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UNCUT - Jetrel (VOY S1E15) | Star Trek Journey 365 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-04-05 16:02:28
Edited:
2026-11-01 04:51:54
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Summer

Will have to wait to watch this till a bit later but will.

Narnman

Ah today we are blessed with a James Sloyan double header! Anyone notice this episode and the Defector, Sloyan has the exact same line in both episodes- "What I did had to be done"

Prof Moff

Voyager sex scoreboard No actual scores but honorary scores SCOREBOARD Paris – 2 Neelix - 1 Kes – 1 Chakotay 1 GUESTS James Sloyan 5 honorary scores DETAILS James Sloyan may not have had sex; but, watching him again, and the 3 previous + X files, gives me the feels and satisfaction like after great sex. So he gets some counts (but again not real ones)

Matchstick Jose

Interesting idea. Big swing. It’s just, IMO, trying to do a little too much (Jetrel as Oppenheimer racked with guilt, Neelix’s anger at him, Neelix dying, Neelix’s guilt at being a deserter, maybe over political objections, maybe because he’s a coward). It just keeps on adding things the episode doesn’t have enough time to explore. The biggest difference between this and "Duet," I think, is that "Duet" did not feel the need to give Kira something “to feel bad about” that she has to forgive herself for. She does not admit she did anything wrong in the occupation. "Duet" is very unapologetic in that respect, like the series is so far with never undermining Kira's steadfast belief that she was justified in everything she did in the resistance. “Jetrel” is also oddly uninterested in what any of the Voyager crew besides Neelix actually think of Jetrel. I don’t think any of them voice an opinion, which feels like a missed opportunity to provide some insight into the rest of the crew. They’re mostly just passive observers in the story. Great performances by Phillips and Sloyan, one of the MVPs of Trek guest actors. I’d give it a high B.

Keith S

Well i finally get to see the next episode of Voyager...he he he. Wow, I'd forgotten how good the writing was in this episode.

Prof Moff

AND I am that guy that likes this show (rank it 4th, just below TNG) but hates Neelix; however, I do get mad at the other stupid stuff with Neelix when we could have this. Or even a little silly but mostly this.

Ryan

There are S episodes, and then there are *S* episodes. I don't think there's been an episode on this Star Trek journey (yet...) that has this high a ratio of pure fire lines. I think James Sloyan has better lines and a better performance here than in The Defector, and I don't put *anything* above The Defector. 100% sure I didn't appreciate this enough when it first aired.

Tim Nikiforovs

I've been waiting, and I've been saying, a top 10 episode of Voyager

Elizabeth N

I love this one and so glad you enjoyed it too! This one always stuck with me and I still think it's one of Neelix's best episodes. It's the first chance we get to see behind his usual cheerful persona and it makes for a far more interesting character.

Summer

Love this one. Everyone remember they probably back tracked for weeks to months so they will have to cover ground again. Neelix is great

TalynOne

It's good, but to me this is more an A and Duet is S+.

TalynOne

Great episode, it's good to see Neelix be mad about something other than other men flirting with his two year old girlfriend.

Laura Thornley

Love it when a reaction is twice the length of the episode. Means you had plenty to say!

Collin Freeman

2 James Sloyan pops in 1 week. What are the odds? I should have poured myself some drinks. Honestly, I'm just as surprised as you guys. I only watched a handful of episodes of Voyager when it first aired and my memory of X-Files episodes varies with mileage.

Philbot

Duet 2! With Neelix whoo!

Collin Freeman

In relation to something you guys were discussing, especially Alex, I've read stories about many classic actors who were stars and so insecure, they didn't want other actors who were better than them to been in scenes for fear the other actors would upstage them. But there are other actors who relish working with actors who are better than they are because they cause the less better actor's performance to rise above and be better.

Philbot

Its interesting to think that they could use the Transporter to rebuild thousands of victims obliterated by an “A-bomb” there’s probably some science that is specifically related to the metreon cascade.. you can’t just rebuild people. It may be easier for Starfleet having peoples patterns on record. Could they have brought Tasha back say 15 minutes after her death? She’d only be missing a little bit of time. That’s why I fall on the no side of is the transporter a murder machine? Because they couldn’t just make a new Tasha..

Philbot

There’s a moment where Ethan does this thing with his eyes when he’s talking to Jetrel. It reminds me of Heath Ledger. “ Wanna know how I got these scars?”

TC Green

Best episode of the season. And yeah the Neelix hate is way overblown.

Philbot

I tend to think of Neelix’s people, Talaxians as hobbits.. Before the war. Little dudes, big feet, the outfits, happy go lucky personality. Then “ The Uraki came to the shire”

Regan

One of Voyager's truly great episodes.

Ross Townsend

Voiceover, self-correcting Josh was amazing. More god-voice surprises! Also this episode is peak, and one of my favourite reminders that Trek can add surprise (and believable) character development at any time, much like I feel about Inheritance.

Joseph Schmidt

I don't think I have seen this episode since it first aired, and admittedly, my biggest take away from this viewing was the comment "If it wasn't me, it would have been someone else," which was a similar commentary used for the development of the Atomic bomb, however, it feels relevant now because there is very similar commentary that is being used regarding the development of AI.

River Acheron

I agree Duet is better as a whole. I mean, I would give both an S, it's just a matter of what I am in the mood for on a given watch.

River Acheron

The transporter is such an illogical AND inconsistent mess, I just accept the absurdity at this point. The way it works depends on the plot of the week.

Bert

Sigh. AI is not an A bomb. An A Bomb has one purpose and few if any potential constructive applications. AI, by definition, has vast applications many of which are already in use

Bert

"billions of subatomic particles" made me laugh. Damn good episode but writers often miss scale. Both numerical scale and the notion that biology can be reassembled from subatomic particles. You might as well use any material for that. Edit: For references, there are about six orders of magnitude more subatomic particles in a single human cell. Let alone a whole Tellaxian. Let alone three hundred thousand Tellaxians.

Joseph Schmidt

I mean, that is fair, but also, I probably need to make the distinction between generative AI and general AI. Generative AI has the current applications you are discussing, whereas General AI starts to get into SkyNet territory, and that's where that rhetoric is being discussed, and all I will say is that I hope that type of AI is being developed carefully, because that has the risk of being worse than an Atom bomb, even if the potential benefit could be something that could move mankind significantly forward.

Trekkie74205

It is sometimes fun to analyze the writing credits to decode the wall of writers. The difference between & and AND is huge. Teleplay by Josh & Alex means they worked together as a team. Teleplay by Josh AND Alex means they worked separately, usually one person doing a rewrite of the other person's script. So for JETREL, the concept (Story by) by James Thomton & Scott Nimerfro was passed on to Jack Klein & Karen Klein who worked together on the script AND Kenneth Biller did a rewrite. From research, I found that Kenneth Biller actually did a "Page One" rewrite on this one. This is considered the most extensive rewrite there is. You can also often determine who did more work on a script. On DS9 for instance some episodes are listed as Written by Ira & Robert and some are listed as Written by Robert & Ira. End of nerd transmission.

Loot Narsbaar

Power Rankings: 1) Pulsar 2) Nebula 3) Chef Boyardee Hat 4) Blue Lightning 5) Extraneous Expository Dialogue

Loot Narsbaar

You don't want a carbon copy of Duet so you gotta change some stuff

Shortskirtsandexplosions

Hey~ People are developing parasocial relationships with you two~ You're one step away from becoming Internet celebrities~! (It was nice watching this episode again. Still feels like a lesser good version of Duet, but it has power on its own. I'm starting to think that my negative feelings about Neelix have long been over exaggerated, kinda like how many people on the Internet have unjustly disliked Janeway over the years)

Loot Narsbaar

(Remembering when Paul McCartney wanted some Beatles songs re-credited McCartney/ Lennon and was denied)

Ficial Intelligence

I remember watching this when it first came out. I was so stoked: "Finally, Neelix is not a fop!"

Breakingthenotion

The first time I saw this about I was about 11 or 12. This episode and a lot of episodes of Trek is a lot more impactful as a grown up.

Derek Locke

Tour de force by Ethan Phillips and James Sloyan. First glimpse of the depth of Nelix's character, which is hugely misunderstood and underrated.

Marcus BlueSky

I wasn't aware of these facts at all. I am always happy when I learn something new. Thank you very much for sharing and explaining those points!

Saphthings

Honestly, being anti AI and watching Star Trek has always been funny to me. Sure, when it comes to resources, I can see that argument, like water usage. Otherwise what do you think Voyager's computer is? Holograms? It's literally the step society takes towards getting to that point lol

Joseph Schmidt

I mean, I acknowledged that that if handled appropriately, it could be a huge benefit to mankind. Star Trek has shown a mixture of AI done right and AI gone wrong iver the years. (Just to give a simple reference that isn't a spoiler, look at Moriarty and Lore in TNG as an AI gone wrong, even if Data and the ships computer ia a prime example of AI done right.) AI, created mindfully and carefully, could be incredible, but AI created haphazardly and with the wrong intent could create a Judgment Day scenario. I understand this is not apples to apples, and that the Atom Bomb is entirely designed to destroy, and that AI is not intended to be that way, even if the risk is there for it to go very wrong.

Tim Nikiforovs

Trek has had anti AI messaging since the beginning. The Ultimate Computer was all about man losing his purpose to the machines that replace him, combined with a skynet scare long before Terminator

River Acheron

AI is not gonna take over the world. I don't believe the possibility exists at all. Besides, honestly it's too amazing to give up lol

Mysticist

You know its a shame that a lot of the writing for Neelix is grating humor because Ethan Philipps is great when he has great writing to work with. I still think Neelix is on the whole not a great character because unfortunately this episode is not representative of what we see of him most of the time. However, I will give this episode a ton of credit for knowing how to utilize the character really well and I wish Neelix had been portrayed more like this going forward and less the obnoxious goofball.

Bert

But it also literally has two major characters who are AI that we are supposed to advocate for. Data and the EMH.

Bert

But it's not the last we see of this more serious side of Neelix and when he surfaces, Ethan Phillips always delivers the goods. But you're right, sadly we don't see him often enough vs the grating stuff. I think the writers wanted us to laugh with Neelix when he needles the stodgy Vulcan but we're mainly on the Vulcan's side.

Deep Red

Absolutely. I always felt really bad for Ethan because he is actually one of the best actors on the show. I'm actually in the minority of people who like Neelix. And I know Ethan kind of got fair amount of hate from the fandom over the character.

Derek Locke

I guess I'm a detractor for his character. He had his grating moments early in the show, but I didn't mind his goofiness as the show moves forward. I thought he was handled quite well, personally.

Paul

Neelix hatred is akin to Nickelback hatred. It's a mind-virus that spread with the internet and to be cool people adopted it without realizing why. Ethan Phillips is amazing. His performance in the medical bay with Sloyan is my favorite scene up to this point, by far.

Tim Nikiforovs

As I said in my take this is for me a top 10 episode of the show, possibly even top 5, but I'd have to think about that more before saying for sure. It's also not the last/only great Neelix episode. I understand the frustrations with the character, but I think the good is too often overlooked in regards to Neelix. The acting in this episode is absolutely phenomenal. From Phillips and Sloyan of course, but also from Mulgrew and Lien. I'm actually appreciating Kes a lot more on this run through the show. They haven't really had a Kes episode, but the scenes she's been given have been good, and she's probably the most empathetic member of the crew. As such she's sort of fallen into the role of ship's counselor, and that's very much on display here. For only being 2 years old, she's pretty good at reading people. Mulgrew also does a good job showing that Janeway is connecting with how much Neelix is hurting from reliving his trauma. Neelix's dream is somewhat confusing to me. Seeing Kes as Palaxia is typical nightmare stuff, but it's more what the meaning of seeing himself as Jetrel, which feels almost like the cave vision on Dagobah. Obviously Jetrel isn't his father, but is it that he sees himself as being as much a monster as Jetrel, or that he sees Jetrel as someone hurting just as much because of his involvement? Does Neelix think he might have somehow stopped the cascade if he had reported for duty, and all those people might be alive if he hadn't been a coward? Obviously his individual contribution wouldn't have made a difference, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't feel that way. I guess you can split the difference and just take it as meaning that he's starting to see that the 2 of them aren't as different as he thought. I gushed enough about the consequences scene in my take. I don't know how Kim filmed that, but given the close up angles, I wonder if she had 2 cameras rolling and filmed both Sloyan and Phillips' performances at the same time during the monologue. Probably not but it would be cool if that was all one take and the reactions were all in the moment vs separate takes. Either way, extremely effective and moving scene. The soundtrack was really pulling it's weight there as well. The whole "necromancy" bit of the episode does feel like something of a distraction, but it does it's job in showing how remorseful Jetrel really was. Both Ken Biller and Ethan Phillips shared the view that Neelix didn't go to Jetrel at the end to forgive him, but rather he was going to share his own shame over his cowardice during the war. It was only in the moment, seeing this man who was clearly remorseful for the harm his invention caused, who had lost everything, and who was now dying because of the weapon he created, that Neelix spontaneously decided to forgive him, and give him the gift of a moment of peace at the end of his life. I think Neelix realized that war was a very ugly affair for all involved, and that all the blame and hatred and self loathing in the world would never change what happened of bring anyone back. By forgiving Jetrel in that moment, it lets them leave the past in the past and move forward. Jetrel only had a brief time to appreciate that burden being lifted, but Neelix has most of his life left ahead of him, and as Voyager continues it's journey, he'll only get further from Rinax and the source of that trauma. The only way he can really move forward is to leave the pain behind as well. Best Voyager episode yet. Duet might be better, but only by a hair.

BN13

I think what people miss is there is a lot under the surface of his outward "obnoxious goofball" persona. It's more like a cope for him, or a mask. Kind of like how the most depressed people are the ones laughing all the time. Here, we get to see a bit of what he's truely dealing with on a daily basis that he doesn't show. As someone who gets a lot out of Star Trek from a psychology perspective, I think I'm going to find Neelix a lot more complex and interesting on this rewatch.

BN13

I think a lot of people have had their Star Trek (especially Voyager) opinions shaped by SFDebris.

Drake

this episode shows the one truth about war, that weapons of mass destructions are always used against civilians and justified by some higher means. and developing them you should always know that they will be used this way.

Spencer Loften

Not even joking when I say that Neelix is easily one of the deepest characters in the show. Even on first watch I never really understood the hate he got. Actor goes all in on the role too.

David Kirk

Well, I'm one person who likes Voyager but doesn't like the goofiness of Neelix. I'm sure there are many others like me. He was very good in this episode but almost universally annoying in others.

CarnifexRex

As a scientist myself, I do love the line that sloyan says about the desire to understand the universe and what's discovered is available and benefits everyone. Its very true. While ive not been involved in anything nearly as consequential as this, once your research gets published, its just out there for anyone to use how they wish

Loot Narsbaar

The biggest difference between this and Duet is the suspense at the end whether the experiment was going to fail or create some sort of horrible abomination and then fail

Who North America

Going into this, I said, "I remember this as a solid 'B,'" but not because of any supposed "message" (I never considered it a "message" episode), but when we got to the end of this rewatch, I found the resolution of forgiveness a high "S." Until we learn to forgive others of perceived wrongs, we never can move ahead in our own lives. Thanks for bringing me back to this episode I hadn't revisited in quite some time.

Lorne Pribbeno

Yeah, I'll say it, I don't get the Neelix hate. I get that many find him annoying and whatnot, but it doesn't really hit with me. Would speak more on it, but it might be a little spoiler-y

Imogen S

I may have my issues with Neelix, but not a single one of them is with Ethan Phillips. Dude is a terrific actor, and I'm so glad that he got the chance here to demonstrate that instead of just being relegated to the goofy side character guy at all times

Bert

He's extremely irritating. One of those people who thinks you need to loosen up/cheer up. Always butting in with dumb suggestions when the smart people are talking. And he's not actually good at any of the things he claims to be good at.

Bert

He's the most thoughtful Trek commenter out there. But even he would not tell you to take him as gospel. His opinions invite challenge rather than demanding conformity. Which puts him way ahead of many.

Doug

Funny how I just rewatched The Defector last night and I didn't notice it's the same guy here

Aaron Wells

The problem with Neelix isn't Ethan Philips. The problem is the existence of a goofy, cartoony, over the top, comic relief character on the show at all. It doesn't fit. TOS didn't need a cartoon character. TNG didn't either. This whole idea of a goofball character is something that encroached in a minor way with Rom on DS9, or more disappointingly, Quark. Then it went full blast on Voyager with Neelix...the real consequence of which was dragging Kes down with him, since she was actually an interesting character on her own. But from Day 1 on VOY we have...comic relief. Something to diffuse the magnitude of the actual situation. Needless, lowbrow, and with no benefit. I know its not, but it smacks of insipid millennial humor. And I say that as a millennial. Neelix was fine in this episode....though I question the need to assassinate his character by needlessly making him a cowardly rat guilty of stolen valor. It just makes him even less likeable for no good reason.

Ken R

The problem with Neelix is he was designed for the youngest of kids. He seems to have been designed by Fischer-Price, and it doesn't take much to picture what hat he would be wearing if he was a fireman or farmer. This simplistic writing comes in what people consider the golden age of Trek. TOS never aimed so low at its audience and kids loved it just fine.

Aaron Wells

Yes exactly. They always have to try to pander to younger audiences, thus the inclusion of child characters. Or the disaster of the Starfleet Academy show. Advertisers are desperate for the youngest possible audience... And they think kids won't watch it unless there's kids on screen. As a third grader laying on the living room floor watching TNG, even I was annoyed at Wesley. I was perfectly captivated watching an old bald man try to teach a robot about Shakespeare.

parz1fa11

I'm willing to admit I was wrong.

AdmiralMurphy

As someone who hates Neelix, this episode is why exactly. It's an S tier episode and Neelix is amazing in this one. When the writers want to they can do great things with him. When they need him to be the butt of the joke though they completely change the character for it. Like episode one makes him more like a Rogue which was intriguing but other episodes make him a clueless goofball like brining snacks to the bridge or being obnoxious to go on an away mission.

GreenCauldron08

For some reason I'm finding that last scene really funny... it's like Neelix just walked in, killed Jetrel with forgiveness, and walked out. HUH?!

Forbidden Donut

This is one where I feel like it should be an S for me, yet I keep thinking B, and I'm not even sure why that is specifically. It's good, I like it, it's got a lot going for it, and yet it just isn't quite 'hitting the spot' for me.... ?

BN13

Yes, but even though SFDebris actively encouraged people to form their own opinions and not blindly agree with him, I don't think that's what most people actually did. I think there is a psychological effect with reaction channels, this one included, that creates a feeling that because someone has a channel and a following, that their opinion somehow carries more weight, or is more objectively correct in a way. That, or maybe they are just very convincing to people who were lukewarm on some ideas to begin with. Or they are just better at stating their resoning than their average viewer. I think there was a feeling that SFDebris represented the thoughts of most of the Star Trek community, which in turn created a self-fulfilling prophecy. Red Letter Media probably falls into this category as well, especially when it comes to solidifying what most people's favorite/best episodes are. Channels like that are big enough that once their ideas get out there, they have a way of becoming standard. Especially since for a long time, there wasn't really any real competition with them. So they were the only voices being heard.

BN13

I view that as anxious attachment. He acts that way most of the time because he's insecure and has deeply rooted shame that he tries to hide from others and bury within himself. A lot of what he does is actually an anxious attachment activating strategy to try and convince the crew as much as possible that he is "needed" in order to avoid being abandoned. That's also why he hides his true self. He thinks he'll be "abandoned" if people find out too much truth about him, because he's ashamed of who he actually is. Same with his relationship and jealousy with Kes. He's terrified that Kes will eventually abandon him, so he almost tries to trap her so she won't. Maybe this abandonment wound started when he lost his family? Even though when people die, they obviously didn't choose to abandon us, to the subconscious mind, it feels like they did.

BN13

I actually agree with Pillar on this episode. Yes there are obvious ties to Hiroshima and Openheimer, but it's not a direct allegory. This episode ultimately says nothing ABOUT Hiroshima and Openheimer. That's just the setting. Instead, the episode is all about the trauma on both sides that something like that creates. Not whether or not anything was right or wrong about it.

Aaron Wells

Too early in the game, bro.

Aaron Wells

Yep. It's a difficult balance but they pull it off.

Groovybaboon

Always loved Neelix. Always been frustrated at how they used his character. This is a good example of an episode that I would ordinarily love more than most, but it required IMO some buildup from previous episodes, small hints of self hatred, throwaway line here or there of the war and subjugation of his people. I don't dislike the funny quirky guy being serious, I just don't like how abrupt it feels.

Kt B

I wonder if Alex would be as intractable if he had a Kes figure to give him empathy, insight, perspective, and unconditional support. Kes seems to be the de facto ship’s counselor. Therapy’s powerful stuff, and speaking as someone who has my own remarkable turnaround, there’s healing to be had.

BN13

I've never noticed before that James Sloyan was in so many roles.

BN13

That's exactly what makes him interesting though. Like many people, that's actually a surface level cope for his own trauma wounds. He does all of that from a place of insecurity. He's a foil to the rest of the crew, and the most down to earth character because he's the only one who, like most of us, doesn't have his act together yet. He's meant to be a non-perfect character. He annoys others and pushes other people away by trying too hard to earn their approval. Which is a real thing that insecure people unknowingly do in real life; myself included.

Nolan

That's like, 3 times Alex has brought up Sam Wilson's monologue at the end of TFatWS, and I think I know why he hates it because he reads that "You need to do better!" as being directed straight towards the audience and him as a blunt call to action to fix immigration/poverty/classism etc... But I just never read that speech that way. "You need to do better!" isn't directed at US. It's towards those in power, those with the influence and capital to actually MAKE significant changes, but who, for whatever reason (money) don't. That speech wasn't about how we aren't doing enough, it's about holding those in power accountable to the people, to actually address the issues we struggle with while they hem and haw in conference rooms. And it's a story beat showing how Sam Wilson as Captain America isn't just gonna be a government pawn yes man, but someone who will fight and argue for the people, and hold that government to a standard above where they are. It's only "YOU need to do better" because that's who he happens to be talking to, but really, the speech is "THEY need to do better." IMO, of course.

Paul

I think it's directed at both. Every society has a distribution curve, those in great wealth and power, and those who aren't (almost always following an 80/20 pareto split). That imbalance appears to be baked into our species DNA. At least until we manage to achieve some form of resource abundance. Maybe AI and automation of almost all manual jobs will be the key, but time will tell on that part. Regardless of the intent of the writers though, for that specific scene, it comes off as too preachy for my own cup of tea.

Paul

I agree with the first half of this, that he didn't need to be written as such an aloof goofball. He could be quirky, but more like Quark who has incredible depth through the whole show. Neelix does too to be fair, and I think the comparison to Jar Jar in Star Wars (not from you but in the general Zeitgeist) goes way too far. I disagree that this episode assassinates his character. It's left ambiguous. The question is posed in it. Was he actually a coward? Or did he have legitimate grievances against the moral standing of the war he was being forced to fight in? Moreover, because it was conscripted, even if it was a just war on its face, that kind of involuntary servitude no matter the stakes is a grave moral blight in my view, and anyone who resists it is heroic.

BN13

I didn't think it was ambiguous at all. Just like everything else about his character, Neelix tells himself and everyone else a cover story, that to a certain extent he might even believe. But underneath it all, he knows it's a cover. So what really happened was he showed up to enlist, but once he got there he had a Red Badge of Courage moment, and got overwhelmed by fear. So he draft dodged even though he knew that the penalty for that was death. He was so ashamed of himself for doing that, that he invented the cover story (even to his own mind) that he didn't enlist because it went against his values, because that cover story is more noble that admitting that he was afraid to die. This is a tactic I used to do myself as a kid whenever I did something that I felt was too embarrassing. I'd rewrite history to others to paint myself in a better light than what actually happened because I didn't know how to process the shame. But I wouldn't condemn anyone who does this as being a "coward." I feel like most people who judge and label others like that, have no idea what situations like that actually feel like, and they assumed that they or anyone else would never run away like that. But it's easy to be a saint in paradise. This is right up there with people who have never used a gun, or been in a serious life-threatening situation, thinking that cops, or anyone else, can shoot a gun in a situation like that while having the precision and control of a super hero. It doesn't work that way. In reality, they, and a lot of other people would probably do the same thing as Neelix in that situation and run away, but they're not self-aware enough to realize it. There's nothing cowardly about having a fear of death. We all have it, it's natural to have, and it's very strong. We can label people who are able to work through that as courageous, but not everyone can do that. And i don't think it's fair to condemn those people as "cowards." They're more like the baseline, while the brave ones are exceptional. We can't all be exceptional. What it does leave ambiguous is whether or not you agree with Kes's point. Neelix risked death anyway in his case. Evading enlistment carried the death penalty if he got caught. So he would have risked death whether he enlisted or not. Maybe he did have some ideals that made him believe that dying by evasion was more noble than dying by enlisting? But whatever the reasons for his choice, he pays the price forever now for his choice. Because it wouldn't have mattered if he had enlisted. The moon was destroyed before they could do anything about it. Unless another part of Neelix's shame is if he had enlisted he would have been deployed to the moon, and only survived because he draft dodged. That would add to his guilt and shame and make him feel like he doesn't deserve to live. So anyway, I don't view this as character assassination. I think this ties right it with the already established theme of Neelix entirely; that he is the down to earth, imperfect, immature character struggling with his own insecurities. That actually makes him more similar to us than the rest of the crew. And like Neelix, we all have a lot we can learn from this crew if we allow ourselves to go on the Voyager journey.

Aaron Wells

@Paul The issue isn't that he might have been a draft dodger. The issue is that he had repeatedly so far in the show claimed to have been serving in the Talaxian military. Even claimed to be a hero at a particular battle. It's an odd lie to tell if one is morally opposed to said service. He can be a conscientious objector all he likes. I don't have a problem with that. It's the stolen valor thats offensive. They didn't need to do him that way. Neelix describes himself as a coward. He admits to spending years lying about his military service. It's not like I'm putting words in his mouth.

Imogen S

The crazy thing is that Star Trek Prodigy is literally a kids' show, and it's great! Of course that is different to shoe-horning a kid friendly character into an "adult" show (but I'd argue it counts as a family show too, seeing as I was a kid watching it in the 90s and being annoyed by Neelix), but still it demonstrates that the interested kids don't need to be talked down to, we were alresdy there! So no spoilers of course as the boys are still a long way off, but I'm looking forward to the STP reactions! I'd recommend STP to any fan that's skipped it, providing they bear in mind that Prodigy is aimed at a younger audience and don't get wound up about the sometimes simplistic lessons or resolutions, because there's actually a whole lot to enjoy about it.

The Defiant One

I forgot that this episode was good, but it was the first time I've watched it since the 90s!

Ken R

The Falcon show illustrates how well written TOS was, because they could do a show about racism or war, basically say its all kind of stupid and pointless, but not lecture or preach. What Falcon did was the writers got on their soapbox and got very specific pointing fingers at specific characters and thus members of the audience, and the whole thing came off as "woke" and therefore not able to speak to anyone in the audience who wasn't a true believer. The MCU shows came to be a lot of that, and eventually you get to She Hulk and She Hulk goes into a bad where all the men are assholes and all the women are saints. That's bad writing.

Forbidden Donut

Also, regarding Neelix as a character, I've always liked him since I first saw Voyager back in the day. Not my favorite character, but his haters are a faction I wasn't even aware existed until recently, and... I guess I just disagree. I always thought he was a solid character, and I like Ethan Phillips's portrayal of him.

Kristina Weber

Ok I'll be the person. I think it's understandable that Truman dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They spent $2 billion (in 1940s dollars so 10x in today's money) producing it. They were in this giant World War with millions of casualties. They were gonna drop it on somebody. There was never a chance that they were going to make it and not use it. Was it deserved? Hell no. If they knew what we know now, would they have done it? Maybe not. But before it had been used on anybody ever? They were gonna use it. They basically had to, strategically and politically.

Scribe31oz

I forgot how good this one was and Ethan Philips is a good actor. I liked Neelix for being anything but the stalwart, square jawed hero with impeccable gravitas that Trek seems to produce for his leads. His our lens into the world of Trek, the way Barclay is.

Some Guy

6) wall of writers

Scarpad’s Domain

Probably the best ep of s1 obviously it owes a lot to duet and the defector. If only Voyager could have maintained this level. But they have some episodes that do

Loot Narsbaar

The problem with me and this rewatch is I can't really say where I'm coming from when I complain until we are 4 or 5 seasons in and the show has established it's final groove (just like TNG did)

penoyer79

Ethan Phillips is pretty good when they aren't relegating him to the resident buffoon.

Loot Narsbaar

This is why I generally hated the Data arc in Generations. However I used to loath Rom, but the older I get the more he seems like he's just on the spectrum or whatever so he hasn't really annoyed me so far on this re-watch. I haven't seen season one of Voyager in 30 years, so the jury is still out on Neelix (although so far he's not doing himself any favors).

Loot Narsbaar

As with all things there's nothing wrong with a character like Neelix being extreme cope, the devil is in the details and how it's executed. I'm starting to empathize with Neelix on the re-watch, but that doesn't make him not as annoying as hell most of the time.

Loot Narsbaar

As much as I like this episode, a thread along this line would have hit harder, rather than Neelix stealing valor. I think Neelix stealing valor just gets in the way since it wasn't established earlier in the season.

BN13

@Aaron Wells Honestly, I think just about everything Neelix has told us about himself up to this point is actually either an exaggeration or a straight up lie. He's covering up his true self that he's ashamed of by telling everyone else, including himself, a more noble version so he doesn't have to think about it. This is also probably why he's so extraverted and outwardly cheerful. It's partly a facade. I used to do this as a kid as well. I'd hide the parts i didn't like about myself by telling everyone else a version that I felt painted me in a better light. Neelix is basically a big kid in that regard. It's easier for him to not deal with his trauma, so he never tells anyone about it, and makes up stuff to rewrite the bits of his own story that he doesn't like.

Ca$hWednesday

I rate this one highly, but I can't help but feel like this is trying to be "Duet", but without the same punch. /edit: I just got to the Patron Takes, and I see others are of the same opinion. /edit#2: fucking lul at the Chef Boyardee hat. I damn near spit my water out.

Millenial_Manc

Chakotay is such a prick sometimes. “That will be a significant detour, Captain”. Jetrel has days to live yet they get there in plenty of time. No episode otherwise so I’ll let it slide. Justice for Chakotay though… he’s like the Morn of Voyager as far as dialogue goes.

Naglfarius

Duet is for me S+. This Episode is almost as great, but something is missing, i dunno what it is. So for me it is "only" a S- *edit* by watching the discussion i got it. Kes is the reason it is not on par with Duet. The lines she said where just straight from a textbook, so even when right, i could not connect.

Naglfarius

He just hears they change course, so the concern is valid. After his answer, Janeway says why and he has no Problem with it.

Briz Braz the Wiz Waz

This is a great episode though I feel it is weakened by the twist at the end of a possible technobabble magic solution at the end. Had they succeeded it would have taken away from the emotional impact and so I spent those scenes awkwardly hoping for our heroes to fail. I think it would have been fine for him to have just been working on a cure and he lies about Nelix having it just to ensure Voyager would let him experiment their transporters.

SWOLEXX

I was so stoked to see him in Better Call Saul

BN13

I guess I just always accepted that Neelix was supposed to be the "annoying" character, especially when they play him off of Tuvok. It's like they knew that most of the audience would view him the way Tuvok did; with absolute despise. And because of that, I was never actually annoyed by him. I'm glad that we get both reactions in the show, both with Tuvok being extremely annoyed by Neelix, and Janeway understanding and showing him compassion. And yes, while I also can't stand the overbearing extroverted loosen up/cheer up people in real life who can't understand that like Tuvok, I actually DO want to be left alone, Neelix is a reminder that these people also deserve compassion just like everyone else. Also, there's Carlo Cipolla's theory of human stupidity. I think most people in real life who "butt in with dumb suggestions while the smart people are talking" actually fall into the "Stupid" quadrant. That means, these people are unknowing agents of chaos who constantly cause harm to both themselves and to others, with no problem solving ability. These people are dangerous because they think they are helping, but they are actually destructive. They don't solve problems, they create them. But I think Neelix by definition is actually in Cipolla's "intelligent" category, which is the complete opposite. He actually makes suggestions that help both himself and others, and actually solve problems, and he does it in a way that our crew would have never considered otherwise because it usually just looks annoying on the surface. For instance, his flexibility suggestion to Tuvok in The Learning Curve. Neelix is our down-to-earth character, and "loosen up" message to the crew, but the crew actually needs that message. You don't want to go full Tuvok either, and force everyone into the super serious Star Fleet box. You want a balance. And I agree that Neelix is not actually good at any of the things that he claims to be about. But where in real life, most people would be like this because of their own arrogance, Neelix does it from a place of shame. I can't really hate him for that.

Millenial_Manc

I didn’t frame that well. What I meant was that it wasn’t a “significant detour” at all. Lazy script writing. I never loved the character or Beltran’s portrayal, but it was appalling that his role in some episodes up to now was about as weighty as “Turbolift Control” on the D.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

I think I understand Voyager now. It's the same stuff already done better, but more on the nose so folks in the middle of the bell curve can appreciate the same things. And hey, there sure are more people in the middle of the bell curve, so it feels like a 'success' Neelix hates Jetrel for no good reason after the first series of expositions, is needlessly stubborn, incapable of sympathy let alone nuance, and gets left behind by the audience. But what's worse, this isn't painted as a flaw, like with Kira when she has blinders on for Gul Da Heel -- no, Neelix is written to smugly be right the entire time. Even at the end with the twist, Neelix is written to be right in step with the changing circumstances so he can continue being 'right' the entire time. Even when he reveals to Kes that he lied about his service and was a coward, Kes is written to pat him on the back and tell him he was actually super brave. Neelix is never wrong, never bad. So nothing is learned, nothing of value explored, no characters grow. F tier garbage writing rescued only by solid performances from Ethan and Co. Alex had to have his arm twisted to give Duet an S, but his? This weak rehash gets the nod? Please (genuinely) talk more about why you (both) dig Neelix and Voyager's takes on the same topics we've visited before, because I just don't get it at all.

Nemo-the-Red

I'm just going to come in here and say i love Voyager and your reactions and discussions about it. I just wanted to say that because the comment section is kind of predictably negative.

Andreas Bygdeson

I think ultimately us uncultured blue collar bell curve brutes may just not be able to appreciate art at your more refined level enough to explain why the episode makes sense and is enjoyable to us. Like how could I as someone who likes beer possibly understand what it is when sir speaks of his collection of 75+ year old vintage wines from Tuscany.

paultardspambot .

This is a great example of whats good and bad about Voyager. Voyager can do very good individual sci fi stories. This is one of them. The problem? What we learned should inform Neelix's character from hear on in. In past trek's it absolutely would. We're still early on so this isn't apparent- but even in the episodes after this.. does this change or inform Neelix? Or in other words, do the episodes with neelix in them after this work equally as well as if this never happened? This is the full problem with "the reset button." It's not just a matter of serialization vs non serialization (and obviously Voyager does have some degree of serialization) It's that something like this should majorly inform the character of neelix going forward. And it just.. doesn't. We instead have character archetypes that are used to inform the writing for any individual episode- but these chaarcters never really get developed (except for the doctor) So not only are there not real "stakes" in an given episode in terms of plot, there really arent any stakes for the characters either, which just flattens out the whole thing.

paultardspambot .

A note on "coincidences" Two things go on here. 1. You only notice "coincidences" when they happen. The majority of the time they dont happen. Since the specific paramters of the coincidence isnt defined, and a coincidence could be "anything" it is actually far more likely that at some point you will find a "coincidence" that seems odd then never experiencing that. But that's what they are- co-incidences unrelated to a cause or correlation. The human brain is good at noticing patterns. So we attribute signficance to things that statistically arent signifcant. For example, one time my mother was walking her dog, and she ran into someone who had attended school in the same town as her who was also walking her dog in the same town and had the same first name. She thought this was a weird "coincidence". But again, since no parameters are defined, of the many, many times one does anything and does not notice any weird coincidences, eventually one will have some expereince where there ae a few small factors that seem to make for an "odd coincidence" - a person living in the same town who was also walking her dog with the same first name who attended the same high school in a different town. Again, at some point, SOMETHING like that is likely to happen. Lookig individually at "what ar ethe odds this specific thing would happen?" its low but the question is actually "over the course of my life, will I at any point encounter anything where there seem to be four factors that seem as though they would be correlated but aren't?" and the answer is "almost certainly." Like those people who find an old photo of themselves as a kid at a beach outside of their town they went to for the day, and in the picture is another child who years later will turn out to be their future spouse and think it's "destiny." While the odds of that for any individual person are low, the odds SOMETHING like that eventually occurs for SOMEONE are quire high. Or the story of the two orphans from different states who never knew their birth parents, met later and bonded over both being orphans who never knew their parents, get married and years later find out they are actually brother and sister (yes, this did happen once) Again, not somethig you would think is likely to happen given one set of orphans, but given all the orphans in the world, it is eventually likely to occur. 2. The other specific thing, the phenomenon of "I had never heard of this thing and have since hearing about it encountered so many incidents of it" is partly coinicendce but partly you are noticing this phrase because you had previousl heard about it and now are primed to notice it when you didnt before.

paultardspambot .

I think he's right generallty, but not with this episode. however, what hes saying isnt just his assesment. Later on in the series, Braga and other showrunners literally said they didnt want to challenge or confuse the audience as they were doing ok and didnt want to rock the boat

paultardspambot .

" I feel it is weakened by the twist at the end of a possible technobabble magic solution at the end. " Isnt that like half of Voyager?

paultardspambot .

A guess- It makes sense for Kira as we understand and care about her character, whereas this is just given to Neelix because hes from the quadrant, and doesnt fit with anything we know about him now does it ever really come up again in terms of who the character is?

paultardspambot .

I think with Voyager, they do have some individually good episodes. The problem is the show was designed around individual episodes, not character growth or anything that had real consequences outside of the scope of the episode. With other treks, even when the individuak episode is good, getting to spend time with the characters make it watchable. When Voyageer is bad its just bad, and tonally and in terms of the reality of whats been establihed before in trek... it often feels like bad fan writing.

paultardspambot .

What do you mean "what we know now?" The reason for the bomb was never really to end the war, Japan was already deafeated. It was to send a message to the soviets. It's hard to see the deaths as justified in thoe terms, especially as we now know that Stalin wasnt actually intereested in challenging the west, they were a useful boogeyman for him an really he wanted absolute domain over the territory he controlled and made a mistake thinking that the other world leaders "understood him" on this level. because as a "gangster" when he critiqued the capitalists as "gangsters" and wrote about how western movies glorified this ethos, he actually admired them ans wanted to be like them; he didnt care at all about communism ideologically and actually pirged anyone who did.

paultardspambot .

I think a lot of people feel his introduction made him come off like Star Wars' Jar jar Binks, though that character didnt exist at the time

paultardspambot .

I think the thing is, EVERYONE says, "well given my position what power do i really have?" including those types. because lets not forget, its a system where everyone is ruled by incentives. CEOs are accountable to the board or theyll be fired. Politicians are accountable to the voters and all sort of other things besides "the greatest good." On the same line, there are things people in general do where they say "well I dont hve power" which they could do but dont. They may not have as much, but collectively it would make a difference. people can choose to not buy products from companies with exploitative practices and support only ethical companies. they can try to reduce their use of electricty. They can use less of their income on things for their personal enjoyment and give to effective charities. they could spend free time volunteering instead of amusing themselves. I feel like, to some extent, when some people say "its not me, its the people at the top" its also sort of an excuse for why they dont so those things or do more of them. The point isnt to say that everyone has equal responsibility, but the "it's not me, its someone else" or "it's the system" is a pretty common attitude that ignores that we are all part of that system and that system is us, and it is not easy to go against what the system is incentivizing you to do.

paultardspambot .

The thing is, the writers could have gone with that, but there really isnt any indication they were going for that, it more works a fan theory then something that actually seems written into the character

paultardspambot .

I don't know if this went into it, but this is reminiscent of a character from Sartre's "No Exit" where generally people are more familiar with the famous quote that came from it then the actual play "Hell is Other People." The premise for people who don't know, is three people wake up in a room/cell with and realize they are dead and in hell. They all try to argue why they don't deserve to be there, but eventually it is revealed they all maintain this facade to cover up what they actually are guilty of/feel guilty about, and these three particular people are matched up because they serve as foils for the others, where their own shadow self is forced into confrontation with the shadwo selves of the others, such that they are constantly reminded of who they really are, or who they really feel themselves to be, and cant stop tormenting each other because each's own necessary self delusion can only be maintained by conflicting with the others. its a great, deep, psychological play, and its not really about "these people deserve to be in hell" so much as how these people create their own hell by having their own necesary ego stories have to be maintained by denying the other and they cant ever stop even though they continually come tio realize they really are what they are afraid of themselves being but nevertheless are obligated by their psyches to point out the other is just as bad as them. If that wasn't an influence on this episode, I would be really surprised. I don't think memory alpha mentions it, but it sure seems that way

paultardspambot .

a lot of the problems with Voyager are "spoilery". Voyage is like the inverse of TNG and DS9. The first couple seasons were decent and showed promise, but instead of growing into its own thing, it goes off the rails and doubles down on what was already bad about the show and neglects to develop any of the interesting possibilities, so its hard to say why the season i and season 2 episodes arent great, since by grading on a curve they seem good compared to early season of TNG and DS9, but the problem is it goes downhill from there as opposed to being portents of something better to come. Of course J and A won't agree with this because they clearly just dont like DS9 or whats its doing since a big part of their thing with liking trek was diging the stabnd alone non serialized nature of it, and they're loving voyager as TNG 2.0, but my guess will be the honeymoon will wear off eventually the nth time they solve the crisis by inverting the tachyon flow and they will realize why this show is generally the least popular of this era of trek

paultardspambot .

the problem with intentionally annoying characters is its a fine line between having them annoy other characters and having them annoy the audience (the same problem when something is supposed to be "boring" in tv or movies) The other issues is they sometimes want to use him for signficant stories like this one, but the rest of the time they just have him revert to his annoying vbersion. And while your character analysis makes sense, had they gone for that more explicitly, i think it might have worked, but it feels instead like something someone has to come up with post hoc that an intentional thing written into the character. Like how I can say "well, it was meant to be a long term mission vehicle so it probablt has industrial replicators for replacing torpedos and shuttle" but they never actually say that, and the audeince has to conclude the intrepid class is the most incredible ship starfleet ever designed, light years ahead of anything else they were coming up with at the time where it doesnt require external maiantenance, never has any serious problems that need fixing at a starbase, can apparently repair itself with its nanites, easily incorporate new techs it discovers (which i think is stated as part of its things) We can buy all of this but we need the other anti-borg ships to be equally advanced. I gues you could say the defiant was also as a warship. It's just that while they could say all these things, it undermines the premise of a ship out on its own, which is paractically undermined anyway because its not fucntionally a problem for this ship or its crew despite not having a lot of its crew. yes maquios are good at improvsing but come on. And the whole "we cant replicate because we need to save power" makes zero sense, as being low on power on resources is pretty much never an issue for this ship except for the few epiodes when they want to make it an issue for the plot of the week

paultardspambot .

No, i realize why i hate Nickelback. That's a weak category of criticism. basically "I don't agree with this,so I'm going to pretend that everyone who has this opinion only has it because its popular" People employ this both for things other like and they don't like. I don't personally spend time worrying about music I don't like when there's so much music I like. but I can absolutely tell you why I am not a fan of nickelback or nu-metal in general. Of course opinions about the subjective quality are usually in the realm of the objective. I do think there are.. weaker sorts of opinions, like when they are based on not understanding something or missing something. I felt this way about the TA reaction to "The Jem"Hadar." If one doesn't understand the goal of "art" and criitcixes it for what they think its trying to accomplish or should be trying to accomplish, that criticisim misses the mark. There is criticism that is misinformed or based on perceptons that aren't accurate. But the geheral attitude "people who dont like something I like don't actually know why they dont like it, they are just saying that because other people are saying it" tends to be an extremely weak argument, especially as with music people's tatses and what they are looking for varies, and the implication that they would actually like if not for the exposure to other's opinions its bad is just wrong. Sure, that can influence someone's judgement of something, but in this case, you're just incorrect. there are plenty of people who don't like Nickelback or Nu Metal, and know why they dont like it. Furthermore, when it comes to music especially, people don't need an explainable "reason" why they don't like it for it to be true they dont. They can just not share your sense of aesthetics

paultardspambot .

I think in general, it's not that the show has bad actors, its that they are limited in the material they are given to work with.

paultardspambot .

Never heard of him. But I think there's a difference between "having your opinions formed by someone" and "having their views resonate with you." When I read Ronald's Moore criticism of Voyager, it's not that he created my opinion. Rather he did an excellent job of ariticulating something that I already felt and putting a feeling into concise words and reasons. I didn't even agree with every specific thing he said, but even where I diagreed, I agreed with the underlying reason or what he was more generaly getting at.

Aaron Wells

Wow. This sounds like something I need to look into. Right on.