on.

penoyer79

TNG jumped at the chance to do another Naked Time but in 7 seasons never once revisted Mirror, Mirror? that's always been mindboggling to me. seems so obvious. one of the best episodes of TOS and so ripe for fleshing out.

Ryan

Yeah, that mystifies me too. It seems like it would have been the perfect way to get around the “our people don’t have conflicts” restriction in the early seasons. “Well, they’re not OUR people…”

Jonathan Llyr

Whatever warmth McFadden projects I personally think comes off as forced, but I’m in totally agreement with you about Farrell. She’s wonderful and manages to exude a peaceful calm and a measure of kindness as Jadzia that a being of her age and experience would no doubt possess. I’ve also interviewed her a few times and she was absolutely wonderful. When I interviewed Gates - well that was a different experience entirely.

TanyoScatto

honestly i think they're gonna like voyager MORE than ds9 b/c of what they prefer out of star trek, which is similar to how some of my friends like it more

TinMan_7B9

I would describe the "new twist" as just having fun with the similar ideas. If TNG is your typical plain cheese pizza, and DS9 is a truffle mushroom pizza with only the best herbs and spices, then Voyager is a pineapple pizza.

TinMan_7B9

All the Berman-era shows follow the same pattern: Season 1: Awkward ("I have no idea what I'm doing" dog meme) Season 2: Still awkward, but with some noticable improvements Season 3: A new approach results in even bigger improvements Season 4: They finally figured it out

Actuarial Lurker

Hence why they mocked the "kid genius" concept in Galaxy Quest....just have some kids on the show- that's good enough to see "Is a young Ferengi ruthless like his relatives?, "Can a senior officer who is a widower still raise his son?"- what we got with Worf and Alexander on TNG was also weird

Actuarial Lurker

Agree- since DS9 is serialized you have to judge if the S! and S2 episodes were really necessary for what comes later

Actuarial Lurker

I think Voyager gets a bad rap for two reasons: a) DS9 was so good when Voyager was in its earliest seasons one can hardly avoid the comparison between the two, b) Voyager falls short of its possibilities given its premise, characters and situation- it was an "OK show" when it COULD have been just as good as DS9 and the writers just blew it Its like watching a minor league baseball player with 5 skills come up to the MLB and bat .250 and make fielding errors- its the wasted potential that hurts

Sam Langanke

Hard to predict. On the one hand they want more difference between shows, on the other more episodic storytelling

Shatner’s Cigarette

I have to disagree with Josh in his final analysis of Kira's actions in "Necessary Evil.”  This is *the* episode that proves she is not a murderer and shows how brutally unclean real resistance work can be. In the occupation timeline, Kira isn’t a free civilian who happens to kill someone during a bad day at the office. She’s a war-time resistance fighter in the Bajoran Underground, on an active covert mission on Terok Nor. Her job in that moment is sabotage. She’s in enemy territory, behind enemy lines, under an occupying power that uses torture and the horror of mass retaliation as standard policy.  In the context of this episode, Vaatrik is a bad dude. He's aligned with the machinery that’s imprisoning, and killing Bajorans.  When he walks in on her during her covert mission in his chemist's shop (off screen), the operation now becomes a threat to expose her. Letting him live doesn’t just endanger Kira being captured by Gul Dukat and his minions. It endangers her entire cell, her contacts and anyone the Cardassians could drag in, torture, and break for information. This is where I think a James Bond comparison fits. Bond’s “license to kill” is really a license to make lethal decisions in the field, and as M says in "Spectre", it also means knowing when not to kill. Kira operates under the same brutal logic during the occupation: she’s effectively got a resistance “license to kill or be killed.” As we've seen in the first two seasons of DS9, Kira shows that same "when not to kill" restraint: she’s not a bloodthirsty executioner. She spares people, forgives people, and carries guilt. In “Necessary Evil,” she kills because, in that moment, there can be no witness. It’s an ugly choice made by a secret operative under genocidal occupation, not a cold-blooded peacetime murder.

Target Audience

I think the main conflict people seem to have with my take is my dissociation of judgement using the term murder. Murder is a noun. To kill someone unlawfully with premeditated intent. It’s a factual thing. It doesn’t mean she’s a bad person. I agree it wasn’t a cold-blooded peacetime murder, but the context of the murder doesn’t make it not a murder. I’d argue you are calling it a justified murder, which is fair, but is still a murder. She intended to kill him, and it was unlawful. She murdered him. It’s not a judgement of her character, just a fact.

Shatner’s Cigarette

I think we both mean the same thing, but are splitting hairs over definitions. Did Gul Dukat think Kyra murdered a civilian on his station? Yup. Did the Bajoran Underground think she murdered Vaatrik? Nope. Did Odo.......? 🤔 Per Google AI: The difference is that killing is a general term for causing a death, while murder is a specific type of unlawful killing, committed with malice aforethought. In essence, all murders are killings, but not all killings are murders, because some killings are justified or excused, such as those in self-defense or during war. Killing Definition: The act of causing a person or animal to die. Examples: *A soldier killing an enemy combatant. *A person accidentally causing a fatal car accident. *An animal being slaughtered for food. *A legal execution. Murder Definition: The unlawful and intentional killing of a human being, committed with malice aforethought (premeditation or an intent to kill or cause serious harm). Examples: *A premeditated act of violence to take a life. *A killing that occurs in a fit of rage, which can still be considered murder depending on jurisdiction. *The killing of someone during the commission of another felony, a concept known as felony murder.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

Remember Mordock? The blue alien from S2 TNG with the weird breathing thing on his chest? He has a 'disability' that requires accommodation. Wesley asks about it, Mordock explains it, and he is treated normal for the rest of the episode. His unique atmospheric requirements aren't used to save the day, and he isn't even a hero. Mordock is how you do a disabled character. And Gerodi is how to do a disabled episode. Remember 'The Enemy'?? The Romulan and Geordi jab at one another about half a dozen different things and Geordi's defective eyes is only one part. In the end "I will be your eyes" is a perfect line, without it being the ham-fisted focus of the episode. 'Melora' is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum and is a text book mary sue. I hate it. It is awful. It is erased from my canon, and it deserves to begone from yours as well. It's ok to hate a disabled character and a disabled rights episode when it's bad.

roboethical

When they first came out, I liked VOY more. DS9 really grew on me though, to the point where its now my favorite and go-to series for rewatching. I suspect the common internet love/hate for these respective series is an exaggeration of a similar evolution and outcome of opinion. I would not be surprised if their first impression is less ebullient about DS9 and more positive about VOY than conventional internet wisdom would suggest.

Ken R

It is an improvement, but DS9 too has shown a fear of fun at times. On TOS when the crew encountered the situation where everything you think of comes true, we immediately saw people attacked by a samurai and shot at by a WW1 plane. On DS9 Sisko thought of a baseball player... and he was a nice guy.

Matchstick Jose

I do think it's interesting that you said Worf killing Duras would not constitute murder because it would not be considered murder under the Klingon judicial system. So, I guess the question is, which justice system are we judging Kira’s actions under? Certainly, IMO, any Bajoran court is going to call the killing of a Bajoran collaborating with the Cardassians a justified death and not murder. I doubt any Bajoran prosecutor would even take up the case. So it's probably not "unlawful" as such under Bajor's system. Now, the Cardassians would call it murder. But does the justice system of an occupying invader hold any real weight when assessing the actions of those they’re oppressing? Cardassians would, after all, call the death of any Cardassian on Bajor, civilian or military, a murder. Does that make it so?

Loot Narsbaar

To be fair that episode a total DS9 does TNG S1 abomination

Crewman #6

Once again. Much that the audience can only whisper and give each other shifty looks about. Your Star Trek journey still looks strong for a long while yet. The best is yet to come.

Nolan

I'm glad Alex had time to reflect on his response to the S2 finale. I'm more glad I was RIGHT about his reasons! 🤪

Target Audience

This is a good argument, but I would go by the law as written, not how it would likely be prosecuted, because that opens up a whole can of worms. The murder took place on Terok Nor. I’m not an expert in Cardassian law obviously, but unless stated otherwise I would assume killing someone on the station would be illegal.

Richard Finch

An analog to the Bajoran Resistance is the French Resistance during World War II. (The real life “Maquis” were French and Belgian rural guerrillas during the Nazi occupation.) If the maquis kill a collaborator, has he been “murdered” because the puppet government set up by the Nazis says it’s murder?

Oberhauser-Blofeld

I know they said they weren’t going to have any Patreon full episodes till 2026 but I’m hoping for a big Christmas Day gift of Season 3’s DS9’s first two episodes dropped on Christmas day. Something to consider??

Better Watch Trek

Well, there will be boring episodes in season 3 and there will be great episodes. There will be some, that the fans don't care but you both will praise (and the other way around) And that's the beauty of Star Trek: To explore strange new episodes, to seek out which one I like and which one other like and to expand my horizon WHY others may have other opinions. That beeing said: I love slow burn, low stake, storys that escaletes into bigger issues. Potter 5, Hobbits, the jem'hadar ;)

Deep Red

I think a marked improvement from S1 to S2 is the technobabble. S1 was absolutely submerged in dry technobabble. S2 still has it, but there's far less of it, the episodes don't rely on it as a crutch as often, and generally the delivery of it is a lot better. PS. Rick Berman did NOT like the idea of the show being on a station and not a ship. In general, Berman was against a lot of DS9's best ideas. He was too producer-brained and was kind of correct. Since DS9 was the black sheep of the franchise for a long time and Voyager was way more popular when they were both airing.

Tim Nikiforovs

Once again, the final list for reference Alex Josh Audience 1 - Whispers 1 - Necessary Evil 1 - Necessary Evil 2 - Necessary Evil 2 - The Homecoming 2 - The Wire 3 - Crossover 3 - Whispers 3 - Whispers 4 - The Wire 4 - Crossover 4 - The Homecoming/trilogy 5 - The Maquis Pt. 1 5 - The Siege 5 - Crossover 6 - Tribunal 6 - Maquis(mostly pt 1) 6 - The Maquis 7 - Profit and Loss 7 - The Circle 7 - The Jem'Hadar 8 - Playing God 8 - The Wire 8 - The Siege 9 - Melora 9 - Armageddon Game 9 - Blood Oath 10 - The Circle Trilogy 10 - Melora 10 - Tribunal Honorable mentions Armageddon Game Playing God The Circle Tribunal Armageddon Game Blood Oath Melora

Tim Nikiforovs

Honestly I think VOY S1 is significantly better than S2. Maybe 2 genuinely bad eps and a few mediocre, but I find most of the season ranges from decent to excellent. Short and sweet. Many of the show's worst eps are concentrated in S2 IMO.

Tim Nikiforovs

The original spot ended up like floor lady in that one episode

BN13

I completely agree with you about Melora. I hate that episode too for the same reasons. But other people are still allowed to like or love that episode for whatever reasons they want to. And it's ok to hate ANY episode, period. Not just "when it's bad." Or "you're not allowed to hate this episode because a disabled person is it, but if the episode's bad, now it's ok." The truth is, there are no rules, and the minute we start creating and believing stupid rules like that, is the minute we start accepting and imposing oppression over others. ALL opinions have value and worth, and should be respected as a product of free will. It doesn't matter how "wrong" you think someone might be. It's more important that everyone be allowed to think freely and have their own voice. With that in mind, the only one who is able to decide whether or not this episode deserves to erased from Josh and Alex's canon, are Josh and Alex. You, and no one else, have jurisdiction there. You only have jurisdiction over your OWN canon, and your own beliefs.

BN13

I agree. I like Voyager ok, but it's main problem is it could have been SO much better. It could have been great, but it's just "ok."

Derek Locke

It Wasn't a "clone crew"! The USS Iowa (BB-61), USS New Jersey (BB-62), USS Missouri (BB-63) and USS Wisconsin were all IOWA class battleships, were they clones? No, they had their own missions, crews and experiences. All of them had the same strengths and capabilities. Tell the USS New Jersey crew they were just a clone of the USS Iowa and crew, see what they'd say! It wasn't about, "if that had been the Enterprise..." It was about this new threat being fanatical enough to do what they needed to do to destroy an enemy capitol ship, to make our heroes go, what the hell are we facing here?

BN13

They loved everything with Terry Farrell in Blood Oath. Their problem was how they handled the TOS era Klingons.

ShazD

Voyager has shit tons of amazing individual episodes imo.

ShazD

Agree. Season 1 of VOY is very underrated.

ShazD

I don't think that applies to VOY at all re: season 3.

Actuarial Lurker

Josh- I'm Catholic and since people have wondered "Is it OK to do something normally evil for a good purpose?" without falling into the slippery slope of "the ends justifies the means" The Principle of Double Effect is used to determine when an action which has two effects, one good and one evil, may still be chosen without sin. All four conditions must be satisfied: The action must be morally good, or indifferent, as to object, motive and circumstances. The bad effect(s) may only be tolerated, not directly willed. The good effect must be caused at least as directly as the bad. The good effect(s) must be proportionate to compensate for the bad effect(s). Classic example would be "Can you kill someone in self defense?" A person uses lethal force to defend themselves against an attacker. The intention is to save their own life, and the attacker's death is a foreseen but unintended consequence of the defensive action. Here KIra is trying to prevent atrocities by committing what normally is a crime, A Catholic priest would say she had not sinned since this is the basis of "just war" etc Its OK to fight Nazis in WW2 because of the Holocaust but its not OK to preemptively invade Canada to annex Toronto....

Actuarial Lurker

ShazD just doing some light trolling.... I love DS9 and like Enterprise and TNG, I thought Voyager was "uneven" because it had the potential to be as deep as DS9 and was "ordinary" to get ratings. I HATE nuTrek- all the reboots etc going on recently except for Lower Decks

Matthew McKinnon-Gray

Regarding Voyager: It wasn’t created because Paramount didn’t have faith in DS9, but rather was part of a reaction to the American government repealing the Financial Interest and Syndication Rule in 1993. That rule basically prevented the big 3 TV networks from owning their prime time programming, forcing them to buy prime time shows from 3rd party companies like Paramount or Warner Bros. Paramount was afraid NBC, ABC & CBS would start creating their own shows and crowd Paramount of their schedules. In response, Paramount created the United Paramount Network in order to make sure there would always be a market for their TV shows. They demanded that Berman create a new Star Trek show in order attract TV affiliates to their Network, especially since Warner Brothers was was also trying to recruit affiliates for their own new network.

Loot Narsbaar

At one point Siddig was supposed to play Commander Sisko

Paul

In a technical sense, murder is a matter of law. So, per the Cardassian perspective, Kira is indeed a murderer. Per the Bajoran perspective, Kira is a heroic freedom fighter, even legally speaking. At the end of the day I'm less concerned with the law and semantics, more so on the morality of actions. Was Kira evil in this action of killing? I don't personally think so.

Worf and Riker Ride Again

I must be one of the main defectors when it comes to Voyager, I think it’s great and would rate it above DS9, not that I’m saying DS9 is bad. I think Voyager is kind of the opposite to TNG and DS9 in that in my opinion starts off strong and loses its way in the later seasons. I love the characters and actors in VOY almost as much as TNG.

The_Dahar_Master

As much as I love "Whispers". The episode doesn't even crack my top 10 of DS9 Episodes.

BN13

I agree that Voyager has great characters. That's probably the strongest thing about it. Those characters had as big an impact on me as TNG's characters. But even then, some of them were never allowed to do anything. And I agree that Voyager seasons 1-3 are very different than Voyager seasons 4-7. 4-7 are the mainstream seasons, but unlike the other shows, you really can argue that 1-3 were really when Voyager was at it's best. But again, that's one of many reasons why a lot of fans say that Voyager had a lot of lost potential. Imagine if the show had kept going with what it was doing in seasons 1-2, and we kept getting character episodes like the ones in season 3. We'd have a vastly different show. And for a lot of people, that's the show that we wish we'd gotten. Voyager's main problem is it introduced all of these great ideas in terms of ways that the show could go, but then those ideas just vanish in favor of status quo.

Paul

The problem for me is TYPE of episode matters. Whispers is in my top 10 "fun" episodes. But there's also a top 10 "serious" episodes. Those that make you rethink reality or question your morals or make you bawl like a baby. It's hard to appropriately compete those styles against each other.

Paul

The reason they say cloned crew is because we never met them until now. There was no foundation. It really is the major flaw of the episode imo. We needed to care about the Captain at the very least, for it to have more impact. Introduce him many episodes ago, give him a few storylines and triumphs. Then, when he's kamikazed into, it's a gut punch.

Derek Locke

I get that, and I agree that would have given it more impact, but that wasn't the point of it. The point was these people compose of a warrior class with personal cloaking abilities, they are deceptive and have capabilities we don't understand (where'd she beam to?) and they are willing to sacrifice their own to take down an enemy. I never once thought, "Oh man, if that had been the Enterprise...." And after this far into Star Trek, it's a given that there are so many other ships and crews, it's silly to view them as cloned imo.

Drake

my personal favorite by a landslide is the final "jem'hadar" i mean its also the 2nd highest rated episode in all of ds9 after duet to this point xD

Drake

IMDB has jem'hadar on 1 by a landslide with 8.4

Target Audience

Late reply, but I agree this murder was at the very least a matter of survival, not morality, and I’d even say there’s a convincing argument it’s justified. EDIT: not survival as in self-defense but as in long term survival.