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UNCUT - Second Skin (DS9 S3E5) | Star Trek Journey 333 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-01-16 15:00:26
Edited:
2026-11-01 04:52:34
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Summer

Well its no bonding but I hope you liked watching it

Fedora The Explorar

So about all these jokes that Josh made about a gun that turns you into a Cardassian...

Fedora The Explorar

Also I think that video of her was AI like the deep fake of Obrien in Armageddon Game

misti-step

you should keep a count of which guest star shows up the most times across different shows youre reacting to 😅

Zenlike Creature

Thanks, guys. Two episodes this week! Very much enjoy this episode and very much a what if scenario which I think they execute well. I think the main reason DS9 is my favourite Trek series is that it is highly dramatised whilst still being fairly episodic. Fixed position in the galaxy surrounded by various factions helps the writers develop relationships, explore cultures in more detail as well as their motivations and inner workings, and develop recurring characters giving them greater depth. Very much more shades of grey for some. It's something that's very challenging to do with TNG and VOY as you spend a great deal planet hopping. Still, it's personal preference to which you prefer, and I enjoy all Trek, even if this is my favourite :) And I'll say it again. Garrick is arguably my favourite character. You may not agree just yet, but give it time. Look forward to hearing your thoughts on the episode.

Jonathon Tsagris

DS9 adheres to certain fundamental laws. Jake must wear a crazy shirt; Chief must suffer, and Garak has to get all the best lines.

Sam Langanke

"Major. you never looked so ravishing."

Sam Langanke

What i really like about this episode regarding character is to shatter Kira's core - to be a former Bajoran freedomfighter who hates Cardassians. To find a father figure in a high ranking Legate is the opposite of her values and believes and must change her attitude towards Cardassia and her identity as a whole.

Evan Guthrie

Surprised to see so many people dislike this one. Glad you guys enjoyed it.

Brent Morris

I bet Garak never gets Traffic tickets

JordanK1991

Same here, but then I know quite a few Trekkies (including in my own family) who genuinely dislike Kira to the point of being annoyed every time she shows up and/or becomes the main focus of an episode. Always loved this one. Definitely an A-tier episode for me.

Evan Guthrie

With Lwaxana Troi? I can understand that. With Kira? What are you smoking?

Matchstick Jose

From what I remember from behind the scenes, for whatever reason, the writers were really scrambling to stay ahead at this point in the season, and so they filmed this off of Robert Hewitt Wolfe’s first draft. Kind of impressive it’s as good as it is even so. It’s definitely the fact that Kira and Ghemor actually form a real bond that makes it work. I believe the writers regretted killing off Entek after they saw how great the performance was. I kind of wonder if Sisko was influenced by his interaction with fake Garak in “The Search,” and maybe started wondering: “Hmm, this guy I have no reason to trust could be useful under certain conditions (like, you know, when I’m extorting him).”

Doctor Pulaski

Or the filter Sisko used in the very same episode...

Darren

The joy of this episode is trying to figure out just what the Cardassians are upto and Garak just stealing the scene when he gets the chance. S3 gets off to a decent start

JordanK1991

I don't understand either.

Ryan

This was another solid one. I love how doggedly they commit to the premise. You know from the start that Kira isn't really a Cardassian, and yet the ruse goes on for so long that you're halfway to believing it. I forgot how harrowing that mirror scene was -- the score and the blocking and the way Nana Visitor's face sells it. We might not be convinced, but it sure seems like Kira breaks right there. Powerful stuff. Also props to the surprisingly poignant ending scene. That for me is what elevates this one over Face of the Enemy. Who cares about any of those Romulans once we have Troi back, but darn it, I feel for ol' Ghemor. I'm glad Kira kept his jewelry.

Beagle Boy

Lets keep on rolling DS9

Reality Strikes

“You guys have idea what’s begun here.” Aris

Duncan McDonald

Really enjoyed this one. The Cardassian lore, the Obsidian Order. Some great direction as well and I loved some of the scenes between Kira and Ghemor - the shot through the window was great and served not only to place them both in a perfect portrait but the bars on the window emphasised the barriers that existed between the two. Oh, and Garak, as per usual is a top-tier, scene-stealing MF.

River Acheron

The interesting thing about this episode is, originally, they were going to leave the question if she was a Cardassian or not open ended. (This was after the idea of using O'Brian) I believe I remember reading that Bashir couldn't confirm it either way, or something akin to that. That would have taken balls...more balls than they had I suppose, so they changed it. I actually didn't think about The Mirror Universe Kira being Bajoran, which you brought up! That's so true! It would have given it away that Kira was in fact Bajoran. Still....the episode we got was SOLID S Tier! One of my favorites this season. (But not THE favorite!) And as for a guest-star horror connection as I do with many episodes, you already said it with The X-Files. :)

River Acheron

Also, I will say, it may be more similar to Face of the Enemy than you think. Both of course had kidnapping/made to look like the enemy. But also, both had to do with their shadow-government organization (Tal'Shiar, Obsidian Order), and both had to do with defection from their respective oppressive governments. I still think this is an S, and is in fact a better episode than Face of the Enemy, and they are also told in VASTLY different ways. But we cannot ignore the similarities! lol

River Acheron

Josh also called it: CIA = The Obsidian Order = Tal'Shiar. Basically, shadow organizations that act independently (with varying degrees) from the governing body, and/or the military, yet sanctioned BY the government. Also, to clarify, from my understanding, a Cardassian Gul = Captain. And a Legate is basically an Admiral? (someone can maybe back me up, or say I'm wrong, lol, but I think that's accurate.) So yeah, either way he was very high up in their command structure, and thus extremely hard to take-down and I assume it also had to be done quietly like this, as to save-face, and not embarrass the Central Command.

harrypothead42024

Sorry guys, we are done with Gul Dukat. now you can be as unhappy sa the rest of us were 31 years ago.(✿◕‿◕✿)

harrypothead42024

I don't think this is a spoiler, but this is about the time, in real life, where writing rooms and production crews started to talk about, "Those Star Trek Guys", Meaning they were able to do stuff with less money and less time that other shows were trying to catch up to. NYPD Blue was also dipping into a more serialized format at this time, and reportedly the repeated phrase was, "But those Star Trek Guys are doing it".

Narnman

the Gul and Legate ranks is how i always saw them as you described

River Acheron

Ya I think it's the closest analogy

Aroha

Wow I thought this was a really well-liked episode in the ds9 community, reading those takes I guess I was wrong lol.

kevin coleman

The episode that proves no matter how attractive you are, you will look hotter as a Cardassian.

Tim Nikiforovs

Yeah, always been weird to me. Having a character they like more than Kira, sure, fair enough. But what's to dislike?

Tim Nikiforovs

Can you smell what Entek is cooking?

Tim Nikiforovs

Not a big issue, but it seems the reaction is a bit misaligned with the episode. You seem to react to certain things several seconds in advance. A good example is around 34 minutes into the reaction(29:30 in the episode) Josh says "they are" seeming in response to Garak saying the quarters are cramped, even though he hadn't said it yet. Shortly after the little pop for Sisko's holo-disguise again happened before it showed in the episode. Anyway, this is a great episode. Not quite an S for me, but close(A+). One more step in Kira's evolving views on Cardassians. Also since it was a concern of yours, this episode should at least provide an indication that the Cardassians haven't been completely sidelined by the introduction of the Dominion. Granted it's just 1 data point and that might still be the case, but it's a good sign at least. Regarding the Obsidian Order/CIA comparison, I actually think the Order is more accurately compared to the KGB(maybe with a touch of Mossad). The whole "policing your own citizens to ensure their loyalty" is a lot more applicable to the KGB. We've heard since Chain of Command that Cardassians are very family focused, though it was always through a lens of them being this very lizard brained species. Ghemor presents us with a Cardassian who is a genuinely warm father figure, and someone Kira can actually respect. More layers to a complicated species. In regards to Ghemor's warning about Garak, I can just see him listening from around the corner and emerging after that comment to say "ohh, you should listen to him Major. I'm not to be trusted......Unless of course, you're buying a dress". Finally, regarding having O'Brien be the center of this episode, Molly being fully human does throw a wrench into that, unless the Order can so thoroughly change someone that they even rearrange their DNA so that even that was human. But in regards to Kira, Crossover doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility of Kira actually being Cardassian. The Intendent would simply be the mirror version of the Kira that Iliana replaced. They conceivably could have gone the route that the Kira we thought we were following actually died 10 years ago and we've actually been following a Cardassian agent who assumed her identity. Personally I'm glad they didn't, but it is an interesting idea.

paultardspambot .

Hey Alex, I was thinking. Instead of you guys doing star trek reactions, why don't we watch something interesting, like you guys re-organizing your room or playing Settlers of Catan? Seriosuly though, the cynicism is getting old. There were trek fans who became "nitpickers" and they were frankly pretty tiresome. They would activiely look for things to complain about. I get it, you loved TNG and don't feel the same way about DS9. But there isn't any show, non-sci-fi show included, where people just "hang out" with no drama or story. Sure, Kira and Dax in the holosuites could have been an episode. But episodes like that are breaks or off format things for what is in general, a sci-fi drama. When people said the show was "character driven", we dont't mean it's all the characters just hanging out as friends, TNG had scenes likes that. Scenes, not episodes. And DS9, ironically, more then then the previous shows, DOES have episodes which don't have the conventional sci fi drama and are more just charcater explorations. But that's clearly going to be the exception to the rule. I know what you're going to say, "No, it's not that I want nothing to happen, I want the plots to be about characters." Well, they very much are, but getting frustrated because an opening hook which features the characters just doing ordinary stuff which then seques to the main plot- this is what TNG did. They never had an episode which was just a poker game or people cooking. I get you would have liked that, but that's just not what Trek is. Then "oh, they revealed the villian." Again, it's like you're trying to find things to complain about. This WAS a mystery show., but the mystery wasn't "who is the villian?" We were just shown that to illustrate who the Obsidian Order agent was that was following Kira and kidnapped her. Because if we weren't shown that, some other nitpicker type would say "wait, how did they know where Kira was to kidnap her?" And they've established that it's a port where people freely move around and the show clearly does not keep censor or visual records of what everyone is doing at all times (they probably should on starships, and then its a big deal to access the records for personal quarters, but that would eliminate half of the episode plots, I guess its a civil liberties thing) The person was an Obsidian Order Agent so its not unbelievable at a Cardassian station they could sneak aboard a Bajoran transport, OR, what might have been happening is when Kira leaves she follows her on her own ship docked nearby. It's not fun to watch when people go in with this bias of wanting a show to be something it obviously isn't then having them have to win you over. And yes, it ultimately won you over. But there will be episodes that are good, but not as good a this one, where I'm worried you will start off turned off and come at it from a cynical perspective because it does the TNG thing and starts with a "characters hanging out" hook that seques to a plot, or involves "big stakes", especially involving the Dominion. At some point, you need to accept the show is not going to be what you want. The weird thing is, TOS was never like this. It was all fast paced drama, not "lets see the characters goof around." And I agree and the writers agree, on TNG there were charater based plots where they needed to shoehorn in some sci fi anomaly of the week that we didn't really care about as the b story. But that's NOT what was going on in DS9. For the millionth time, the camping trip was an intentional misdirect, to make you think it was a low stakes episode when it was the arrival of a high stakes villian. And the character stuff did continue but in a different context. I was a bit worried after that one that it would bias your viewing going forward, and unfortunately it seems to me that this is what is partially going on. You know this show is going to feature big, epic plots involving intergalactic politics and the Dominion. Thats clearly not your thing anymore. But I would say this is a way youve changed, because you had no issue with this when it was TNG and the Klingons, or Romulan episodes. The difference there though was that those were stll stand alone type things that were not going to change the universe on major ways. And yes, that IS the difference in DS9- that its not just stand alone and things have consequences. For many people, these ARE stakes that DS9 managed to eleveate above the previous format, and we ultimately experience this through the impact on our characters. The thing is, it feels like this wasnt always something you did, that you've gotten especially cynical about DS9. Maybe because TNG is over and you really wish there was more TNG. Maybe you will like Voyager more, because its much more of a TNG want to be, where every episode is a reset button. But at some point, rather then getting mad at the show for not being what you want it to be and looking for reasons to complain because you want a different type of show, just accept it on its own terms and admit "ok, this isnt really my thing, but I'll try to judge it within the confines of what it is, not what I want it to be." Otherwise, every time there is a "people hanging out" scene that gives way to the plot, JUST LIKE ON TNG, you're going to be checked out and have to be won back. And as I was worried about, based on your comment at the start of Equillibirum about a Jem'Hadar warship coming through the wormhole, it seems like you are soured on the Dominion as villian and concept, and any episode that deals with the Dominion and actually has stakes that can change the status quo of the show you will be turned off, and as you've been told, this is a show with longer bigger picture arcs where things matter. It's not a "reset button" low stakes character drama, and if you're going to be nitpicky because it's not that, what's the point in watching that? Instead of getting pissed, maybe just think about what I'm saying and what probabl represents the perspective of a lot of the viewers. Its not that we want you to love everything, or have your own takes. But if for some reason, you've sort of drifted from where you were, what we liked to watch, where youve already kind of decided you dont like the show for a lot of the reasons we love it... I don't know. I guess maybe just think about it. And embrace that honestly, instead of trying to say this was always what you thought and its the same as TNG anomaly of the week b plots, Its not, and it seems like something has changed for you where you are now much more cynical and nitpicky because you dont like the concept of DS9, the direction its going in, and that its not TNG. Just my opinion. I used a bit of snark to start with, but this is not a personal attack. That being said, I do feel like some of your reactions feel overly snarky for reasons that seem bizarre to me and some other patrons, and its frankly just kind of a turn off, like youre going out of your way to shit on something people love on the basis you want something radically different which star trek neveer was. Again, not trying to be personal, but with this reaction in particular, I feel like I just have to open this up, because I really like your channel and what you do, and I don't want to see that lost to cynicism, snark (which I just really dislike personally) and a nitpicky drift that wasn't part of the channel previously. I realize you might think I'm overreacting, and that was only about at the beginning, but its the general direction I'm worried about. Again, I really like this channel, and I'm not commeting to be negative or personally attack you. I look forward to every reaction that comesm out, and tend to watch them as soon as I can. And I just want to continue to enjoy it that much... And for you to be able to appreciate what I and others think is the height of trek and not fall into some of the negativity that happened when the show originally aired and had to wait till syndication to become a cult classic.

paultardspambot .

For a relevant comparison, I've made it known I really dislike Voyager. But I know some people like it, and I'm not going to shit on in the comments on every episode for the same reasons. I might point out in specific epsiodes when there are examples of things that I feel are problems, but I don't thing I'm going to add to the community by every show saying "this sucks" because it's not the show I want it to be. But it's different in the sense that I'm just a patron commenting, and you're the "star" of the show that people are coming here to watch.

paultardspambot .

Did anyone else have major sync problems with this one? Like worse then usual?

paultardspambot .

Ugh comment didnt go through. OK, so the key is, the Legate likely never saw the post operation version of his daughter. For "security reasons" he probably never saw what she looked like. So they could have shown her younger Kira's image and say that is what she looked like after the operation. Then, we have to just accept that when they altered Kira, while we saw Nana Vistor, they altered her enough to look like a plauisbly ten years older version of his cardassian daughter. So there's really no problem, assuming (which is likely) he never saw what she looked like after his daughter was altered and went undercover.

Some Guy

You don't have to watch this you know

Some Guy

I've thought for a long time that 90s Star Trek is an amazing unique artifact of television history from so many perspectives, including production. There has seldom been anything like it

Target Audience

It’s really not that serious my guy. I think perhaps you don’t personally connect with our style of humor. Which is fine. You shouldn’t let it get you this worked up though.

Target Audience

Noticed that as well, not sure what the deal is. Hopefully a one time issue.

Zack

They Love and episode I love, most enjoyable. They love an episode I don't love, enjoyable. They don't like an episode I love, enjoyable or not enjoyable depending on if I think it's funny. But like... Who cares? I understand the fun of talking about different aspects of episodes and stuff but going on about general like/dislike seems silly.

Clyde Frog

Fucking banger episode. Nuff' said.

paultardspambot .

oh, by the way, I think the reason O'Brien has been absent the past few episodes is because Colm Meaney was fliming something. They knew this and was the original reason they introduced Commander Eddington in The Search but as they were writing the episodes it turned out he wasn't really needed to fill the role the Chief would normally play. For example they had Bashir figure out there was a problem with the erased records in Equilibirum, and it wouldnt have made sense to have Eddington come along to Trill for that reason as it wouldn't have been his skill set anyway and why would you take your security officer on that mission.

paultardspambot .

There was alreasdy a comedic thing with Garak involving Kira when she says "Don't worry, he's on our side- I think." Another one might have been redundant.

paultardspambot .

It wasn't that Garak was a member of Central Command. It's been highly implied he was a member of the Obsidian Order and Enabran Tain, the head of the Obsidian Order, was his personal mentio, meaning he was likely a high ranking member of the Order before his exile. And it's been shown that Central Command and the Order can at times be on different pages or even rivals for power.

EnigmaticPenguin

As always, revisiting these as a discussion with you guys has given me a renewed appreciation for episodes I don’t pay much mind to the last thirty years. I’ve been a chronic TNG/DS9 seasons 4-7 rewatcher, and I’ve been missing out on so many hidden gems.

paultardspambot .

When they show Cardassia, its not dark like night, but it does seem to be perpetual twilight. Like a yellow sky

paultardspambot .

last one- Notes from Memory Alpha. They already talked about how the original concept was an "O'Brien must suffer" episode. -The writer Wolfe drew inspiration from Philip Dick in this episode, specifically "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" and "We Can Remember it For You Wholesale", the story which Total Recall was based on. Dick notoriusly wrote the TOS episode "City On The Edge of Forever" and was angry about how much they changed his script. Their is a comic based on his original script which is now available. It's clear why many of the changes were made. Dick clearly was not familair with the show and based his script on the writers bible and out of date tidbits. For example, the idea that Vulcan was conquered, either by Earth or had to be rescued by Earth (there was brief reference in TOS where McCoy mentioned how Spock's "people" were conquered, I believe the original idea as suggest in the comic was a contrast to the high judgemental pacifism of the Vulcans, that they needed the military strenght of Earth to be rescued, which is obviously something Roddenberry didnt like and which has later been contradicted. We can take that line to mean Spock's specific group of Vulcans were conquered prior to the Sundering. It's odd that McCoy would know such Vulcan history as he seems generally ignorant of Vulcans but perhaps he and Spock had discussed the histort of Spock's ancestors previously, and it was a quip McCoy had. Other elements was the very heavy focus on the racism of 20th century and the contrat between the federation including slurs which the network would have been uncomfortable with. There was also the use of violence by Spock especially which against the humans of the past which didn't fit. Famously the problem was not a treatment, but a character who was a drug addict on the crew who injected McCoy with the hallucinogenic drug which Roddenberry didn't approve of. The Guardians were different, there were many of them and their setup was beyond what the budget would allow. There were also mob scenes that were beyond the budget.) EDIT: I'm an idiot, I was thinking of Harlan Ellison, not Dick, as someone pointed out. -Had I been following the channel back then would have made these comments there, but I thought it was interesting having read the comic that sticks to the original Dick script for "City on The Edge" -Originally, Wolfe wanted to not be able to confirm whether Kira had not had her DNA altered, leaving some small not eof ambiguity and be relevent to the them of identity the episode was going for. This idea was dropped, and for the better in my opinion. First off, it doesn't make much scientific sense. Seconf, after the events of the episode, it makes no sense there is still the possibility of Kira being a Cardassian. I strongly disagree with the guys that Kira actually being a Cardassian would have been interesting. I prefer the idea of Thomas Riker replacing Will as a concept. Kira being a cardassian would have just been too muddled and I think mess up the character for no other reason then shock value. -The writers liked the character and performance of Entek and considered making him a recurring character. But they preferred to emphasize the danger of Garak, as combined with the warning, they wanted to keep people on their toes about the character and not have the audience settle in on him as clearly on the side of our crew and emphasize his potential ruthlessness. -The disguising of the Defiant was inspired by something real military submarines do, where different acoustic signatures can be used to identify subs and some military subs will intentionally disguise their acustic signature like the "shiled harmonics" of the Defiant. In general, in my opinion, the Defiant as a warship seems more inspired by military subs, with its claustrophobic quarters, small size, and focus ons stealtk and manevarability, similar to how ships were porrtayed in Trek 2; Wrath of Kahn. -Vistor felt claustrophobic in thr Cardassian makeup (apparently something several actors in full alien makeup experiences, like Robinson) and delayed the shooting a day as she ended a shooting day earlier after her request to end the shooting for the day was denied by the director and she started ripping off the makeup our of anxiety. -The writer points out the title "Second Skin" is a recurring theme, and not just a reference to Kira, but how everyone is wearing a "Second Skin". The legate who is secertly a member of the Underground, Entek, who is lying about what is going on, the Defiant, which disguises itself, and Garak. -The scene of the Holofilter version of the Khoberan is a reuse of a shot from "Duet" with the dialogue lip synced over. -The outdoor scene of the Cardassians seeing the new monitor where the announcer is talking about how children are the future of Cardassia (playing into the idea of Ghemor being so concerned about his daughter which the Order used against him and the general idea that "family is everything" in Cardassian society) is an altered reuse of a shot from Tribunal.

thebeefmaster

Kira's dilemma could have been worse. They could have told her that she was half hillbilly.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

I appreciate that they remember the Alamo and are looking forward to Dukat again

Erik L Jerks

More like can you smell Entek getting cooked by Garak at the end there.

Erik L Jerks

Well there was one time, but the judge and the ticketing officer later died unexpectantly.

Erik L Jerks

I get that you're passionate about the show, but I think you're mistaking their style of humor here with the actual criticism. They're reactors, they're generating content by injecting their personalities overtop of the media. I highly doubt they're actually expecting every episode to be about characters chilling in their quarters just hanging out. But it does make for a running gag for the audience.

Mr Indiscret

The commentary on the 2 part CHAINS OF COMMAND is highly recommended

Who North America

Since the Obsidian Order shows a body of a "Kira," I could be allowed to assume that the dead body was the real Iliana Ghemor. Since the father never saw that body, he still believes she is alive somewhere. Perhaps it was the Order's intent to swap Iliana with Kira years prior, but that attempt failed and Iliana was killed. Just a theory.

Summer

The ‘Kira’ they showed her was the mold used to capture her form to make Cardassian alterations, essentially a holographic image of her after she was kidnapped

TheSisko

One of the great things about this show, you get to the point that your favorite character is the one on screen at any given moment.

Forbidden Donut

"I'm glad the Defiant was finally used again." The previous episode, speaking as J. Jonah Jamison from Spider-Man 2, "Are you serious?"

Matchstick Jose

Based on this video, Josh and Alex are clearly falling out of sync with the timeline. (Where's the Chief when we need him!?!)

Forbidden Donut

I had never thought about the mirror universe aspect of "Is she really a Cardassian?" but yeah that would have made no sense.

Forbidden Donut

This one was definitely difficult to keep in sync with them. I seemed to have it, but then multiple times during the episode I was off by a few seconds again, then at one point it looks like they had to pause and resume.

Forbidden Donut

Deep Space Nine continues to build not only on what came before (TOS, TNG), but it keeps building on itself. I love that about it. I love TNG, but their characters and stories feel almost static (relatively speaking) by comparison. Even Garak has been given layers between his first appearance to now that I don't think Geordi ever got, for example, and he's not even a main cast member.

jon bolton

Another great Kira episode, and more great moments from Garak.

Ashley Sigmon

This episode is a Cardassian lore drop like the last one was a Trill lore drop. But this one I watch every time I do a rewatch, while I always skip Equilibrium. I think a big reason is Nana Visitor and even the guest actors just give 1000%.

Target Audience

Yes we mention in the discussion our disc froze 32 minutes in (right before the mirror moment) and we had to resume on paramount plus. That also meant we had to get the episode in full from paramount plus, so there’s most likely some frame rate differences.

Matchstick Jose

Sucks that you have to rely on decades-old discs working or Paramount+’s inferior streaming quality. You would think they would offer a legit way to download digital copies.

Forbidden Donut

Yeah, while I agree peak DS9 is seasons 4-7, season 3 is absolutely a step up from the first two and a great bridge to the peak.

Forbidden Donut

Yeah, I had to adjust multiple times to stay with it.

Forbidden Donut

I'm sympathetic to this because sometimes I still get it confused between when they're joking versus when they're seriously complaining or criticizing something. I feel like I've gotten better at 'getting it' one way or the other, but not always. Sometimes, it comes across as a little of both at the same time, which I think adds to the confusion. I also thought they were jumping the gun early on with this one between wanting the holodeck story and then immediately dunking on the 'mysterious woman'.

Forbidden Donut

Personally, I like it, although it never jumps out as one of my favorite episodes. Lots of moments in it I like and admire, and it's an interesting concept, but for some reason end-to-end it doesn't 'hit me' or 'hook me' as much as my favorites tend to do.

Jonathan Llyr

Along with being a total banger of an episode, I think the make-up team deserves a mention here. Really, really great work. So many close-ups and the Cardassian prosthetics really hold up. Very alien while allowing the actor’s eyes to shine through. Nana did an amazing job even with the stress she endured.

Forbidden Donut

And I'll still defend Nana Visitor's performance when Opaka died. I get it, it's not all on screen, but what I think we already knew about Kira is she took their religion seriously, and as they do tell us, Opaka was a symbol of their resistance and struggle, which we knew Kira was in the thick of her whole life, on top of Opaka being their/her holy leader, and someone she seemed to like/respect. And then suddenly Kira is kicked in the side of the head by having to shockingly witness Opaka's death, even I think cradling her dead body. There probably would be a huge outpouring of emotion to that, so I always felt her performance was valid. I'm sympathetic to calling it 'awkward', but then again sometimes people really do weep like that IRL.

Forbidden Donut

It does seem like the Paramount Plus copies are sped up and/or have shorter 'cut to black / commercial break' moments than the DVDs do. Whenever it's DVD for me and you guys, it's perfect, and even when I occasionally use my digital copy (I use Fandango Now), it seems to match the DVDs most (all?) of the time.

Loot Narsbaar

I don’t know how you watch on paramount plus without being spoiled

Todd

I think the main thing about DS9 is it really tried to make an ensemble show where the cast and characters get true spotlight episodes. So it means some characters may get "ignored" because they have really meaty episodes elsewhere. I think the setting of the show really helps this too. Having a proper starship at the writers' disposal doesn't hurt either. Last episode didn't necessarily need the Defiant but they used it anyway. They used it this episode but not the cloak which is actually an odd choice other than to add some extra drama and Garak screen time. Maybe T'Rul's actress Martha Hackett was busy with something else.

Target Audience

For example, my genuine opinion of the end of the hook is that the shot was unnecessary and worried me for the episode, but when I say “oh no, a random character!” Or clap and say “good start!” I’m joking. Also, the episode didn’t do what I was worried about. If it had continually showed a villain on the station the characters didn’t know about and we had to watch them all try to figure it out, then yes, that would have been annoying, but that didn’t happen. As for the plot thing…. It’s literally a meme. We’ve explained this throughly, and this episode is another great example of an episode plot we loved because we experienced it through Kira, a character we know and enjoy. Paul seems to even understand our explanation in his comment but still be mad anyway because future episodes may not do that and we may not like them?

Target Audience

Depends what you mean by spoiled. I have the ad-free tier if that’s what you mean.

BN13

As another comparison to Face of the Enemy, the Obsidian Order is basically the Cardassian equivalent of the Romulan Tal Shiar. The main job of both groups is to ensure loyatly to the state in a very Big Brother kind of way. The Central Command, in contrast, is simply the Cardassian Military. In theory, the Obsidian Order and Central Command are supposed to work like equal branches of government with checks and balances on each other. The Obsidian Order is supposed to be working only with the Central Command's approval for instance. But in practice, the Obsidian Order will just unalive anyone who gets in their way. Also, Garak was supposedly a member of the Obsidian Order, not the Central Command. And we see here a little of how the Obsidian Order works. Which makes it even more interesting; how did Garak have a valid Central Command validation code? Do all members of the Obsidian Order have access to Central Command's codes?

Matchstick Jose

I'm guessing Loot Narsbaar means images of future episodes in thumbnails or banners.

BN13

Sure, this episode is ok and all, but you know what would have really been great? If the whole episode was just Kira and Dax going windsailing on the Holodeck.

Loot Narsbaar

Prediction: by the time we reach the end of DS9 Josh and Alex will like it every bit as much as they did TNG but it will take a few years. DS9 just now brought on the heavy hitters from TNG. Let them cook.

Doug

So far the two different uses of the Defiant, outside of the two parter, have just been things they could have used a runabout for. I don't think they needed to take a whole starship to transport Jadzia to Trill

Target Audience

I’m careful, and I also don’t focus on anything, but it is what it is.

BN13

Now what if they had thought ahead, and made her Cardassian in the mirror universe, and we never got an explanation for that until now?

John M.

Rene Auberjonois also hates his makeup.

BN13

That, and things like episode descriptions, featured episodes from future seasons right below what you are trying to watch, and its annoying autoplay every time you try to start the app.

Dark Kronis

it would have been a interesting change if she was cardassian and stayed that way for the rest of the series

BN13

Nana Visitor wasn't the only one who had a problem with the Cardassian makeup. Andrew Robinson was also highly claustrophobic, and the Garak makeup was really hard for him. He loved how he looked in it though, and he knew the character was worth it. If you pay attention in this episode, there's a line where Garak comments on how claustrophobic the Defiant feels. It was probably a nod to this. In an interview, Rene Auberjonois talked about how the Odo makeup wasn't pleasant for him either. He mentioned that if Odo comes across as being grumpy all the time, that was probably his own agitation coming out.

sword bard

Yeah, I can only compare it to how my very Catholic mother would probably have reacted if the Pope asked to go on a road trip with her and then got shot dead right in front of her. Quite a rollercoaster for any seriously religious person.

sword bard

The side/recurring characters in DS9 honestly get more banger episodes and better character development arcs than a LOT of main characters got in other shows.

sword bard

Oh man, that's such a sad possibility.

sword bard

This is why they have four lights. It's their little heat lamps

Jason Aud

I'm glad you don't typically use Paramount+ I always find I have to resync throughout the episodes when you do. I always liked this episode though, glad you all did as well! The Chief thing might have been strange too after they already did that with his friend from the Rutledge in Tribulnal....it's a Cardy thing though haha. Always look forward to new episode reacts, keep'em coming!

Narnman

oh shiiiii maybe!

Philbot

I’ve always thought that the Kira corpse is Ileanna.. it just makes sense if she looks that much like Kira?

Philbot

I need Micheal Westmore to make me a cardassian wig. They’re so full lustrous and looks so real! Mines thin.. Kira in a black wig makes her look like Princess Jasmine. 😂 🧞‍♀️

Rangsk

As a Paramount+ viewer, staying in sync is like a little mini game to play while watching the show and watching the reaction. I wonder if it would be too much to do a sync point after each commercial break? That seems to be where they desync the most.

Philbot

It really wouldn’t change anything she’d still be Kira at least mentally speaking and at least 10 years of her memories are real?

Philbot

Yea I think they didn’t want to use it without Romie approval? 🤷‍♂️

Paul

Reminds me of The Defector, in this case the Cardassians constructing a scenario to weed out an elevated official that they suspect of treason. Romulans do share some personality and functions with Cardassians indeed. Very solid episode, great guest performances and of course, Nana Visitor brings it, and Andrew Robinson! Damn he can deliver a monologue with such brilliant flair.

Philbot

But Kira was a real person before they replaced her?

Philbot

My paramount sucks. I have to go in one of 2 ways tv works better, but I use my fire stick for everything else. Seems to just be paramount, but my prime worked fine.

Philbot

Maybe a literal transporter replica? They can hypothetically just replicate “living things” albeit not instill them with consciousness..

David Felgate

Phillip K. Dick never wrote anything for Star Trek, though his stories did serve as inspiration for Trek writers. The original script for "City on the Edge of Forever" was written by Harlan Ellison, who was, as you say, famously livid about the changes Roddenberry made to his script.

sword bard

Surely you mean Esteban Tain.

jack

Hey guys! Bit of a warning against spoilers. If you're watching these through Paramount+, whatever you do, do NOT read the episode synopsis till after you watch the episode. There are a few this season that completely spoil the plot!

Sunny

I use P+ through Amazon and in the past had great matching but when we got to season 3 something went a little different. I do think it’s the fade in/fade outs based on when I fall out of sync

Sunny

It’s really easy to see more than you want to w the thumbnails and the episode descriptions if you swipe too far. Though I suspect the latter happens to me mostly because I keep spilling tea on the remote so you might be fine

Forbidden Donut

And apparently sometimes the wrong episode's description can be used for a different one. So, theoretically, the episode they're trying to watch could describe a future one.

Forbidden Donut

Maybe I missed it, and she was allegedly a replacement. I guess I was thinking she was supposed to be a fake person the Obsidian Order fabricated and put into society 10 years ago.

jon bolton

I forgot to say earlier one of my favourite moments was Garak dealing with the Cardassian ship. Alex seemed surprised the Marquis were mentioned by the Gul on that ship, i couldn't tell if that was in a good way or not.

Sunny

Oh bless your heart

Jill Barker

Had real problems with syncing my DVD with the TA watch. I had to keep adjusting. This wasn’t really an issue when watching on Netflix, but since Trek is no longer being shown there, I went to Paramount +. The adverts made it unwatchable ( originally I watched all Trek on the BBC so no ads) , so i bought the set of DVDs. I thought the synch would be easy but it is extremely difficult . Can anyone explain why? By the way, I loved this episode . Sheer class.

Laura Thornley

Sometimes streaming services spoil episodes with the thumbnail image too. Its really annoying. Every streaming service should have a 'spoiler free mode' where it doesn't even give you episode names, just numbers - and blacks out cast listings during the intro too.

Miranda

Yeah, I am constantly having to re-sync while watching on Paramount+

paultardspambot .

No, that's the thing, I want to watch it. But yes, maybe I am confusing the humor with serious criticism.

paultardspambot .

ok, yes. I think I misunderstood that it was a joke. Noted

MJBull

The actor who reminded you of The Rock was very prolific character actor for years prior to this. Seeing him here was a definite "Hey, It's That Guy!" trope instance.

Laura Thornley

I love this episode. There's so much to dig into and so many unanswered questions (which I have some theories on).

Laura Thornley

I agree, though its ambiguous enough to not be certain. Kira never gets to properly study the body, so it could have been a fake - or it could have been real, or a clone, or another Bajoran. Its so hard to tell with The Order, they do love their overly complicated plots.

Laura Thornley

There's an infamous image of him (Rene) pulling the mask off too - utterly drenched in sweat. I imagine it was horrible, but he did such a great job.

Miranda

Definitely. The Cardassian makeup is amazing. I think it may be my favorite makeup in all of Star Trek. It is highlighted in such a great way here. It really allows the actors to emote.

Miranda

I've long said that Tier 3 characters on DS9 (in terms of screen time) usually have more character development than everyone on TNG except Data.

Miranda

I've always believed this must have been the case

BN13

Ugh! I can't believe I messed that up!

Miranda

Kira is their least favorite character? That is crazy. She's my favorite out of the main cast!

Miranda

I quite like this episode. I can't give it an S because I grade relative to the whole series, but it is a solid A for me. What I love about it is that there is no way for the audience to understand what the heck is going on with the Cardassians in the beginning scenes. The way the father, Ghemor, is so sincere in his belief that Kira is his daughter helps to sell the disorientation. And it isn't until the very end when Ghemor reveals that he's a dissident that you can start to figure it out. And really, it is Kira herself who has to explain it. But it makes sense, because we've already seen Cardassian dissidents. We know the Central Command is trying to eliminate them. We've heard that the Obsidian Order is essentially the KGB. And here we get an added layer of distrust between the Central Command and the Obsidian Order. We also know the Cardassians will run crazy elaborate plans to achieve political goals. This is perfectly deployed serialization. They can reveal a crazy complicated ruse in the climax scene, but the audience understands it because they've already laid the groundwork in prior episodes. Great acting by the guest stars playing Cardassians. Great scenes with Garak. Just a really good episode.

Target Audience

It's an issue with this episode specifically on our end. Shouldn't be a normal problem.

David Brown

The person who makes sure the actors follow exactly what the writers wrote is the Script Supervisor. On TNG that was Cosmo Genovese and on DS9 that is Judi Brown.

Ashley Sigmon

This watch through has really made me appreciate how DS9 uses character-focused episodes to drop lore. There is so much important Cardassian culture info dropped here but on first watch you are so worried about what is happening to Kira that you do not realize how much you have learned about Cardassian culture and politics. I love how they use the personal to illustrate the political in this episode.

Jeff McCoy

I may be making this up in my mind, but I thought I remembered someone saying that the original ending to this episode was Bashir being unable to determine if her genetic structure was Bajoran or Cardassian, always leaving the question of if she was or wasn't who she thought she was. I kinda like that ending, but overall this is definitely a highlight of Season 3.

Drake

i don know which is crazier, Tal Shiar, Section 31 or the Obsidian Order, but my money would been on the Obsidian Order

Drake

the reason i pretty early in this episode sawing it the first time thought something with the questioning is off and its not at all about kira, was because the questions made no sense. Starfleet personal on DS9 ? the name of the Federation Ships on the Demilitarized zone ? Come on ... the Obsidian Order probably knows the name of each sibling of everyone on board of these ships already xD

Bert

Regarding Ari, the young resistance Cardassian near the end that you thought might be the same one from the TNG Lower Decks episode, he's not that guy. But Ari was played by Billy Burke who actually landed a pretty big role in the Twilight Saga (the sparkly vampires). He is Charlie, Bella's dad and the chief of police. Not normally a series I'd watch but the Rifftrax for that series are some of the best. Team Mustache Dad. I give this episode an A but I understand the S. The thing is, I knew this wasn't permanent because I'd watched parts of the series out of order. You thought it might be. This is one of a few places where DS9 puts a different spin on a plot device from TNG, in this case borrowing from Face of the Enemy.

Ca$hWednesday

I was having some weird issues where my DVD was losing sync by a couple seconds with the reaction during the commercial pause. This is the first time this has happened with DS9. Did anyone else notice this?

reactive1

Yes, it happened to me as well. It was off a couple of seconds at least by the end.

reactive1

You need to edit your comment. Spoilers

ShazD

Definitely watch the commentary for Generations?

Skye Maidstone

Garak is so damn bad ass. I remember why I love that character so much. Great episode.

Jakob Robinson

Yes. Same. And it's even worse on the Voyager premier. I kept having to adjust it after every scene change.

Prof Moff

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 5 Jadzia 2 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1

ryler05

I was surprised how hot Kira looked as a Cardaassian.