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UNCUT - Improbable Cause (DS9 S3E20) | Star Trek Journey 359 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-03-20 12:00:22
Edited:
2026-03-26 13:32:27
Imported:
2026-09
Tags:
stj

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Cory Paton

Its time for a favourite

Darren

Odo and Garak two of my fave DS9 characters together makes this one I always enjoy

Matchstick Jose

Josh: "No, I will not be divulging personal communications shared between your two favorite illiterate morons and our queen to the biased media. Next question!"

Clyde Frog

Lets gooooooo! Top tier ep.

Better Watch Trek

I love this episode, but I would not put it in my personal top 10 of DS9. However: I think I get what the patreon comments try to say, because a while ago I was thinking how strange it is, that I have seen some DS9 episodes only two times and some I rewatch again and again... but the strange part is: this episode here is the line to cross. Everything before this episode I nearly never rewatch, while every episode I rewatched at least a dozen times is after this one... So, somehow DS9 feels "different" (for me) after this two parter here We'll see what you will think about it in the next year. Looking forward to the DS9 post-series discussion ;)

Fedora The Explorar

"They are going to expect to rate this one triple S cause theyve seen the entire series" honsetly no, this was a top tier episode for me on my first watch. Thought itd be one for you too cause it is right up your alley and you also had no complains with it. Oh well, you still liked it.

D Jammers

I agree, this episode is good.

Scott Woodward

1:15:10 You are very welcome! Thank you for a great answer. Glad you enjoyed the trivia.

THE Fans

Guys... please ignore all hype for any episode. I always loved this episode, but too much of the hype is based on part 2, or 1 and 2 together. Consider all this for the future also because it might happen a little too often. "This next episode is magnificent!"... based on some tie to the next or a future episode. I agree with your grade for this episode... great moments, but an A at best.

Keith S

Something about that informants voice made me check the credits. It was Joseph Ruskin. That guy seems to pop up in a lot of Star Trek.

Tasha Yar's Positronic Vibrator

Agreed, overhype is ruining the first time reactrions a little, tbh. I guess it's probably kind of unavoidable.

Gary Willig

It's funny how casually the show deals with the fact that this is what Tom Riker was trying to uncover back in Defiant. Tain mentions once that this joint Cardassian-Romulan fleet was built in the same system Tom was trying to reach and which the Obsidian Order was so focused on keeping secret. Now we know that Tom was wrong about it being a threat to the colonists or the Federation and Dukat was wrong about it being meant for a coup against the Cardassian government. It was to hide their preparations for an all-out assault on the Dominion.

THE LORE!!!

Yup, it's almost a throwaway line about the Orias sector ships that I wonder if the boys caught it and remembered. I believe a few people in the takes brought it up, but mods went to town deleting them in these parts, even if they weren't spoilery.

Patric Flück

Garak gets some of the best lines in the show and this episode is no exemption. "You should never tell the same lie twice" is one of my all time favorites.

Ryan

I love that they don't make a big deal about that connection. It's an Easter egg for fervent fans to catch because the show assumes we're smart. Not always a great assumption in my case, but I appreciate that they treat us like that.

Ryan

As a part 1, this was slower than I remembered, but I love the distance it travels from beginning to end. "It's an isolated assassination attempt!" -> "It's a conspiracy to start a galactic war!" Didn't see that one coming on my first watch. I also love Tain's monologue about the racial slur. It's such a pointed way for him to say to Garak, "I play this game better than you do." Tain uses every conversation to add another +1 to his charisma stat.

StonyD

The writing and banter from two theater guys like Rene and Andrew just going back and forth like true masters of the stage, eating up those long verbal battles between Odo and Garack like the full meal the show rarely offers actors of their caliber and skill...it's almost therapeutic. I think Armin would have been the only other one to be able to handle the dialogue with such finesse, and having him as a third in those scenes would have blown the back wall of the set out. Great stuff. One of my all-time favorite Part One's in DS9.

Vexx

Your reaction seems reasonable. I think you nailed it when you mentioned that we have seen the rest of the show. I think this part of the season shines more in rewatches. Also, you mentioned the little bits of continuity and that feels like a bigger deal to me than you. Glad you enjoyed it and cant wait to see your reaction to the next one!

Zenlike Creature

I've been waiting for this and the next episode all season! I think these are the best episodes of season three. Garak is great and the dialogue is fantastic throughout. I'm also great you guys appreciated Garak's "Never tell the same lie twice" line. I certainly added that to my lexicon. Look forward to hearing your thoughts and the next episode!

Steven Linden

Interesting discussion about what makes you like an episode - it sounds like for you it's more about individual moments that hit very hard. For me, while I love those moments, it's more of a holistic thing. For instance, I love "Whispers" as much as you do - but for me it's not as much about the revelation at the end (which, granted, is great) as it is about the enjoyment of being along for the ride through the whole episode. Or "Duet", it's not about the shocking ending for me as much as it is the fun of following the gradually unfolding truth through the great performances by Nana Visitor and the guest actor. I love this one - not my favorite episode or anything, but probably an S - but it's not that there's a single moment in it I can point to and say that I was blown away by it. It's more the fun of watching things slowly unfold through the great performances of Robinson and Auberjonois.

TalynOne

Wonderful episode with excellent verbal sparring between Garak and Odo, in my top 10.

Sykonee

Cannot deny, as a standalone, this episode does lose a little luster with repeated viewings, basically boiling down to a standard 'Who Done It?' mystery with some clever twists. Once you know the outcome, re-sitting through the beats can be pedestrian. Fortunately, it's interspaced with tons of great character moments for Odo and Garak, making it worth a re-watch at least on those merits alone. All the continuity buttons from the past year puts a nice little bow in it!

Sam Langanke

Is Alex still bored by Heroes and Demons? He seems to be checked out again.

Narnman

Oh neat that's Galt from TOS: "The Gamesters of Triskelion"

KR Thompson

Hah! I’m glad I’m not the only one who just found this episode regular good rather than mind-blowing or my favorite or anything. Fully agreed that Necessary Evil is leagues better. Though I think I’m a little cooler on it even than Alex and Josh, hah — for example, the cave scene just never worked for me for some reason. Loved the scene with the perfume interrogation and a lot of the other dialogue, though.

Derek Locke

I will never see that scene again without imagining Avery Brooks cralking across the table with a GoPro attached to his head!

Derek Locke

Great episode yes, but I wouldn't ever consider this my favorite. It only has one aspect of what makes the show so great. I can think of plenty of episodes that I put above this one.

Ross Townsend

The frame transition when the Warbird decloacked is was utterly magical. Great attention to detail!

Derek Locke

I understand each episode probably needs to be graded on it's own merits, but I would like to see you withhold comment sometime until after a multiple part episode is completed. I personally believe it's unfair to grade this episode without having seen it's conclusion, even though I do like this episode on it's own. It would be like grading the first half of Whispers on it's own without knowing the conclusion yet.

Collin Freeman

As someone who never saw this episode before (and the vast majority of episodes to come), I would have to rate this one a solid A. Even I, who did not see most of DS9 in it's original run, have some idea of what is to come, and therefore, as Josh pointed out, because I know that, it probably elevates this episode from a B to an A for me. But I can see why Alex and Josh are not as excited about it as much as previous viewers of the series.

River Acheron

I cannot give this episode an accurate grade. As you pointed out, Josh....when one knows what's coming, some level of foresight bias sets in. I would have to put myself back in the mindset I was in when I first binged the series, and Hell, I don't remember lol. Many episodes I watched while drinking, etc. So how can I judge this on its OWN? i do remember really liking it and psyched to begin part 2 So, I will try. As an epiosde with no other expectations....um, well def not an S. I would say, it's an A. Solid, entertaining and mysterious. And Garak. That alone is the price of admission. I will say, without spoiling anything, that REwatching it after seeing the entire series, it's one of those that gets better and is an S for me NOW. I hope all this makes sense. But ya episodes like this are very hard to rate and explain without spoilers. :P

River Acheron

I definitely feel Josh is more excited with Star Trek in general than Alex is at THIS stage. I am only going by facial expressions and also excitement levels. I could be completely wrong, btw. But it's just how it seems.

Duncan McDonald

Odo and Garak - one of the best pairings in any episode. Just wonderful.

Jonathan

It dawned on me that when Season 3 of DS9 aired this was my first exposure to serialized tv where everything didn’t reset. So endings like the Season 2 finale or this episode were mind blowing since it was clear that the episode wouldn’t wrap up everything in a two parter

tyranusfan

Who are you going to interview next?

Colby

Spoiler warning

Marko

That is strange why would they delete those takes, it's not a spoiler at this point. And I think the guys should have that info. I could only think they were hoping to keep it vague until the next episode to be completely revealed. Maybe?

Colby

This episode is S just for that line.

TC Green

Josh “Just A Fucking Guy” sounds like an old ECW gimmick.

tyranusfan

I love how your interface switched to Romulan when that Warbird appeared

Phenomenon (Doo - Dooo - Dah - Doo - Doo)

The show has officially pulled out of a bit of a slump. I get the feeling a lot of talent and resources was diverted to Voyager for the first handful of episodes so it would not suffer from the "First season slog" that every Trek show of this era endured when they launched. Once Voyager was solidly established, DS9 was able to spread its wings again LET'S FLAP! *okay ... that wasn't the triumphant battle cry I hoped it would be. I'll work on it

Steven Linden

"Josh is more excited than Josh". That's deep, man.

Laura Thornley

Regarding the whole "if we love it they'll hate it" and vice versa talk going on - I don't see it that way. I see it as Josh and Alex like what they like and don't care for - and I'm getting a grip on what those things are. High-action episodes aren't necessarily your thing is the stakes aren't there or if there's a bad (or rather, unsuitable) guest actor, but you love the introspective character stories where things don't even need to happen. There's overlap. I have a strong feeling now what episodes you'll like and even what rating you'll give them (no spoilers of course). I think I know where we'll disagree. I'm also very open to having my preconceptions changed on a few episodes that are on my usual skip list (Melora as an example - I'm still not a fan, but its not in my shit-tier list anymore), and also being more critical of some of my personal favourites (The Jem'hadar having a tonal dissonance and the weird forced emotional impact of the destruction of the Odyssey). Its why I watch. I like new perspectives on the show I tentatively consider my favourite of all time (I actually had a think about it last night when trying to sleep and came to the conclusion it probably is overall, with A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms perhaps dethroning it if the next season continues the why the first did).

tyranusfan

Well, building on what Column Meanie said, the reason this episode works so well is because of all the world building that TNG (and TOS for that matter) did. We know the Romulans. We know the Cardassians. We know how they operate. We know what they're capable of, and what they've done before confronting the Federation. So, seeing them (or at least their intelligence agencies) team up is a huge moment in this universe, and adds to the growing fear of the Dominion.

tyranusfan

Oh, I'll tell you anything you want to know about medicine. Or tennis. Would you like my opinion on the latest nillimite alloy racket?

Worf and Riker Ride Again

I'd give this one a solid A. The strength is definitely with the writing and directing, we finally see Garak being forced to admit his past and the dialogue between him and Odo is fantastic. It's one of those episodes where you admire the craft put into it.

Sam Langanke

Medicine and tennis? So you are Julian Bashir?

alyssagynepuppy

I really had to laugh when Alex mentioned Thomas Riker since the episode where he stole the Defiant laid quite a bit of groundwork for this one.

River Acheron

Corrected. I have to stop typing at work and half-paying attention to what I'm saying. Shows ya my work ethic, no? And I manage an entire Health and Beauty dept at a supermarket. lol. Meh. At least I don't wear ear-buds at work like 45% of my coworkers. :P

Sunny

It’s a good episode, but for me, I like the ones that elicit an emotional response beyond chuckles the best. Like lots of nostalgia, hurting with the characters even though I know the blow is coming, or being moved by an events impact on the show’s universe. That’s what makes want to share a particular episode with someone and say - see how good this is??? I like Garak episodes but this isn’t that for me.

Timur Nersesov

If you like the "plan from the start" thing then Babylon 5 should be your jam. If y'all haven't seen it, I'd rewatch it along with y'all. Been hanging with you since TNG S3.

Trent Bowles

I mean, there was no way they were going to love this episode on its own. It takes a long time to get going and very little actually happens overall. Its brilliance is in a subtlety you couldn't possibly pick up on without knowing more of the context revealed later. It's unfortunate it wasn't just shown as a two-hour feature, because this is more of a first half than most actual Star Trek first halves.

Aroha

It's not even necessarily the next episode I'm excited for, it's that and all the ones after. They all have a different feeling I can't describe after this, everyone says this but ds9 truly starts here. It becomes it's own thing and stops caring about any other trek. I give this ep an A, I was very excited watching this ep for the first time but I was binging s3 so my view is different.

John M.

I think Avery Brooks is the best of the actors who did directing who didn't make a career of it.

Doctor Pulaski

Yeah, this is definitely the beginning of a new era of quality.

Doctor Pulaski

This episode is great, but I do feel like much of the glazing must have been meant for the two parter as a whole... This is indeed a great part one, but not even in my top 10 DS9 episodes. I'd even give it S tier if I'm feeling generous, but not top 10. Both parts taken together I would consider it though...

John M.

Deep Space Nine and then Buffy. And lots of other shows started to do this in the late 90s for one episode, playing with the fact that people expected everything to reset. Even the Simpsons did it in 1997, keeping Skinner and Krabappel together at the end of the episode. That qualified as a genuine shock at the time. :D

John M.

When I was a teen this one bored me and the next one blew my socks off, so I get it.

John M.

I'm imagining the worm.

William Roberts

really liked the layout transition when the Romulans decloaked!

JoeCensored

I don't think you noticed how this is a sequel to the episode Defiant. Thomas Riker was simply wrong about the purpose of the mystery fleet.

Erik L Jerks

I love this episode and the pairing of Odo and Garak. Everything about it is excellent, but it doesn't have some of the emotional gut punches that appeal to these two. So an A tracks. For scripting, plot, and world-building this (combined with Part 2) it is S-Tier though.

STEMBOB

Why not do the 2 together?

Deliximus

Don't think they ever did that for multi partners

Deliximus

A/S tier is certainly the rating for this fanatic ep

Deliximus

Yeah, I'm surprised it wasn't brought up.

Sam Langanke

The mention of the Orias sector was just one line. Easy to miss on fist watch.

River Acheron

Did they air at the same time the original run? I would guess not but I could be wrong.

Shortskirtsandexplosions

You really switched to Romulan font/color scheme halfway through the watch through, huh? Snazzy.

Shortskirtsandexplosions

I felt this episode was an A at best. Really nice, but not the absolute best of DS9.

Philbot

Julian and Garak are so Queer coded their goodbye was practically like here’s looking at you kid..

Jaymison Boeker

They have not seen it. It was 2nd place in the last bridge crew poll for the bridge crew's show pick(Finishing the Expanse won). Very possibly the bridge crew will pick Babylon 5 next after the Expanse.

John A

Odo, meets his own Deep Throat in this one. haha. I like this one, do I think it is the best, not really, but really solid. It takes it's time and build fine. So I do think it is a really sold good episode. Josh and Alex, you both did great with Gates, she seem very comfortable with you both, and like you said you let her talk, that was great. I did know you both were not going to give it an "S" but I thought you would like it a lot more then you seemed.

John A

I agree an A at best

Joseph

Dude, I would freaking LOVE a Bab 5 watch along. These guys would probably love it, especially when it got going.

Loot Narsbaar

My S rationale would be this has the best dialogue of any episode of Trek ever by far.

Loot Narsbaar

Shout out to the DS9 cave set who is the frontrunner for MVP of season 3.

Loot Narsbaar

The reason I like this one so much is because it reminds me in a way of Better Call Saul. It's slow, takes it's time, and has outstanding dialogue. The journey can be as/more rewarding than the destination. Also, Alex is (somewhat understandably) downplaying the weight of the continuity. Today paying off a detail like Tom Riker's charge into the Orius System is par for the course on a good show. In 1995 it was mind blowing. Most shows of the time, a few I dare not mention, smashed the reset button hard at the end of every episode.

Loot Narsbaar

The Bonding was a solidly above average episode. P. good.

Sam Langanke

They should do it after Trek or at least DS9. They are so easy ScFi fatgued.

Doctor Pulaski

Yes, this is the most better call Saul trek 100%. Now I just want a Vince Gilligan Star Trek show

reactive1

I agree, this one was one of my favorite episodes from when it first aired in 1995.

reactive1

Before this episode, Garak and Dukat were in a virtual tie for my favorite DS9 character, but Garak clinched the top spot with this episode. Possibly my favorite Garak episode of the series.

Loot Narsbaar

You mean in addition to the pie eating contest from TOS?

BN13

Josh is right. The way you guys feel about this episode is how most of us feel about episodes like "The Bonding," "Lessons," "Heart of Stone," "Life Support," "Whispers," and even "Necessary Evil." It's a matter of preference. We go "Wow! THAT'S their favorite? I mean it was really good. I like that episode. But I didn't think it was THAT great. It didn't blow me away or anything. I mean it's nowhere near something like Improbable Cause." Although I am surprised to see so many people say this is their favorite too. IMO, I like the next episode a lot better. THAT one blew me away. This just feels like the setup to the next one. That said though, it's very good setup. And it's important world building which is what I think most of us like DS9 most for.

CommodoreDecker

B5 is so unique. I hope they eventually do it and that they stick with it long enough to appreciate it.

Ceruleo

I'm sure they will hate this episode and the next. I will be as disappointed as I was when I watched their Star Trek VI reaction, but today is my birthday and this is a nice surprise because I thought it was coming out next week!

Jack Molitor

Interesting. I guess I didn’t realize the hallowed place this held with the fandom. Similar to you guys, this one is great. But I hardly think of it as the best, especially considering it’s followed up immediately by what I think is a far superior episode. And there’s just so much more amazing stuff to come from DS9.

BN13

Are you sure they were actually deleted? I noticed that the takes for this episode and the next were really buggy. One screen said there were 114 takes, but then only 25 would display. A lot of them wouldn't show up on my phone, but if i logged in on my computer, another group would show up instead. I double checked because for a while, I thought my take got deleted and I couldn't figure out what I would have said that was a spoiler. Turns out it wasn't deleted at all.

Paul

The Man of Law & The Man of Lies, I like that quote, Greg. Perfect pairing indeed. Fantastic foundation for this two-parter, I think my favorite scene was with Bashir explaining that crying wolf story, and the man of lies having the perfect repartee. A man of lies yes, but great wit and creativity as well.

Paul

Happy Birthday, and thankfully they did not hate it at all.

Paul

It's a 100% mirror. Starring at the same picture and seeing something entirely different, or perhaps, with a blemish here and there that the other cannot perceive.

Paul

Some people live for the knockout punches. Some live for the back-and-forth sparring. I like both but I live more for the whole journey.

Walt Vita

Andrew Robinson and Paul Dooley.. fucking great exposition

Tim Nikiforovs

The only correct response was "I've been looking forward to this"

Better Watch Trek

Better call Saul? Better watch Trek! ;) :D :grin

Tim Nikiforovs

I imagined him locking his legs straight and having someone push on his feet for that smooth slide

Tim Nikiforovs

I get where you're coming from, but I'd say that's more what the end of season tier listing is for. Back in the day, there might have been part 1s that we didn't appreciate until we saw the conclusion they were setting up.

tyranusfan

I didn't want to cross-contaminate the fandoms

Tim Nikiforovs

Enabran Tain is back in the game? Dooley noted. I do love this 2 parter overall, I would say the best up to this point in the series, but I'm teetering between a B and an A for this episode on it's own. That said, I can also see why it might be someone's favourite. The dialogue is sharp and creative, and Avery did a fantastic job directing it. Also the Odo and Garak pairing works so well it's shocking it took almost 3 seasons for them to try it. So yes, there's a lot to love here. That said, it's very much setup for the next episode. But as part 1s go, I don't feel it was unnecessary of dragged out the setup. There is a lot to cover, and the episode doesn't waste it's runtime, but it doesn't provide much payoff, so some level of patience is required. In regards to Garak's "never tell the same lie twice", I agree with Josh that you'll still eventually gain a reputation as a liar even if you vary the lies. Case in point, Garak is complaining that nobody believes him, and Bashir uses the boy who cried wolf story to illustrate why. Garak throughout the series has varied his lies quite a bit. We got 3 separate stories about his past and why he was exiled in The Wire alone, and here we get yet another story of why he was exiled, inspired by the Wesley Snipes biography Bashir loaned him. Garak hasn't tended to "tell the same lie twice", and yet he's still not trusted. Sure it might buy you some more time, but in the end, you'll still gain a reputation as a liar. It really does suck for Tom Riker that he basically threw his whole life away to expose the Cardassian fleet in Orias thinking it was being built to take on the Maquis, and they weren't even the target. I doubt he even realizes that, unless the Cardassians shared that with him just to mess with him. In the end, all the spy craft and political intrigue are the big selling points here. Garak's obfuscation and Odo's obsessions with finding the truth. The man of law and the man of lies as Greg so eloquently put it. Loved Dooley, Robinson and Auberjonois chewing the scenery at the end. Still, it's the next one I always look forward to more on rewatches.

Doctor Pulaski

I gave you a like for "Dooley noted".

Some Guy

The big event of this episode is Garak finally working up the courage to ask Bashir to eat his rod.

paultardspambot .

On the other hand, for some people, if they lie enough, people will believe everything they say. Funny paradox that. But that's a producgt of authoritarianism and Cardassia is clearly a society that is extremely authoritarian and as such what "truth" means there is different.

paultardspambot .

I think what they meant about Behr was that this was a point where he kind of saw, ok, we're building a long term plot, and if an individual episode does something big with the continuity, if its too much off the direction we are building to... It was more of a realization that while we are making this up as we go along, we have to get control of the big term plot stuff so someone was keeping an eye on that and saying "wait a minute, this idea might work for this episode but that will force us down this direction and we want to balance the freedom to write good episodes with what we want to set up for the future. It wasn't "I personally will control the direction of this show" it was more, ok, we need to start thinking about how whatever elements we introduce play out in the long run" I did not realize from the first patron take that they introduced the mysterious Obsidian Order Fleet without knowing what that was for. It makes sense though that in an episode like this where multiple "open" plot things are weaving together, someone realized "ok, we have a great way we want to use these things we've built, but let's start considering what we introduce in terms of possible directions it might go in and nut write ourselves into a corner. I guess it means that where I had previously thought they had these big plans all along, there is a realization, ok, to keep control of this huge story with its multiple intersecting plots, we need to consider what we introduce in the future and where it could possibly lead and someone is keeping an eye on that, like if an episode introduces a piece of lore, we want to look at that and think "ok, where could this go and is going to open up directions or close them down, etc.

Avaria

By the Prophets, I love these layered episodes. Odo's connections with the Cardassian government were established back in the first and second seasons with episodes like "Necessary Evil." We learned about Garrik's ties to the Obsidian Order, his connection to Tain, and the fact that Tain is keeping a close enough eye on DS9 to know what drink to offer Dr. Bashier in "The Wire." As for the galactic politics, we saw in "Visionary," that, based on the intelligence from the Federation that they received as part of their agreement in "The Search," the Romulans consider the Dominion a serious enough threat to act unilaterally to address it -- regardless of the collateral damage. "Second Skin" and "Defiant" showed us that the Central Command, Obsidian Order, and Military factions of the Cardassian Government have, to some extent, been operating independently of each other, and not necessarily towards the same objectives. "Defiant" also showed us that the Order in particular has been working in secret towards something big, since Thomas Riker was trying to take out the secret shipyard that provided the Cardassian portion of the joint fleet that Garrik and Odo ran into today. And we've seen that the Romulans and Cardassians have a similar outlook when it comes to foreign relations. But, at the same time, we've seen in "The Jem'Hadar," and "The Search," that the Founders are also secretive and very careful about how, where and in what context they present themselves, have a very binary view of order, and don't have the best track record when it comes to proportionality of response. So much fun to see these three factions knock against each other.

Banes

By now you know the Cardassian in shadow turns out to be Denise Crosby

International Man of Leisure

Cool continuity: In the infirmary, after the bombing, Sisko tells Garak he's been assigned a security escort. In a later scene, when Garak enters Odo's office, you can see he's being escorted by a couple of Odo's deputies, who remain outside the office. Barely noticeable. But it's there. Attention to detail.

International Man of Leisure

I take Garak's saying "Is there anyone you care about" to Odo was his way of telling him that "I know your secret". These two characters showing off that they can figure each other out & are equally skilled. Despite it all, I think it's clear they earn each other's respect in this 2-parter.

Sic Coyote

When Garek turns the conversation on Odo and says how he doesn't feel anything for anyone, he probably already has realised Odo feels for Kira he's very observant, BUT Garek did successfully turn the conversation towards Odo and throw him off into concentrating on his own lie, getting away from the conversation being about Garek. He's not wrong, he's saying what he needs to, to get the result he requires.

TinMan_7B9

I thought this reaction was good. It was ok. Nothing to write home about. If I had to tier-rate it right now I'll probably give it an A, maybe a B. The episode was great though. Probably because this is a two-parter, all I remember are scenes from the second part. Part I's are hard to rate without having seen the conclusion. Looking forward to the next reaction.

CarnifexRex

Really surprised that so many takes saying this is their all time favorite episode. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a fantastic episode. Great writing and direction. But compared to some of the episodes later on (in particular one in season 4 and another in season 7 that bring me to tears everytime) it surprises that this episode has so many triple S scores. But to each their own, and I did have a great time watching along

Numinous2019

[In case no one has mentioned this yet] Improbable Cause was a self-contained one episode story. It ended with Garek threatening Tain with the contents of the data rod (back on DS9) and so he and Odo would be able to extract themselves from Tain's plans. The decision to expand the story to 2 episodes required Through The Looking Glass to be speedily written and filmed between I.C. and T.D.I.C. to allow time for the 2nd part to be written. The data rod was then turned into the punchline of the joke Garek plays on Bashir.

sword bard

One of the reasons I love TA so much is that their tastes align very much with my own for what I love about Star Trek. (While still having plenty of episodes where they provide a new or deeper take on something that makes me see that episode differently.)

sword bard

If you pay close attention, you can spot the sign that he's not Bashir. Bashir would never have *asked* if you want his opinion on nillimite alloy rackets. He would already be 23,000 words in.

Cranky Grandma

The auto generated captions are cracking me up. Of course we have Kardashians. But also towel. She are. And Gold Dukat. Poor voice to text program can’t deal with DS9 🙂. And yes, DS9 goes where no trek has (mostly) gone before- still episodic but also an overarching story.

Lorne Pribbeno

I cannot tell you the amount of times I've seen these two episodes. Often just have them on for familiar background noise. I love how it all starts with a simple investigation and wends its way into a bigger setup completely out of left field. All centered around the GOATs of the series and possibly Trek on a whole, Garak and Odo. Not to mention how much these episodes were setup from previous episodes. Tain said that the fleet came from a system that they were building up forces. THIS is the same system Tom Riker took the Defiant to expose. Looking forward to the next.

BN13

I took that whole conversation to be Garak feeling like Odo was getting a little close to home for him, so he tried to emotionally knock him down as a way to get him to back off. I don't think Garak knows anything about Kira at all.

Ca$hWednesday

I absolutely agree that this is a fantastic episode. I'm surprised by the amount of S's (esses, Sses?) in the takes. I don't think this episode is even in my top 10 of the show. Solid "A" for me though. The next episode is superior in my opinion.

Cranky Grandma

I kinda thought Garak was largely talking about himself but using that as a tool to get to Odo

David Kirk

It wouldn't have been an acceptable single episode because Tain said Odo had to stay and that's a big thing. A for me and the next episode is an S.

Cranky Grandma

Oh I’d disagree there! They just have different expressions.

Cranky Grandma

Yes I agree. I remember being blown away by Garak rejoining Tain, and loving this on first watch in the 90s. I agree with you, “re-sitting through the beats can be pedestrian”. Some episodes I love to rewatch. This one is just okay to rewatch — unless I watching with someone who has never seen it before.

Cranky Grandma

Yes, that was a great bit of Dialogue and in seconds had us see Tain clearly.

Cranky Grandma

I think overhype for DS9 has colored some of their views and underhype for Voyager as well.

Richard Finch

Garek calling Tain’s invasion force an “excursion” hits differently today for some reason.

Who North America

I don't know if I ever considered this my "favorite" Deep Space Nine episode... personally, that would probably fall to "House of Quark." But it certainly is memorable and the next episode equally so... never paid attention to the direction; I more allow myself to get absorbed into the story and ignore the "mechanics" of an episode, so I appreciate those who draw attention to those details.

Callum Roberts

I love this episode. It’s not the best episode of the show by any means but Garak is great in every scene he’s in, there’s some fire lines in this. My guess is most people rating this at the very top are including the next episode with it. It’s a fun mystery with great character moments that sets up a great part 2 in my opinion. Very curious to see if you guys think part 2 lives up to the setup. I hope so but everyone’s tastes vary.

Callum Roberts

I think most people are taking the two parter as one episode when they say it’s their favourite. It’s great as an episode in its own right but the 2nd part really pushes it higher. You’d rarely sit down to just revisit this on its own, you’d watch both.

Paul Penter

As TA has just commented on, for TA and anyone who wants to see DS9 and Voyager looking as close to Blu-ray quality as you'll ever likely see check out https://archive.org/search?query=ldtv720 This must've been a massive project from LDTV720 and these look absolutely stunning using the laserdiscs and later DVDs as a base for the upscale. They are night and day better than Netflix and the original DVDs, you won't regret it!

Kristina Weber

I assume the rating on IC is inflated by the strengths of TDIC. Most fans probably link pt 1 and pt 2 in their minds.

Tigers Fan

Thanks for the link... I just downloaded and compared an episode (The Die Is Cast) to the 1080p fan made upscale that I watch and I preferred the one I already have - the colours looked more natural. There are a few upscales out there but this is the one I am waiting for - https://ds9redefined.wordpress.com/ Other than an official remaster that is.

EnigmaticPenguin

This episode is representative of Patron commenting bias for S and E. For all the praise it gets in the ones you read, there’s a lot of people like myself who enjoyed it but had nothing to say one way or another and couldn’t be arsed to comment on it. The B/C ranks on this one are probably the silent majority.

Doug

Nice Romulan transition during the reaction

Numinous2019

The I.C. script is extremely well constructed. And the characterisation is acute. This is why I prefer this to T.D.I.C., which has some padding to fill out the runtime (the B plot recycles sfx footage and even has a spanner in the works to add more minutes). It depends on whether someone prefers clockwork precision (I.C.), or high highs with functional bits.

Paul Penter

No worries. I've tried a bunch of upscales but due to the poor sources they always lose a ton of detail, especially in the faces. Using the Laserdiscs for the first 3-4 seasons where a much better source to then upscale and as you say the colour is a massive upgrade to the washed out DVDs. I think these are from the DS9redefined source, I believe it's a member of that team and DS9redefined will not be releasing their upscales to the public anyway. Unless Paramount do an extensive remaster down the line, I don't see these being beaten.

Numinous2019

I have the opposite perspective. It is very rare to watch a script that has no fat and no weaknesses. Usually even the best ST episodes would leave me wondering if they could be improved. You can't improve this script. It's the tightest, most consistent DS9 script so far. It has no lapses and does not try to substitute emotional reaction in the viewer for any deficiency in storytelling.

JB

Regarding the McFaddenGate discussion - one thing that can help is to WAY overbudget the filming time if you can arrange it with the interviewee. Many sins can be fixed in post and knowing that takes a lot of pressure off during the interview itself. EDIT: BTW this is not any kind of commentary on the interview itself but Josh's statement about being in "producer mode".

Josh Mariota

This two-parter is what got me into DS9. Before I watched a few episodes from the previous seasons and they didn't quite wean me in. An obvious S-tier episodes.

Miranda

I think this episode is better than the next one. This one is perfectly written. The next one has that tired plot of, "You may be court martialed if you come on this dangerous mission Starfleet doesn't approve of". That entire Sisko/Defiant story was a waste of time.

Miranda

This isn't my favorite episode of DS9, but because of that precision in writing, and the incredible character work, I think it is better than TDIC. Though in combination, these episodes get an S+ and in combination make my top 10 list.

Jonathan Llyr

In the discussion you pointed out that there wasn’t a particular “moment” that made the episode stand out as a favourite for you. I think for people who absolutely love this episode, the entire episode - IS - the moment.

Andrew Mullin

You didn’t do this as a two parter?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? HOW DARE YOU!!!!!

Andrew Mullin

Watching 2 episodes of non-federation Characters respond to the outside world after living with the Federation is so fascinating to me. I don’t know how intentional this was, but these are straight up 2 fascists dominating 2 episodes and…. Well, I guess we have to wait till next week to see how it turns out.

Miranda

You are wanting to know why people rate this episode so highly. But you also say you don't want long Patron takes. So, you can't know why people like this if you won't read a long post! I will explain why I do, but it will take a long post! Part of this does come from having seen the entire series. And part of it comes from having re-watched this particular episode, and how it influences the next one. So, you are right that the patron rating is coming partially from the fact that we've seen the whole series. But part of it is people recognizing the incredible writing in this one. You're talking about how it doesn't have one "great moment". No, what it has is one great overall script. The way the script constantly escalates the story in every scene is what makes it so great. It starts with Garak and Bashir having lunch and arguing about Shakespeare. (Specifically, Garak deriding Caesar for not realizing the danger comes from his best friend.) And then someone tries to kill Garak. But that person was sent by the Romulans?? And Garak doesn't even know why? And this isn't just about Garak, the Romulans have been killing other Cardassians, and have a fleet of cloaked ships in Cardassian space. And Tain may be in trouble! But, actually Tain is in charge, and the Romulans and Cardassians are going to attack the Dominion, and also Tain wants Garak to join them. Every scene slowly but surely takes the episode from a cozy murder mystery step by step into what is looking like possibly a galactic war? And it uses elements the writers already laid in prior episodes, so it doesn't feel like it came out of nowhere. Finally, what we also love is the incredible character work. How we see so much focus on Garak and Odo. How Odo feels like he's starting to understand Garak and then at the end, realizes perhaps he doesn't know Garak as well as he thought. And how we see Garak actually confused and surprised, and weirdly see him genuinely concerned about Tain, the guy who has exiled him. The plot escalates with precision, and the character interaction reveals more about each character to each other and the audience. That's why the patrons love it.

Josh Overton

That speech at the beginning got me punching the air, goin', "HECK YEAH!" Makes me feel hopeful about seeing a success story like this. However, on a downer, more realistic note, after DS9 and VOY, you're gonna see a lot of dropoff. Here's hoping you can pivot to another favored series/franchise. Attack on Titan (subbed) is always one that hooks me.

Miranda

It also has one of the best plot structures

Andrew Mullin

“What debt would he have to ODO” ODO is a fascist collaborator. He followed Cardasian rules, which include personal bribes. I would not be surprised if Odo had tortured people.

Scarpad’s Domain

There’s not one episode of Voyager so far , No S , No A, no nothing that can even come near this episode, from both about story telling or acting angle.

Anthony Hernandez

That is so amazing to hear about Gates being so kind to you guys. It’s just wonderful to hear people in positions like her being so down to earth and generous. Thank you for sharing this.

AdmiralMurphy

I had the exact same reaction as Alex and Josh first viewing and never even knew for a long time this was a fan favorite. It was really only on rewatches I saw the magic of this episode. Also I feel like no scene stands out like some in other episodes as so many scenes in this episode are just strong. Great camera work and direction, and great dialogue writing between characters. Odo and the informant, Odo and the Interrogation, Bashir and Garaks scenes, and the ending with Tain just is so well written and acted which is why I always look forward to this episode.

Todd

2 Julian-Garak dates this season? We are blessed. Julian was so sweet when he gave Elim the chocolates, with that twinkle in his eye. This is an amazing episode for both Rene Auberjonois and Andrew Robinson. Just listening to them was enthralling. Regarding the taking an episode and making it 2 parts, this is the part where Alex might otherwise say about letting things breathe. Don't psyche yourself out Alex.

HeatheЯ

Because the writing/acting is just pure Shakespeare I give this an S but it's not even in my top 20. Love that you guys were throwing out Garak blew up his own shop right away. The fade to Romulan green was great :D

Aaron Wells

Garek and Odo both in top form here. They play off each other perfectly. Far better than Bashir, IMO.

Aaron Wells

Enterprise is underrated.

Aaron Wells

Yep...an episode carried entirely by excellent performances.

Aaron Wells

I loved Column's video. Agree entirely...though not my favorite episode...there are so many terrific ones...but its top shelf. I love that kind of enthusiasm though...its why Trek has had decades of enduring, indefatigable fandom...and why this thing is gaining traction among yet another generation who hadn't even been born yet when it was made. There's just *something* there.

Aaron Wells

And yeah...this episode is overglazed. Its fantastic. It's an A. It's not an S. It doesn't have any flaws I can think of...I don't have any complaints. But it doesn't blow my hair back like a Yesterday's Enterprise or Inner Light. Or Duet. I would give the complete 2 part story an S. But just the setup? A. Nothing wrong with A.

John M.

Two Voyager actors and Burton all have extensive directing credits, too.

Dr. Paul Stubbs

To be clear, I would have given this episode an A or B after my first viewing. I liked it. I was mainly responding to the S++ ratings I was seeing in the takes, which genuinely surprised me for an episode I felt dragged on in a couple spots. Maybe it's because the first suspect that came to mind when the shop blew up was... Garak. So it didn't surprise me when Odo accused Garak halfway through the episode and it made a lot his detective work feel like filler. That said, I enjoyed the episode more on a re-watch after viewing Part 2. I would give it an S now. In the "VOY: State of Flux" discussion, we talked about how the episode works best on a first viewing, where we don't know who the traitor is. This episode, for me, is the inverse. Where it works best on a re-watch, when you already know the context of the second part. I appreciated Andrew Robinson's performance a lot more this time around, fully understanding what he is hiding and showing to others based on what happens in Part 2. For example, I think a big reason Garak agrees to join Tain at the end of the episode is because the offer to leave does not include Odo. It's a subtle detail that I didn't fully pick up on the first time around.

Ca$hWednesday

That's how I feel as well. Not taking anything away from the episode but this doesn't reach Duet level for me.

Steven McDowell

Yeah, it’s that “timeless” quality that makes me wince a bit when people (in the times of Nu-Trek) say “Star Trek is dead!” This Classic era of Trek meant too much to me in my formative years, and for me, will continue to live for the foreseeable future. Star Trek is not dead. As for Nu-Trek: can it truly be dead if it never had a soul?

Aaron Wells

"What is dead may never die."

MJBull

Well Josh, I guess you have graduated from being "just a guy" now that you two are hobnobbing with the actors and getting recognized by other YouTubers for what you and Alex have done here. Congrats.

uberelder

Josh actually defined an "S" as just being a perfect execution of what they were *trying* to do. doesn't have to "blow your hair back" or anything like that. i think Josh and Alex have abandoned that type of "S" rating a long time ago now, but it's interesting, because i really like that. the whole notion of needing to be "surprised" by a show in order for it to be perfect is very strange.

Aaron Wells

Well, isn't that the point of an S rating? I mean if you think about an entire show, there are certain peaks that stand out in your memory. With TNG that would be something like yesterday's Enterprise or measure of a man... The really iconic stuff. When I think of tng, I think of Picard looming over that courtroom, belting out, "...there it sits! Waiting." When I think of an S, I think of a graph with a whole bunch of peaks and valleys... The s's are those peaks. That leaves a hell of a lot more room for A's than s's. Otherwise, what's the point of an S?

Kate Courtney

Did you just 6 7 you son of a bitch!? 🤣😫

Kate Courtney

I think one of the reasons why this is such a great episode for everyone is because of the fact that it wasn't a jump out of your seat moment. It wasn't a get up from your seat because I'm bored and I can go do other things while this happens moment. It was a, I'm interested, and enough so that I just watch it and feel immersed in everything that I am seeing and hearing. Case in point, you guys did not speak through most of this and yet you thought it was a good episode with no notes that stood out. You were there, you were with it, you understood the past of these characters, the possibility of the present with these characters and what may come. I think that makes it an S.