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UNCUT - Life Support (DS9 S3E13) | Star Trek Journey 344 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-02-18 13:00:16
Edited:
2026-02-19 05:17:56
Imported:
2026-09
Tags:
stj

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Trekkie74205

Michael Piller had left the DS9 writing staff after Season 2 to concentrate on VOY. He gave Ira Behr script notes on the first 13 episodes of Season 3, with the understanding that Ira was not obligated to follow his suggestions. Michael’s last note for DS9 was suggesting they don’t kill Bareil, as they may want to use him again in the future. Ira’s reply was, “Mike, he is going to die”.

William Roberts

without even watching... i know this will be S.

Summer

DS9 is back!

Tim Nikiforovs

Well, if nothing else I'm glad Bareil somewhat won you guys over, even if it killed him😆. This episode had so much potential. I really love the A plot. I agree Bareil is very misused as a romantic interest, but as an ally to the crew and a servant to his people, I think he works well. Also the idea of slowly losing your identity and becoming more and more machine while feeling your consciousness slip away is quite haunting. I do feel some of the dialogue as they're discussing what part of Bareil to replace next to be a little unnatural in how it's delivered. Especially Kira asking if he can replace the rest of Bareils brain. I get she's coping, but it just sounded off. Not Nana's fault, just sounded off to me the way it was written. Both Nana and Siddig were excellent in this one. I love seeing Bashir stand up to Winn and call her on her shit. She may not be as villainous as once portrayed, but she's still on the level of badmirals and politicians, so not exactly principled. The biggest issue I have is the pairing of the A and B plots. I said on the discord the other day that the Nog/Jake plot would have paired well with House of Quark. While Nog was embracing the very worst aspects of how ferengi treat women, Quark was developing real affection and respect for a woman who embodies the polar opposite of ferengi norms. Given Quark is the most successful member of Nog's family that he interacts with regularly and Nog probably looks up to him a great deal, Nog's antics could be seen as an insecure attempt to prove he's a "real" ferengi man. Contrasting that with Quarks story would make Nog look somewhat better as it would show a lot of ferengi don't even buy into those norms deep down and therefore it's probably a phase he'll grow out of. However the A and B plots just DO NOT work together for me. If you enjoy the contrast, cool, but for me it drags what could have been an A tier episode down to a C+. RIP to Bareil. Now every political and religious leader on Bajor amounts to a bag of dicks.

Jonathon Tsagris

Hands down the best thing this show ever did with Bareil

Clyde Frog

God, you guys have been shit talking Bereil since day 1, and I have been waiting for you to get to this episode and see his character and actor redeemed completely. The scene where part of his brain gets replaced and he describes how everything is different now always gives me goosebumps, and is fucking eerie. I adore this episode. I also knew at least one of you would be brought to tears by this ep, like me every time.

Matchstick Jose

Josh so excited about Nog appearance he's spilling drinks!

Monarch Black

I'm looking forward to watching this tonight. It's been a while. I have all 13 movies, TNG and DS9 for uncuts, but I have to wait for YT edits on Voyager or Enterprise.

Gary Willig

Pretty much everyone was waiting for this episode once you guys started hating on Bareil so much. His purpose was to be Winn's political opponent she had to overcome to be elected Kai, so once she was elected there was no more reason for him to stick around and it was only a matter of time before he was killed off.

Summer

So we have a good Voyager next then Sunday the next DS9, so excited. You guys do make me think of checking my imdb votes

Steven Linden

Bareil's acting is so wooden that when he gets zombified, you can hardly tell the difference. I've never liked this one, but I admit it was a bit better on rewatch than I remembered. Bareil is a complete dud and can't carry this episode, but Kai Winn and the Jake/Nog subplot elevate it a bit. I still think the best thing about it is that Bareil is dead, though.

Matchstick Jose

Tears and testicles. What more could you really ask for from a reaction?

D Jammers

I thought another emotional layer to Kia in this ep was early on she actually advocated to Bashir the use of medical procedures to keep him awake because that's what he would want. (even if it may kill him) But like the stages of grief by the end of the episode she's pleading with the Doctor to do anything to save his life.

Jonathon Tsagris

Killing him once wasn't enough, they had to bring him back and do it again for good measure

Sanchi

I think Josh got hit by that "distant memory of a touch" line, he was lookin a bit glassy eyed but Alex just steamrolled over it with the cardboard comments lmao Edit : Just finished, I fucking knew this episode would get Josh crying, every time they made a cardboard joke I was like "just you wait you fucker" 🤣

Jack Molitor

I love the Orwellian speak from the Cardassian guy… “Oh, we’re not holding any prisoners on Cardassia…oh but yes, I suppose we ARE holding a few people in Cardassian prisons, I guess.”

THE LORE!!!

Always had a soft spot for this one, the ratings on IMDB can suck it. I think I was particularly drawn to it because of two things. The replacement of parts with artificial organs slowly until you're no longer you is the origin story for the original Doctor Who Cybermen and I grew up on Trek and classic Who. Also, I dated a woman with a dissociative disorder, and she often would say weird things similar to the "distant memory of a touch" line.

THE LORE!!!

Cardassians are the type who would defend a lie of omission because you didn't ask in a precise enough way.

JordanK1991

Finally! We're back! Don't get me wrong, I like Voyager a lot, but DS9 is the one that has me hooked to this channel. I'm glad you guys got so much out of this episode. Felt so bad for Kira throughout it. Winn is, as usual, pure gold. She, like Dukat, Garak, Keiko and a bunch of the recurring cast you've already met, just elevate every scene they are in. Every time Winn walks in through that airlock, you just KNOW some shit about to go down. Anyways, I'm very hyped for this show. We're just getting started. The best is yet to come. Part of me is a tad miffed that Voyager will slow our DS9 progress, but the other part of me is actually glad, as it means we'll be enjoying DS9 with you for years to come. Qapla'!

Keith S

Your final reaction to this story surprised me. Not that I thought you would yell yea he's dead. However I didnt expect you to cry either. I liked that.

Summer

I knew you guys wouldn’t celebrate, you are not monsters even to fictional characters, but how you felt toward Kira was touching

Matchstick Jose

I don’t see Nana Visitor mentioned often in the same breath as Patrick Stewart, Brent Spiner, Kate Mulgrew, etc., and, IMO, she absolutely should be. I think Kira is an amazing character, and Nana Visitor does not get enough credit for how incredible she is. They put so much on her plate, ask her to play such a wide range of emotions in Kira, and she just delivers again and again.

Zenlike Creature

Producers: Boys, we’ve listened to your feedback regarding Bareil’s character and have taken measures to remedy this situation. 

The boys: You killed him in the opening credits! Jeez! 

Producers: No, we wouldn’t do that.

The boys: Thank goodness for that, we were beginning to feel really bad for the shit we’ve given him.
 
Producers: We’re going to give you hope and then take him away piece by piece until he’s an automaton. Don’t worry, it won’t affect his personality.
 
The boys: Oh my god! You made him worse! Do the human thing, for goodness sake! 
Producers: Ok, ok. We’ll sort it at the end. 

The boys: You assholes, you made us cry! 

This may not have been the episode you were looking for but it certainly lifted your spirits. 

Bashir for the win! Great outing for his character, and a super performance.

Oh, and let’s not forget the character development between Jake and Nog, and Nog’s, how shall we say, questionable dating advice.

 Some interesting themes examined through out in both story lines. Super episode, for me.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Sam Langanke

Best episode of the season? Guys, you have seen nothing yet.

Darren

Forgot how much I do like this one. It’s one of Bashirs best episodes and the Jake and Nog stuff is fun. Nice score too at the end.

Target Audience

Not sure there’s any other channel you’ll find both in the same video

Ryan

Doctors on Star Trek are great because they're the everyman in the ocean of plot. Everyone else is focused on The Federation and The Big Picture, and the doctors get to be the voice of their individual patients. You can tell Ron Moore came into DS9 and said, "Let's turn Bashir into THAT." It's a better show for it.

Actuarial Lurker

I told my wife who is also a big DS9 fan that she should be glad that I don't have her pre-chew my food and that she is allowed to wear clothes. For some reason I'm living out in the shed now and its 29 degrees out...actually we were a bit shocked to hear Nog say these things and that this made it on network TV

Actuarial Lurker

Josh and Alex- If you think Kira has been given a rough story line. In real life, Nana Visitor was kidnapped by two armed men on her way home from the studio after the filming of this very episode, they held her at gunpoint for two days and SA-d her and miraculously let her go. She became an outspoken advocate for women who have been brutalized revealing details of the ordeal in interviews and a book she wrote about the women of Star Trek and the harassment experienced on set. Watch for a much more serious tone in her acting from here on out- she DID NOT miss work despite the trauma. Many fans, like me and my wife, felt like a friend or relative had been assaulted when news leaked on the early internet at the time

Actuarial Lurker

Especially her courage- see my post above about what happened between the filming of this episode and the next...

D Jammers

Agreed, plus we're catching strays from IMDB ratings now? sucks! lol

Elizabeth N

Great reaction! Bashir is my favourite character and this is a great episode for him. I love how much he's grown as a character since Season 1 and can't wait for you to see more of him. His character arc is brilliant.

Colby

In my head, Rob Zombie, "MORE CARDBOARD THAN CARD BOARD!"

John A

When a show can make you shed a tear for a character, that is so flat you do not like and have emotion for his death is amazing.

Colby

Now I'm picturing Kai Winn cutting Nog's food for him. 🤣 (credit to Matchstick's patron take)

TalynOne

You can't blame Nog for his behavior, he's been listening to a lot of Andrew Tate podcasts.

TalynOne

I've seen every Trek series several times. Kira is my favorite of the DS9 cast, and easily top 5 of all characters across all treks.

Worf and Riker Ride Again

I’ve never seen this episode before and wow, what a tragic ending for Bareil! I genuinely felt terrible for him, he’s blown up, brain dead, comes back to life, slowly has all his organs fail, has half a robot brain implanted, then loses the rest of his brain and passes away. The scene where he says everything “feels like a distant memory” is heartbreaking. Poor dude. At least from a lore / viewer point of view, his last episode is his best and his character dies a hero.

Todd “Canuck” Schmuck

It’s nice they actually got to follow through. The whole point of his character in season 1 is a doctor at the top of his class, but no real world experience as a doctor yet. The talented rookie that we get to see grow into his role with confidence as he gets that real world experience. We take it for granted now with serialized tv, but they felt they were taking risks allowing arcs when they wanted people to be able to tune into any random regular episode and be able to follow the story(those of us from that era remember the experience of tuning into a show, watching a part 2 where we never actually saw the first part. We just relied on the recap to tell us enough to follow along).

Erik L Jerks

I heard the story for the first time when Gates McGadden interviewed her on a podcast. I was not prepared. Such a rough story.

Actuarial Lurker

It was a internet leak in 1994 when the filming for the 1995 episodes occurred but as Erik notes It was a 2021 Gates McFadden podcast where Nana talked about it in detail...

Erik L Jerks

You guys did this to Bareil. They went back in time and wrote him off the show!

Matchstick Jose

Amusing anecdote from Rene Echevarria on this episode: “And that’s when Ron said, ‘What about Bareil?’” "The suggestion made sense. The writers weren’t particularly happy with the way the Bareil/Kira relationship was working out and weren’t certain where it should go. There was no sense in the production offices that Bareil was a huge favorite with the fans. Ironic, because after the episode aired, the producers received lots of mail from a fan organization they’d never previously heard of or from: The Friends of Vedek Bareil." “We got letters,” confirms René Echevarria. “We got pictures of a bunch of people at a memorial service for Bareil. Very somber. Angry letters.” 😯

misti-step

remember last video when alex was complaining about how wooden and boring bariel was. i was thinking, just wait

Philbot

I didn’t realize he died this soon it seemed like they were together for longer.

Philbot

Nog got the hot one too.. dumbass!

Philbot

I’ve never heard this before I can’t believe that! 😮

Philbot

Commissioner Belle?

Christopher Boscarino

No one plays an unlikable character like Louise Fletcher. Also I've been waiting for you two to get to this episode after all the trash talking you been giving Bareil.

Laura Thornley

Ah the episode we've been waiting for and I've been biting my lip over. I've not watched the reaction yet, but I do wonder if you're happy about it or feel a bit conflicted.

Laura Thornley

Its like watching paint dry - it feels like forever, even if its five minutes.

Forbidden Donut

The end of this one gets me every time. It's heartbreaking, and Nana Visitor just makes me feel Kira's pain so much. Hell of a way to say goodbye to a character not many really seem to care for very much. Respect to the man for completing his biggest task.

Jeff Cornell

They figured out a way to write Bareil's robotic acting into the plot!

TC Green

I almost feel bad making a joke after it made Josh cry. Almost. Regardless, a solid all around episode

Forbidden Donut

Yeah, I'll be one of those people: In my memory, I thought this was more of a B, but I'll at least up that to an A after watching it with you guys. It's not an S for me, but it's very good, there are at least two great scenes in it. Maybe I'm judging it on a curve based on the episodes I truly love the most. It'll be interesting to see if you feel the same way in a couple of years.

Laura Thornley

Glad you liked it! I will say there's an unspoken aspect to the Nog story - in that he's not acting exactly like Ferengi culture expects towards women, he's actually (in his own way) taking a more moderate 'liberal' approach because Ferengi are just that bad towards women. So his anger likely stems from him feeling like his efforts were unnoticed, even if he's still coming across as a complete jerk.

Forbidden Donut

So, did you guys do a Voyager episode directly after this? Using my reference, I have it that next should be a DS9 episode and then two Voyager episodes. Looks like the next episode of both shows aired on the same day (1995-02-06), but going by 'stardates' mentioned in the episode, technically in canon the DS9 ep happens first, which seems like a reasonable tiebreaker.

Numinous2019

DS9 clearly wanted to snag you both back immediately by killing off your least favourite character.

Aaron Wells

DS9 in general just doesn't get respect. Kira is my favorite Trek First Officer, by a mile.

River Acheron

Its when it aired, not stardate. Even if the airdate was technically wrong in the 90s, they are following the path of when it actually aired.

River Acheron

I know this may sound mean but I don't think the guy who played Vedek Bareil was a good actor. His Lord Byron was AWFUL as well. Same wooden performance. I just don't think the man was very talented. Just my opinion. This is one instance where I do blame the performer. :/ I just have to be honest in what I observe. I do admit those are the only two roles I have seen him in (he doesn't have a lot of credits tbh) but it was the same stale performance and that says to me...ehhhhhh. Not the directors fault. I'm sure he's a nice guy and he was good for humanizing (or bajoranizing lol) Kira, but he was all wrong for the show. I will admit that the Mary Shelly movie he was in where he played Byron was right up his alley. The entire thing was Cardboard and a snooze, so maybe it's just the roles he gets? I dunno. But he was weak even in a movie where everyone was weak! Sometimes it IS the actor's fault. As far as the entire episode goes though? Yeah, it was good! I would say A- and not because he dies! It was at heart a Kira episode and I think this eppie was a fantastic character piece for her growth. I know you love Nog and his stuff was good. Comic relief for me in a solid B-Plot. Didn't LOVE it, but I absolutely didn't mind it either! ps: if anyone has seen our fav Vedik in a GOOD role lmk. I like being proven wrong. I'm only going by two roles I have seen the actor in. I don't mean to insult him! He would have been a favorite of mine in slasher movies where bad acting is part of the charm. He would have been perfect in the B-horror movie circuit! But I don't see that he was ever in those kinds of movies. We would have accepted him there lol

Numinous2019

Exactly what gets included in an episode isn't necessarily what the writing credits show. Showrunners (Behr since the tail end of season 2) and the writers' room all make some level of contribution to character development. Furthermore, Beher and other writers may add in some specific dialogue (or a slight script 'polish').

Numinous2019

My overall opinion is (as a DS9 is best ST viewer) that both DS9 and Voyager would have been better shows if they weren't ST. They were both placed under limitations as to how gritty they could get and the ST 'upbeat' framework would still be in place. If they weren't ST though, they might not have survived their first few seasons without the brand recognition and the potential audiences from the start.

Summer

She talked about it in her book too, it was horrendous

Nolan

Us: Oh, TA loved "The Bonding" because of the grief, they'll love DS9's pilot cause it's all about that." TA: "It's alright " Us: "Oh, TA haaaates Bariel, they'll be glad he's killed off the show." TA: 😭😭😭 Us: 😵‍💫🤷‍♂️

Nolan

Also, sorry for my utter downer of a Take for this episode, if you read it. I get why, if you did, you opted not to put it in the video.

Nolan

Regarding David, I'm not gonna try and change your minds about him, but I do find it interesting you just call him "David Kirk." It's probably because you forgot his and his mom's last name and just went with what you know, but he is "David Marcus." His mom Carol Marcus so didn't want Kirk involved in his life that she didn't even give her kid his father's name. Hell, she never even TOLD David that Kirk was his Dad until Wrath of Khan. David knew him a bit, that he was an "overgrown boy scout" but eventually Carol told Kirk to buzz off. And he respected her wishes. FWIW, he seems sad about having missed so much, seeing him grown.

Summer

It is true with how much you didn’t like Bareil to then get your reaction to this, pure reactor gold, you didn’t know at all what was coming

Ken R

The Ferengi "culture"--if we can even call it that--is not worth trying to give the show wiggle room. People call TOS misogynist, but TOS had T'Pau as basically the leader of the Vulcans, T'Pring being smarter than Spock to the point he needed her to explain the plot, the commander of the Romulans was a woman, Kang's wife was a scientist, the planet where Bones was dying was run by women, just case after case of women running whatever society, the woman who if she touched you your every cell exploded, the blonde woman in the slow-mo world who wanted the ship, the witch in the Halloween episode, the priestess on the Jack The Ripper planet, it just goes on and on. Yes, they wore revealing skirts, it was the fashion of the day. Then there is this crap 30 years later, I don't know where this concept for the Ferengi came from, they suck, and it being their culture doesn't mean we need to respect it. The other thing, I like Bashir too, but I liked him as far back as when he was possessed and got an evil accent. The dead guy, I am sorry he is dead because I like seeing Winn, and if we kill off all her co-stars, as few as there are, who will she act with?

Joshua Gudiso

If a DS9 and Voyager episode aired the same day, it seems TA will watch the opposite show so that it’s not two episodes of the same show back to back. Their schedule for February shows that the next reaction is Voyager (Phage).

Tigers Fan

Sounds like 90% of politicians to me. Why answer the question with clarity when obfuscation is an option? Seems like it's their default setting (and has been for decades, maybe centuries).

Christian Sander

Funny, that Mr. Eisenberg was already about 27 years old when this episode was shot. :-D

Darren

It’s not really RDM who decided that. According to Michael Piller the intention with Bashir was to start to out imperfect and have him grow into his hero status.

River Acheron

From what I read though, DS9 had VERY few limits once Voyager aired, as the powers-that-be (Berman) let them run wild. To me this is when Ira really shined! And the show becomes what it becomes. There are times coming up when I actually forgot I was watching a Star Trek I.P.

jon bolton

Tears Josh for Bareil! I had a feeling you'd both like this one, but i wasn't expecting you to love it this much. I like it too and give it a B. In Season 1 i know neither of you had fully warmed to either Dax or Bashir who along with Chief are my favourites, i predicted at the time by Season 3 you'll love them both. The Cardassian property they wanted back was almost certainly DS9, so they could get rid of the Federation in that area of space, be in charge of the wormhole and maybe even re-invade Bajor, but that's my opinion.

Zerocooleo

Bareil gets upgrade from cardboard to plastic

Target Audience

Extremely rare we would ever read a take and not put it in the video

BN13

Kai Winn's praise to Vedek Bariel and letting him do all of the peace negotiations makes perfect sense for her character, especially if you view her, as I do, as a spiritual narcissist. Kai Winn wants the power, prestige, and glory of being the Kai, but she doesn't actually want the responsibility of it. She doesn't want to do the nitty gritty stuff that the job requires, like the paper work, or conducting negotiations. She views the actual job details as beneath her. As tasks to be delegated to people who don't matter so she can focus on the "higher" things that she actually wants to be doing. Like convincing people that she's the best Kai ever and Bajor needs her. Also, underneath it all, she knows she's actually incompetent at these things and can't handle the real job. If Kai Winn handled these negotiations herself, she would have signed DS9 away to the Cardassians and not even have known it. That's what the Legate was trying to get when he said "anything of Cardassian origin." Bashir sees this when he calls her out and tries to spin conducting the negotiations as a way for her to gain glory, and she responds by revealing that she's using Bareil as a sheild against her own incompetency. Plus Kai Winn admits in another scene that she "KNOWS she is destined to rule her people. But she was not meant to talk with Cardassians about meaningless details in some stuffy room." Plus Bareil knew she wasn't qualified all the way back the episode Collaborator. That's why he's been doing all the work behind the scenes. He decided to do that as soon as he stepped down. He was willing to put his own glory and prestige aside in order to make sure that Bajor actually got what it needed even if Kai Winn got all the credit. Kai Winn will always put whatever Bajor needs aside in favor of her own glory and prestige. She cares about Bareil as much as she would any of her chess pieces, but that's the extent of it. She does have a vulnerability to her, but it's always behind that narcissistic exterior and need for power.

Godzilla PhD

I knew they'd enjoy that last shot.

Numinous2019

Yes, while that's true, DS9 doesn't go to the places something like Blake's 7 did.

Numinous2019

Great comment and perfect analysis of how Winn Adami sees everything and everyone.

Ryan K

Your reactions and ratings continue to baffle, exasperate and delight me.

Who North America

The first time watching DS9, I really did not like Bareil until we got to the episode Fascination, where everyone is falling into infatuation with each other, and he's not that bad. Then we got to this episode, which heavily influenced me on future re-watches. Now, whenever I get to an early Bareil episode and start to think, "I don't really like this character," I counter with, "Yeah, but he ultimately gives his life for the hope of his people," and it just hits differently.

Loot Narsbaar

Back in the Gem Da’har Quark brags that Fergeni have never had slavery. I call bullshit. There’s no way they can treat women like this without having now without having bought sold and trafficked them in the past.

Loot Narsbaar

The thing with this episode is the A and B plots don’t jive together. The Bariel plot is so somber and the Nog plot is cringe comedy. They don’t mix… Also I’ve seen this episode like 30 times and at this point I’m desensitized to Bariel dying so celebrate I will.

Weapon26

The things you guys say, knowing what's coming. It cracks me up! In this case, all you said about Bariel knowing this was coming, it's awesome to see this!

Deep Red

You are so right about her being given so much because for all her scenes of emotional anguish or her outbursts of anger, my favorite thing about her is how infectious and sincere her smile is. She has those moments where it literally feels like she can't hold back her enthusiasm and it just spills over

BN13

I like that they had to work within the Star Trek framework though. Something isn't good just because of how dark it can get. If we got something like Battlestar Gallactica, I wouldn't have liked it at all. Sometimes what makes a show truly great is a combination of not only what they were allowed to do, but also what they weren't allowed to do. Take some of the cut scenes from Lord of the Rings for example. We would have got some scenes that completely ruined the film if it weren't for people like Christopher Lee calling them out on it and stopping them. Or even in DS9, there's a later documentary were the writers staff makes up a theoretical season 8 on the fly, and imo, you can really feel that that script draft needed someone like Michael Pillar to hold it back from some of the stuff that would have just been dumb. Battlestar Gallactica in my opinion is what happens when you let Ron Moore go completely loose without working him against other things. I feel like Star Trek's framework forced him to balance himself out, and that's why his Star Trek stuff is so good. I think the real magic comes when you have a ton of really creative, really talented people, but they all challenge each other to be better, force limits and frameworks when needed, but are still allowed to creativly flourish. Then you end up getting something that is more than the sum of it's parts. I think one example of this is actually the character of Garak. Without spoiling anything, if you read a book by Andrew Robinson, a Stitch in Time, that book is essentially Andrew Robinson's notes for playing the character. But I believe that the Garak character we actually see on screen ends up being vastly different than the character that Andrew Robinson actually played. Because the Garak character that we see on screen is more than just Andrew Robinson's performance; it's also a product of the different writers who wrote him, and decisions made by people like Pillar that toned it back a bit. I think this mixture of ideas ultimately creates a character that is far more real and far more interesting than the character that Andrew Robinson would have played in isolation.

Actuarial Lurker

I always viewed Kai Winn is the Mega Church scam artist of Star Trek- donate $20 for the payer hotline- yes, do the work and mean what you say- of course not...

Deep Red

Your point about media giving you an emotional release that real life can't always provide really resonated with me. I've felt that way in recent years and I almost felt bad that I seemed to get more emotional about fiction than real life. I thought there might be something wrong with me, but it's comforting to know that there are other people who feel that way.

Cranky Grandma

I remember not caring much about this episode but rewatching with you I appreciate it much more. It does what trek *can* do well- examine heavy moral issues without telling you what to think. It makes you think but doesn’t tell you the right answer. Kai Winn- what a great grey villian! In some ways she is like Dukat - has bravado but maybe really feels unsure. Dukat is more likeable and fun which I suppose is disturbing given he was a brutal murdering occupation overlord😳🙂. Both are great villains to watch.

BN13

Well to be fair, a lot of people who are corrupt in the church are also spiritual narcissists. These people are drawn to roles where vulnerable people are dependent on them, and they have control over others. These people actually believe that they are spiritually righteous. More righteous than everyone else in fact. But they don't actually understand what they claim to be about at all, and if anything, they are actually the incarnate of pure evil. They are completely deceived just as they deceive others. Judge Claude Frollo from Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame is another example. You find evil whenever you find someone that is purely self-serving at other's expense. Whether it's a spiritual narcissist or simply a scam artist. And what better thing for evil to use to it's advantage than the church itself.

Loot Narsbaar

I think of it this way: Voyager aired on Saturdays until we got a UPN affiliate who moved it to Wednesdays. DS9 aired Sundays at 5 except the one time in was in the TNG Saturday night time slot just for “Past Tense.” (Probably because it was a very special episode) What I am saying is I don’t care what anyone says the shows never aired on the same date and the writers always fuck up the stardates to the point I never pay attention to them

Dr. Paul Stubbs

Here was my "defector take": >I just watched this episode yesterday, and I can hardly remember anything about it. It's so bland. I do like the Jake and Nog stuff. And Bashir is great. And I cried at the end both times I watched the episode, Nana is amazing. But overall, the episode just doesn't move the needle for me much. I never hated Bareil, but also the will-they-won't-they kill him is just fine. I would go B+ or so.

Ashley Sigmon

I was sorry when Bariel died. I was not sorry that Bariel died. That is how I feel about this episode.

Ashley Sigmon

Also imo Gul Dukat is the best Star Trek antagonist of all time but a VERY close second is Kai Wynn and this is one of the first episodes that makes me feel that way.

reactive1

Voyager had seasons 6 & 7 on its own after DS9 ended.

Jonathan Llyr

I’ve been waiting for this episode to see if you would celebrate the death of Bareil or be moved by it. Very pleased how this reaction turned out!

Naglfarius

I think all the horrible and weird Scenes we got with Bareil until this Episode, were worth it. Because we have this one and only S Tier Episode with him, which only works because we knew him for so long, even if we all didn't like him. Amazing send off. (Jake and Nog Scenes are always some of the best, just like the Father/ Son Scenes from Sisko and Jake.)

International Man of Leisure

This episode hits me a little differently now. I've lost both parents recently and I connected with Kira & how it affected her. Pleading for Bashir to continue doing procedures & dispensing medication while also realizing that maybe she shouldn't be doing that. And standing over him waiting...I wish I had handled it as well as she. On another note, in regards to Babylon 5's show writer having written the show (and accounted for drop in fixes in case something critical happened to actors), J. Michael Stracyzki also knew the history 1 million years prior to the series and what happened 1 million years after the end of the series. I love that supposed throw away lines in B5 S1E1 have major relevance in S5. Things are set up on Day 1!

reactive1

Yeah, you would’ve never guessed he’s 10 or 11 years older than Cirroc Lofton.

reactive1

I was just thinking that.

reactive1

The DVD box set for Voyager & the Blu-Ray / DVD box set for Enterprise are both inexpensive to get.

reactive1

This was my first rewatch of this episode since it first aired in 1995. The only thing I remembered about it was Bareil dying. C+

BN13

As for the low IMBD score for this one, i think when you see those low scores for episodes going forward, for the most part, they aren't ranked low because they're bad. Like The Abandoned, this episode and that episode are actually very good, especially for this point in the series. They're only ranked low because compared to what's to come, even though they are very good on their own, those episodes ultimately become forgettable.

Trillhouse

What I learned from this reaction is that by the end of the show I'm going to have to watch Josh doodle giant testicles on a room-sized whiteboard, and I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Loot Narsbaar

I think Good Plot episodes will always do better than Good Character episodes on IMDb and that’s just because an internet score matters most to a 13 year old boy

Nolan

Well, "read" as in, saw it, read through it to yourself, and opted to not read it aloud for the camera. It's fine. It's was about events in one of the actor's life at the time, and a bunch of people commented about it in the following episode too.

BN13

Didn't he originally have a whole other plot in mind though? Season 1 was clearly setting up for a whole other plot. But I think I heard at some point, they switched gears on the whole direction they wanted to go, plus they had to work some things in due to actors, and they made the Season 1 episodes fit into the new plot instead. Yes the show was planned out from the beginning, but it also had to make a lot of adaptations along the way. Thankfully, JMS was aware that the show would need to change, live, and breathe when he wrote it, so the story was able to be flexible. And we got a lot of cool things that wouldn't have happened otherwise.

Numinous2019

Thank you for your reply and taking the time to make all those interesting points. To clarify....I'm a 57 year old Irishman, so I would have been watching both American and British SF TV shows from the mid-1970's on. I'm going to keep things vague enough so I don't make specific points about what is down the road for T.A. There is a very clear limit to how dark American SF TV could get due to the economic realities of American TV. British SF TV could go much further (either the BBC or the independent channels) and it wouldn't have alienated the potential audience to the same degree. I'm thinking of the 4th Quatermass serial for one example (transmitted in 1979) which is excessively bleak. I guess that I'm superimposing some of that British darkness onto what DS9 might have been if produced in England. I agree with you about the story outline for the 1st episode of DS9 season 8, which didn't feel right at all to me. I think that the tone of Moore's BSG started off well judged but ultimately went more than a wee bit off the rails (I may be understating that!). Behr himself didn't always make the best decisions towards the end of DS9. My point about grittiness in DS9 and Voyager is that the darkness is always ST darkness, which can never exceed a point where the essential optimism can't reign it back, or mitigate it.....if you think about DS9 you will notice how even THAT story provides some measure of lack of culpability. To boil my point down: British SF can break the show or the characters, while American TV can't really do that, because there's no ethical recovery position if it did.

River Acheron

The only British Sci Fi I have seen is what every American says...Doctor Who lol. I have seen all of the 9th, 10th and 11th Doctor (I plan on picking it up again one day)...could Doctor Who get really dark? I dunno if I should get into Doctor Who Spoiler detail or not. Also, if there's some really dark British Sci Fi, please let me know some series. :) I do see your point about American Sci Fi btw. But that's how it used to be. I think things have changed where American Sci Fi can be DISTURBINGLY dark now. No?

Numinous2019

There are 2 British mini-series I can think of (off the top of my head). 'Invasion Earth' and the Heuston Films' 'Quatermass' (1979 4 part TV version, not the 2 hour movie version). Neither is without its faults, but they are as downbeat as British TV gets. If you can find it, then I highly recommend the 3rd Quatermass serial (Quatermass And The Pit - 6 part BBC black and white). This is widely considered to be one of the finest scripts ever written for TV.

Scarpad’s Domain

I think that was th point its a heavy episode so they wanted some relief

Scarpad’s Domain

This episode is OK, I think its the acting that pushes it. No One Mentioned how the p,ot is similar to TNG's "SareK"

Loot Narsbaar

That was the intent. The writers (I think Ron Moore) said they dropped the ball, re: tone clash. Don’t get me wrong this is a good episode, but the B plot doesn’t help.

Sunny

You know, when Bashir starts theorizing, I got major Frankenstein vibes. I wouldn’t mind a horror edit of this episode.

sword bard

It took me years before I figured out why Kira would fall for someone like Bariel. Of course in real life we all know tons of people who go head over heels for the least suitable person on earth for them and it's obvious to everybody but them. But for Kira, it finally hit me that she was probably longing for a source of really boring calm predictable stability. Her whole life has been awful and someone like Bariel probably felt like a calm resting place. Would it have lasted long if he hadn't died, nah probably not. But I can at least see why she might have wanted someone like him.

Sunny

Well they did at least free the nipple

International Man of Leisure

Yes, the show had to adapt, starting at the end of S1 for obvious reasons. (No spoilers in case the guys one day watch the series.) JMS had a backup plan, but that also meant adjusting the original storyline to compensate. And with the threat of cancellation, more adaptations were done to conclude plotlines in S4 in case that happened. Still, the basics of the story remained. And because JMS knew the history beyond the original end of the show, he was able to advance a couple of storylines to make S5. But the cool thing is that he had failsafes built in throughout that actually got triggered, so there was no real wondering where the show was going at any given time. It's why B5 is THE best serialized sci-fi show, even above DS9. And that says something. (A note to the guys in case they are reading.)

D Gyre

I always liked Bariel. Not a lot, but I didn't dislike him especially the way it sounds like some do. But this was a great way to exit him and have it work for the characters and plot.

sword bard

Some people wouldn't call it science fiction but I think it counts - the 1960s British series The Prisoner is pretty damn dark. The fact that it's usually described as "Kafkaesque" is a good sign if you want weird and dark, also the fact that people kept writing outraged letters complaining about it throughout its run and after it ended.

Ryan Caulfield

I don't think I've ever actually seen this episode before (heard about it maybe?), but it definitely hits for me. Like you guys mentioned, I also appreciate when fiction (in any form) can give me an emotional release, especially when daily life can be kind of mundane or mind-numbing sometimes. Plus, it's really great that you guys are so genuine in your reactions and are able to be so immersed in the story. Not to be too personal, but I have been in a similar situation to Kira, and I could really feel for her and what she's going through; that end scene was heartbreaking. I didn't like the Jake and Nog storyline as much, but you need a little levity to break things up a bit, so I get it. Perhaps, it also provides another example of two different cultures reaching an understanding, but with much lower stakes than the peace negotiations. Great episode overall.

Sykonee

Though there isn't actually a scene transition like this in the episode, this is how I always remember it: Jake: "Friends?" Nog: "Friends." Bariel: "Eaaaagghh!!"

Millenial_Manc

I forgot how those early pre-autopsy medical scenes are some of the worst directed medical scenes in the franchise. Excruciating. Spock’s Brain was better. Thankfully they quickly pulled it back into some of the best ones and Siddig came into his own, finally looking like the infirmary was his domain.

Jon Miller

Surprised they didn't hate this episode for being woke with the 'get on with different cultures' message.

Target Audience

Sorry that you went through something similar. Were you ever aware Bariel died or did you think he was randomly forgotten?

Ryan Caulfield

Thank you. If memory serves, I had read a summary of the episode a while ago where it mentioned he died I think, but I didn't think it would be presented in such an emotional way. Especially with the fake out at the beginning.

Captkirc

I disagree about DS9 in the sense that what really makes the darker themes stick is the contrast to the idealized federation we got in TOS and TNG. Sisko’s monologue in the Maquis pt 2 drives this home with the line “it’s easy to be a saint in paradise”. We actually get to see that reality doesn’t always fit into the neat little box that was the Federation.

SetsunaYuki

The boys got their wish with Vedek Cardboard getting cut.

Todd

Bashir is my favorite DS9 character as well. I liked that Bashir and Kira are calling each other by their first names in this episode.

L J

You guys are saying Kai Winn was actually being altruistic in this episode and I have to disagree. She was manipulating the circumstances to work in her favor as always. These negotiation talks only emphasized that she has no idea what she's doing. She was literally frozen and unable to function without someone else (in this case, Bareil) to guide her. She also wanted to keep him around so that he could take the blame if things went south. She was motivated 100% by self-serving factors and turned her back on Bareil the moment she knew she no longer needed him. Nothing redeeming for her character in this episode.

John

I wasn't sure how you'd feel about this. I enjoyed this episode, but I also didn't hate Bareil to the degree you did. He was not one of my favorite people, but I didn't hate him. II'm glad you really enjoyed it.... Look back at Season one of the show, and look at the show now. Night and day.

Loot Narsbaar

IMDB: Action/Adventure: 9.0 Character stuff: 6.5 (zzzzzzzzz) Lotta trek people and young boys dgaf about character stuff

L J

Why don't I like this episode? I guess because it's just boring. I didn't feel the stakes in this one at all. So the Bajoran's are in negotiations with the Cardassians. Okay. Good for them, I guess. But the Cardassians are already gone, so while it would be nice to formalize the peace, it's also not really necessary. And you can't tell me Bareil is the only person who can navigate those talks. Certainly not at the expense of his life. It just seemed extreme that he was willing to disregard his well-being and spend his last few remaining days giving Kai Winn a few more pointers and tips. And the medical stuff was far fetched even for science-fiction. It felt like it dragged on and on and I just didn't care about the outcome at all. I didn't mind the character of Bareil but I thought it was one of the weirder character deaths in all of Star Trek. It just didn't resonate for me like it obviously did for you.

STEMBOB

An S, really?

Summer

So a true first world problem here, most years of the last 10-15 years I have watched Voyager, DS9 and TNG at least once a year on my own, not waiting days between episodes, I have never succeeded in airdate order so that is neat, but its torture to wait for the full uncut to watch the next episode, because with reactors I am watching with you. Done whining. It is neat to see what Voyager was airing with which Ds9.

HeatheЯ

Yeah, I'm a big fan of this ep.

HeatheЯ

I always get teary at the end of this one. Nana, and Louise and Siddig just do an amazing job. And Josh cried too!!! Not on my bingo card O.o. Great reaction and discussion.

Miranda

I'm glad you two liked this one! For me, this is a middling episode of DS9. I don't think anything about it is bad, per se. It's just the drama with Bareil dying is not quite as intense as it needs to be, until the end. And the treaty negotiations aren't treated seriously enough by the show to really get me to care about Winn's role in them. However, there are a couple very strong aspects of it. One of those being Siddig's performance as Bashir. This is a great episode for him. Ron Moore wrote him some great scenes to play. I also love the performance of Nana Visitor. And, similar to you both, I didn't much like Bareil, but Nana Visitor really sells Kira's deep feelings for him. That last scene between Bashir and Kira is so great, and the slow pull out on Kira talking to Bareil is terrific. This episode just isn't in the top tier of what DS9 can do. Even with the Jake and Nog scenes, DS9 can do much stronger scenes with those two. Honestly, this episode is probably in my bottom 3rd of this season. I'd probably rate it a B.

Miranda

Remember though, that fans are likely rating episodes relative to DS9 as a whole. So, my B is relative to every episode of DS9. You two are watching for the first time, so you don't have that context.

Miranda

Right, I'm old enough to have watched DS9 when it originally aired. I've never rated anything on IMDb in my life

Miranda

They cannot wear clothes, work, or leave the home. They are slaves NOW

Loot Narsbaar

Spot on take. Apologies for being that guy but if this were Voyager or ENT I would probably be much more inclined to go A or S.

Loot Narsbaar

Like sports being a release to congregate, hoot, holler, and be loud and joyous, a well tv/movie is a release to laugh, cry, and get all kinds of emotional you typically can’t get irl. That’s why humans meet art.

Aaron Wells

The Ferengi were designed to suck. It's intentional. Earth is a post-scarcity communist Utopia in Star Trek. So who did Roddenberry make the natural villains? Hardcore capitalists. Even made them as physically repulsive as possible, made them physically short in stature, made their movements off-putting, their speech, etc. Everything about them was designed from day one to be completely despicable. And then DS9 came along and decided they needed to be comic relief for some reason. I fucking hate comic relief. Turning them into cartoons is actually the most offensive thing about having to watch Ferengi on screen.

Ken R

They were comic relief from day one. They actually scamper as a form of movement on TNG

JoeMama47

I think that Winn believes that she has the best motives. Sometimes she has to convince herself, but she refuses to believe that she is in the wrong.

Summer

As someone who writes and can usually recognize jammed in scenes I never felt that scene with Quark was that odd, it is Quark after all

M Palmiere

this was a great reaction. but the next one is one of my personal top 5. can't wait.

L J

Agreed. She's got herself so convinced that she has all the right answers and she will be the one who saves Bajor. I think that is what makes her such a complicated character. But I think she also knows when she's pushing boundaries and when she needs to manipulate the situation in order to make her plans become a reality. She thinks she's doing the right thing, but at the same time it's also very self-serving.

Kate Courtney

Good job Alex! The station IS Cardasian!

Sam Langanke

"As all things should be!" said in perfect sync. Although Josh was about to drink. That is what best friends sound like.

James H

Wherever there’s a party, Quark will be there trying to make a quick slip of latinum. And the scene helps to show that Kai Winn is getting all the credit for the peace treaty.

James H

No one even named a soufflé after Vedek Bareil.

Paul

I don't remember tearing up on this episode, but watching it with you guys, wtf? Eyes red like I just watched Armageddon. Bashir is my favorite character too. He's had such a growth arc up to this point and you can feel how much he cares for his patients.

Paul

Haha yeah they're in perfect sync, a Thanos quote to prove a bond.

Sic Coyote

Without saying anything else, they had considered having The Chief, in Bareils's position in this episode and killing him off instead, thankfully they found a more disposable character.

Sic Coyote

that's what I get for commenting before the patron takes

Paul

100%. Her whole life was nothing but pure chaos. So, she latched onto one of the most stoic, emotionless person she could, someone as stable as a rock.

Mark Chrisco

I was a bit cold when I saw this in first broadcast but I found myself tearing up because time passes and I know how it feels to lose someone you love.

J-Ro

A really well done episode. Loved your guys' reaction on this one, too. In addition to the main story, so main good side character moments. This is where DS9 shines.

Summer

Fascinations reaction: “I don’t want to see Kira sad about anyone….Bariel I probably wouldn’t cate” life Signs: “poor Kira!” Also in Fascinations “I wouldn’t care if he died” Life Signs “what we wamted him gone not dead”life support wrong thing

MJBull

Now you won't have Vedek Bareil to kick around anymore!

MJBull

Winn may have tried to do a good thing, but she is still an awful, selfish, incompetent person.

Brazucacalifornia80

There will be no team DS9 or team VOY, there`s only team Trek (peak Trek)

steve harris

Not a big fan of this episode ,still we did goodbye to to one of of the most boring charactars, and as you said they did make you feel the loss Julian Bashir is my favourite character in ds9 ,like you it took me some time, but i think the journey and time was needed

Prof Moff

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 5 Jadzia 3 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 Jake 1 GUEST: Wynn 1 Numbnuts 1