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UNCUT - The Ship (DS9 S5E2) | Star Trek Journey 427 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-09-17 23:36:43
Edited:
2026-09-21 15:07:27
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StonyD

I actually agree with you both on this one. When it comes down to it, I don't know or care about Munez, and all of these experienced Starfleet professionals have been in far worse situations on a weekly basis. I was distracted by trying to understand why they were emotionally fraying at the seams. I see what the episode is trying to do. But, it just doesn't work for me.

Matchstick Jose

I think, with Star Trek, you just kind of give them the setup of characters in a Runabout that probably shouldn’t be in a Runabout. They shouldn’t ever be doing it in the Gamma Quadrant after they learned about the Dominion, and it doesn’t really make sense that two characters on Voyager are out there on their own in a shuttle far enough away from Voyager that they can get in trouble either. It’s just the easy setup so there can be an episode.

Back Flip Bet

During an away mission the red shirts are killed, because they stayed on the ship! Hah what a funny twist to the TOS model.

Bert

Just a reminder that the wormhole is the home of the Prophets. The Bajorans would very much appreciate it if they don't blow it up.

Ryan

Man, this is a weird one. It has the vibe of a low-budget bottle show, and yet a bunch of budget must have gone into it. It doesn't seem like anything really happens, and yet it makes me feel a bunch of things. I once heard Star Trek described as "gloriously boring." This is kind of that, maybe? I think this one gains immensely by taking the time at the end to ponder what just happened. I don't care about Muñez, but I care about Sisko, and watching him struggle with his crew members' deaths cements him as a person I like. In some mundane ways, this episode quietly conveys that this conflict with the Dominion sucks in a lot of ways for a lot of people. I like million-person battle scenes in the moment, but stuff like this stays with me.

River Acheron

I'm sort of between you guys. I liked it...fine. A B- which is def above par, but I didn't LOVE it. But look, here's the thing about 'The Gamma Quadrant is Always Dangerous. I gotta point out, as a TV Show, whereEVER a Starfleet vessel goes on screen in an episode is 9 times out of 10 dangerous in some way. lol. Otherwise there would be no episode. Be it Alpha Quadrant, Beta Quadrant, Gamma Quadrant or Delta Quadrant or in the rare instances we go to another galaxy. On ANY Trek show. It's rare that our crew visits anywhere where...nothing dangerous happens either large scale or small scale.

River Acheron

It's funny, the phrase I hear from newer Trek reviewers call the cliche dead "yellow shirts", I suppose because the colors shifted since TOS, so on away missions, now most of the expendables like Munoz are Yellow Shirts. Yet older Trek fans still use the phrase "Red Shirts". But reviewers like SFDebris always calls them "Yellow Shirts".

River Acheron

One negative that irks me a little is Worf. His hostility and anger seemingly came out of nowhere. Okay, so I get why, but I wish they would have built up to it a LITTLE more, maybe? Maybe some closeups of him looking frustrated or grunting the way he tends to do, while shaking his head. I dunno. Minor nit-pick.

River Acheron

Also, my nit-pick affects my B- score in no way whatsoever. Alex, just let stuff go and enjoy the ride! The hyperfocusing on meaningless little things is getting worse. Allow yourself to enjoy some television without being a "well, actually..." kinda person. I know it's not all logical or decisions you or I would do, but even in my personal life I have seen people act even LESS logical than our characters under extreme circumstances. And even if I didn't? Who cares. :)

Sam Langanke

Sorry Alex, but to critzise that the „aliens in a Tom Crruise movie“ died by themselves and not by humans, is just bonkers. The classic SciFi novel „The War of the Worlds“ by H.G .Wells the movie is based on was published in 1897! Yes, we know you give a shit about history, but history also gives a shit about ignorance.

TC Green

This feels like one I should really like, but I’m just kinda “meh” in it. The two Worf-O’Brien scenes are stand outs but otherwise.. meh.

TC Green

Their bones were crushed from the G forces from acceleration or deceleration as O’Brien explains. Basically Star Trek ships have “inertia dampeners” that keep the people onboard from being turned to pink slush every time the ship accelerates or decelerates or changes direction. The dampeners on this ship failed so when they went to warp everyone died and the changing was badly injured.

John M.

I know there was some Voyager in between, but I feel like this is the first time you guys have disagreed on two episodes in a row. What's the biggest split been? Darmok?

TalynOne

You have to understand Alex's ideal Star Trek show would be called : Star Trek: Nothing Ever Happens, Ever. It's a good thing TNG and TOS didn't have the Gamma quadrant and because of that nothing bad ever happened on those shows, ever. Honestly 9/10 bad things in TNG/Voyager could have been avoided if Picard/Janeway said, nah lets not examine this anomaly, but that wouldn't be very interesting.

TalynOne

You don't have to care about Munez to care about how it affects the characters you do care about like Sisko, O'Brien and Worf. Unless you have no empathy at all. But I can relate I couldn't care less if that annoying kid in the bonding lived or died. In fact i'd rather he die.

Philbot

This is low key my favorite episode!

River Acheron

Hmm. Your first paragraph makes a lot of sense. This episode definitely had a strange feel and vibe to it that I couldn't put my finger on, but I think you nailed it.

TalynOne

It's explained in the episode why the Jem Hadar were crushed, inertial damper failure that crushed them with extreme G-forces when the ship went to warp. Also Munez was the guy in charge and giving O'Brien assignments and ease him back into work when he came back to DS9 from Hard Time.

Jack Fletcher

I remember when I was a kid watching Trek, my head canon was that many mundane things happen on many other days off camera, but the episodes we see only are about things that happen that are exciting or significant

Oberhauser-Blofeld

I watch TA for Josh’s analysis of the episodes for obvious reasons. I don’t always agree with his take, but he’s always articulate and has good points to support his opinions on the episodes.

TalynOne

You also have to remember we only see when stuff goes wrong, because normal people don't want to watch a bunch of Star Trek episodes where they use a run-a-about in the gamma quadrant and nothing bad happens. Remember even in the Quickening that was a run-about-trip where they know the Jem Hadar are/were in the area, so why doesn't Alex hate that episode for the same reason? Objectively The Ship is more important for Federation security than a bunch of rando dying people they risked lives for. Even before The Ship they were just examining the area for mining reasons. It could very well be there was dozens or even hundreds of trips to this area of the Gamma without incident. Which is very likely true. And not just Starfleet sends ships into the area. All the races do.

Matchstick Jose

One thing I never understood in this episode: Why are the Jem'Hadar hanging from the floor? They wouldn't have been strapped in, and the inertial dampeners failing would have crushed them, not, like, embedded them in the floor, right?

Goobabies

to boldly go where we know we're safe lol

Bert (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-21 11:00 I actually largely agree with him. The show often fails to show the benefit of continuing to mess with the wormhole. That's why I responded with the bajor point. Alex's criticism deserved a good response. And I don't buy "the show has to happen" as a blanket excuse. This isn't a ragtag group of plucky rebels. This is Starfleet. They're professionals and while they're explorers, they're also scientists. They are careless for what they are supposed to be sometimes.
2026-09-18 01:38 I actually largely agree with Alex. The show often fails to show the benefit of continuing to mess with the wormhole. That's why I responded with the Bajoran point. Alex's criticism deserved a good response. And I don't buy "the show has to happen" as a blanket excuse. This isn't a ragtag group of plucky rebels. This is Starfleet. They're professionals and while they're explorers, they're also scientists. They are careless for what they are supposed to be sometimes.

I actually largely agree with Alex. The show often fails to show the benefit of continuing to mess with the wormhole. That's why I responded with the Bajoran point. Alex's criticism deserved a good response. And I don't buy "the show has to happen" as a blanket excuse. This isn't a ragtag group of plucky rebels. This is Starfleet. They're professionals and while they're explorers, they're also scientists. They are careless for what they are supposed to be sometimes.

tyranusfan

The Jem'Hadar crew died before they ever crashed. The inertial dampers failed and they were crushed by the ship's motion. (O'Brien and Dax said that when they found the bodies.)

River Acheron

I chalk it up to it looks cool :)

Kimberli Sinning

There's some great stuff coming!! This isn't my favorite episode of season 5, but it does introduce new Dominion tech and shows what it costs Sisko as Captain. Just saying, the wormhole is what put DS9 and Bajor on the map. They're not going to stop exploring. That's Starfleet.

Target Audience

I believe this would be in the same camp as Darmok as our 2 biggest different takes on an episode.

Tyler Carver

The idea that they should never go into the gamma quadrant because "it's dangerous" seems so at odds with Star Trek as a whole and the real history of humanity.

Loot Narsbaar

The Federation doesn't do genocide

Matchstick Jose

I decided to look it up in the script. “O'Brien is about to open fire on the Jem'Hadar soldier before he realizes that the soldier is already dead -- his face frozen in agony. Sisko and the others scan the room with their light beacons to discover SEVERAL OTHER DEAD JEM'HADAR SOLDIERS hanging from the ceiling, suspended by odd-looking plasma conduits that are strapped to their feet and run up to their bodies. A few OTHER JEM'HADAR SOLDIERS are sprawled on the ground -- including a female VORTA -- all with the same expression of agony.” Some interesting things here. One, that doesn’t really explain much! Two, we don’t see a dead Vorta, do we? Also, they seem to have decided on set not to do the “faces frozen in agony,” huh? Maybe they thought that would look too silly or be too hard to pull off.

Loot Narsbaar

Alex's reaction to Sisko explaining to us simpletons the point of the episode was perfect. You two being split on the episode much like the fandom is also perfect. As much as I don't think this episode works, what Sisko does here is no less stupid than Picard not separating the Enterprise to protect civilians (children) before obvious battle situations.

Loot Narsbaar

Also what Worf's Klingon ritual of watching over the body was pure bullshit (the Klingon death ritual is established in Heart of Glory) and it's very sweet of him.

Prof Moff

DS9 sex scoreboard SCORES!! sorta The sex score board Jadzia 5 Quark 5 Bashir 4 Sisko 3 Kira 3 Morn 3 Worf 2 Jake 2 Chief 1 Odo 1 Keiko 1 GUEST: Josh and Alex +1 or maybe +2 DETAILS: These crude comments do not come from the scoreboard they are from J & A. J and A both say they had explosions in their mouths so........COUNT IT!!.... Now the possible +2, we think so since they both also said they had white monsters and a graphic explanation of what happens with the white monster......(though Josh has not had one in a while so maybe not a score BUT Alex KNOWS ALL ABOUT the white monster hint hint nod nod........... sorry it has been a long time since any thing happened in either show so we are desperate to say something.

Forbidden Donut

Sisko didn't say that they were three weeks away from the wormhole. They said they were three weeks away from Dominion territory. Hardly in their backyard. (Glad you later caught yourself about them not being that far from the wormhole, though.) And I thought the bombing wasn't to flush them out, but to put pressure on them and wear them down mentally (which it did, they were starting to lose it). I can agree the 'if we'd just trusted each other' scene could have been better, but to me it still somewhat works because they're both demoralized, both tired or exhausted, and they both lost something that mattered to them.

Prof Moff

side bar... I am completely with Alex on all of the basics of this episode. It is stupid and hard to get past to enjoy the other stuff. I do not mind crazy ass stupid. Hard to when it is just stupid decision when they KNOW it is stupid to go to a planet in Gamma for....... a mining planet? WTF

Nolan

Alex, instead of thinking of the bombing as a thunderstorm, think of it as a baby, constantly crying in the background, pissing you off and getting in the way of your focus, hampering your work. THAT was the goal of it, not to get them to run out and leave.

Nolan

Also, the Dominion has jurisdiction over the entire Gamma Quadrant the same way Russia has it over Ukraine: they don't. Just because they said they did doesn't make it so. And furthermore, The Federation isn't just gonna let this expansionist empire spread on the other side if the galaxy, growing in power until that empire decides they're gonna attack and the Federation is overwhelmed. The Federation also isn't gonna leave every civilization on the other side of the wormhole to get overrun and subjugated by the Dominion either, not when they have evidence of their genocidal intent. Not going through the wormhole is sticking fingers in ears and hoping the problem goes away. Even if you blast the Wormhole closed, the Dominion will STILL be coming, and countless people will suffer in that time. Now, you and I may not be ones to jump in and get involved in an injustice, but Starfleet IS. It's why they exist.

Patric Flück

The innertial dampeners are the g-force canceling tech in Star Trek. Frankly, some of the writers use them too freely when they need something recognizable to break. Not this time. They save the crew from being thrown around or outright ground to paste by gravity when the ship accelerates, breaks or turns. When the IDs fail, shit gets real quickly. That is what killed the Jem'Hadar and mortally wounded the Founder in that ship.

Derek Locke

Really? Wow... I loved this episode. 1. They weren't 3 weeks away from the wormhole. 2. They explained what killed the Jem Hadar right after they discovered their bodies, and it doesn't take that big of a leap to see how the Founder was injured in the crash and died from its injuries and from holding it's shape for too long without regenerating. 3. They weren't bombing to force them out, they were just rattling them, and it was working. This is all stuff that was spoon fed in the episode, I'm not sure how you could miss it.

Derek Locke

You'd think anyone who's watched the previous 425 episodes of Trek across 5 series as well as 7 feature films wouldn't have to have that explained to them!

Derek Locke

I always interpreted this ritual as something that takes place after the death ritual. They love their rituals after all.

Derek Locke

I don't think they need triggering by us to be contrarion!

reactive1

The 100th episode of TNG was “Redemption, Part One”.

Derek Locke

Oh, I didn't think so. This fell right in line with him I think. Think of Crusher and Picard trying to talk him into saving that Romulan, or him killing Duras. He's Klingon to the core and this illustrated that.

Nolan

Y'know when you go up or down an elevator, you feel that push or pull at first as it gets going? That's inertia. The greater that take off speed, the greater the inertia. Now imagine you're in a ship that takes off at even a fraction of lightspeed. You'd get thrown backwards into the wall, shattering every bone in your body and inflicting heaven knows what kinds of other types of physical trauma to your body. That's why they talk about inertial dampeners - why when those dampeners go out in battle our crew bounce around in their chairs like that, and why everyone on that ship was dead. Because they pressed the wrong button on the elevator.

KingPin124

Ya, just becuase they yell at the sky once to warn the gatekeeper at Sto'Vo'Kor that a warrior is coming does not mean that they would never sit with a body while the spirit "makes the long journey to Sto'Vo'Kor" as Worf clearly says. Your post is the pure bullshit.

Sunny

Huh, I actually do enjoy this one. We get to see the characters under stress and actually showing the negative traits of their personalities. The waste of it all is frustrating and reminds me of the classes we took in law school for mediation - everyone could have gotten what they really wanted except they couldn’t negotiate or communicate properly. Plus new vorta 🤷🏽‍♀️ I dunno, I like it

KingPin124

Sometimes I think that Alex is watching a different episode.

KingPin124

Watch RoboCop 2, Lol!

Steve Syme

My response to Alex's criticism: 1. I think most of the time they go to the Gamma Quadrant, nothing bad happens. We just don't see that because 'nothing happens' doesn't make a good episode. Some dialogue here establishes the Dominion is actually a little ways away from the wormhole, not at it's doorstep. 2. The shoot around the ship because they can't attack the ship. It's pure psychological. The key point is that the vorta/jem'hadar are also stuck. They shoot around the ship because they can't think of a better strategy. Negotiations failed and they're just as unsure of what to do as our main characters. I agree the Moral Of The Story was a bit heavy-handed but didn't detract too much. A-tier for me. Thank you, Josh, for defending the episode. Thank you both for your thoughts.

Sykonee

This episode's saving grace does remain the double-denouement, but yeah, is a bit of a reach to get there.

KingPin124

Josh, I really appreciate you standing your ground on this one and offering Alex every single olive branch to chime in a update his reaction. I do NOT want to pick on Alex, but I still need to say some things. I think Alex will like this series more on a second watch. TRUST the writers a little bit more. Small example is "Half a Life" from TNG where he rated it mid on a first watch and was shocked that he didn't give it an S-tier after a rewatch. You miss A LOT the first time on these. We all do!! There's a ton of lines and little explanations that you miss or get wrong the first run and that gives you this list of things you don't like. We're all yelling at the screen saying "They explained that!". What I'm saying is, just try to enjoy the damn ride, man. Other shit: 1) I'm glad you noticed that you got the 3 week/3 days things mixed up. That's what I'm talking about and thank you for mentioning that. 2) Remember the scene in The Expanse where The Ring shows up and that guys speeds into it and gets splatted like a bug on a windshield? THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED to the crew on this ship, but splatting them all into blood jam is too graphic for this show, so they just said (all their bones are broken or whatever). O'brien said they were all dead before the ship crashed. 3) According to Alex, being stuck in a trench or a bunker and having artillery shells or bombs being dropped around you for days on end is the same as being curled up in a comfy bed during a thunder storm. Seriously, man? You need to learn a lot more about this topic, becuase that was just embarrassing. 4) Josh gets it. They're going into the wormhole becuase they're making a TV show. If you didn't want them to encounter danger, they should have saying on Earth and never started a damn Federation of Planets at all. Oh wait, Earth has danger too! Every episode of TOS and TNG they got into some bullshit and encountered all kinds of danger without a wormhole. That's really a bad excuse, man. There's a bunch of other things I could mention. I had a whole list in my head, but some other have mentioned things in the comments and I've had a long day.

Scott Woodward

I definitely have mixed feelings on this episode. I feel like a good attempt at straining emotions between the crew but there are better episodes that do it. Also a good effort to make a minor character’s death mean a bit more than usual but didn’t quite hit the way it should have (needed to be more established than a couple minor interactions in previous episodes). But overall I think it’s a good tension builder just not the top of the list for episodes that try to depict the characters under pressure

KingPin124

I feel like it's also worth mentioning that the Vorta chick with the big cans hanging out could probably negotiate me into all sorts of things. I'm aware of my weakness.

Loot Narsbaar

My interpretation of “dispose of it as wish, it is just an empty shell” would not cover a wake.

Trillhouse

Look, I'm always open to new POVs and takes on episodes, but if the thought process is going to be "heading into the Gamma quadrant willingly is stupid", then that really is at odds with the entire concept of the show and you're going to be in for a bad time. They even put in a throwaway line that they are "three weeks away from any Dominion outpost" so presumably they think they are safe (not that it should even matter because that's not the point of the episode). Also as a reminder, the crew didn't go into the Gamma Quadrant in the Quickening to "save those people". They were on some random survey elsewhere and picked up a distress signal. So if we're being consistent with the argument, then that episode should be equally as "stupid" and ridiculous as this one.

TalynOne

I agree with Acheron it felt like the writer wanted to insert those stringent Klingon ideas about death and create conflict with O'Brien but didn't know Worf wouldn't react that way. This isn't a transplant from the Klingon Empire, this was a man who grew up with humans his entire life. Worf acted the way with Romulans with the blood transfer because of prejudice and early days before his experiences fleshed out his attitudes. Heck the way he spared his own brother has shown he doesn't even feel so strict about Klingon death rituals with even his own brother. This is the man who spared Duras's son, was convinced not kill himself when he was crippled and mourned many human collogues from Tasha to Sito to many others.

Jaymison Boeker

Probably the zero sleep the dude gets every night.

Neil

Starting to wonder if Alex doesn't need a break from Star Trek, it seems he isn't liking any episode at the moment. What show would Deep Space 9 be if they never went through the worm hole. Also as has been pointed out before the Worm Hole is the home of the Bajoran's gods. Starfleet wants Bajor in the Federation, how likely would that be if Sisko and his crew killed their gods??

Better Watch Trek

I always loved this episode. The upsidedown ship setting, all interactions between our main characters, the score and direction and the Chief

Altariel

It's important to keep in mind that not everything in the Gamma Quadrant is Dominion space. Sisko said they are 3 weeks away from the nearest Dominion outpost, and the Vorta said they are outside of Dominion space. So it's not like they are going deliberately into enemy territory. Saying they should stop exploring space in the Gamma Quadrant is like saying the Enterprise under Kirk or Picard not to explore space because Klingons or Romulans are out there. The criticism that they didn't go there with the Defiant but with a runaboutnis absolutely valid though.

Worf and Riker Ride Again

I like this episode, but I disagree in that fact that I think it could have been executed a bit better. The pacing is a little bit slow and there's too much jumping between scenes, I swear the Chief has at like 5 separate conversations with Muniz about him not going to die etc. I still think it's an A/B though. Totally agree with Alex though about sending Runabouts into the Gamma Quadrant. The Federation still has tons of space to explore, mine, colonise etc but they choose to send 3 senior officers and 5 crew across the galaxy near to enemy space, just to mine some ore?! Strategically, this makes no sense, even Worf says it's extremely difficult.

paultardspambot .

right. And I think the questions there asking are worth being asked. Keep in mind the founders have already infiltrated the alpha quadrant. But remember in the simulation from the search, they WOULD blow it up as a last case emergency measure.

paultardspambot .

my response above- the federation is responding to a group that is an existential threat and this situation just kind of happened. Also keep in mind Sisko's role as the emissary. The emissary being the onw to destroy the wormhole would have major consequences for Bajor. I think you have to understand their position that an obviously hostile group didn't formally request or notify them about their territory but basically went to war with them. There are no relations. There isn't straight out war but the Dominion has maintained their position any ship going through the wormhole is fair game

paultardspambot .

So i really love this and I thought you guys would. Honestly I think (Alex?) went into this one in a cynical mood and never gave it a chance. The thing is, you have to be invested and open to it and its very effective. But I'm bought into these chaarcters, the Dominion, the whole thing and I understand the value of the ship. The Federation can analyze thier technology, weapons, etc. The ships seemed like something most Alpha Quadrant skips can barely tackle in the way they come in attack groups. The Defiant can hold its own at best but the point is in terms of the meaning of that part for the federation, yes, the value of the find to the security of the federation is absolutely worth it. I understand your general argument about the gamma quadrant but I think youre supposed to be questioning this- they literally had a whole simulation to highlight they would do this, so that's something in the background. Generally it was just so clear you were in the mood where you were going to sigh and roll your eyes metaphorically at everything because you're on a negativety trip. When you think about it this episode has everything you want, seeing our characters and their dynamics in a new situation. The firing was to rattle them, not kill them and it was working. The hope was to make the situation bad enough Sisko would consider accepting her terms because at that point the offer of the ship was genuine. Her initial priotiy was to take both but the life of a founder takes precedence over anything. You also didnt seem to get why the founder was hurt. Remembe rthe inertail damopening failure and all the bones being crushed thing? The Founder survived but was badly hurt. We were pointed out to something moving through the walls. At the end it was hiding as a piece of the ship waiting for rescue, and the vorta became more desperate as she was in mpre of rush to get the founder and treat them. Absolutely she's manipulative and evil and Sisko has no time for that vorta charm. But it turned out the last offer was genuine. and trading a founder for the ship is absolutely worth it. So at the end, he afterword, hes more focused on the absurdity of it all and the deaths and whether it was worse it and hes commenting how they both could hjave acheived their objectives had they manage to establish somne kind of trust, but you cant with the Dominion. I feel like this is another case of not understanding what the wepisode is going for. IT supposed to feel claustrophobic wth building tension and atmospheric which is hard to go with if youre cracking jokes about movies and what you focus on which seems to be your own... its like, the show now doesnt start from neutral, its has to wow you after youve already gone in pissed off, and you wont enjoy good episodes like that one because you want.. apparently more procedural mundane super realistic depictions, where a crew doesn't have adventures and just do normal planteray services and repairs equipment and escorts deals and represents the federation in negotiation. Thats never what star trek was, and though TNG could do quiet life in the enterprise episodes, thts not what everybody wants. Its just a shame cause I know how enjoyable this can be if you're invested and grokking it, which you're missing out on because of being overly cynical when you get into certain moods.

Erik L Jerks

This one ranks pretty high on my list. I've always loved the interactions between everyone when things get tense and how Sisko gets everyone back in line. Muniez's struggle and death absolutely work for me. He's no Ensign Sito, but I wouldn't put him far behind. Plus it heavily features Dax as everyone's best friend. She's the emotional bedrock of that team. I may be in the minority, but it's S-Tier for me.

paultardspambot .

OK- they cant use energy weapons because they could hurt the founder. They also cant risk for starfleet to use energy weapons. and large scale persence in such cramped ship is seriously risky for people with swords and for the founder tehy are trying to rescue who they figure would hide as part of the ship- so they could shoot it because it could be anything and they cant recgonize it unless it changes and they know its hurt because of the crash. The inertial dampener failure was what caused the crash. We don't know what caused that but even dominion ships can run into space phenomenon or something that mess up their engines. We dont know why they were all the way out here, maybe they were on the tail of the runaboit because they probablu monited the wormhole and wanted to follow sisko at distance. The situation makes perfect sense and was easy to follow, your just so annoyed and complaining you werent paying attention or talking over and you misunderstand the setup and details I thought they were xtremely obvious and again the shelling is to rattle them in the hopes sisko will consider the deal or they slip up or something because theyre running out of time and options, they know the founder is in bad shape. and is in hiding.

Carl Williams

I’m cutting Alex some slack on this one for a few reasons 1. This has always been a love-it-or-hate-it episode. For some people it really resonates and for others it simply doesn’t click and the nitpicky minutiae gets magnified. If anyone listens to Garrett Wang and Robert Duncan McNeill’s podcast going through their first watch of DS9, I believe McNeill called this the WORST episode to date. So YMMV is an understatement with this one specifically. 2. This season is an outlier in that unlike previous seasons that start with slam-bang no-holds-barred streaks of top tier quality right out of the gate and then have some slumps, this season has sort of a slow burn/impulse power start before ending in what almost feels like a different series (again). Seriously, the changes this season are mind-blowing and it’s hard not to want them to be loving this season right out of the gate, but honestly it is just not that great a start to the season relatively, as we’re used to complete shakeups in season openers on this show, and season 5 feels uncharacteristically status quo- at first. As we wish Alex would have a bit more trust in the writers, I will have trust that his mouth will be so agape from this season’s twists and turns he won’t even be able to eat his words!

paultardspambot .

I loved the performance f the vorta, her subtle shifts and the Munoz thing, it was set up as a kind of male "we can only relate in jokes and its abit corny and overstreteched but if you buy into it really can make the dynamics emotionally charged. Again, when youre invested there's a belief in the situation, the stakes, the struggles of these people. Worf is not the same guy he was on TNG. We know he "felt like a warriori from the old days" guy and loved his job. He's now questioning himself and his beliefs but you also have to keep in mond his idealized sense of klingon culture is like if your read captian america strips in the USSR and that was what you thought america was like and were all in. He clearly has been more emotionally conflicted as he chose this assignment for Sisko's request and because he needs an experienced starfleet tactical officer. Burt he's very much on his own journey of self discovery as he doesn't have thst feeling when he was on the enterprise. And this is an absolutely critical mission that looks like you have almost no chance of surviving and the noise and heat and horror and the extreme difficulty of trying to get a ship they know nothing about running and trying to find something when they dont know what they're looking for is an incredibly taxing situation even for experienced starfleet officers. This isn't the flagship crew. They are NOT the perfect starfleet officers. it's a collection of oddballs and misfits. They are still starleet. Yes, if it was Picard in command it wouldnt have gone down that way. But Sisko is still learning how to be a Captain, he isnt Picard level yet, and I think it makes him interesting as a huge arc here is Sisko's journey through the series where he "comes back to life" and finds himself in an incredibly important assignment. I think the details of depth and the character development that underminds this and realizing how important the stakes are, this would be like the US during WW2 or leading up to their entry, captured a full intact U-Boat. Given the Dominion technology is not understood and more advanced then the federation, this is really huge because up to this point, there's been no real chance starfleet could handle a Dominion invasion or do anything really is the Dominion tried to overpower them. Thats why the station has been so massively upgraded into a top equipped space fortress from where it was in the first two seasons. Sisko doesnt belive her for a minute, hes just sizing up the situation in going out to talk to her and see what he can learn. By the way Alex, what if Sisko were prejudiced against the Vorta? If he thought they were just total weasels who just blow hot air all the time to throw you off.

paultardspambot .

There isn't supposed to be any mystery. the ship had an engine failure and crashed. The inertial dampeners (whats stops people from falling with the momentum changes of the ship) failed. The ship survived the crash but the jemhadar had their bones pulverized. The founders arent really gods. It survived but was badly hurt. AS far as what the ship was doing, maybe trailing the runabout to see what it was up to as I'm sure The Dominion has the wormhole surveilled. Its not supposed to be mysterious. They literally told you what happened and you can conclude the founder was badly hurt from the same thing.

paultardspambot .

Yes, the female Vorta was trying a more feminine softer approach. I found her a really interesting character, genuinely "alien" like the Dominion members have been

paultardspambot .

they have deep arcs they have been setting up and investing in, they're not just going to drop the gamma quadrant and dominion plots entirely at this point, that would be such a weird direction.

paultardspambot .

But you see it as a failed arc and the show runners realy didnt. And the fans dont and didnt

paultardspambot .

For a lot of us. "The Jem'Hadar is where the show really levealed up and brining in that huge threat where its not just a run down station guarding a wormhole that has trave aspects out on the frontier. This station becomes the most important location in the galaxy for the federation.

paultardspambot .

its supposed to be forecast and how O'Brien only knows that way to relate to him emotionally, cracking wise, it goes from being a bit goofy to soemthing they're using to keep his spirits up.... Yes, I knew exactly what they were doing as well.. I guess I knew guys like that, who were always busting each others ballas as a way to show friendship, and they're trying to do it to normalize the situation.... I felt there were actually layers of subtely to that in their back and forth and How meaney slightly changed his "bad acting" over time. Chief is the classic blue collar giuy, he doesnt really know what he can do for Munoz so he keeps this up. When you say you guys didn't remember Munoz... When there was a discussion about DS9's great cast of secondary characters, I mentioned (yeah even the really minor ones Like Munoz who is the chief's assistant whose been in a couple.), sure it wasnt something you rememberd but they did try to ast least build him up a littl bit in previous epsides as not just another guy. As far as the Benzite, in the previous epsiodes a Klingon mentioning killong a benzite capitain by "pulling out his breathing tubes" so they have some oher tech thats filtering their air which sounds like its internal.

Derek Locke

Well it would be silly to think that all Klingons hold the same religious views wouldn't it? Kind of like assuming all humans have the same religious practices. Not even remotely true!

Derek Locke

Yeah.. I'll be honest, it's getting to be a little taxing to watch along with him. No one wants to see something they love shit on all the time!

Derek Locke

I don't know, maybe I'm more empathetic than some, but Munez's death did hit me and I think it would have even if I hadn't seen him in any previous episodes. It's obvious the crew is invested in him and has feelings for him so I can easily do the same.

Neil

I didn't mean it like that exactly, if he's not enjoying then he should say so but I am surprised he disliked this so much. It has the stuff he loves, The Chief, interactions between the crew, Worf and Chief falling out I am suprised he wasn't postive about that side of it. Just surprised me that he disliked it, its not one of the best episodes certainly but there are a lot of good things in it.

paultardspambot .

he fact the changeling is so badly hurt is the plot point. You're suggesting totally different episodes. Also the Vorta was hot

paultardspambot .

yeah, he just gets in bad moods sometimes over what I think a lot of us see as trivial opinions. I think the reality is he just doesn't really care for this show and its concept.

River Acheron

I just can't really follow Alex's logic any longer. I can't take options or criticisms seriously if they are based on tiny nit-picky stuff, or worse....based on his mood (which is obvious on camera) before even going into the episode. I do find myself skipping to Josh, who's opinion I respect 100% even when I disagree with it. And maybe I'm really reading into it too much, but Josh seems to be having trouble understanding Alex's negativity which was more clear than ever in the post episode discussion.

paultardspambot .

and they cant risk using energy weapons OR having starfleet use energy weapons. A larger grouo is definitely get responded with by phaser fire.

paultardspambot .

i I thought "great stuff is coming" before the jem'hadar and many other episodes they've hated. Alex just doesn't like the big arc stuff period

River Acheron

I said this before; Josh really digs this show. Alex doesn't like it. Nothing we say will change Alex's mind at this point. I went thru this with friends. After I first binged the series during covid, I showed my then-boyfriend and other friends and some just can't stand it, while others, like me, adored it. Some ended up loving Voyager of all shows! I learned then that you cannot change anyone's minds.

River Acheron

!9000% this! I wish I could like this post TWICE

River Acheron

YAS! I don't even begin to understand his point about the wormhole or Gamma Quadrant. I am honestly perplexed at that.

River Acheron

Also, I don't mind if Alex shits on it. In fact I wish he would come out and say, "I just really don't like this show" because clearly he doesn't. And that's cool! His reasons for disliking episode by episode by episode make ZERO sense to me, so much that I cannot even follow his lines of reasoning any longer and I will also say that his nit-picks are getting worse.

paultardspambot .

there's a lot of establishing shots and the plot points go relatively quickly to make time for the ending. They are definitely trying to build up the atmopshere heavily with this one

Ryan

You’re right, that’s what it is. They’re creating the mood. Showing how it feels to be caught in this weird Cold War situation.

Matchstick Jose

Gene Roddenberry came to set to cut the cake for the occasion.

Laura Thornley

Lots of engagement this episode. Yup.

Paul

Do you recall what Robert's critiques of the episode were? Calling it the worst to date, including Move Along Home is... it's a wild take.

Paul

It makes sense if they can't find the ore anywhere else. Not sure if that was mentioned or not.

Briz Braz the Wiz Waz

Throughout the years I've been along with you both on this journey I've been given new appreciation for episodes I didn't like and new critiques of cherished episode. Only recently has it felt like one or both of you were primed against an episode, not giving it a chance. If this episode was changed by giving the antagonists a different name, different forehead bumps and a vaguely referenced history of conflict with the Federation would your reactions have been the same? I know I can't argue you into enjoying something and it is up to the show itself to be good or not but I do believe the way we approach experiences matters. There is still so much more amazing Star Trek out there for you, I'd hate to see your experience marred by it becoming a slog. Maybe a break is warranted (a short break please, I'd miss you guys). I wonder if compressing decades of content into a few years is impacting your enjoyment of it. Live long and prosper.

Paul

Same. No need to send in the Jem'Hadar. I'm just a man after all.

Paul

Exactly. What gives a person or government dominion over territory anyways? Practically it's might makes right but ethically, that's much harder to answer. But in my boat, just because the Dominion have a lot of soldiers and ships and are willing to use violence, doesn't mean they get to legitimately claim the entire quadrant.

Paul

"To BOLDLY go where no one has gone before!" As Q also told Picard, there's treasures out there both wondrous and gross, but it's not for the timid or faint of heart... Humanity as a collective is a race of explorers. It's embedded into our souls. The desire to see what's beyond the horizon. What's at the top of those white peaks. Hell, we navigated through the treacherous Drake passage centuries ago in little wooden ships! We're crazy. Is going through the wormhole risky, absolutely. Is it what Starfleet MUST DO because of the very nature of who they are? Yup. If you cannot accept that basic premise, it does make it hard to buy into some of the initial plots.

Matchstick Jose

I know some are ready to be recruited into the Dominion by the Vorta, but let me just counterpoint with Dax in this episode. My goodness.

Loot Narsbaar

Yeah but Star Trek, not real life

Carl Williams

Trying to go back to their quick recap at the end, sorry it was actually Garrett who said it was the worst episode. Basically nothing landed for him, the Chief/Muniz thing wasn’t set up well, they also didn’t understand why the Jem’Hadar didn’t go into the ship and overwhelm the crew. Sounds like there was just a lot of nitpicks and nothing executed well enough for them to look past them. Sounds like they had a lot of issues but I didn’t relisten to the whole thing

Trillhouse

I agree. Honestly, I have a lot of respect for how consistently they pump out content, but I can imagine that it must be exhausting. It's great that they can make this their full time gig now, but the last thing I want is for them to start feeling like it's a Job. If they decided to slow down the pace or take a break, I'd still support them.

Sam Langanke

Alex needs a break from being Alex. His temper tantrums have nothing to do with any Trek episode. If this goes on like this I am out of here.

Coach Mac

I agree. Not sure I want to continue watching him shred it. You can tell if he’ll like an episode before it starts if he’s in a bad mood. Seams like he’s looking for negative. I love this episode.

River Acheron

To be fair, Josh loved this episode and disagreed with Alex and even the reasons WHY Alex didn't like it and genuinely seemed as baffled by him as we are.

River Acheron

I stay for Josh because he actually taught me a thing or two and appreciating things I personally had bias against. I definitely value his criticisms and he seems to give it a lot of thought. As far as Alex goes, I hate to say this, but I am starting to fast foward his parts. I'll stay subbed but I just can't really take his opinions seriously. I feel bad for the guy, and he seems like he may be going thru stuff. I dunno. It's not my place. I can only say what I see and hear on camera. if a month-long break is needed so he can regroup then maybe that's what he needs. Burnout is absolutely real.

Evan Guthrie

There are some bad episode slogs in DS9. If episodes like these aren't doing it for Alex then I don't know how he's going to survive lol.

Deliximus

As the Vorta said, this is the biggest Starfleet Intelligence find in long time. Yes it is.... I'll leave it at that. Freaking A+ ep

Coach Mac

And spend money to do it

Matthew Ganz

You don't need to empathize with Muniz the character to appreciate the trauma you must feel when severely injured or facing a terrible illness. You don't need to know his entire backstory to observe how chief's affections towards him versus Worf's ritualistic interpretation bears out a conflict that engulfs the whole crew. With Sisko trying to keep everyone focused. These are people marooned under attack in a high stress situation, they've already suffered losses and are now dealing with a hostile enemy force while one of their own barely hangs on. I think you both lend too much weight towards setup and then gloss over the outstanding moments within the episode(s). The show that tells us to "Bodly Go" and "Seek Out New Life and New Civilization" can't be about nothing happening. Starfleet operates in space, and as Q tells us in TNG: "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." The deafening silence when they realize Muniz has perished and how Sisko rallies them back towards their task. The fundamental lesson about how trust (or in this case mistrust) can lead you down the wrong path. Sisko and Chief's coda scenes with Worf joining in as a way to button up the conflict -- these are the great moments of this episode and some of the most powerful of the show.

James H

So you’re saying vaping is an existential threat?

agatha

DS9 fans are such babies omg “I can’t deal with Alex anymore he doesn’t like what I like” lmao why are you here then? the boys are allowed to like or dislike an episode just the same as we do

Colby

This was a solid eight coming in, but the show tried to squeeze out a ten from it that wasn't there and soured the juice.

StonyD

You got me. I have no empathy at all. LOL No man, I just didn't connect with him or their reactions to "Ensign Smith" in this episode. I didn't know the character enough to care. It's right down to the writing. Lower Decks connected because the writing made you care about the Bajoran officer (and also she had pre-existing character motive set up in her first appearance). But then, Ashley Judd's character Ensign Lefler appeared a couple of times, and I don't care about her. So, it's down to the writing.

Scott Woodward

So I'm supposed to lack empathy because the writers used the old trek cliche of killing off the red/gold shirt and the attempts to humanize the character fell flat for me? I resent the implication.

Call ‘Em Greg

Alex: we don’t need constant in-episode reminders of plot points and details. Also Alex: misses details. But we still love him!

River Acheron

For the people saying "Alex has every right to hate this show". Yeah. Exactly! The issues people have is Alex is being less than honest. Come out and say, "I dont like deep space 9. Fuck I would love that. lol. It would be funny, interesting, contrast, etc". Its not ABOUT that. It's about his individual reasons for ragging on episode are not valid because its excuses and not honest and no one can follow his line of reasoning. He looks and acts angry before something even happens, he doesn't wanna be doing this, and it shows and were picking up on it. I think thats the issue. Hell, I know it is. I don't see evidence of any person having an issue if Alex was a DS9 Hater. How cool of a duel reaction would that be, being that i'm pretty sure Josh loves the show (mostly). It would make for a great reaction and discussion. So no, I don't want Alex to like it. I want him to admit the truth.

River Acheron

its the most embarrassing thing Alex ever said. I am younger than them and I get Trek more than him.

Sam Langanke

Burnout from what? As far Josh teils us he and his wife do all the work.

Loot Narsbaar

I guess what’s cool is, intended or not, there’s enough room for interpretation where either could be true

Loot Narsbaar

Which makes Sisko explaining the entire episode to us even more frustrating!

Gaming The Systems

The reason the bones are broken is explained in the episode. Inertial dampeners failed.

Gaming The Systems

There's already ships going to the gamma quadrant all the time. The reason the mission became dangerous is because they went toward the crashed ship. Remember, they didn't know what kind of ship it was, so wanted to render assistance.

River Acheron

Fatigue from watching the same thing all the time. When I binged on my own I had to take breaks for a while here and there. This is true with even a favorite show they're really invested in.

River Acheron

Yes and that's not even technobabble. It does as described. It dampens the inertia. When it fails, inertia has an ugly way of splat-splat 🫟

Neil

Guys, when I commented the last thing I wanted or expected was a "Bash Alex" session. It would be normal for someone to get a bit fed up of a show after so long watching it so regularly. Remember, when we were watching it (if on release) it was every week and then months between series. Even if watching it after release with the repeats we could take breaks. Maybe Alex just doesn't enjoy these shows as much as TOS or TNG and that's nothing to bash him for. I just wondered if a break would help. I did not want it to become bashing Alex!!! Lets just hope some upcoming episodes get his mojo back.....

Summer

The first time I watched I binged in DVD in a month then immediately watched again

Loot Narsbaar

Member when Q put the Enterprise in the path of a Borg Cube? I guess they should have just gone home back in the pilot when he ordered them to.

Paul

Yup! Far safer. Just chill at home. Plop a cover over the ships.

Loot Narsbaar

It's fine he doesn't like the episode. I don't like the episode! But arguing there shouldn't be exploration in Star Trek is plain silly.

agatha

I do agree with that yeah

StealthMomo

I mean, if he wants Star Trek: Nothing Ever Happens, he's got Voyager. Stuff HAPPENS in Voyager, but the overall status quo barely changes throughout the entire run of the series. At least in DS 9 stuff HAPPENS. Large and significant changes for the characters positions, relationships, and circumstances.

Mina Haroun

Alex, The defiant never lost its cloak, it was just damaged for that 1 battle in way of the warrior and they couldn't use it for rest of the episode. They can only use it in Gamma Quadrant and they haven't really needed it since way of the warrior. Space is big... Normally doing a quick survey mission in a tiny runabout a very safe distance from Dominion Space isnt an issue. The odds of running into dominion soo far from their Space or even in their space is very low. They were just unlucky that a SHIP with a VIP crashed on the planet they were on. Jemahadar were killed when inertial dampners failed. They say it in the episode that the speed/turbulence of the ship crushed their bones. However, that wouldn't kill a Founder. I've always assumed he was injured from an explosion or radiation. That is why he couldnt just leave , he was too injured. Some say he was found because he had to revert to liquid form. I dont think experienced changelings have to do that. Only odo has to revert, ive never seen any founders claim that they had to revert. Finally, the ship is valuable because they can study it and learn how to fight the dominion. Etc.etc.

Mina Haroun

They couldnt risk sending more jemhadar, even if they are armed with Melle weapons, the federation with their phasers can accidentally shoot and kill the founder. This is a very important episode, they finally have a Dominian ship to study. Up until now they dominion have kicked their ass every time. Now they can study this ship for weaknesses.

Mina Haroun

This episode does have lots of plot holes .... why didn't the Dominion just transport them out. They needed a throw away line about jamming transport out but they can still transport in. Sisqo doesn't ask for medical equipment when negotiating with vorta. What happened to that alien creman's body ? Needed a throw away line about that along with "They took/destroyed medical equipment " off his body. Finally last episode mentioned benzanite having a breathing tube now. That 1 klingon was bragging about killing the benzanite captain by breaking his breathing tube.

paultardspambot .

and "existential threat" may be overused in the real world but here it means that most of what we see starfleet deal with isn't a threat to the existence of the federation. You have the Romulans but Starfleet can fight back

paultardspambot .

what I liked when they reviewed TNG was the stuff I didnt pay attention to- the csmera craft and them noticing when people were reading from a teleprompter. That was interesting because it wasnt something I normally paid attention to. I'd like to see them get back to more of that

paultardspambot .

I feel like some serialized shows work better with binging. Twin Peaks comes to mind

Mr Moxie

I'm pretty sure the aerial bombardment was just meant to be really loud and annoying. They were trying to annoy the crew into surrendering, not lure them out. I think the whole premise of the script was they were trapped in this ship and pushed to their breaking point. I'm guessing in the script itself it implied the bombardment was constant and extremely loud, but then when it came time to film/edit they realized that having it super loud was too annoying for the viewers so they made it less loud which made its purpose less clear.

paultardspambot .

Josh will point out he doesnt like a certain type of episode and be straight up with that

Mr Moxie

I think the wormhole criticism is like going to a crime-heavy part of town. Like sure, go there if you have a good reason, but it would be kinda annoying to watch a show where somebody went to crime town and then surprise pikachu'd face when they got robbed. In other words, I kinda agree that one should be careful, and maybe not mess around in the gamma quadrant without good reason. The counterpoint to that is that 1. Startfleet are still explorers and 2. They do have a line in the episode how like this planet seems to have really good rocks or whatever, which Alex might have missed. Going to danger planet might be worth it if danger planet has good rocks, I guess.

paultardspambot .

I feel like Worf in DS9 is very different from Worf in TNG. In TNG he is where he wants to be. In DS9 hes questioning everything about his life and his own identity

paultardspambot .

that was where alex liked it but josh didn't if I recall correctly?

Mr Moxie

@River people are allowed their perspectives. I think it's a bit much to pull a "I get it, he doesn't, he should be embarrassed." I think Alex is coming at it from a mentality of it can be annoying to watch shows where people go to "fuck around and find out"-village and then they fuck around and then they're shocked when bad things happen. That, indeed, can be annoying. So I get that perspective, but ultimately Starfleet are explorers and so to want them to turtle and hide on earth or even DS9 is admittedly missing the point a bit. I think it's too much to say Alex's perspective is "wrong", but it might be better to say that "that hoping for turtling is likely going to lead to unhelpful expectations." My guess though is it's more of a mood/vibe thing. Alex probably won't have this frustration for the next gamma quadrant related episode that does work for him.

Mr Moxie

To be fair, I'd prefer a "star trek: nothing ever happens" to a "star trek: things only happen because our protagonists are dumb". I am with him insofar as it can be annoying when they take dumb risks or they screw up avoidable outcomes. But he does go a bit too far kinda implying that the entire gamma quadrant should likely be avoided just to be safe.

paultardspambot .

I think they mentioned they buried the bodies. You're right, I hadn't thought of the "transport them out and kill them" idea. I guess I'll have to headcanon it that Dominion ships don't allow you to transport people out but they could transport in.

Mr Moxie

I didn't realize they let you post images in your patreon comments, how'd you do that?

paultardspambot .

I guess the answer there is they were tangled with plasma conduits

John M.

A vs D, yeah

Matchstick Jose

I had to install the mobile app. I assume it's a new feature on there since I only noticed pics popping up in people's posts a few days ago.

paultardspambot .

So there seems to be a lot of comment here and in the previous episode of people being frustrated with Alex. This is not to dump on Alex but I was thinking a bit more after reading some people's responses to old comments and I think maybe I have a hunch whats going on here. The thing is, I think people were getting frustrated by him starting out in a bad mood and then getting hung up on what many saw as trivial and kind of not really giving the episode a chance. But this has kind of been in line with stuff that I think people have been seeing for a while now. And thinking about it, I have a guess and sort of suggestion. Reposted- My honest guess here is he never liked DS9 because he liked trek for the fact it wasnt serialized which is something he seems to dislike about more modern shows. He was still in for Voyager but now that he feels Voyager had a weak season 3 start, he's worrying that the complaints about Voyager were accurate and he's now going to have two shows he doesn't like and feels frustrated. After all, he's said (or expressed in some way) he doesn't like.... 1. Big Arc plots. 2. The Dominion, which he's been soured on ever since their introduction in "The Jem'hadar" because he wanted the whole episode to just be a camping trip 3. "First contact" episodes which he defines pretty broadly but to him seems to involve any cultural misunderstandings or prime directive stuff 4. Bajoran politics episodes 5. Emissary episodes 6. Mirror universe episodes 7. Ferengi epsidoes 8. Gamma Quadrant Episodes In practice that means not liking DS9 because those categories constitute a signficant percentage of the episodes. I think when TNG was ending he was in a bad mood, and ironically when he shat on the Jem'hadar for reasons I thought were weird nitpitcks where he didn't get things, I feel like he's been soured on DS9. And more for both of them, I don't think they really get what DS9 is fully going for, the way the Emissry plot line and the Bajoran stuff connects with say Past tense and the general themes of the show about imperfect people trying to defend utopian ideals in an imperfect world and what it takes to do that when you aren't already in utopia. A clear contrast to TNG. He's also complained "star trek could be anything" when talking about DS9 which I think speaks to a desire for a show where you go to a planet, deal with its problems, then go off and the next episode is a clean slate. Unlike DS9 where it's much more about using the world built in the previous treks and taking that universe seriously as a place where things happen and have long term consequences that matter. In fact, going deeper, maybe thats the central problem. He loved TNG and DS9 in many ways is sort of the anti-thesis. I feel like for the people who loved Voyager and hated TNG, in many ways its because Voyager tried to be TNG 2.0. So his frustation maybe is with DS9 as a concept, being disappointed that it's not trek as he likes it, and frustarted with that. But not necessarily consciously and maybe sort of insisting thats not the case because there are episodes he does like but he wishes they would scrap what a lot of the show is (as in how he sort of referred to the Dominion as a "failed arc" they should move on from or that he wants to move on from which is not in accordance with how the majority of the fans feel), and often when you have a frustration you can't articulate, or a sort of cognitive contradiction where you feel you have to insist, no, he doesn't not like it, he has his own idea of potential with good characters but hatesor dislikes most of the setup. And that kind of cognitiv dissonance adds to the frustration. It's a bit like having a significant other, where you insist that you love her and want to be with her, but criticize a lot of her personality and what she does (and has an idea, well, I like you, but when you're like this, and could you just be that way all the time and get rid of all the things I find irritating about you) where she feels that you're being nitpicky and too critical and how you'll get in moods where she can "do no right" but insist that's not the case and you really do love her, you're just trying to say she could be better. I mean, no not really, because that would be super toxic as far as a relationship with a person goes, and this is just a relationship to a tv show. BUT, as has been discussed, there is also the aspect of a "parasocial relationship" so maybe some of the disappointment expressed here is bleeding that stuff in. I think what can also get missed, and this part of internet media social dynamics, is often complaints or issues brought up are done so in "snarky way" which leads people to get defensive or perceive hostiltiy (because often hostility is inherent in snark and thatsa kind of internet problem across the board) But the key thing is people who have been here like the channel, and enjoy the content. And a major reason is because TA doesn't just do the glowy "I love everything" kind of reviews/reactions and give their honest opinion, which makes it feel more intersting. Like you know someone actually enjoys something when they're consistently honest. But that's a bit different then writing off major aspects of a show or sort of pre-commiting to being frustrated for what a show is versus what you want it to be. Not in terms of quality, but in terms of premises and core elements. Maybe if Alex kind of acknowledged this (not to us) but just accepted it as far as what was frustra ting him, recognizing the roots of that frustration maybe would help with being less annoyed by what a lot of us see as "the small things" And I think, like I have seen suggested here, that awareness could lead to an interesting interaction- where he sort of admits he's not a fan of what this show generally does but also sees it can have some specifically high caliber episodes- so going in with that mentality, we get a review/reaction from a skeptic and from someone a bit more bought in. When they talk about redoing it as it was, this in a way would reflect the initial fan reactions at the time, because you both had people who loved it and a group who hated how different it was from previous trek. DS9 didnt really get its cult status during its initial run. It was after it had been in syndication for awhile. Anyway, this is jut a suggetion, so Alex could have a better time and the TA audience could feel less frustrated at time and what can feel like the mood Alex starts with will determine how he reacts. I don't think a break would make a huge difference, because I don't think it's the core issue. And it's not like most of this isnt stuff Alex hasn't said. I think that acknowledging he doesn't really care for a lot of the show's choices and coming in with that perspective would not only help in terms of the dynamic of two different views, but his expectations would be lowered so maybe he could be caught by surprise. I think the reality is, without spoiling, the show from here on, which many people feel is the best of it, more and more leans into those elements that Alex doesn't care for, and knowing that and everyone knowing that would lead to a better review show rather then maybe Alex getting annoyed witht the direction it goes as many feel like its hitting all time highs for trek.

Cranky Grandma

I agree one of the posters above, that Alex might like some of these more on second viewing; that happens to many of us. But dang people are allowed to like or dislike whatever. I’ve found an otherwise good story off putting because of something that seems just there for plot, or something that causes me not to suspend disbelief. And as good as an episode is, that will taint it for me. Everyone can like what they want (except “Up the Long Ladder” on TNG. Everyone must hate that one. That’s my line in the sand😛). I welcome Alex’s honest viewpoint. I don’t know if I’d bother Patreoning folks who just gush positive all the time. These guys like some and dislike others and I’m here for the ride.

Cranky Grandma

I agree. I feel like maybe it’s gone from a joy to a slog. I love your reactions, guys, whether they agree with me or not. But I’m staying on patreon even if you cut back a bit. Do what you *enjoy*

Collin Freeman (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-23 08:00 Totally agree with Josh on the assessment of this episode. Great direction, some great scenes on the ship between our crewmembers, and some great moments of acting, especially from Avery Brooks (who can be disappointing to me in some instances) and in the final scene with Colm Meany and Michael Dorn. And I do agree the delivery of the "trust" line from Avery Brooks was too heavy-handed and more to his over-the-top acting approach. But yes, this is the show: we need to get on board with the Gamma Quadrant/wormhole situation, or we will not like it, period. You have buy in to the fact for tension and conflict, these types of situations are going to be more of the norm. A+ for me.
2026-09-20 20:42 Totally agree with Josh on the assessment of this episode. Great direction, some great scenes on the ship between our crewmembers, and some great moments of acting, especially from Avery Brooks (who can be disappointing to me in some instances) and in the final scene with Colm Meany and Michael Dorn. And I do agree the delivery of the "trust" line from Avery Brooks was too heavy-handed and more to his over-the-top acting approach. But yes, this is the show: we need to get on board with the Gamma Quadrant/wormhole situation, or we will not like it, period. You have to buy in to the fact for tension and conflict, these types of situations are going to be more of the norm. A+ for me.

Totally agree with Josh on the assessment of this episode. Great direction, some great scenes on the ship between our crewmembers, and some great moments of acting, especially from Avery Brooks (who can be disappointing to me in some instances) and in the final scene with Colm Meany and Michael Dorn. And I do agree the delivery of the "trust" line from Avery Brooks was too heavy-handed and more to his over-the-top acting approach. But yes, this is the show: we need to get on board with the Gamma Quadrant/wormhole situation, or we will not like it, period. You have to buy in to the fact for tension and conflict, these types of situations are going to be more of the norm. A+ for me.

Matchstick Jose

I don't think I ever realized how in his bag Jonathan West was on this one. I love how dark he was willing to go with this sequence, even barely illuminating Avery as he's delivering dialogue.

Tim Nikiforovs

Regarding burying 30 bodies so fast, that was before the runabout was destroyed. Realistically they probably just dragged them outside, took DNA reading, and had the runabout beam them underground.

River Acheron

its the future. They have faster ways. Hell they could probably transport the bodies underground. I didn't see this as an issue. They're not grunting over a 21st century shovel and hoe. Even if its not transport, they can phaser the ground to make insta-hole. Again, there's no time issue.

River Acheron

Yas! To rattle them. Thats all it was

River Acheron

I dont understand why some people are lumping Josh in this? He was arguing with Alex about it lol

JRandolph

Also, we KNOW the Dominion is working to influence and conquer the Alpha quadrant (e.g., Martok). Should the Federation just ignore that and say "We'll just stay on our side of the wormhole and hope they get tired of messing with us" instead of going thru it?

Darin Wagner

I do love the camaraderie between the enlisted personnel (Chief and Muñiz). We don't see that too often.

Paul

I think you raise good points but I would counter, that it's deeper than just serialization. As Alex has said he's enjoyed Severance and Andor, both highly serialized "long movies" in effect.

Paul

Eh, I binged the entirety of Trek 2 decades ago in a few months. I never got bored. If anything, my excitement increased day by day.

Paul

Almost any real science is technobabble to people who don't understand it. No shame, some people just aren't interested in physics. Most people actually.

Joe J

I was entertained enough with the episode, so solid B-tier for me.

Neil

Yes but we are all different

Avaria

I suspect that, even if Klingon death rites are viewed as a monoculture, they have contextual nuances that have evolved over time. A "Klingon mummification glyph" (ST:IV) already coexists with "Dispose of it as you wish; it is just an empty shell." (TNG Heart of Glory) In the same way that Klingons supposedly killed their gods but simultaneously have a vibrant mythos regarding the afterlife. It's not too much of a stretch to believe that within certain contexts, where the time and space were available to do so, that Klingons would have a rite similar to a wake. It could also just be empathetic gibberish on Worf's part (I sometimes think he gets too much credit for being an unfailing authority on what is and isn't Klingon), but even if that's the case it shows strong cultural competency, since wakes are an important part of Irish death rites.

Avaria

Delta Flyers is so much fun; highly recommend. Garret and Robbie are first-time viewers and are sometimes surprised by even their own show. They watched all of Voyager together and are now watching DS9 with backup from Terry Farrell and Armin Shimmerman. The original poetry synopses (and Armin's breakdowns of the episode titles) are a highlight. It's a good week to join in as they'll be talking about one of DS9's most iconic episodes this week. Beware of spoilers -- they're about a season and a half ahead of TA and the occasional bit of future talk (especially about VOY) slips out.

Avaria

Slightly amazed that no one seems yet to have thrown the classic "Risk is our business! That's what this starship's all about! That's why we're aboard her!" into the mix to appeal to their love of TOS.

iFixSAN

Look. I know we had a bit of a disagreement the other day, but don’t let that sour this advice. If possible, take a mental-health day or two (or week). Burnout signs are bubbling to the surface.

Naglfarius

A-tier. Really great episode. I loved the cinematography at the beginning, especially the flickering lights and the unusual camera angles. Combined with the dark lighting, it created a really interesting atmosphere. The ending was strong as well. The landing was handled really well, and the whole reveal once the Vorta and the Founder die and everything gets explained was a great payoff. Suddenly, a lot of things make much more sense. And then there's that great final moment with Worf and O'Brien reconciling and standing watch together. A really strong finish. There was a little too much acting from Muniz but not enough to really bother me. Overall, a very, very solid episode and definitely A-tier for me.

Lovok

What's silly about Alex's complaint is that the crew, I think Jadzia, outright SAID the orbital bombardment was just to "rattle" them. It was no secret. I was baffled when Alex kept talking about luring them out. Felt like he was making up an issue to justify complaining about the episode. Or he's just so checked out on DS9 that he's not even paying attention to the dialogue anymore. :/

valen

I understand Alex's annoyances but there are so many and far stupider illogical shit they pull in nuTrek or in some other series like game of thrones that the small points he makes here feel like nothing. Years later when he has a rewatch of this episode, he'll feel different.

Loot Narsbaar

Another plot hole to me at least is a runabout tops out at warp 5 (so maybe a cruising speed of Warp 4), where the Defiant tops out at a bit past Warp 9, so if the Defiant floors it they should be the where Sisko is in more like several hours instead of days. Maybe you argue they don’t know the crew is under siege and they aren’t traveling at high warp, but if they were smart they’d be trying to execute the salvage mission the fastest they possibly can.

Loot Narsbaar

But then again it seems like runabouts can travel at high warp when the plot demands

Ricky

Here is some perspective. Watching from a healthcare professional point of view, 95% of the medical side of things in Star Trek is absurdly wrong. There are so many times that I COULD say this is completely wrong and choose to dislike the episode and be taken out of the enjoyment of it all. However, I understand the storytelling of the episodes. I understand what they are trying to do medically. I understand the ethical point they are trying to make even though it would be inappropriate in a medical setting. The episode was written with a particular story the writers wanted to tell. From there, I would claim that it is how the episode is "executed" that should determine its quality, instead of getting hung up on the minutia of realism. No one should be using Star Trek to learn and critique military tactics, politics, diplomacy, or medical practices. What Star Trek does give us is a vehicle to think about fundamental life lessons.

Gavin Hewitt

Is this another Alex gets pissed and sulks again episode?

Sic Coyote

Thing is, The Transporter breaks pretty much everything, so you just have to ignore plot holes involving that.

Ken R

This was okay, but BSG borrowed the idea and did it a hundred times better. I am trying to remember, I think I thought the dying guy's situation was scrubbed clean and bloodless to make it palatable for kids. This was like "It's not bad" but I don't think I would recommend it.

Mark Plemmons

Don't worry, Alex - season 5 episode 3 is where the show really starts! 😅

Lovok

Alex said it was worth it in "The Quickening" because they saved a bunch of people. It's posited by Dax at the end that the recovery of this ship has the potential to save tens of thousands if not millions of lives. We'll have to wait and see if this is paid off later *on screen*, but even if not it's likely this intelligence find will result in many lives saved. Another nitpick by Alex blown way out of proportion. Same goes with Alex not having any comprehension of what it means for the Dominion to hold the Founders as "gods," and the lengths they'll go to protect even one Founder. Makes *complete sense* from their perspective. Kudos to Josh for pushing back on Alex on some of his nonsense lately.

Sic Coyote

I'm seeing a pattern, Josh likes the more serious Continuing plot episodes, while Alex seems to enjoy the episodic more fun episodes.

Sic Coyote

"Boob lady"? I had to go back to check, I mean she does have a little bit of cleavage but I think I'd need much more than that to be calling her Boob Lady.

EnigmaticPenguin

Not saying this is a classic or anything, but I’m finding Alex’s thought process harder to follow lately. It’s his opinion, so that’s cool. It just feels like switch flipped in his head near the end of last seasons.

The Defiant One

In other episodes of the show it's mentioned that ships from the Alpha Quadrant go through the Wormhole all the time. Not all of then run into the Dominion. If we're following our main characters into the Wornhole isn't it obvious something is going to go wrong. It's no different than Picard and Janeway investigating some random space stuff.

Imogen S

She was hilarious on The 7th Rule talking about that, apparently they really went to town with tape and stuff to drag some cleavage out of her, she was elated to have boobs for a little while 😂

Malamute

Who pissed in Alex's Wheaties today? :-D Great episode.

Captkirc

Took me over 30 years to figure out what inertial dampeners do but I finally got it from watching this episode a few years ago. Basically think of your car going warp 5 then stopping short. The dampeners keep the passengers from flying through the windshield. Them failing is why the Jem’Hadar crew have every bone in their bodies shattered.

Greg Quinn

The "bombing" was basically the dominion trying to psychologically rattle them. It is shown to be effective by how they start "infighting" thats all real stuff. I realize these guys aren't students of history of warfare and psychology, but its kinda rough when they are so sure that a action is "dumb" because they don't know about its real world existence.

Scarpad’s Domain

This was a fantastic episode , Muniz is there to show off the cost of war on our characters. Every character gets to shine. And Alex is well I just will leave it at that. Yes let’s blow up the wormhole, that doesn’t belong to them , makes sense. War is costly that’s why it’s a thing to be avoided. I’m fine with someone that doesn’t like the series, or an episode if they can back up their feelings with anything other than inane nit pics. Maybe is Sisko fought a clown Alex would be happy. Can we let Alex go watch wrestling vids and get someone that actually wants to be there please

Scarpad’s Domain

Well Alex thought it was a weapon or event horizon demons because he doesn’t pay attention to

Scarpad’s Domain

Yeah he comes out and says it right in the beginning it’s been great then displays the total opposite throughout. He does say he’s not into these types of episodes well buddy going forward you aren’t going to Like a lot

Scarpad’s Domain

It requires empathy something Past Tense demonstrated they ain’t got

Sic Coyote

I don't know about Alex and Josh's views on alcohol, but I know when I watched DS9 first time I would always sit down with a Whiskey and coke before starting. Smooths off the edges.

Scarpad’s Domain

When the reaction starts with all the reasons why they could hate it, one being Voyager S3 ep3??? And then slagging on Nick Meyer you know your in trouble

Ragnarok

Do we, though.

Lovok

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross, but it's not for the timid." -Q ("Q Who") Why go out in space and explore ANYTHING, according to Alex? It's too dangerous! Let's scrap all the Trek shows because "something could go wrong!"

arojay

To boldly stay at home, because it's too dangerous out there.

Justin Webb

Josh and Alex certainly like to set themselves up for disappointment beforehand

STEMBOB

Let's have Josh reacts , Alex just puts a downer on every episode.

Goobabies

Jeez - some of these comments are crazy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion - especially on a first watch where some things will inevitably be missed when trying to react. Also, no-one is in a great mood all the time so it's natural that sometimes we will be more receptive than others. We all do this but we're not putting ourselves on camera at set times so we can watch when we feel like it. The guys watch when they can so yeah, their mood might change from day to day. Everyone needs to calm down

Lovok

Can you tell us when Alex has been in a GOOD mood while watching DS9 lately? Aside from two episodes in the last, say, 15 or so? Alex has been coming in sour on almost every episode for a long while now. No shock people are noticing.

River Acheron

Beer for me, but you're point stands lol

Lovok

Yes. Even Josh seemed a bit perplexed by Alex's 'mountains out of molehills' complaints.

International Man of Leisure

As retired military, I can say I recognized more commanding officers being more Sisko-like than Picard-like.

Tim Nikiforovs

"Hell they could probably transport the bodies underground." Yeah, that's what I said

captveg

I get what Alex is saying, but it's a TV show. One must assume that there are dozens, maybe hundreds of missions through the wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant that don't have conflict, but we don't see them because there's no story when there's no conflict. Of course an issue happens in the episode because the story by its nature is an upheaval of normal circumstances. Now, could the show sell that more in some dialogue or some other way? Sure. But is it really all that different if we have O'Brien say something like "55 missions so far and things have run smoothly before now"? I don't think it would move the needle that much.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

Imagine if the Dominion and the Federation signed a treaty where they stay on their side, and the Federation stays on their side. You know, diplomacy. But way back in the season two finale the Dominion delivered an in person ultimatum telling them to stay on their side of the Galaxy, and Dax just yaps back that nothing is going to stop the Federation from doing whatever the hell it likes. It's mind boggling. I really can't fault the Dominion much, the Federation has shown no respect for their sovereignty, undermines their alliances and treaties, and just stole their technology/ship.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

In the Season Two finale the Dominion delivers an in person demand that the Federation respect their borders and stay on their side of the anomaly. Do you honestly feel that was unreasonable? That the Federation should have the right to go wherever the hell they like even when another sovereign powers tells them not to? Boldly go, sure. Ignore borders and sovereign claims? I don't know about that.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

What a bad take. So (A) the Federation are the 'good guys' and that means they can do no wrong, therefore they get to rule over the entire galaxy and dictate who gets to expand where and when?? And (B) the Dominion can't claim sovereignty over the space on the other side of the wormhole? This is more akin to Russia 'exploring' the waters off the east coast of the US and putting missiles in Cuba. No. Just no. You stay on your side of the world, and we stay on our side. That's how peace is achieved. What the hell is the Federation thinking?? Even if you think you're right, clearly the Dominion disagrees. They have a different value system and see the exploration as an existential threat. They get the final vote on how to interpret your actions. If you refuse to find common ground and negotiate terms conflict is inevitable.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

These takes are weird. They are allowed to not like the things that you do. They aren't "tired" and if only they were rested they'd agree with you on everything.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

Worf calls it an 'old' Klingon tradition. One that might not be adhered any longer as beliefs on the transition to Sto'vo'kor has changed over time.

Jonathan Llyr

Didn’t have this episode causing such a commotion on my bingo card. Most of what I’d say has been said elsewhere so I’ll just say that I think this is a fantastic episode conceptually and in execution. And I think Avery Brooks did an excellent job selling the fact that the lack of trust was the cause of all the carnage. Great performances all around.

Tim Nikiforovs

The dominion doesn't own the whole gamma quadrant. You can't just say "dibs" without any means to protect and settle territory, otherwise any rando species could call dibs on the whole galaxy, and NOBODY is going to respect that. They were 3 weeks away from the nearest dominion outpost. If it's unclaimed space they have every right to be there.

Lovok

Nailed it! I'd be totally okay if Alex just came out and said he didn't like the show very much. Just be honest -- that's a big reason we like these reactors. In their S4 recap video Alex made it seem like he was still into the show, but when you see the discussions after the episodes, the majority of S4 and now starting S5 has been "just fine" at best. "Just fine" communicates a "C" to me, which is "meh/okay" but in no way "good."

Lovok

A lot of times I find Alex peer pressures Josh into liking episodes less than he initially seems to. But all credit to Josh this time: he really pushed back on Alex and seemed a little perplexed at his ridiculous complaints on this one.

Lovok

Alex clearly hasn't liked DS9 at large lately. He's not being honest about that (e.g. see the S4 recap video). It's not about an ep every now and then. He's been sour on DS9 for a while and won't own up to the trend. I'd be totally fine if he just came out and admitted it. It has just gotten tiring that almost every DS9 reaction is Alex pissing all over the episode for the most ridiculous and nitpicky reasons, a lot of which have clear and reasonable explanations within the very same episode.

Tyler Carver

@Maxwell According to Ronald D. Moore: "The Dominion does not own the entire Gamma Quadrant. We had explored the GQ for two years before encountering the Dominion, so it's not as though the wormhole opens up in their living room. There are other races in the GQ that are not part of the Dominion and the Ferengi at least have established trade with some of them. When the Dominion told us to stay out of GQ, it was if China told the US to stay out of the Yellow Sea. China is the big boy in this neck of the woods, and you better take their warning seriously, but at the same time we have trading partners and allies there and hey, freedom of the seas and all that."

Todd

Alex opened his mouth and he was immediately wrong. They weren't in Dominion territory. That was "3 weeks away" as per dialog in the episode. After reading some of the other patron comments, I'll skip the rest of the review. Glad Josh said something initially.

Lovok

To be fair, "Past Tense Pt. 1" is legit really preachy TV-special stuff at times. I personally think Pt. 2 is actually pretty good though.

River Acheron

To say that the Federation should stay away from one quarter of the entire galaxy? That's unrealistic and unreasonable. The Dominion has no claim to 1/4th of the Milky Way lol.

Tim Nikiforovs

We also don't know how long the runabout took to get there IIRC. Might have taken a few days longer but they were calculating based on the speed of the starships that would be mining the planet

MartyMc

To stick with known life, and your own civilization. To meekly stay where everyone has been.

Rylee

The Idea of the bombing wasn't to get everyone to run out of the ship into death it was to stress them to their breaking point till they surrender.

sword bard

I know there's definitely all sorts of lore out there about Benzites and the different types of breathing tech we see, but I like to think maybe that one guy we first saw who had the vape thing on his face wasn't doing it for species-specific reasons at all, he's got the internal filter tech that the later Benzites have but he just personally has a skin condition or something and has to wear this annoying thing to humidify his face for medical reasons. It would be like if the first human seen by aliens happened to wear glasses and then ever afterward whenever they see one without glasses they're all coming up with complicated cultural explanations for why not.

Ryan Roach

It’s going to be a rough three seasons if Alex gets upset every time the Federation goes into the gamma quadrant. Sorry for the “spoiler”.

Tim Nikiforovs

It's not a matter of just having a different opinion. Hating Stubbs or Twain is an opinion, not liking Past Tense's preachiness is an opinion. The bulk of Alex's criticisms were for things the episode DIDN'T DO. Thinking they were trying to make the crew run outside into the bombardment is a fiction existing entirely in his head. That was classic suppressive fire. The whole war of the worlds theory when the reason for the dead jem'hadar and wounded changeling was clearly explained. About the only real opinion is that Muniz story didn't work for them. Fair enough. Pretty much every other criticism of the episode was just factually untrue.

Tony Lamb

Alex, you are why we can't have nice things...we find the ONLY stable wormhole in the entire galaxy and you want to blow it up.

Naglfarius

yeah it started as a joke, and now it is really serious for him. ^^ well at least we others can have fun with the Story.

BN13

I feel like Alex is getting a lot of undeserved hate here. I never got the impression that he hates the show, as others have said. He just watches it differently than you, and enjoys different things about it. For this episode in particular, i think half of his dislike came from there being things in the episode that he either missed or didn't understand. These are the things that others pointed out like the inertial dampener failure killing the crew of the ship, the whole point of the bombs was never to convince them to come out and fight, and you wouldn't take the defiant on a routine mineral survey on an unimportant planet that's 3 weeks away from the nearest Dominion outpost. Before the ship crashed, this was considered to be a very low risk situation with very high gain from the mineral deposits. But Alex also has legit points that most of us just dismiss. For one thing, the bombing was kind of useless. Yes it rattled the crew a little, but there was never any real tension from the bombs because you knew they'd never blow up the ship. They were never really a threat other than being loud. This was especially the case for me because when I first saw this episode, i figured out that they wanted the changeling pretty early on because that's the one thing they wouldn't risk destroying. This issue is further heightend because in just a few episodes from now, bombs like this are used in a MUCH more effective way that DOES make you feel like things are at stake. This episode fails at that. And yes, they absolutely could have sent a bunch of Jem'Hadar soldiers in with hand to hand combat without hurting the founder. Actually, now that i think of it, they probably avoided that because they didn't want the Starfleet crew using phaser fire that could have accidentally hit the changeling. And yes, we as fans accept that the Gamma Quadrant and the wormhole are important because we buy into this world, and we understand that this is a long game where you don't just bury your head in the sand and hope the enemy never comes after you. But to people who don't just blindly accept that whole philosophy, or think of things in terms of long term strategy, the show doesn't do a good job of spelling out exactly why the wormhole is important, or why they are still exploring there. I can understand it being a meme. It's like all the people who think in Lord of the Rings that you can just fly the eagles to Mordor. Fans know why you can't, but a lot of people are going to think that's a major plothole unless you take a scene or two to address that issue head on. DS9 probably should have done that more in its early seasons. I'm also in the middle in terms of my enjoyment of this episode. As a kid, I didn't understand manipulation, so I couldn't understand why Sisko didn't just blindly trust the Vorta to go in and get the changeling. Problem solved. This made me hate the ending of "no one would have died if we had just trusted each other" even more, because I completely agreed and saw the whole thing as completely avoidable. Now that I'm older though, I can see why things were never that simple. The ending is tragic now, but that line is still a bit on the nose. I also don't care for this Vorta at all. She has no personality, and there is nothing unique about her. She's also not handling this situation well at all, and she's ultimately a very forgettable character. I also don't get emotionally invested in this one. I like everything with Sisko, and everything between Worf and O'Brien, but I never bought into all of the Munez scenes. So the episode kind of feels flat overall. Other than all of that though, I'm in between Josh and Alex. This episode has some great stuff in it, but I feel like the execution could have been a little better. I like it, but don't love it. Probably a high B for me. It's a good episode, but it's ultimately kind of forgettable.

Derek Locke

That's the kind of detail I go out of my way to not nitpick over. I find it a lot easier to just enjoy the story they are telling if I don't obsess over distances and warp speeds. It'll take days, got it. Let's get on with the story now. I'm not saying those details aren't important to everyone, just for me, I don't let them derail my enjoyment of the show.

BN13

Can you tell me when he's been in a BAD mood? I never got the vibe that his mood ever had anything to do with his episode interpretations. Maybe he just cares about different stuff than you do?

Roy J.

I feel like the "They explained that!" may also come from the fact they have to talk during the watch to make it 'transformative'. I've had a lot of those moments where I roll my eyes or yell that they've missed some plot point because the reactor was either talking over it or in case with 2 reactors they were not looking at the screen and talking to each other trying to figure something out that was just explained. I understand it's Alex's opinion but more and more I'm becoming cynical when it comes to his reactions. Like he's 'upset' with how the plot is delivered or how something is being over-explained as if the audience is full of halfwits (I agree with him on that for 50%) and immediately zones out and just has his mind made up for the rest of the episode. Also each episode is roughly 45 minutes and a (loosely) contained story so the plot has to be made clear in some quick way.

Roy J.

Add to that the Federation doesn't own the wormhole, it was technically claimed by Bajor. It is also their Celestial Temple and they won't collapse it just willynilly. Plus Dominion territory is still far from the wormhole; they don't own all of the Gamma quadrant. I get his point but the wormhole is an integral part of the show and opens the door to a new part of the galaxy with a lot of story potential; just how Voyager is in the Delta quadrant.

Roy J.

To me it seems every episode has to be top A or S tier otherwise it doesn't resonate with him. When he says the episode was fine it comes with a clear hint of dislike. As if every episode needs to be groundbreaking and cannot be just something fun. DS9 has 25-26 episodes per season at 7 seasons, they can't all be top tier plots, there has to be filler and fun to flesh out the universe and backstories more. Modern shows lack this, to their own detriment. I get you want a lean steak without any fat on it, but fat has flavor. "This is all stuff that was spoon fed in the episode, I'm not sure how you could miss it." - and usually they're upset when something gets spoonfed to them yet now they missed it...

Roy J.

To be fair, that is the risk of watching any reaction. An echochamber is comforting but I doubt reaction channels were as much of a thing if they never voiced any criticism or differing opinions. When the opinion sides with the majority it can be very uplifting to have a new fan to the franchise but there's always the chance it won't resonate.

Drake

there is a reason this episode has a 8/10 rating xD if you hate on it in the start and then are mad the whole episode then ... well you not giving it a chance alex xD they literally spoon fed exposition in this episode to the point i get angry with the show of thinking i am stupid, and then you still managed to miss it all xD

Drake

its not three weeks away from the wormhole its 3 weeks away from any dominion space there are hundrets of ships going trough the wormhole doing business with nothing happening, thats just not what we see cause its boring xD we see the few times it goes bad doesnt mean it always goes bad xD

Mullinsky

I think a lot of people look at Runabouts as shuttles. They are capable ships that are meant for longer trips without having to send a huge starship and massive crew. Before the Dominion the Runabouts were the only ships assigned to DS9 which is out of the way on the outskirts of the Federation. They were built for Deep Space Exploration.

Mullinsky

So I am a few days late on this and I have not posted any comments since TNG. First I want to make the point that I think many people confuse Runabouts as Shuttle Craft when they are actually very capable ships built to bridge the gap between a Star Ship and a Shuttle. DS9 is very much on the outskirts of Federation space so sending Star Ships out to the Gama Quadrant is not practical and that is why the show started with Runabouts only. Yes they have the Defiant but its main purpose is to defend the station so taking it on a multi-week journey away from the station is also not practical. Then you have to consider that the Federation lost a ton of ships during the battle with the Borg at Wolf 359. Here is what it says online about their intended purpose... "Runabout ships (primarily the Danube-class) in Star Trek were built as multi-purpose, heavy-duty auxiliary craft to bridge the operational gap between a standard shuttlecraft and a full-sized starship. Providing deep-space transport for personnel and diplomatic missions over longer ranges and durations (up to a week or more) than typical small shuttles. My second comment is about the latest trend with TA. For me watching Star Trek with Josh and Alex is an opportunity to rewatch and enjoy the shows vicariously with two guys from a different generation who never saw Star Trek. It never bothered me when they disliked a show I thought was great and often they helped me find ways to enjoy a episode I thought was crap. Lately though it's like trying to put on an episode of your favorite show and your kid brother who hates it is trashing it the whole time your watching and at a point it stops being fun. I would never want TA to start faking how they feel about a show but it seems Alex has lost all critical thinking skills and is just getting pissed for reasons in many cases that just don't make sense. Yes hate the show on the dialog, hate it for its direction, hate it for its execution but to hate the show based on its actual premise? Why even bother watching? He hates the Bajoran stories, He hates, the Emissary Story, He hates the Dominion, He hates the Worm Hole, he hates the longer story arcs. My wife and I watch these shows multiple times a week with TA and never watch any Star Trek without them but even she has noticed something has drastically changed with Alex and its sucking the fun out of watching along with them. I am still it it for the long haul as I have been with them for a long time. I just hope it gets back to how it was before and that is breaking down a show for specific reasons rather than hating on the show for just being what it was intended to be.

Muddyn

Alex is getting more and more obnoxious lately. i wonder why. is it because everyone said the show starts in Season 5 so he subconcsiously manipulates himself into disliking it? i honestly do not get it. this is a solid episode

Muddyn

with the amount of stuff he misses, it seems like he doesn't watch the show at all.

Trekkie74205

As I said before... A pic of Alex watching Star Trek since TNG ended. And not a joke, I have come to appreciate Josh more and more.

Tim Nikiforovs

I know I'm a few days late on this one, but here's my 2 cents. I'm not usually one to jump on the outrage bandwagon. With Past Tense I saw 400 comments and thought it would be the most painful reaction I'd ever watch, and it really wasn't that bad. I maybe thought The Jem'Hadar got some flack it didn't deserve, but it wasn't the end of the world. People are allowed to like and dislike different things. If Muniz story or Sisko's "trust each other" speech doesn't hit, fair enough. I say I liked both more than either of you, but I'm certainly not going to put it on the level of Duet or Lower Decks or Jetrel. That said I honestly got pissed off watching this reaction, because virtually all of Alex's criticisms were completely manufactured. I don't have a problem with someone not liking the episode, but if you have to make up bullshit reasons that are factually untrue of the episode to do so, then the problem isn't the episode, it's the attitude you went in with. To give credit where it's due, you did correct yourself on how far from the wormhole they are. The Gamma Quadrant isn't all dominion space, and they were 7-8x closer to the wormhole than the Dominion border. Why were they mining there? Well presumably if they had a more easily accessible source of cormaline, they would mine it, but they don't. They still need resources. Why wasn't the Defiant there? First it can't be everywhere, so the runabouts are going to be used. Second they established IN THE PREVIOUS EPISODE that the Defiant is now on guard duty around DS9. Between the tensions with the klingons and the fact that not long ago the Defiant came back to find one of the station's arms blown up, can you blame them? And sure you could say it's too risky to send a runabout, but compared to what. If the defiant runs into 6 jem'hadar ships and gets destroyed you're now losing a starship and 50 people. And yeah DS9 is a beast of a station, but the klingons had them on the ropes. Would you put a couple thousand civilians at risk so a few officers are better protected? A runabout is less of a threat and less likely to attract attention, and if the worst happens, you suffer fewer losses. They only called the Defiant when there was a justifiable reason to pull it away from the station. All the "war of the worlds" theories when the reason for the jem'hadar crew being dead and the changelings injuries were explained seconds after they found them. Inertial dampers failed, and they were subjected to likely hundreds of Gs of force. Realistically should have been splattered, but it's 90s trek. Why not blow up the wormhole? Well it's not theirs to blow up. Now if there was a dominion fleet headed their way, might the Bajorans decide destroying the celestial temple is preferably to another 50 year occupation? Maybe, but they're nowhere near making that decision right now. Would the prophets even allow it is another question. Only time we've seen the wormhole destroyed was a simulation. Who knows if it would even work. And if you're going to subscribe to the "run away from your problems" approach, why stop at the wormhole? Why not dismantle starfleet, break up the federation, and just go hide out on Earth and hope nobody bothers us. Because of course people who just mind their own business never have anything bad happen to them, right? I think the Ukrainians might have some opinions on that. The fact is there are always going to be risks in the job we see Trek protagonists doing, but they're worthwhile risks in the grand scheme. No risk, no federation. No risk, no technological development. That approach just leaves a bunch of backward, divided, and weak planets, and then empires like the romulans or klingons or cardassians will swoop in, take over your planet and tell you how to live. Or the borg just assimilate you. Then when it's too late you'll be wishing you took more risks. Turtling doesn't work in the game of civilizations, it just allows the bad guys to divide and conquer. And I don't know where you got the notion that the bombardment was meant to make them run out into it and get killed. I don't know how you'd even arrive at that conclusion but that's an idea that lived only in your head. That was classic suppressive fire, which is meant to do pretty much the exact opposite. Suppressive fire can be used to make enemy soldiers take cover which allows your own troops to advance. It's also a form of psychological warfare. Sure, you could say they knew the Vorta wouldn't destroy the ship, but they were still assuming it was some tech they wanted. For all Sisko and the rest knew, if the bombardment didn't force a surrender after a certain amount of time, they may just decide to destroy the ship rather than let it be captured, especially if they see the Defiant coming to chase them away. It's even possible one of those rounds could end up hitting the ship by accident. Even if you get past that, they're stuck in a dark ship on a hot planet with one of their people bleeding out and constant explosions going off outside. Nobody is sleeping in that, so the thought is going through all their minds that they're trying to keep them awake for going on 3 days straight and when they're ready to collapse from exhaustion then the jem'hadar swoop in and kill them all. The scene where everyone lost their cool was the whole point of that. And yeah, Dax was right. 5 deaths is tragic, but the information they can get from that ship, both from it's computers and from studying the tech is absolutely worth it. The shields on the Odyssey didn't do anything against the jem'hadar. They can beam right through DS9's shields. The Defiant has taken out a few of their ships, but more often than not got wrecked in the process. Romulans and Cardassians fared no better. Until they figure out how dominion tech works, that's going to be every encounter. So yeah, it was worth it. Anyway, I've rambled enough. The point is when practically every criticism of the episode can be addressed by dialogue in this episode, previous episodes, or just by basic common sense, we're getting into the realm of bad faith and very unserious commentary. This one is an A+ for me. If there's one thing that does bug me, it's that they figured out early on that Muniz bleeding wasn't stopping and that it's a side effect of the jem'hadar weapons, but nobody though to phaser a piece of metal red hot and cauterize the wound. It would hurt like hell, but he'd still be alive.

Trekkie74205

I usually am irritated by super long comments but... well said!

Lovok

Alex misses a ton of obvious stuff explained within an episode, complains about what he missed, but yet also goes on frequent rants about how it's a 90s show that treats its audience like children with a short attention span. Can't have it both ways.

E Parhas

There is no mystery with the broken bones. They immediately explained that their bones were broken because the inertial dampeners failed and so everyone on board was thrown against the wall at insane speed. The inertial dampeners lessen the effects of inertia so you don't feel the extreme acceleration starships reach. Without the dampeners you would be like a big on the windshield. They didn't say it but I'm guessing the Changeling was injured by the same thing

Steven McDowell

Well said, KingPin. And a very respectful and kind angle you took. Thanks.

Steven McDowell

My thoughts exactly Mr Moxie: (1) Starfleet is still an organization based on exploration (2) and yes, there might have been tactical advantage in mining the specific minerals found of the planet. Also echo your thoughts on the crime-ridden area, and the need to be ultra careful, but careful for a military service of exploration is different for civilians.

Steven McDowell

Agreed, Derek. I’ve never understood when anyone completely writes off an episode of Star Trek simply because an unimportant story mechanic/gimmick “winked” at them the wrong way. Why would I want to deny myself the writing, the acting, the themes, and perhaps, a thoughtful lesson to ponder, simply because of a story mechanic?

Steven McDowell

And yeah, Roy J.. Interesting observation. And “fat has flavor”: perfect way of illustrating the benefit of character-building and world-building that indirectly affects the progression of the main storylines.

Steven McDowell

I do recall them not liking “submarine” episodes, even as far back as TOS “Balance of Terror” (maybe my personal fav of TOS), and “The Ship” does feel like a modified-submarine episode.

Steven McDowell

That’s exactly where my imagination and reasoning went to as a ten-year-old watching TNG. I’m right there with ya, man.

Steven McDowell

Agreed. S-Tier. One of the DS9 episodes I think about the most. I also adore moments when even Dax The Elder gets a little too comedic for the room or runs a little too hot, and Sisko the Mentee (yet the commanding officer) has to call her out on her crap. Jadzia is so cool.

Steven McDowell

Of course we humans are inconsistent, but “Getting used to the Gamma Quadrant” may change with each episode. Alex really enjoyed “The Quickening”, which as another commenter mentioned was a “on a planetary survey in the Gamma Quadrant when we pick up a distress call”-type of episode. I personally have a noticeable issue with “The Quickening”: (1) How long does Bashir get permission to stay on that planet? (2) He’s the Chief Medical Officer of a vital post during wartime. Shouldn’t he report back to his post, notify Starfleet, and they could send a medical ship with an armed escort at a time deemed acceptable by Starfleet Command? I still enjoy the episode though, despite those questions.

Steven McDowell

Just speaking of myself: I personally don’t like hearing statements with the effect of “There’s great stuff coming!” OR “Grab a tissue, everyone…This one’s a real eye-jerker!” OR “If that didn’t make you cry, then you’re not human.” It hits my ear the wrong way. I would rather come to my own clean opinion about what I’m about to or have already consumed.

Spacecataz

I think this started when they switched to recording in the mornings.

Tigers Fan

There's illogical shit in TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, the fucking lot. You either suspend disbelief and try to engage with the episode, or you nit-pick it to death. There's too much of the latter these days.

BN13

Josh misses a ton of stuff too though, but nobody is ganging up on him. I think the main difference between the two is Josh tends to present his views in a more open-minded way, while Alex can come across as pretty abrasive sometimes, or even condescending if he thinks something is dumb. Fans don't like being talked down to like that, especially if the main thing Alex is ranting on isn't even based on what actually happened; or has a clear explanation that's obvious to the rest of us; or hyperfocuses in on a small detail that most of us consider to be a non-issue; or clearly contradicts his own internal logic as you pointed out. It is what it is though. Since others are quoting Q, I guess I should too: "if you can't take a little bloody nose every once in a while then you shouldn't even be out here." This is who Alex and Josh are. You're going to keep getting more of the same.

Dipper

Case in point, if they'd heard that the ship had crashed due to inertial dampener failure, it would have changed their mindset completely.

Phenomenon (Doo - Dooo - Dah - Doo - Doo)

Given that they SAW in graphic detail what happens to someone when they go through a near-instantaneous velocity change in "The Expanse" (head instantly liquified), it's a miracle that even the changeling on the ship survived as long as he did. The inertial dampeners are the only thing that keeps everyone from being pulverized as soon as any starship begins moving

Todd

Alex maybe you need to take a break and chill for a bit you're letting the littlest things or things inherent to star trek get under your skin and destroy your ability to enjoy anything. You gotta let things go more man. Seriously maybe you need a week break it would be better for you, your enjoyment of the show and everyone's enjoyment of the reactions. We love you man, but you seem unhappy or burned out recently.

Todd

I don't think he hates the show I think he just seems to be going into ALL star trek in a bad mood and with WAY too high of expectations every episode recently. Honestly he just seems kind of burned out or unhappy right now, he seems like he needs a break, maybe they should take a week off or something.

Summer

I think all Trek, especially first watch, should be attended with a favorite food, fries, pizza, something

Ca$hWednesday

I still can't get behind Alex's issue with going to the Gamma Quadrant. Starfleet is about exploration. That's literally what you sign up for when you put on the uniform. Not to mention, not all of the Gamma Quadrant is Dominion Space. In fact, I think there's even a line where they mentioned they are not near the Dominion. Blow up the wormhole? It's not theirs. It also houses the gods of the Bajorans, whose space Deep Space 9 is in. We also established those gods are trans-dimensional beings. Blowing up the wormhole would be genocide. The Defiant is defending the Station. This was mentioned in a previous episode. Why did the Founder die? He died because he was hiding and couldn't maintain his shape, not to mention he was most likely also injured in the crash that killed all the Jem'Hadar. This is an A episode for me.

Lovok

It's totally fair to point out that Josh does some of this too. I just don't think it's nearly as often. You're also correct to point out that Josh comes across as more open-minded and chill about stuff -- more willing to be surprised -- whereas Alex is very confrontational and comes across as extremely arrogant at times, even when it's arrogance-in-ignorance, and is now pre-judging entire groups of episodes (e.g. Dominion eps, Emissary eps, Mirror eps, etc.), many of which are baked into the core premise of the show. I've never minded when the guys don't like some eps that I do, although I will argue my points in the comments. The main reason why everyone's calling out Alex so much recently is because his attitude has become *pervasive* across almost a season's worth of DS9, with only a few exceptions. Frankly, if his consistently sour and arrogant attitude continues for most of S5, I will not renew my annual sub when it expires early next year, as this isn't making for an enjoyable watch anymore. (And I'm not a big Voyager fan, so that's not a huge draw for me. I can just YouTube the "big" eps.)

Anonymous Science

Anybody who disagrees with Picard's decision in "I Borg" has a fairly serious character flaw. Being pro-genocide is... a problem.

Carlisle Richards

I feel like DS9 is not going to hit for these guys the way you want it. They don't like the main crux of the show whatsoever.

Zerocooleo

Variable dopamine reward has been around forever, I try to never go into it in the hopes every episode will be a masterpiece I adore but you have to love the little things like Chief and Worf squabble that is brotherly love. Alex is a lot like the chief, his passion for Star Trek comes out as anger and you know what they say, passion equals love plus anger!

Ian Thompson

lol @ Dominion apologia "No guys, we should stay in our lane and let the aggressive, imperialist, genocidal would-be galactic empire do whatever the hell they want with the Gamma Quadrant and all its inhabitants because, you see, they just have a different value system than us! They value being able to brutally conquer anyone and everyone because their "gods" hate and want to dominate all other sentient life and we need to respect that. That's what you do with bullies, you immediately back down from them! That's how peace is achieved!" Now there's room to critique Starfleet on their, to channel Eddington for a moment, "more insidious" methods of assimilating other worlds, but the idea that they should just roll over and let the Dominion do as they will in the interest of galactic peace is beyond parody. It's the least Starfleet thing I've ever heard of by a country mile. It's also suicidally stupid.

Summer

This is the difference between amateur and professionale

Ca$hWednesday

The Dominion can say that, all the while they are playing 4D chess in the Alpha Quadrant attempting to destabilize it for an invasion and impersonating key members of governments and military. So yes, boldly go.

John A

When I had watched this the first time and also this time. I believe although not stated in the episode, is that Muniz as he was dying saw the changeling and was saying what he saw, as he pointed to the place where the changeling appears.

Doug

It's okay when TOS or TNG explores some new planet and something bad happens but God forbid DS9 does it.

Vee

Personally I appreciate the takes that are different to my own, it reframes my own perception even when I don't agree. It does seem daft for them to risk confrontation with the Jem'Hadar over a potential mining opportunity at this point in the show. I don't really mind because the episode is more about the human cost of military success but it's a valid point, Starfleet is taking unnecessary risks in the Gamma Quadrant. It's two seasons since that Bajoran colony was wiped out so it's clearly not safe to be mining there.

General Trelane

One of the best DS9 episodes ever! I honestly don’t know what Alex is watching.

Steven McDowell

I now realize why I like “Past Tense” more than a few other reactors: I empathized to a greater degree with the plight of the people forced to live in the sanctuary districts, and that empathy was forefront of my mind more than any slight acting or production choices.

Steven McDowell

I echo all of your points, Talyn. The Ship is important to the security of the Federation and the Alpha Quad. I had issue that Bashir was allowed to stay on the planet in The Quickening, not at his post during wartime, though I still liked the episode. And yeah, the Dominion is dominant and feared, but does not control all, so there are other ships and other interactions cautiously-conducted outside of Dominion-held space.

BN13

I actually agree with Alex in that I think the death would have worked better if it was Eddington. I don't like how he essentially became a 1-dimensional supervillain at the end of For The Cause. It would have hit harder here since we wouldn't be expecting him to die since he's been on the show for 3 seasons.

Bert

No. "The show needs to happen" only buys so much license. That defense works better with individual works. They can set their tone and their standards. Star Trek has already established things about Starfleet and the Federation. If you want them all to inhabit the same continuity, that requires some consistency. Creatives seem to balk at that but if you don't like it, make a show about something else. Make a Star Trek that is its own continuity. Make a different show entirely. Set things far enough apart to justify the change. Deep Space Nine overlaps with TNG and TNG already gave us a sense of what the Starfleet of this era is like. And note, when Gene wanted to revise Star Trek, he leaped forward to a different era which helped justify why the Enterprise D crew behaves differently than the original. But Deep Space Nine clearly wanted to be set concurrent with TNG. And that means their ethics, professionalism, commitment to science, and commitment to diplomacy matter. They encountered a civilization on the other side that wanted to be left alone and they're still screwing around. Now there is a justification. The wormhole is the home of the Prophets. You're basically dooming the Bajoran project if you close the wormhole. It cuts them off and diminishes the importance of their world economically and politically. And if it's going to stay open and we know they're already over here, we need to keep looking around over there But Alex is right to bring the objection up.

Sic Coyote

that's why I prefaced it, I don't have the same issue with alcohol, but I do with chocolate, so understand.

Skye Maidstone

Easy S Tier. Excellent writing, acting and execution in general. Alex needs to take a break from sci-fi and watch a soap opera or something.

Skye Maidstone

Risk! Risk is our business. That's what this space station is all about. That's why we're aboard her.

four_of_five

I dont want to spoil anything... but the Gamma Quadrant is a major premise of this entire series. if you're not gonna like the Gamma Quadrant, expect to have major issues with the show moving forward

David Evans

Man I was hoping you guys would like this more than you did. It's one of my faves, and that was one of my favorite vortas. I think the negotiations were very interesting and high stakes. The entire episode was well conceived. It was a true military and character study on every level. The crew member who died was the only weak point for me.

Loot Narsbaar

That's pretty revealing for a Vorta. Was that not what they're going for?

Phenomenon (Doo - Dooo - Dah - Doo - Doo)

In the opening scene, O’Brien was talking about “mountains in Ireland” which Muniz said were “gently sloping hills”. The inside joke there was that Colm Meaney had just appeared in a film called “The Englishman Who Went Up a Hill But Came Down a Mountain”. It was about a small town that was so proud of the mountain they were situated next to, but then a British cartographer came along and classified it “a hill” because it wasn’t tall enough to be called a mountain. The townspeople (including Meaney) did not take the news philosophically

Jill Barker

Is anyone else finding Alex impossible to watch? He is really only interested in what he thinks should have happened not what ACTUALLY happens. I am paying monthly to listen to someone continually sulking and trashing really great episodes. Josh understands far more what Star Trek is about . Alex has no interest in any of the central themes of DS9 or any appreciation of 90s T.V. I am not sure why they think people who love Trek would enjoy this constant negativity. I would recommend TA take a LONG break so they come back with a fresh eye.