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UNCUT - The Abandoned (DS9 S3E6) | Star Trek Journey 334 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-01-18 15:00:18
Edited:
2026-01-19 16:07:11
Imported:
2026-09
Tags:
stj

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Matchstick Jose

Just one little nugget on the writing credits. So, I don’t think we’re quite to this policy in the show yet because Ira Steven Behr is still only co-show runner with Michael Piller at this point, but Behr did not like staff writers essentially taking script money and/or residuals from freelancers. So, at some point pretty soon in the history of the show, Behr implemented a policy where freelancers would get full credit for episodes, regardless of how much work the staff actually did on an episode. It’s an extremely generous and thoughtful thing to do, but it does mean you have to look at the behind-the-scenes stuff to get a full sense of which writers actually worked on some episodes. There are some of the most well-regarded episodes coming up in later seasons that were written or rewritten almost entirely by one staff writer or another, but where they are not credited at all on either the story or teleplay.

Jonathon Tsagris

Is anyone else creeped out at the idea of Jake (who canonically turns 15 at some unknown point during season 3) dating someone who is probably in her 20s?

Matchstick Jose

Since the actress is 18, I don't know why they didn't just make her 17 or something, and Jake 16.

River Acheron

I'm gonna predict a very high score on this one. But I actually only watched this once when I first binged and it bored me. This was a few years ago and I was a teenager. I would LIKE to think my tastes changed since being bored at home during covid. :P Watching it though fresh eyes may change my opinion.

Fedora The Explorar

This episode would definitely have a greater average if not for the creepiness of the show being okay with a 16 year old dating a 20 year old and how creepy they look as a pair. Its a shame because this is an AMAZING episode otherwise theres just this asterisk at the end

Jonathon Tsagris

I mean Jake already has an age. They absolutely should have made her younger (and therefore not a Dabo Girl.

Matchstick Jose

Have they ever actually told us Jake's exact age in the show?

Jonathon Tsagris

They mention it in this episode (and I was actually off a little, I was going by rough napkin math)

Summer

Great one, Cirroc has always had the birthmark but he grew in the last season almost as much as the Jem Hadar. For some reason before Odo thought he should be in security even in his bucket, now he wants to shape shift. I knowwhat you might not like and sadly a lot of fans like it, but knowing you guys after all these videos….I think there is a 60% chance you won’t like blank (not referring to the obvious, think about what Josh and Alex have disliked or been underwhelmed by. In fact I lay down odds that the one most hate one of the guys will at least have an interest in.) Few actually rate on imdb,any who haven’t should.

A Plain and Simple Tailor

This is an episode great on a rewatch. Seeing jemHadar lore be slowly unfolded is fun to see

Jonathon Tsagris

IMO all of the best episodes of Star Trek predominantly involve some people talking in a room. Sometimes you only need a couple of them (duet comes to mind)

Goddess of Empathy

No spoilers, obviously, but I did immediately run to check which episode Season 3 episode 5 of VOY was 🤣

Summer

Me too

Trent Bowles

I loved the amount of restraint they showed by not revealing the child was a Jem'Hadar right away. Strangely, Odo only has that single scene with Kira before that reveal, so it doesn't even feel like it's going to be an Odo episode early on. Normally in a Trek episode, if it's a lore drop episode, you know it right away. Here, you really have no reason to expect the baby to be part of a lore drop, since the direction of the episode makes it seem like it's going to be a standalone "Alien of the week" story unraveling the mystery of the child's species. Hell, almost seems like it's going to be a "Quark shenanigans" episode for a bit. Really makes the twist effective, and allowed a wonderful subversion to Star Trek episodic tropes. At the same time, however, it IS episodic, so it's not so much of a subversion that it no longer feels like Trek. This hits at a core appeal of DS9 for me: serialized storytelling in an episodic format. A "Best of Both Worlds" in more ways than one.

Darren

Kinda shocked this is rated so low on IMDB it’s a great episode, it’s DS9 not taking the easy cosy route and fleshing out the Jem’Hardar

Collin Freeman

Definitely a good episode. You could also throw in Suddenly Human into the TNG mash-up. Jake gets a girlfriend (boy, does he ever). Good moments for Odo, including the ending. Avery Brooks did a pretty decent job as director. Win, win, win all around.

Trent Bowles

Making her underage would have been even more problematic. Jake was just too young for the storyline they gave him, full stop. I tend to give them a pass considering just how many worse examples there are of stuff like this on 90s TV (see something like "Blank Check" which I think came out the same year), and am just thankful the actress was more age-appropriate to playing love interest alongside Cirroc Lofton.

Jonathon Tsagris

yeah I was doing some napkin math and I was off. IMO it's still really creepy. The point of the scene was Sisko finding out that Jake writes poetry, and has mysterious depths he wasn't aware of, they could have accomplished this by having Jake date a girl his own age. I do like the episode as a whole though.

Jonathon Tsagris

I think it would have been fine if she'd been 16 and not a Dabo Girl. 16 year olds date; it's perfectly normal. They just don't normally date 20 year olds.

Keith S

I liked the Dobo girl she was very insightful, and she really cared about Jake. Jake also seemed to care very much for her. I was getting the feeling the relationship hadn't gone full blown physical yet. In spite of two insensitive to go that way. I'm not blind.

Clyde Frog

I'm shocked nobody mentioned the fact that the Founders implanted a flaw in the Jem'Hadar's DNA to make them need a specific enzyme to survive. One that only the Founders can supply to them. Brilliant way to exert control over someone. Evil idea but brilliant writing. Love this show so much.

Clyde Frog

*Spock/Data voice* Fascinating.

Reality Strikes

69 DUDE! The pink haired alien is from The Homecoming, Ep1. The opening scene.

Sam Langanke

Creepy? I dated a 21 year old when I was 16. And it was AMAZING! (Did you have sex on a beach under the moonlight in Spain?)

The Ninth Doctor

That's something I love about these reactions: seeing these episodes through fresh eyes. After all these years, there's still something in these stories to enjoy on a rewatch. Cheers guys!

Phenomenon (Doo - Dooo - Dah - Doo - Doo)

As soon as Josh mentioned that this was a blending of "The Bonding", "The Offspring" and "I, Borg" while still being it's own original story, I thought "How the the ever-loving **** did I not notice that in over 30 years of rewatching this?? Stop making me feel clueless, guys! I'm gonna develop a complex if you keep this up"

Christopher Hayes

Historically it's not creepy. That more of a modern thing tbh.

Phenomenon (Doo - Dooo - Dah - Doo - Doo)

I try to avoid rating things on IMDb because they start flooding me with unwanted "suggestions" that make no sense. "We see you liked 'Conan the Barbarian'. Why not try 'Philadelphia'?"

Summer

Thankfully I deleted so many of their emails I don’t get them any more Trek is the majority of my ratings so that helps.

Ross Townsend

The Bonding WAS a forgotten episode. Alex is right about that, and it's what keeps me coming back to watch with you guys - new perspectives and awe about these stories. Whatevergreen, though. I loved this episode before The Bonding.

Ryan

I kept thinking about the Founder insisting that Odo wants order, not justice. What a beautiful way to prove her wrong.

Tim Nikiforovs

the scale patterns on their foreheads are similar. For all we know the hunters are dominion members and Tosk and his kind are knock off Jem Hadar bred for the hunt.

Matchstick Jose

Asking Josh and Alex about DS9 in season 1 and 2: Hey, isn’t this a great show? “I don’t see it… I don’t see it.” Asking Alex and Josh after The Abandoned: “I see it!”

Joe Concepts

I like this one but, I'd only go as far as A. Surprised you guys liked it that much.

Matchstick Jose

Couple moments I really enjoyed in the discussion. Alex rules-lawyering why this can be considered Season 3, Episode 5. Watching the hamster wheel spin furiously in Josh’s brain trying to remember which episode the Boslic captain appeared in before and what she gave Quark.

Sam Langanke

I think it's more an American thing.

Jonathan

This is an episode that was an exciting episode on first time watch with getting to learn more about the Jem Hadar but gets skipped on rewatch. I had a hunch you guys would like this more then the audience because it’s an emotional story like The Bonding. Watching this originally I didn’t think that girl looked 20 either. Back then a relationship between a 16 and 20 year old wasn’t too uncommon but it was usually teenage girls and college guys. Many of my high school friends found the guys in our class too immature to date.

Tim Nikiforovs

I'd guess most people rate certainly the main story of this episode as at least a banger, if not A tier. I wouldn't give this a S either, but it's a solid episode. Regarding Mardah looking older than 18, I was just talking about this earlier. I was watching a podcast and they were talking about how athletes in the 70s and 80s could be in their 20s and already be looking like they were in their 40s. Millennials are widely acknowledged as aging far better than previous generations tended to at the same age. I think there are a few factors there. 1, smoking is a lot less common. 2, people are more conscious to stay hydrated. And 3, more of an effort is made to avoid direct sun exposure, which may be the single biggest factor. Could also be we've spent so much time playing video games and watching Netflix instead of "touching grass" that we've avoided sun exposure inadvertently. So Mardah looking 30 may at least partially just be a modern perception and not so uncommon back in the 90s. Is a 16 year old guy dating a 20 year old girl a bit creepy? Maybe a bit, but let's face it, at 16 and in Jake's shoes, we'd all be saying "would". I kinda like that Sisko ended up almost seeing her as an informant on his own son. I say every indication we've seen points to the Jem'Hadar not really having a say in their genetic engineering. Odo said he wanted to try and undo some of the damage his people caused. The Jem'Hadar by all indications are essentially slaves. Of course not in the typical manner. There are no chains, they're not being held at gunpoint, and they clearly have enough agency to be effective soldiers, but their loyalty to the Dominion and the Founders is programmed and they really have no choice. As if that weren't enough, we now find out they're all kept drug addicted, presumably on the off chance they're ever able to overcome that programming. I appreciate Odo and Kira's interactions here. She knows he's being naive, but she respects what he's trying to accomplish, and as you said she's not happy about being right at the end. Kira has been on a journey to overcome her dark past since the show started, and now that Odo knows his people run the Dominion, he finds himself on a similar path. She's not going to stand in the way of his efforts to prove he's not like them. I think she mostly didn't want to see him get hurt. As he said, the jem'hadar probably couldn't harm him(if the changelings are unwilling to harm each other, it's doubtful they'd program their soldiers to be able to), however Odo's failure to save the boy from his own nature was still a painful lesson to learn. Also Odo's plan to run off to unexplored space really wasn't all that well thought out. What happens when they run out of the drug that can't be replicated? Solid episode though. Helps to flesh out the dominion/JH lore, and a great character piece for Odo. I think it's funny how back in The Search you were worried they wouldn't have time for eps focused on individual characters, and now we've had a Quark, a Dax, a Kira and an Odo episode all in a row.

Andy

Said it before but this is the type of episode where you guys add so much value. Watching this in isolation makes it a much better episode. Watching it through your eyes is a genuine pleasure. Thank you so much

Matchstick Jose

I would like to request that Gul Dukat introduce me at my induction ceremony. That way, I can just chill while he rambles on for an hour-and-a-half, and then finally I can just step up to the podium and say: “He said it all. Bye.”

tyranusfan

Going to look and see what Voyager 3x5 is...

Elizabeth N

I love how much you loved this one! This is one of the reasons I love DS9. The 'slow burn' aspect of it. All this lore about various things, whether that's Bajoran stuff, Cardassian, Trill or Jem' Hadar, is sprinkled in throughout the episodes and seasons which ends up paying off so well in both character based plots and more action based plots. The show isn't fully serialised, but is definitely at its best when it builds on what came before.

Narnman

The bad thing about watching this late is yall say the things i wanted to say but dont want to repeat myself! One funny thing Alex and I noticed was the npc randomly walking inbetween Kira and Odo having a serious chat about the jem hadar

Worf and Riker Ride Again

Come on guys, you know young Chief was out every night getting drunk, brawling with officers and bedding their girlfriends. That’s why he never made in officer school, despite being the best engineer in Starfleet.

tyranusfan

It does, in fact, exist.

Philbot

I don’t know which one is going to disappoint you guys but it will probably be a Quark episode. 😆

Philbot

I don’t remember. Oh! Well you can say it’s a character based one?

Paul O'Neal

Great reaction guys! With my comment, I'm basically saying that if the episode is telling us "these aliens are inherently violent and angry and have no free will" and giving it a pass because they were genetically engineered to be that way is kind of like the argument that real life racists use to justify bigotry and prejudice towards minority groups. And from a modern point of view, saying that any sentient being is inherently "bad" is not a good thing. I personally get where the episoode is coming from, and think Odo saying "no, I don't believe that and we can give this kid other, better choices" is incredibly admirable. But as of the end of the episode, it looks like the Jem'Hadar are irredeemably "bad" no matter what. Question: Do you think that this is correct? Is it something you think the series needs to address further? I will offer no spoilers. I just think it's an interesting point of discussion, and I am glad the episode does not take an easy out on it no matter what.

Philbot

90’s were different. I remember reading in people magazine about a 14 year old kid with a 21 year old GF. They framed it like isn’t it great how kids are coming into their own! I was like WTF? I was only a few years older then but it seemed odd.

Philbot

Li Nalas’ earing.

River Acheron

Update: Yeah. I actually found it better than I remembered. Not S mind you, but a solid A.

River Acheron

Well we have no idea what the age of consent is in the Federation so I don't think it's creepy. I really have no opinion on laws or social conventions that are not said on screen.

River Acheron

Not really in the sense we are subscribing 2026 American ethics on a different time-period and government. We don't know if it's socially acceptable or not. I actually think that her profession is more creepy. But even that may be my bias. In Anthropology class we were warned not to judge other cultures by our own social conventions. Taboos are not some absolute magic thing handed to us. They vary. We have no idea what the Federation considers an adult, or consent or anything like that. Being that it's never said on screen, there's nothing to judge.

Philbot

+ She probably has her own room. Jake does not, but at 16 bruh 🤦🏾‍♂️

tyranusfan

I can say that there are characters in it

JRandolph

When you question this episode's 6.9 IMDB rating, recognize that the rating is relative. It's mostly from viewers who have watched all of DS9 and they're rating it compared to the overall episode list because IMDB didn't exist until after many of us had seen the entire series.

Evan Guthrie

Holy cow I never considered that

Evan Guthrie

A lot that sticks out about her

Target Audience

As I say in the discussion (54:10), in this individual situation, I understand why Odo says what he does at the end, however if they came about the same situation again, morally, they should try again. Because it didn’t work in this one case doesn’t mean that’s the result every time. To me it’s the difference between “the show/writers are telling us this is the truth” and “this character realistically would think this in this moment.”

Numinous2019

The Bonding is not memorable by the standards of TV shows of that time. Alex and Josh most likely have not seen that much of similar shows/stories from that era. The Bonding is not in any way lacking, it just gets lost in dozens and dozens of similar or better such stories.

HS

I doubt that. These guys have enjoyed Ferengi episodes. Just like Lwaxana episodes, you either love or hate the Ferengi episodes. I love em all. They won't be S or even A tier, but I doubt they'll be disappointed, or single one out as an episode that breaks any streak. They're certainly more entertaining than the last Dax episode, which they said was still a fine ep.

HS

"The Abandoned" being an S-tier episode that makes them finally see that DS9 has arrived was definitely not on my bingo card. These guys are unpredictable 😄

Forbidden Donut

Another Paramount Plus special? I kept having to adjust playback on both you and my copy to keep this (more or less) in sync.

Target Audience

I don’t care about other TV of the time. For Star Trek, which we’ve watched over 300 episodes of, it’s very memorable.

Ashley Sigmon

S for subverts normal Star Trek tropes?

Clyde Frog

Damn dude. I never considered that either. Great little detail you caught there.

Troubled Tribble

This episode is an example of how to do exposition properly.

Loot Narsbaar

1) We don't know how Bajorans age, 2) how many other people that age range are available on the station (remember everybody moved away a few episodes ago) the dating pool might be next to zero... but yes red flags

Dr. Paul Stubbs

Would have been a Stefan Urquelle episode.

Loot Narsbaar

People don't like this episode??? What the H--??? This was the point in the show, as a mere 10 year old, where I could tell the show had equaled the same level of quality as TNG.

Loot Narsbaar

Neither here nor there but I ordered a complete series box set only to eventually find the season five discs were unplayable. The busted DVD problem is real.

Forbidden Donut

Not specifically about this episode, but the concept of which seasons the series 'gets good' or 'hits its stride' or is at its 'peak' is interesting to me because I find that I sometimes change my mind on what exactly I feel or believe to be the 'best' of a series. Sometimes, I think it's my faulty memory, like there are some TNG Season 6 episodes I think I mis-remembered as having been in Season 5, and sometimes I think I just change my mind when I rewatch. For DS9, I've previously thought of seasons 3-7 as 'peak', then more recently I amended that to 4-7, with 3 being a good season but more of a bridge between the early stuff and 4-7. But between watching season 3 again with you, and refreshing my recollection on season 7 (obviously I won't say anything about it), now I'm starting to think it's seasons 3-6. I still like Season 7 plenty, but in terms of 'peak' I'm wondering if 3-6 really may be it. I'm sure this isn't really the right place to have a discussion about it, but some of what was said in the post-episode discussion got me thinking about this.

Forbidden Donut

As to the episode, I like it, but it doesn't reach S for me. More of a low A. I don't know if that's judging it on a series-wide curve, or it just grabbed me less than it grabbed you. It's certainly interesting, and I like what we learned about the Jem'Hadar and the Founders, and there's good character stuff, but for some reason it just doesn't 100% 'do it for me' like other episodes can.

Matchstick Jose

Putting aside whatever people think of the Jake-Mardah story, the issue I have always had with this is that the reveal that the kid is a Jem ‘Hadar does not come until 19 minutes in. So, basically, the episode is half over before Odo gets involved and the story really starts. Just feels very truncated, IMO.

Forbidden Donut

I really appreciate how they manage to write these character episodes yet within them we get more Klingon lore, Trill lore, Cardassian lore, and Dominion lore at the same time.

Numinous2019

Yes, there are objectively 'bad' episodes in S3 and the remaining seasons. My guess about people here saying "That WAS the last bad episode" is that a BAD episode now won't cause you to lose faith in DS9. It will be a bump in the road.

Deliximus

I really love this ep. Just great acting, story, dialogue, and adds onto the Dominion lore.

Deliximus

I love this pace of releasing reactions

Dr. Paul Stubbs

This is my second time watching DS9. I had seen TNG episodes here and there as a kid, but like you two, didn't sit down and watch Trek from start to finish until I was an adult, about 10-15 years ago. I remember just enough from my first viewing to, for example, realize that the kid is a Jem'Hadar before the mid-episode reveal, know about the genetic engineering, as well as the Jem'Hadar's drug dependency. I think those twists and lore drops do a lot to elevate this episode on a first viewing, which is why you are seeing a generally warm A/B reaction from us patrons. I will be interested to see how you feel after a re-watch or two. By the way, I don't know if anyone has pointed this out, but the Jem'Hadar have had that IV drip inserted in their neck since they were first introduced at the end of S2. Nice bit of continuity.

Steve Kaye

I've watched DS9 all the way through three times now over the past 20ish years or so. I have to say, watching it again with you guys, especially with the post episode discussions and takes is really giving me a fresh perspective on it all. You pick up on things that I maybe missed or just didn't pay much attention to, and even when you dislike something that I liked, it's still a new perspective that I can appreciate (except for the season two finale ;) )

Naglfarius

Yeah this is S for sure. But i know when i first watched DS9 in my Youth this would have been an B Tier Episode for me. But i changed over the Years, and i crave Character driven Episodes so much more now. I knew you would love this. :)

BN13

I think in this episode specifically, the goal was to establish a baseline for the Jem'Hadar for the audience. The goal was to tell us everything that they were genetically programmed to be, and how hardwired all of that is in them. It makes this Jem'Hadar a little 1-dimensional, but that was the point. It's to show us that these aren't normal people that you can change or reason with. They are dedicated to what they were created to be. Now will every single Jem'Hadar respond the way that this one did to their genetic programming? Who knows? Even with their genetic programming, the Jem'Hadar are still people. We are at the beginning of the show here. This is the baseline for how the Jem'Hadar work, but there are still plenty of stories to tell with them now that that baseline has been established. Just like how the Jem'Hadar episode was the baseline for the Dominion. Also, I agree with Josh. Just from a moral standpoint, even if someone has proven that they are "beyond redemption" so to speak, you should still offer them every chance to chose differently as long as you can do so safely. Or in this case, you should still keep extending chances out to other Jem'Hadar just as Odo did. You just shouldn't expect much, but you never know if something might actually help. I also never got the impression that the message here was anything racist like "it's ok to hate the Jem'Hadar because the Jem'Hadar are inherently evil, or are subhuman by design." I thought they were clearly sending a message on how messed up the Founders are for making them this way. If anything, the Jem'Hadar should be pitied, not hated. But the crew is still right; they are still dangerous. I never saw their response as racist either. They just know they're extremely dangerous and they know very little about them otherwise. You can love and appreciate a lion for instance; but you would never let one roam the station free killing people. Without any other knowledge about them, they have to take precautions and ere on the side of caution.

Carsten Tassilo Gräbe

Kira is fully aware that she was a terrorist. She didn't need to sugarcoat it. She did what she deemed necessary. That's what makes her special to me.

BN13

Yeah, this episode is great, and it does exactly what it needs to do at this point in the show. It's just that the curve with DS9 from this point out is THAT high.

Drake

i doubt star trek would have age of consent of 18 xD i mean in most of the world its 14-16 right now

Derek Locke

6.9 IMDB is ridiculous! This was a fantastic episode

BN13

Yeah, The Jem'Hadar might not have been the greatest episode on its own. But it's the necessary foundation for everything great that comes later that builds on it, like this episode. As a result, people like and remember that episode more for what it represents, the start of everything Dominion related, more than the actual episode itself. People forget that you have absolutely no reason to care about the Dominion in that episode. But the more you learn about the Dominion, the more you will care.

Cranky Grandma

I was about your age (TA) when I watched this. I liked it. Probably a solid B back then. My kids were little, and I didn’t think much about teenage Jake and an older woman. I thought they were doing the trek thing anbout prejudging annd and finding you were wrong. But now, after I raised two boys through their teens (girls too) I see it another way. I rewatched it in prep for your viewing, my brain screamed “SISKO!WTF ARE YOU DOING!” Honestly I had such negative reaction I forgot the parts I liked. Age does make us sometimes wiser and almost always crankier😄.

Doctor Pulaski

Always loved this episode. Perfect way to flesh out the threat of the Jem'Hadar.

Todd

I can't wait to watch Generations with you folks. It's been a while since I've seen it.

BN13

Regarding Odo, yes he didn't have quarters before this. But knowing his personality, I'd say he didn't want quarters until now because he didn't see the point of them. All he needed was his bucket, so why waste space? Odo likes being efficient. That's why everybody got very curious once he finally requested quarters here.

Deliximus

Just went through the s3 ep list. It's about 95% good

Doug

Guys I'm starting to think DS9 might be pretty good. This has always been an episode I liked but I was not at all expecting you guys to like it so much! Watching the episode I didn't ever even get the impression of how much you loved it until the whiteboards.

Ca$hWednesday

Prime example of how DS9 handles these kinds of stories over DS9. TNG would have reformed this Jem'Hadar. DS9 writers are like... nah he's a monster.

Jonathan Llyr

Do we have a frame of reference at this point in the show of what a 20 year old BAJORAN female would look like? How long is a year on Bajor compared to Earth? Whatever the answers I think the Chief hit it right when he said, “Godspeed Jake!”

BN13

This is a show though where, unlike TNG, I think a lot of the fan favorites will also overlap with your own favorites. Not always of course. But with this episode as an example, a lot of DS9's plot episodes tie directly in to how the characters are experiencing those plots. And a lot of DS9's most iconic moments are actually character moments. Fans just don't tend to view things through the character lens which is why they get caught off guard when you don't like something they love. I guess this season will be a good indicator to see how much you'll piss off the fanbase for the rest of the show.

Ca$hWednesday

I give it a high-B. I don't know what it is. I think it's a really good episode, it has great lore in it. I like the Odo focus, but for some reason it doesn't really hit any higher for me. Duet is an "S" tier for me, and this is not on that level imo.

BN13

Yeah this one isn't an S for me just because i first watched this show out of order on reruns, so by the time I saw this episode, I think I had already seen seen most of the show, so nothing new was revealed here to me. It was like finally watching a show's pilot after you had already seen the show. If you are watching in order though, this episode does exactly what it's supposed to do, and it's done very well! Totally understand the S, especially at this point in the show. It's like a hint at what's to come. I just personally wouldn't rank this one an S if I'm ranking the entire series as a whole. Some Ss are definitely coming up this season though, including one of my favorite episodes of all time.

BN13

I think the Ferengi episodes this season are particularly good.

Doctor Pulaski

Seeing a Galaxy Class blow up hit harder in 1994 when I was a teenager. This was pre-MCU, Pre any new Star Wars, pre Matrix, pre everything we take for granted now. I remember being hooked in, "Best of Both World's" style (which also hit harder back in the day - the summer between TNG season 3 and 4 all I could think about was Locutus and how they would get out of it.) I can understand why Josh and Alex's generation is less impressed by this stuff, and I am actually glad they are more focused on the substantive story elements and characters. We haven't even gotten to the good part of Season 3 yet...

Deep Red

I know exactly where the streak is gonna end. Soon. Buuuut after a stumble we're back on track, baby

BN13

I get hooked by all of that stuff too even if I didn't see any of it live. But that still doesn't change that the only thing the Jem'Hadar episode tells us about the Jem'Hadar and the Dominon, is that they are an OP threat that's serious. That's enough to get a lot of people initially invested, including myself. But the Dominion and the Jem'Hadar don't actually get interesting and get you really emotionally invested in them until you learn more about them.

EnigmaticPenguin

I’ve always enjoyed how Sisko has a much more casual connection with members of his crew than Picard. Part of this is a less stuffy personality, but he’s also much closer in rank being only a Commander.

Mark Simonson

Same here. I'm watching the DVD version.

Target Audience

Kira said her mom died under occupation when she was 3. The occupation was 30 years, so even if the death was in the very first year, Kira can't be older than 35. We saw Kira 5ish years ago in Necessary Evil, where should would have been at most 30. Realistically, she is probably in her late 20s now and around 20 during Necessary Evil, but i don't think it's exactly revealed as of right now.

Matchstick Jose

Kira's line from Maquis Part I: “But I lived with them for 26 years before the liberation came.” So, I think that puts Kira at about 28/29 at this point in the series. Nana Visitor was a bit older than that, so she’s playing younger.

Altariel

I think it terms of continuous quality from episode to episode, these couple of episodes are as good as it gets for s3.

Groovybaboon

It's an S for me. And an S reaction too! So much fun watching along with you guys!

Shanelle

Bumper Robinson was such a 90s staple. I recognize him immediately even with that mask.

Loot Narsbaar

It's not an S-Tier banger like Star Trek VI, just a really solid episode that picks up in the second half.

Loot Narsbaar

Him going into dad mode with the child is a delight

Shanelle

Cress Williams on the other hand (the s2 finale JemHadar) totally surprised me when I looked him up recently. I know the actor but he disappeared in this role. In a good way.

Doctor Pulaski

These episodes have been great, I'm just saying I like the back half of Season 3 even more. Prediction: TA will put DS9 season three as a contender for best trek season so far, up against TNG Season 6.

Doctor Pulaski

I don't understand this at all, I assumed this was a fan favorite for sure. Of course, can IMDB voters really be considered fans?

Captkirc

Anyone who says that is clearly forgetting about one infamous episode in particular

BN13

I agree with your prediction. There's a ton of character focused stuff in the back half of season 3 too, so I think the boys will highly enjoy.

BN13

I think it's "confirmed" in a non-canon source that the hunters are Dominion members specifically because the Dominion wanted the hunter's technology in order to create the Jem'Hadar.

Doctor Pulaski

I assumed that too, but TA might surprise us with that one. Look at who directs it.

Doctor Pulaski

Am I the only one who thinks Mardah looks like a 20 year old? A very hot one, for sure, but nothing old looking about her..

Spencer Loften

Reactions/discussions like this are the reason I still sub to you guys. I never thought of this as more than a B tier episode. It's great when you guys enjoy a random episode that I didn't particularly care for.

Loot Narsbaar

I'm glad you guys are having fun. Show isn't even firing on all cylinders yet.

Loot Narsbaar

"No Blood in Blood Oath" lol Keep busting balls about that and I'll keep busting balls about ST6

Steven McDowell

Cress, I knew (“Mr. Black Lightning,” himself). But I didn’t realize that was Bumper at all. Wow…So many 90s memories and feelings all at once hahaha. Throw in Clarence and Phil, and you have a party!

Steven McDowell

Wow, checking out Bumper Robinson’s IMDb: starting with “The Jeffersons”, later portraying a Young O.J. Simpson in a tv movie and recurring roles on “Days of Our Lives”, “Amen”, and “Night Court”, to multiple notable appearances, now landing a MULTITUDE of video game and animated voice acting roles, including Ben 10, Transformers, Futurama, Pinky and The Brain, Fallout, and the Final Fantasy VII Remake. Holy moly! And yeah, The Abandoned was AMAZING. One of the episodes that first come to mind when thinking about DS9. Really glad Avery got to direct it.

Shanelle

Didn’t know anything about the voice roles but that face and attitude, yes. All over tv.

sword bard

I feel like a LOT of Odo's motivation was a sort of displaced "I wish someone had done this for me." Not that he didn't genuinely want to help the guy. But being that intense about it, being willing to give up everything in his current life on zero notice, all that yelled Odo's Personal Abandonment Issues projected on really needing to believe he could save this kid.

Scarpad’s Domain

The Kid in the bonding sunk that episode for me he was just horrible

Steven McDowell

I thought the same thing in reference to that storyline. Different cultures view maturity surrounding alcohol consumption in a variety of ways and for different reasons. And yeah, age of consent mirrors that.

Steven McDowell

And even as a teenager, seeing an episode of my favorite franchise essentially do a play on “Oh, ‘those’ people” was ballsy, and has since stayed in my mind. S-tier.

Scarpad’s Domain

Bajorrans are deeply religious so i think they would look down on being a dabo girl

Paul

We weren't kidding when we said S3 and beyond is astonishingly good. Also I'm 100% with you Josh, on Marda the Dabo girl, I figured she was at least 25-30. That Bajoran Nose makeup must do something funky on gut estimations. (But it makes Nana Visitor look even cuter / younger...) This was in passing, but the line that sticks with me most from this episode has nothing to do with the main story, but rather Marda talking about her family, and how there's not much to her story. A familiar tale. Both parents killed when I was 8. Wait, holy Christ damn... Extremely solid episode, though I can't put it at the same level of The Offspring though because I didn't get any visceral emotions boiling up. The Offspring makes me cry every time.

International Man of Leisure

I really enjoy all the character moments they drop into the episodes. Sisko's fawning over a baby, his gentle teasing of his son, Kira bringing a plant to Odo's new place, etc. Stuff that does nothing to further the plot of the week, but does everything to develop these characters into real people who have real emotions and who you can begin to have a personal investment in.

captveg

I looked up Voyager S3 E5 and I think the reaction to that one will be fun to watch no matter what they think of it, for reasons.

captveg

I'm guessing their S3 D2 DVD is faulty since it froze 2/3rds through the prior episode. So probably two more episodes before they use the DVDs again.

Back Flip Bet

It doesn't seem like their religious hang ups have puritan sexual hang ups. Kira bangs the vedict guy in their Vatican.

Back Flip Bet

Picard would have his feet up on the desk then when someone rang his door bell he would put his feet down and fix his shirt. Sisko would probably throw them a bass stand say hello

Deliximus

I dunno. It's such a subpar film. But who knows to them!

Paul

It doesn't further the plot, but it furthers the audience caring about the plot when it does arrive.

Paul

Yeah I actually think they'll like it. S tier, no. But B ish? Yup.

Paul

Yeah I figure their age of consent would be around 16, post-puberty.

Some Guy

They might look down on gambling, though

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

People hate it because it is an affront to their dogma - They want Star Trek to preach their cherished values, not challenge them. The 'violent' race is supposed to a victim of their upbringing, that can be overcome by love and forgiveness. For the writers to entertain the notion that 'nature' can win over 'nurture' feels to them like a betrayal.

Greg Quinn

I just don't see the bonding ad a great or even especially good episode but to each their own.

Banes

Awesome! And the Sisko impressions...are...a...delight..!

Banes

Just a thought or two - I imagined that Odo stayed in his bucket because he didn't think he needed his own quarters and didn't care to expand his abilities in different ways. He's sad about who his people are, but maybe his experiences there also expanded his mind with new possibilities. Good call about Marta being cast out from her siblings just for working in a casino. But some Bajorans are super religious, so maybe her family was really prudish or something.

paultardspambot .

i feel like that was largely the point. This isn't a case where federation values are going to win pver. Everything we've learned about the Dominion suggests the Starfleet way isn't going to work. I think what the take meant about it being problematic from a modern lens is the idea that some (alien) race is inherently bad and cant be changed. I don't think it's problematic, it's science fiction and not everything has to be a direct analogy to the real world.

paultardspambot .

But religious values can bleed through and its certainly a common thing for societies to look down on women when they have a career that involves using their sexuality.

paultardspambot .

Rappin' Jake Sisko Gambler says to let it ride and then he gives a whirl Forgot the first rule of Dabo- watch the wheel, not the girl You know that I'm in love with my Dabo wheel spinner But I'm still unprepared to bring her home for dinner You see, I'm worried that my dad just can't be impartial More of a Cardassian trial(1) than a fair court martial 'Cause it seems like his judgement's been passed in advance Made up his mind about Mardah before she ever had a chance But she explains about my skills and my knack for an end rhyme While the doctor and the chief are hunting for an enzyme They say this drug dependency is a cold blooded thing to do Even to an enemy soldier they want to analyze like Hugh(2) So the Jem'hadar's discharged to the custody of the Constable As the one the boy will listen to Odo has to be responsible But there's nothing he can do, it's in his blood to fight All that's left for Odo is tell the major she was right.

paultardspambot .

Its completely possible that Bajorans age differently. There's no reason to assume a different species would age exactly like humans

paultardspambot .

Part of Picard's character as highlighted in the finale but a recurring theme throughout the show has been his "great man/loneliness" dichotomy

Sunny

I just squinted hard enough to see gowron’s eyes peeking out from the cowardly lion’s luscious mane. 👏🏽👏🏽

paultardspambot .

They definitely occur though in the context of... DS9 being sort of "epic", much more so then the other treks, which people also love.

paultardspambot .

Agreed. I don't think they're going to like it much. There's so many things that are just like "ugh, why did they make that choice"

paultardspambot .

I feel the opposite. Its not like VD or pregnancy is a concern here. Why should a parent disapprove of his son having a hot girlfriend?

paultardspambot .

In the US it varies from 16 to 18 depending on the state. I also think people are a bit more iffy about that kind of age difference now then they were in the 90s

Sunny

It doesn’t hit my feelings though I find it interesting intellectually. I think that’s the difference for me on S for Duet but low A or high B for this.

Sunny

LOL ok the reveal reaction was so good 😂

paultardspambot .

Tidbits from Memory Alpha- -Behr said they wanted to keep the Jem'hadar and Dominion in the audiences mind but didn't want to do another battle show as a vilian loses their fear factor of the heroes keep fighting them and coming out unscathed. This was a character show that was able to feature the Dominion as intimidating and horrible without an actual battle of imminent threat. -Brooks had his own take (which personally I don't really see) According to Brooks "for me, it was very much a story about young brown men, and, to some extent, a story about a society that is responsible for the creation of a generation of young men who are feared, who are addicted, who are potential killers. -Rene Echevarria commented "A good show for Odo. I think people may have started seeing shades of "I Borg", but the twist on it was that you just can't turn this Jem'Hadar. People felt Hugh had turned, and it was more of a tragedy that he must go back and sacrifice himself for us. This is a different type of tragedy, where we see that there is no turning this type of creature". -Ronald D. Moore commented "It's a good episode and an important one to tell things about the Jem'Hadar that were different than we had dealt with before. I thought it was a good opportunity to show Odo's feelings for his people, but the scenes should have been deeper. Act five is particularly rushed and it doesn't pay off as satisfyingly as it could have". -Odo putting Kira's flowers was intended to be symbolic of his connection to her, that she also always had a special place in his heart. -Rionoj, the Boslic freighter captain who sold Quark the salvage, was previously in the Season 2 episode "The Homecoming." Not sure if someone else mentioned that already, but I didn't see it -The scene where Odo tried to get the Jem'Hadar to smile was partially inspired by a similar scene from Terminator 2.

Summer

I agree with the Doc and Paul, the guys are going to like this one its another that some like that will break the streak.

Matchstick Jose

Might want to delete that info about Voyager. I'm sure they would rather not know that until they watch it.

Laura Thornley

Yeah, he was trying to help 'the boy' (for lack of a better term for someone days old who is almost fully grown already) to prove to himself that he could overcome his own nature and takes it hard when he fails. At least that was my take on it.

Laura Thornley

Considering some of the episodes they've loved, I can't assume anything. I still can't get over their hatred of Star Trek VI.

Laura Thornley

I actually struggle to choose who my favourite DS9 character even is, the cast is that great and bounces off each other so well. I struggle to even have a top five.

Fedora The Explorar

The read about the Jem'Hadar being an allegory about black young men who get addicted to a white substance (crack cocaine/the enzyme) given to them by their masters and then turn violent and commit crimes. Gives a very dark turn to the episode which was already dark.

Laura Thornley

I think the reason she looks older is the hair style - big hair was still fashionable in the early-mid 90's. Hair styles can radically change how old a person looks, just look up historical figures and then be shocked how young they are in their pictures.

Fedora The Explorar

I still agree with Josh that even though they were wrong this time and it was a tragedy next time we should still try to overcome our enemies through love and forgiveness and that nurture wins over nature. But the tragedy of it not working there works really well.

LonghillAndy

Always a sticky subject age of consent, it always throws me out when I see American audiences object to 16 year olds in romance situations since the UK age of consent is 16. So it’s very normal for our 16 year olds to be in a situation where they could be dating someone potentially up to the age of 20. The boundary being well did they start talking when one of them was 15? Then it’s grooming territory. Not trying to trigger a mass debate on this one just pointing out a different view point that sees this as potentially “normal”/not extreme

Jonathon Tsagris

The younger you are, the closer the age needs to be in order for it to be appropriate. 4 years is too much when you’re 16.

Fedora The Explorar

I'm from the UK and there are plenty people who morally dislike it when someone goes out with a 16 year old even if its technically legal

Banes

At least those are my thoughts that come during these scenes - not saying that idea on Marta's siblings is wrong. Or right. Or something else. Or maybe it's 'Marda'.

KingPin124

Awesome reaction!! You guys are enjoying some of these episodes more than I thought you would. Also, I was thinking after this that I’m SO GLAD you didn’t have to watch Meridian right after this one! That would’ve been like falling off a mountain 😂

John

I'm not always good at guessing what you like, but this one, I was almost certain you would like. (More than IMDB in general.)

LonghillAndy

As I said not trying to start a debate on it just pointing out about other places ages of consent and how it might not be seen as “icky” Me and you even though both from the UK are probably from vastly different backgrounds and have different experiences around the subject, I know plenty of people back in my day when at college being 16 dating one of the upper ages in college going to 19 or even dating someone at uni at 19/20 Ironically they then got married and are still married to this day nearly 25 years later so it’s an open perspective at the end of the day

Jason Aud

Probably missed or didn't skim down far enough but the purple haired woman was the one who smuggled out Le Nalas's earing and gave it to Quark to pass along to the right person in "The Homecoming".

JoeCensored

Solid C-B episode, and fun to learn about the Jem Hadar. Odo trying to prove the Jem Hadar is a full person with free will, and ultimately failing, is also interesting to watch. Not that great of an episode on rewatch when you aren't discovering anything anymore, but pretty good on a first watch. edit: Surprised you went with an S, but I understand it

tyranusfan

I think they will like it. They loved Dr Stubbs

paultardspambot .

right, it probably isn't as good on rewatch when you already know the information, but it has to be seen as it occurs in order, deepening the general Dominion lore, which the guys seemed to like it for. Plus this is the sort of episode they really dig.

paultardspambot .

probably dont want to state specific episode titles ahead of time.

KingPin124

They watched it yesterday.

paultardspambot .

In many US states the age of consent is also 16, but there'a a sort of "cultural norm" that it's 18, probably derived from the national standard that 18 is when you can consent to taking nude pictures. This was derived from California which was the first state to really regulate the adult industry, which had 18 as its age of consent law. I think culturally this has become a bigger thing in recent years, but its definitely something people have different feelings/views about. The reality is, we all understand why you shouldnt allow people of any age to exploit young people who are phsyically but not mentally/emotionally mature. The thing is, nothing magical happens on the 18th birthday, and its not an exact line but something someone grows into. There could be 17 year olds who are ready, or 19 year olds or even 21 year olds who aren't. So for legal purposes you have to draw a line somewhere. It is a bit silly though when people say things like, "a 17 year old is a child" but an 18 year old is an adult. For example, I saw this comedy movie (pretty good) called "Waiting" about the hijinks of the crew of a crappy diner. There's one guy whose "the asshole cad" and part of the running gag is there is a 17 year old he is flirting with, who seems to be in him and how everyone else takes it as proof he's a sumbag. But of course, the movie has him as "the guy who outwardly appears as a scum bag but actually isn't. So... SPOILERS... Towards the end, the guy and the 17 year old girl are hanging out in his room I think and are about to hook up. Oh, and one of the details is her birthday is in two weeks which is a "scumbaggy" point he keeps making to the rest of the staff to point out its not a big deal. So at the end, when she tries to iniate a hookup, he stops her and says "wait... we can wait 2 weeks." She replies, "Oh, don't worry. I'm fine with this, I'm not going to like, report you to the cops or anything." Then he says "It's not that. It's just that... I don't want to be taking adavtange of you." And she says something like, see this is why I was willing to hook you up with and you're so sweet, we can wait, then they hug or kiss or something. See, he wasn't a scumbag after all! Except... um... He's worried about "taking advantage of her", but in two weeks it will be totally fine, and in EXACTLY 2 weeks, she would be fully capable of making adult decisions, but two weeks before, he would be taking adavantage of her? That's... pretty silly, but a lot of people treat it that way. It's a process, and if it's really not the law hes concerned with but "taking advantage of her", he's still taking advantage of her 2 weeks later, or if hes not, then its fine now. But some people have this idea that something magical happens when you turn 18. The reality is, that "cultural age of consent" could have been 17 or 19. It happened to be 18 because of historical circumstances. And no, I'm not arguing against age of consent laws or saying what they should be, just that it's a little silly when people act like there is an exact line where its morally ok versus expoitation based on a clock striking a certain number. Its confusing the "map" for the territory. And different cultures will have different ideas of that that come from different historical circumstances, and there isn't an absolute biological line where someone transitions from "child" to "adult." Most people realize this, there are plenty of intermediate stages there, as the general population ages they start to see "adult" in older terms, like people noiwadays who say someone isnt "really" an adult till they turn 25. I find this especially silly, because maturity is NOT a straight line. Older people tend to be more conservative and fearful of "new things" is that because they are more mature, or just because people's perception and experience of things genuinely changes as they enter different phases of life. I always hated the whole "You'll know better when you're older." Because people are biasing their preferences at a later age and comparing the relative experience of things for them as if it was the same when they were younger. For example- "You think it's important to hang out with your friends now, but when you're older you'll wish you worked harder." Um, no. because hanging out with your friends when youre older isnt the same subjective experience when you are younger, and you CAN'T experience the same thing when you are older. They mean "I wish past me had worked harder because I assume I would have had a better life now and hanging out with friends isnt a big deal" but younger them doesnt even know what the future will bring and its a different calculus in terms of preparing for the future and trying to make the most of experiences you can have when you're younger. It's ironic because those who say "youth is wasted on the young"- I'm pretty sure they don't mean "I would have done as many extracuriculars as I could have and sacrificied current happiness and social development for a theoretically better future. And furthermore, one can't really calculate how not having those expereinces when you were younger would affect current day you. Like maybe you have a betrer job and nicer house then you would have, but you never developed social skills and are terribly lonely and its too late to really learn how to make deep connections. Ok, rant over.

Target Audience

Tbf, the patron takes in many cases line up with the IMDb score

Matchstick Jose

They don't know exactly when Voyager is set. Your post spells it out.

Evan Guthrie

I thought he just "slept" in his office, hence Jake and Nog finding his pail there.

MJBull

It is not that they cannot be changed, but they have been engineered on a basic level to be resistant to change by reason. they have to be changed by engineering. Perhaps the most holding to the original concept of Orc of Space Orc species.

MJBull

The other actress they were considering looked even, well, more mature than this one.

MJBull

It seems to be dream religion for La La Land. No hint of sexual moral standards to be found.

MJBull

That noise is why Alex denies women his essence. Getting "6.9" tattooed on your chest will lead to some interesting misunderstandings.

paultardspambot .

It's also a thing that people generally are looking younger then they used to. There are different theories, but I suspect it's the ubiquitousness of endocrine disrupters which are chemicals that are created in industrial binding processes and are in pretty much everything manufactured, not just plastics. There is a chain in them that mimics the effects of estrogen. Not estrogen exactly, but it effects estronergic receptors in disruptive ways. It effects the general endocrine system and lowered levels of tesosterone tend to lead to slower aging. Some people want to chalk it up to styles and such but the evidence is getting harder to ignore when you look at how people look now versus the same age in previous generations. There are other reasons as well- though we are exposed to more of certain chemicals, others, like cigarette smoke and lead and some that age the body more quickly are reduced in the environment. I think this is a much bigger environmental and health problem in terms of how seriousness people are taking it. There is some awareness of plastics, but they are really in anything.

paultardspambot .

ah, I see. I wasn't thinking about it, but hypothetically Voyager could be set 100 years in the future or 100 years in the past. I'll edit the comment,

John A

I remember seeing this and again, feeling Odo was going to change the kids thinking about the founders. Since Odo said he was not better then anyone else, afraid that would now influence the Jem Hadar into now thinking they are better then the founders. That was my thoughts at the time.

Colby

Ironically, there was a lot of Klingon blood in ST6. 😆

Josh Overton

"I do not avoid women, Mandrake...but I do deny them my essence."

Aaron Wells

Kira goes from a standoffish, traumatized, and hostile character to a character most remembered as fundamentally warm and spiritual in a tough as nails shell. My favorite First Officer in all of Trek. I'm happy to see Alex warm to her as her character gets built out. I would have liked to have seen Visitor in more big roles over the years, as I think she's an excellent actress, and at her best on DS9 when that frosty command exterior melts away a bit.

Aaron Wells

The difference between right and wrong and legal and illegal. Maybe I'm a prude, but I think there is a pretty big developmental difference between a 16 and 20 year old. Much more so than a 20 and 24 year old. The lines are draw arbitrarily. But they gotta be drawn.

Skye Maidstone

Apart from the reveal this is such a snoozefest to me. Most of the main cast do nothing much. Some semi ok character scenes. C i guess.

ShazD

Good not great imo.

ShazD

A 20 year old dating a 16 year old is definitely icky and always has been imo.

Lyric

It was good but not that good🤣

Josh Mariota

this was a meh episode for me. easily skipable on a routine bingewatch. I'd give it a D.

Martin Bohnet

I feel somewhat guilty given how young this Jem Hadar is, but that ASS....

Prof Moff

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version Holy she-ite Jake scores. The sex score board Quark 5 Jadzia 2 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 Jake 1 +1 new GUEST: Mardah +1 new DETAILS: In line with our assuming “it is yes if we can assume it”, Jake gets a banger for a bang-her. Nice Jake. He pulls more than his dad.