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UNCUT - Heroes and Demons (VOY S1E12) | Star Trek Journey 358 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-03-19 18:18:54
Edited:
2026-03-23 13:54:00
Imported:
2026-09
Tags:
stj

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TalynOne

This episode is always a skip for me, I don't even understand why it exists, it has nothing to say. E-.

River Acheron

I'm ADORE Beowulf! I love old English epics, and this is right up my alley, even with the changes to the poem. (there was no Freya for example.) This is an S for me. But hey, thats how holodeck episodes are. We accept they are not "Star Trek"-esque, and the enjoyment depends on if you like the genre, and I LOVE fantasy, monsters and swords etc. Also, GREAT character growth for The Doc!

Sam Langanke

At least Josh read Beowulf in Highschool.

Phenomenon (Doo - Dooo - Dah - Doo - Doo)

So...... Beowulf? Wake me when it's over And the name the Doctor chose was Dr. Albert Schweitzer, a very famous German doctor, scientist, author, philosopher, etc., etc. who was all the rage during Einstein's era. There was hardly any discipline that he didn't have a higher degree in Smart guy. Fun at parties. Loved cats.

Matchstick Jose

Alex just looks bummed at the realization that not every single episode of the entire series will be a banger. We've all been there.

Derek Locke

Dr. Albert Scweitzer. Look him up!

Summer

Not as bad as previous viewings, its a Trek episode maybe c+ or b probably better than the original beuwolf story. I think 2nd, third, fourth, 87th watches are best because you know what you are in for and can be into it by then

TC Green

This episode feels like a play that gets interrupted by an episode of Star Trek. Or maybe the other way around. Either way it doesn’t work. Which is a shame because the idea of the Doctor going on his first “away mission” on the holodeck is a good one.

Darren

It won’t win awards but it’s fun at least. Robert Picardo is always worth a watch. C for me

William Roberts

after watching the conversation, the thumbnail makes a lot of sense lol

Derek Locke

Like it or not, Trek IS Sci-fi. The techno babble conversations trying to find the solution to the sci-fi issue of the week is part of the recipe of the franchise. If you don't like that, these types of episodes won't resonate with you. Personally, seeing the Doc out of his element makes up for the shortcomings of the episode. Solid B- for me. And Freya's death hits because of her connection to the Doc. He's invested in her so her death impacts him and since it impacts him, it impacts me.

Ryan

Janeway turned the hairstyle dial to Severe Mode this week. I was terrified she was going to take my recess privileges away. Otherwise, hell yeah, the Beowulf episode! It's really dumb, but for me it's dumb fun, buoyed by the always excellent Robert Picardo. Mid-'90s Hollywood had this thing for medieval fantasy, and I'm glad Voyager jumped on that weird trend. Objective C-/D+, but I give 1000 points to Gryffindor for nostalgia reasons, so low B.

Collin Freeman

I think by this point in the Berman-era Star Trek, Holodeck episodes I consider to be laziness on the part of the writing staff. They seem especially out of place for me in Voyager due to the fact the amount of energy it must take to run the programs while they are trying to conserve energy in order to get home. I'm not buying their lame excuse of "it doesn't use a lot necessary energy." I cry "BS"! That being said, I do like having the doctor play a key role in this story. C-.

Collin Freeman

My philosophy on whether to consider saying something that might be considered a spoiler is: When in doubt, don't.

Steven Linden

I think the fact that I love "Beowulf" so much is part of what makes this episode weak for me. Picardo's performance is fine, but otherwise it's dull dime-store cosplay.

Summer

Holmes sometimes struggles for the answer, but most stories are short so might feel like they went fast, but it is rare that you know the answer before Holmes. Actually you guys might like Sherlock Holmes except for the whole Victorian/Edwardian era thing

Narnman

Well for one i certainly enjoyed the interrogation of Alex after the episode :D

Zenlike Creature

I genuinely didn't remember this one from the title alone but once they met Freya it all came back. It's ok, a relatively fun run around the holodeck which helps add more depth and character to the doctor. Beyond that it's rather forgettable. 6.7 on IMDB

Elizabeth N

This is a kinda 'meh' episode for me. I like all the Doctor stuff and the Beowulf setting. It was this episode which introduced me to that story. Perhaps there was a bit of a missed opportunity with Chakotay, Tuvok and Kim. It might have been cool to see them all teaming up to fight Grendel, especially after Tuvok and Chakotay's conversation about monsters and demons. Freya's death doesn't hit all that hard, but then you remember that this is the first other hologram The Doctor has met. Of course her death would have more impact on him. He wouldn't consider just rewinding the program or resetting because that isn't how he wants to view his own existence, as something easily rewritten.

Summer

Ha! Yes Sherlock Holmes

River Acheron

I never heard of him either. Had no idea it was a reference to some guy until today. lol

Patric Flück

If you’re curious, the man from whom the Doctor adopted his name for this episode was Albert Schweitzer. A theologian, musician, and doctor who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1952 for his work in Africa.

River Acheron

I dont know that shows SHOULD have recipes or formulas. A lot of today's TV shuns that notion and the result is you NEVER know what you're gonna get in a given episode and I sort of like that! I get that some people find comfort in formulaic and others get turned off by it. Don't get me wrong, this episode is an easy S for me, but I also think this is an instance wherr the Star Trek stuff gets in the way of my Beowulf/Doctor story lol. But what I love about, say, X-Files, and why I think it was ahead of its time, is there wasn't really a FOMULA. Yes "Monster of the Week" etc, but thats as far as it went. Sometimes Mulder and Skully solved the cases, sometimes they didn't. Sometimes it wasn't paranormal, sometimes it was. You never really knew what you were getting. One further thing, "we may be dealing with a LIFEFORM!" was that supposed to be shocking back then? I swear, I had the same reaction as Alex when I first binged it, and it was "duh. Whats the big deal?" It doesn't lower my grade of the episode because I love the Beowulf stuff so much, but at the same time, it earned an eyeroll. lol

Sam Langanke

When Alex hates something he hates EVERYTHING:

River Acheron

He checks out. I have friends that do the same thing. It's common for some people. For me to reach THAT threshold, something has to be REALLY bad. I mean, boring to the point of irredeemable. (the movie Innkeepers for example.) Or something extremely offensive on every level.

River Acheron

I don't think Freya's death is supposed to hit us at all. It's all about The Doctors growth.

Purple

Alex and Josh at Darmok.

River Acheron

Medieval fantasy is weird? How dare you, sir! :P I would argue though that medieval fantasy is huge TODAY. Massive in fact.

Ryan

[Pauses reading an article about The Wheel of Time to respond to your comment] Oooooh, yeah, I phrased that pretty badly. I meant that mid-'90s Hollywood tended to do medieval fantasy weirdly. Like, I love Xena, but what a strange show when you think about it.

Jonathan

I remember going into this episode so hyped from the last episode and then we get this holodeck crap. I’ve thought of this episode every time you asked if this season was going to all be great episodes.

Vexx

Daww. Sad Alex is so angry about it. Especially with exploring the doctor more. Kes and the doctor had a great scene too. Still watching the after discussion and wow Alex is SUPER shut down. Was he that offended? :D :D

TalynOne

I agree with this take, I've always disliked Beowulf so it's easy to see why I'm not a fan of this episode.

tyranusfan

Usually if I'm THAT bored I fall asleep.

tyranusfan

I'm sure--certain in fact--that Gene intended for holodecks to be used for sex.

tyranusfan

I feel like we've seen Star Trek do this "energy that we didn't know was alive" bit before. Maybe a few times on the Enterprise.

tyranusfan

Sorry, Josh, Qpid IS better than this.

Etman

im watching voyager for the first time with you guys and i actually thought this one was pretty entertaining. i liked seeing the doctor being able to enjoy something. my main complaint is that when i read beowulf in highschool i always wondered what the vikings from 700 AD thought grendel looked like. i was excited to see star treks take on it but then it was just an energy alien or whatever. in that sense i understand where alex is coming from. you can see what it could have been but they went a different way and dropped the ball a little bit. still gets a B for me but a few tweaks to the story and it wouldve been an A.

Greg Arledge

First time we get to see that Paris is not a himbo. There is actually characterization inside and outside of the "sci-fi" scenes. Doc stuff good, Doc/Kes stuff good. All 3 actors in the holodeck scenario did fine to great. The king was really good IMO and I don't think Unferth was that bad, Freya was good. These are holodeck characters, they are kind of supposed to be a bit hammy in nature. I think the actors did a good job at that.

Collin Freeman

Given where Gene's head was at in the last 20 years of his life, it would not surprise me.

Collin Freeman

Good call. But opinions are reversed this time around.

River Acheron

As I said elsewhere, that's the nature of holodeck episodes. For example, I cannot stand westerns so Fistfull of Datas is boring to me. I feel like holodeck episodes are made for the fans of the genre it's portraying so they will always be polarizing.

Philbot

Dr. Vs Data.. the Doctor is all software whereas doctor Soong building Data is a technical feat. They whipped Moriarty up in seconds they are basically just a program. I wondered about using transporter/ Replicator technology to bring The Doctor or Moriarty to life you would need some biological template or pattern to make them into. Just look at lonely Among us when they get Picard back at the end.. metaphysics be damned?

River Acheron

Yeah, as much as I love The Doc, he is not sentient. No emotions truly and no awareness...he is SIMULATED to make it look like he does. There's no neural net (real OR artificial)...he is literally just a program being run. I know people want him to be alive but he is not.

Jacob Laughbon

I won't spoiler, but as a watcher of Voyager, when it first premiered, I can say I didn't like this episode at first. However, after you watch the series in entirety, you'll reflect back to why this episode is fundamentally important in the story arc of The Doctor. I know a lot of people try to compare Data to The Doctor and in the earlier episodes, there isn't much comparison, as the Doctor is very limited in his complexity. Trust me, you will change your mind about that.

Mister Huge

This conversation gives me vibes of Dean Ambrose on the Stone Cold Podcast

THE Fans

Note for Alex... Kes is 3 years old, but wise for her age. The Doctor is a few MONTHS old, and can only rely on his medical programing. Their interactions are very important... Definitely more important than I initially believed 30 years ago. Both are Alice in Wonderland in our Star Trek. Also, a hologram will definitely grieve the death of another hologram.

Summer

The Kes and Doctor scene was one of the best scenes

Shawn Indigo

I enjoyed this episode. The dr was so fun to watch in this one.

Summer

I feel that way in sci fi about robot take over. In fantasy I feel that way about vampire stories. Really people you couldn’t be more creative, reach for higher fruit. Since its Trek I am not opposed to the routine holodeck episode. Some are better. On Voyager there being a holodeck is important for the characters so we don’t stop at a planet constantly.

Matthew McKinnon-Gray

Garret Wang has mentioned that this is one of his favourite episodes of season one because of his outfit. As an Asian actor he never gets cast in medieval projects, so it was a thrill for him to wear chain mail.

Summer

I generally dislike westerns and that kept me from embracing Fistful of Datas too long, when I started looking at it all as character pieces I decided it was a great episode

WastedPo

I was surprised Alex didn't like this. I had such confidence this would continue the streak of episodes you both really enjoyed. No, the alien species weren't that compelling (nor did the viewer care that much about the fate of the holodeck characters), but the point of the episode wasn't the aliens or the vikings. It was having a reason for the Doctor to experience all these new things. Like that moment when all the vikings were cheering his name, that moment totally works for me, because of the look on the Doctor's face. You guys have said in the past that you find it engaging when plot devices are used to examine or grow characters, and here was an example of that. (Though I can understand how it could be seen as a missed opportunity if you were hoping for the entire cast to get dressed up and join the adventure.)

WastedPo

He seems so pissed off that I genuinely worry it's soured him to the entire series, just from this one episode.

Worf and Riker Ride Again

Yeah I’m with Alex on this one, it’s a real half-arsed attempt at a holodeck episode. The guest characters are all hammy and the dialogue is terrible. Everything is flat. There’s also way too much time spent on the Beowulf story, rather than what our crew are doing. I’d love a decent medieval holodeck episode, but this isn’t it.

beanKounter

Alex’s critique is not particularly earned since he had one set of expectations and the episode didn’t placate . Good one you Josh for sticking with it and looking for the positives. While not a mind blowing episode, there’s some wonderful moments for real character development. I think part of the issue is the binge-fatigue. We had weeks and years and decades to let ideas breathe; you guys have consumed 30 years of content in a-tenth of the time. Give the show a little credit for how well it held up. I remember how much this show was (unjustifiably) hated when it first aired (just like DS9…just like TNG…just like…)

Doctor Pulaski

This is the episode where the show starts... (Not in a good way)

tyranusfan

I didn't like Beowulf when we read it in high school, and I didn't like it here. :)

Prof Moff

Voyager sex scoreboard DAMN IT, no scores. The Doctor should have gotten one and it would have been the best notch so far. SCOREBOARD Paris – 2 Neelix - 1 Kes – 1 Chakotay 1 DETAILS We wish DR+1 but no

Prof Moff

ps I do like this one like J. I agree with the goods and bads he said. But I get A's feelings as well.

Terminaldogma01

Let me get back to you. Need to make a pie chart

Hat

Gents, I'm terrified that Season 2 will make you jaded. There are only like 8 good episodes in that season. Many podcasts I've listened to, become so jaded after S2, that even a great episode, they just crap all over due to 6-7 crap episodes in a row.

Incredible Jon

I've always enjoyed the tiniest fraction of time janeway leaves between calling Kim and saying 'that's odd' like he needs to answer IMMEDIATELY and can't be like having a dump or something.

Trekkie74205

It is always fun to watch Alex check out, not pay attention, not know what is going on, and wear an expression like he is sucking lemons. It is possible to not care for an episode without it ruining your day. lol

Thicketdweller🦊

I have to say I kinda have to be with Alex on my first watch as I was never a fan of the Baywolf story however, in other viewings, I’ve seen a lot of character development around the Doctor that I really appreciate so episode gets a good solid sea for me

Target Audience

I’ve always wondered about this too like what if someone is in the shower?

reactive1

I had to read Beowulf in high school. This felt exactly like that. 😴

Loot Narsbaar

i think they all wear space diapers

Loot Narsbaar

At least Darmok is an inner circle great episode

Tim Nikiforovs

Unferth is a cock block. Doc should have fed him to Grendel

Loot Narsbaar

Surprisingly I'm agreeing with Alex on this except less angrily

Loot Narsbaar

Given this premise is true... I like a good trainwreck

Loot Narsbaar

That's always a tough area, I suppose it depends on whether or not the SOLE reason you didn't like something is because you wanted it to be something else.

Loot Narsbaar

I think Josh deserves credit for coolly handling hosting duties regarding that. Sometimes if I don't like, say an episode of Trek, my other Trek buddies will talk over me, get upset, get angry etc and I wish they'd act more like Josh. I have come to find, compared to the average Trek fan, my like of Star Trek is narrow so there are constant disagreements.

Loot Narsbaar

I'm partial to the beehive she wears in the Voyager Christmas Special

Loot Narsbaar

One thing I've found re-watching holodeck episodes is how in a way some have aged like milk due to modern first person videogaming. I think you could re-write this episode into a non-dud if we truly treated the problem as how do we beat Beuwolf: The Game and embrace the corniness / silliness to come

Tim Nikiforovs

I'd give S2 13 or 14 good eps, but only a few are great ones. Worst VOY season

Tim Nikiforovs

Josh, I totally get what you're saying about aliens abducting humans not realizing we're sentient. Most days even I can't tell that humans are sentient. I'd give this one a solid B. Not amazing, but I think for a S1 ep it's perfectly fine, and the Doctor is a great character so I appreciate the focus on him. Would it have been nice to see more of Tuvok and Chakotay in that setting, or a few seconds of Harry at the end? Sure, but it's early days. As for the campiness of the program and holocharacters, I think that's part of the charm personally. Since I see some people discussing whether the Doctor is alive/sentient, I'll weigh in. While it's true he's a projection run by programming, and his apparent emotions are likely more a matter of algorithms that simulate emotion, I ask if that's really any different than Data's emotion chip. And sure we could say Data is alive and sentient because of his positronic neural net, so he's more than the sum of his programming. The hardware aspect elevates him above that. I would suggest however that the Doctor has far more hardware at his disposal. His neural net is the Voyager computer, which is several decks tall. Moreover, Voyager uses living, bio neural circuitry. How many of the Doctor's processes are being run through essentially an organic computer, and what effect does that have on sentience and emotion? Worth considering. Solid episode. At least Harry didn't adapt a version of the story that involved him running around the great hall and fighting Grendel naked.

Tim Nikiforovs

As for what stories I'd recreate on the holodeck, why limit it to books and movies. I'd be making all sorts of Halo and Mass Effect holoprograms. Also while it's not really shown being executed very well in trek, there's gotta be a way to simulate superpowers. Want super strength, just make things lighter and less durable. If your character is supposed to have reflexes 5x faster than normal, slow down the program to 20% speed. You'd probably want some sort of actual neural interface similar to what Geordi used for the probe to control the kinds of superpowers you'd have if you were playing an X Men character of something, but hand gestures or some other control device could work in a pinch.

Some Guy

You know Kim would jump up to attention and answer the captain mid-dump.

jon bolton

Because i'm not a fan of middle earth type things this episode isn't for me. I can only give it E.

David Brown

She's late 1, not quite 2 yet. Almost.

C_Drew

Nope. He writes a script in his head and marks the episode against it

V G (Zay)

I'm obsessed with how warm and tender like mash potato Janeway always looks when she's telling a member of the crew some version of "You did good, I'm proud of you."

Jonathan Llyr

I love the character of the Doctor, but man I really disliked this episode when it first aired - and I have never watched it since. It’ll be interesting to see what I think of it today after watching this reaction.

David H

D+ Didn't care for this one. It was boring. I kinda forgot about this episode and I will forget about this episode in a few weeks

MartyMc

Don't get the rage on this one, a comic relief episode with nice growth scenario for the Doctor. Love the viking gal too.

Naglfarius

I take "Through the looking Glass" over "Heroes and Demons" any Day. The only good Scenes were with the Doctor, and even these Scenes were 50/50 at best. And yeah even Qpid was better than this...

Ken R

I just wish the story has been more interesting. They repeated extended plot points and scenes and it became dull.

Cranky Grandma

I loved this one. The doctor. Beowulf. All I need.

Forbidden Donut

Unferth has a certain Internet troll / commentor / hater energy.

penoyer79

Miri is a good episode. get over it! lol you just dont like it cause you hate kids lol

Ken R

Given the history of tech and what made dvds, cd roms, and vhs a success in their times, what else would a holodeck be created for? CD Roms less so I guess. I can remember being at the AVN show almost 40 years ago and even back then they had a booth showcasing 3D porn.

GAY Kleven-Lundstrom

Not every episode is going to be a "Banger" These were the times when they were doing 26 episodes a season. They'll be some clunkers in there but don't let it ruin the series. I watched Voyager over most shows being shown today especially Dystopian TV shows/Movies. PS: there are 4 filmed episodes of Voyager S1 that was held over for S2.

Skye Maidstone

I hate it. E. It deserves no more words. Damn.

SWOLEXX

I cant wait for season 4.. that is loaded with bangers... I always remembered the first 3 seasons being hit or miss, but now on rewatch... Im loving these. Its only gonna get better.

Drake

whatever you changed until this episode every ad break was huge desync but this was PERFECT with paramount here

Edweirdo

Miri is the worst episode of any Star Trek. Bonk bonk on the head to you.

Oberhauser-Blofeld

I loved the discourse between Josh and Alex more than the episode with such opposite views/takes on it. It reminds me of old school Siskel and Ebert back forth for those old enough to remember that movie review show.

Paul

It's extremely rare for Josh and Alex to disagree (let's say by several grade's worth of enjoyment or dislike) on an episode. But it makes for a great back and forth discussion. Not that I want you guys to force a disagreement, just unique when it happens. For me, eh. Standard but still fun contract filler that had potential to be much more. I think Alex can get caught up in that potential factor and, if it's not living up to what it could be, it drags down tremendously for him.

penoyer79

dagger of the mind, mudds women, alternative factor, conscience of the king, catspaw, omega glory, assingment earth, spocks brain, and the children shall lead, way to eden, lights of zetar, empath, and requiem for methusala are all categorically worse TOS episodes than Miri. and that's just off the top of my head.

Ryan Caulfield

Actually surprised at the level of dislike for this episode. Yeah, I agree the technobabble/exposition scenes were not great, but everything with the Doctor was really good, imo. I especially liked the scene with Kes and the Doctor reflecting on him never having seen the sky or a forest before, and his interactions with Freya were also a highlight for me. There was some nice shot composition as well, like the scene shot from underneath Tuvok's arm, that divided Janeway and Chakotay, the scene in sickbay with Tom, B'Elanna, Janeway and the Doctor where they are all next to each other at different heights, and the close-up of the Doctor's face behind the flames after he is upset about Freya's death. Other small moments I liked were Chakotay and Tuvok talking about demons in literature and Tom being so concerned about Harry being missing. B for me.

Jonathan Llyr

Yeah so… the reaction didn’t change my mind on this episode. Terrible. My first “E” for VoyagEr.

tyranusfan

I don't really want to think about having sex with a CD-Rom

Paul

Yep, Alex gets caught up in what the episode could have been, if it doesn't live up to it, it's hard for him to objectively analyze the episode as it actually is.

Paul

Yeah. I have shows or movies I find boring but nothing has ever made me feel outright angry.

Doug

Feels like a reverse Darmok situation, with Alex liking it and Josh hating it

Paul

Personally I prefer a show with a general format, I like consistency. Not that they should never try wild ideas ever, but most of it being grounded in its core identity, just my cup of tea.

David Webb

I'm with Alex on this one. This is probably be my least favorite episode of S1. Got some development for the Doctor, that's about it.

Brandon Blume

On the subject of Freya's death scene and it hitting the Doctor so hard, it's also worth remembering that the Doctor is a program generated with photonic energy as a hologram and so is Freya. So to him, she is as real as HE is. Yes, her program can be reset and she'll be fine. But it will also erase everything that transpired between her and the Doctor. And by the same token, the DOCTOR himself can be reset and rewound but then he would completely lose all of the essence of who HE is. And since he is being portrayed in this series as basically a sentient character, that would more or less be murder. Even if we or the crew wouldn't agree with that, the Doctor would (and Kes too probably). To him, resetting your program is erasing you from existence. Even if you could just rewind 20 seconds, I can see the Doctor seeing that as a terrifying concept and having an existential crisis over it. So I wouldn't put it past him to just not even think in those terms in that moment because she's so real to him as it is.

Brandon Blume

I was watching from DVD and it was fine for me? As far as I could tell anyway.

KingPin124

Some episode on paramount have very long black screen at commercials and some don’t. This one didn’t, that’s why it was perfect

KingPin124

Ya, it’s not a bad idea, it just drags. Big pacing issue. That being said, I can still watch it and not act as depressed as others here. 😂

KingPin124

The discussion was actually painful to watch. This day Josh found out what it must be like to be an audience member when the guys don’t even give an episode a chance and check out very early.

Spartan-463

I remember the episode title and premise from a couple decades ago, just didn't remember why........ Well I fell sleep..... still figuring out why

David Kirk

C- for me. The only good thing was the Doctor being able to get out of sickbay and experience new things.

Todd

Brad Dourif? This episode really just continues the development of the Doctor. I smiled how the Beowulf story plays like cheesy gaming quests. This is a weird episode in how many scenes each of the cast have. No Neelix again. I really liked the shots from inside Tuvok's station, showing the back display, but also the shot of Janeway from inside the science station looking out towards the rest of the bridge.

Avaria

100% on board for that win for him. My biggest hang up with this episode has always been Beowulf not really gelling with Harry Kim. But what do I know, I've never seen his bookshelf.

Avaria

"The Cloud," a couple episodes ago.

Lozman73

I enjoy this one ALOT more in hindsight..... ie basically the starting point of the Doctor's 'Growth' thru the show, from that standpoint, very enjoyable - knowing where he gets to down the line

L J

One takeaway from this episode is the contrast between your average hologram and The Doctor. Listening to your reaction and reading some of the negative comments, it strikes me that the negative things about this holodeck program and the characters may have been done intentionally to highlight this. You guys (and most fans) were very quick to buy into The Doctor and to associate him with feelings and a personality and to see him as a real person. But here you're seeing other holograms as just holograms, programmed to be a certain way. If they die you can just reset the program and see them again. You never agreed with the idea of just reprogramming The Doctor. But isn't he the same thing? So what is it that sets The Doctor apart from these other run of the mill holograms?

Zerocooleo

It is lucky it was dorky Harry Kim playing a holonovel based on Beowulf, because it if had been Tom Paris our crew may have had to bang and smash their way through a platoon of Orion slave girls.

L J

Yes exactly. Sure, you can just reset the program and Freya will be back. But she won't be the same Freya. It's like O'Brien in the recent DS9 episode being a different version of O'Brien with slightly different memories. The Freya who died knew and recognized The Doctor. She was happy to see him. They had a bond. Reset the program and the Freya who will be there will have no memory of The Doctor. So in essence the Freya The Doctor knew and cared about was dead. No bringing her back. The connection between The Doctor and Freya worked better for me than, say, Dax and the guy in Meridian, or even the death of Bareill and Kira's reaction there.

Greg Quinn

@51:34 the whole reason that the three crew men didn't get to do anything cool was to really lean into the doctor as the unlikely hero. If you had them all do stuff it would have taken away the impact of the doctor stepping up and getting to be a real crew member who saves the day. And to me that part very much worked.

Greg Quinn

But aren't the guest characters supposed to be hammy given that they are playing holograms with very specific outlines?

Greg Quinn

It was almost like they told him to care about homeless people or something. 😬😉

Greg Quinn

Doctor is a real crew member who can branch out past sick bay. That's basically what it says to me.

Greg Quinn

My take after my first time seeing this. I liked what it did. Making the doctor a hero. All in all I liked it...didn't love it but liked it a good bit.

Sam Langanke

Robert Picardo is very much alive. But your nerdiness doesn't seem SIMULATED.

Brandon Blume

Actually I can't stand the DS9 mirror universe episodes. It just feels like they took something serious and hard hitting from TOS and made it into a joke. And I think the whole concept and point of the mirror universe is lost seeing as the Terran Empire no longer exists. It was far more interesting seeing evil humanity than enslaved humanity. But I really dig what they were going after here in Heroes and Demons. I'd rather eject DS9's mirror episodes from canon than this.

Captain Super Voyage

A C for me it was fine, because got the doctor out of sick bay. The whole section with Tuvok and Chakotay could have been skipped over since it didn't really move anything along. We could have just had B'Elanna Torres get find a way to get readings on the holodeck then moved quicker into sending the doctor into the holodeck since this was his story giving us more time getting to experience life outside of the sickbay and interact Freya to build up something a bit more before her death so it felt more impactful to those outside of the doctor. (We do have to put ourselves in the doctor's feelings and thoughts though because she is as real as he is just not as defined and deep of a programed character. Imagine your first romantic encounter then seeing the object of your new found affection killed in front of your eyes even if you're not exactly sure how to process it there would be emotional scarring no matter how short of a period you knew that person. Giving us more time to see them together would have made it more impactful to the viewers.) The guy who killed Freya's acting wasn't good and what they gave him in the writing was bad. If there was even a slim reason why he had to believe the doctor was so bad it might have made sense for him to be so against the doctor helping them. Instead he was made to be very shallow either for time or just as one of those characters that has no reason just does.

Loot Narsbaar

I think they have video phones in the bathroom

Retro Tom

If I had access to a Star Trek holodeck, I'd probably upload classic wrestling events. It would have to extrapolate some things that aren't seen by pictures & cameras, but imagine being able to recreate something like WrestleMania 1 at MSG & get a front row seat.

rear adm. crackbiscuit

The camera loves Marjorie Monaghan, but I find her acting wooden. That actually works here somehow. I like the ep, shame we didn't get more of Harry looking good in warrior garb! For an interesting take on Beowulf, I recommend the short novel "Grendel" by John Gardner. Surprisingly moving, don't wanna spoil how. Nice appetizer for his meatier and completely unrelated "The Sunlight Dialogues".

Worf and Riker Ride Again

I suppose it’s not even the acting that’s the issue, but the dialogue and story of the characters that’s very uninteresting to me. I watched this the other day and can barely remember anything about what they did / said etc. I haven’t watched the TNG Moriarty episodes for a long time but I can remember the lines, the plots and the story.

BN13

I get both the love and the hate for this one. Is this the best episode of Star Trek ever? Absolutely not. I almost forget I'm even watching Star Trek with this one. But I still personally enjoy it a lot. Mainly because I love stuff like Beowolf and Lord of the Rings. So I don't mind watching an episode of "Star Trek plays Skyrim," and totally getting caught up in the medieval fantasy side of it. But also, this episode just feels very comforting and cozy to me. And most importantly of all, it has heart. I'll take heart over "fun" any day. As far as fun goes though, I do like the Doctor's Hippocratic Oath joke at the end.

International Man of Leisure

Not good to say. Best to let the guys find out for themselves. (Plus, it's more entertaining to the viewers.)

BN13

I just realized after reading this that I care more about the Doctor and Freya than those other relationships too.

Greg Quinn

Fair take. I kinda see it as....Kim just has a corny holodeck program that he likes to be very specific, inflexible and corny, so for whatever reason I guess that part didn't bother me even though I absolutely agree the dialogue is corny and I can definitely understand someone not liking that.

L J

Of all the episodes I thought might've been the first "disappointment" of Voyager, I wasn't expecting it would be this one. Of course, since only one of the two disliked it, I don't know if it can be considered a true "disappointment" episode...

L J

I think this is a classic case where Alex's extreme dislike of certain elements of the episode are tainting his perception of the whole episode. I get where some aspects just might not be your thing. Personally, I don't think the guest actors were bad. I think that was how they wanted those characters to be portrayed as an artistic representation of the time period/the original novel. And if you don't like the setting or the concept or the way it's presented, I get it. But this is a good Doctor episode. A good character episode. Alex seems to want to just dismiss all that just because he personally didn't care for the plot of the holodeck program. I was glad Josh called him out on the inconsistencies with his complaints here. There are some seriously good moments in this episode, even if some things really bugged you. Question: What other holodeck episodes do you feel are better than this one? You mentioned The Big Goodbye, so I get that. I would place Ship in a Bottle over this one. But which other holodeck episodes do you feel work better than this one?

Avaria

I think maybe the most geeky thing in this episode is "Grendel" taking the Doctor's arm. In the original story, Beowulf marks his victory over Grendel by hanging his arm over the door to the Hall as a trophy. I've always thought it was a nice touch. If you like Tolkien at all, I recommend trying the book, Tolkien took a lot of inspiration for the Hobbit from Beowulf, particularly the last third. And, personally, I think, "The only reason you won't die, is that I've sworn an oath to do no harm," delivered deadpan by a medical professional as the Doctor did is quite badass (I saw you scrunch your face at it, Alex). Right up there with "My name is Quark, son of Keldar. I am here to answer the challenge of D'Gor, son of... whatever," spoken sincerely by a Ferengi, to the High Chancellor, on the floor of the Klingon Council Chamber. Even if the modern version of the Hippocratic Oath doesn't technically contain the language "do no harm".

Cranky Grandma

Yes, the holographic characters were intentionally wooden. It wasn’t bad acting. They are “hollow”. The doctor has become something more.

Cranky Grandma

Exactly. They are characters from a bad video game.

Cranky Grandma

And pretty much everyone knew his name and was taught about him in school until maybe the 90s. Certainly adults at the time this aired got the joke

penoyer79

def one of the weaker episodes of the season. but i still liked it better than Ex Post Facto. and probably better than Parallax which is basically just 45 minutes of non stop techno-babble gibberish

Trillhouse

I'm calling it now. After getting a clearer sense of what Alex and Josh both like and dislike, they're going to come out of all of this with Josh liking Voyager more and Alex liking DS9 more. The funny thing is, at this point in Season 3, my guess is that Alex would probably say that's crazy ...

Brandon Blume

Parallax is one of my favourite episodes! I love the sci-fi stuff! Bring on the anomalies! It's so cool! lol

penoyer79

i like sci fi stuff too. what i dont like is a 5 minute conversation of back and forth "we need to reroute the auxillery relay core to fix the gravametric pressure of the phase induced partical anomilies before they cause a temperal destortion paradox" shoot me in the face.

ShazD

The "some kind of"s are really in full swing

ShazD

But the science is parallax is just absurd....like even to a non science person its just nonsensical.

ShazD

Season 2/3 are a stepdown in my opinion so not sure what you mean?

ShazD

I had lost the will to live half way through Season 3 of Voyager, thank fuck it picked up towards the end of that season.

Evan Guthrie

Alex was feeling sour that day! Not a huge fan of this episode but his general reaction seemed to be seeping into his analysis of specific parts.

Scarpad’s Domain

Most of Voyagers holodeck edisodes are cringe. The best part of episode was the doctor

Scarpad’s Domain

Right I think most trek episodes have something good in it even the bad ones

Scarpad’s Domain

I mean even to the point of a credit can sour him and make him chk out

Scarpad’s Domain

Or the Hippocratic oath for that matter, what do they teach in schools these days

Betty Smith

Josh is in his feelings because Alex didn't feel the same way he felt about the episode. People are forgetting one crucial thing...art is subjective! Regardless if this episode focuses on The Doctor or not, he's entitled to not like the episode. Don't continue questioning him and trying to force him into seeing things your way! Move the hell on Josh! The Doctor is personally one of my favorite characters in this show and I absolutely hated this episode. I hated the story and I hated the characters the actors played in this episode...I just hated this episode! I concur with Alex, it was dull and lacked any emotive substance the last 11 episodes had. 100 people can go to a museum and view a stark white canvas with a small painted black circle in the middle (I'm sure you know what I'm about to say) every single person who gazed at that painting will see something different. It will mean something different to each of them, 100 different viewpoints. I hope I don't this type of behavior again, Josh let him have his opinion and vice versa Alex.

Mel Primus

Alex dislikes many episodes I like.

Star Trek Girl

I'm completely with Josh on this one Q-pid is not as good as this episode IMO.