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Discussion thread: Psychedeliology (HALLUCINOGENS) is live! (Patreon)

Published:
2024-07-12 00:17:30
Edited:
2024-07-18 19:51:07
Imported:
2026-06

Content

Update:  And this week, PART 2 is up! All of your questions, and we address set and setting, how mushrooms go stale, decriminalization, strains and potencies, placebos, the “Stoned Ape Theory,” neurodivergence, tripping in an MRI, recent F.D.A. hearings, astrophysics and psychedelics, and how to be a good trip sitter. Hilariously, just hours after this episode was released a new MRI study about psilocybin was released! So this ep is a great primer to understand that new research.

PYSCHEDELIOLOGY. Hallucinogens. They’re here. The episode is up.

I waited six years to talk to this wonderful dude, Dr. Charles Grob of Harbor-UCLA Medical Center, who has studied the clinical psychiatry of hallucinogens for thirty years. We cover everything from LSD’s weird discovery to secret government party houses, brain chemicals, neuroplasticity, anxiety, depression, parapyschology and more. It’s a two parter and next week it’s all your questions, folks.

What did you think? Let's discuss.

Tripping out,

Your Father of Pod, Alie Ward

Files

Psychedeliology (HALLUCINOGENS) with Dr. Charles Grob - alie ward

Part 1 : Magic mushrooms, LSD, ayahuasca ceremonies, DMT, ketamine: this episode is a grab bag of trippy facts. Renowned psychiatry professor and psychedelics researcher Dr. Charles Grob of Harbor-UCLA Medical Center sits down to talk about how much LSD is too much LSD, what juices are squirting in

Comments

slam whitey

How long have people been eating mushrooms? Millions of years?

Kimberly

FTQA. I have a parent with schizophrenia. I have never had any psychosis symptoms myself. I have had a rough life and at times struggled with depression, so I have always been curious about trying mushrooms for that spiritual life changing experience everyone talks about. However, every study I have read seems to say “we don’t know for sure, but if you have a family history of psychosis don’t do it” because it might trigger something. What do you think? Am I better off not risking it and remaining sad and shroomless? Thanks!

wicker bitch

Do any reptiles eat hallucinogens? Like how primeval is the brain reaction to them? Is it pretty typical across mammals? Do any invertebrates get to trip balls? Tell me!

Studio Dodge

First time question asker, Dani Dodge here: What potential is there for hallucinogenics to be used as a treatment path for folks with psychological disorders such as bipolar or schizophrenia since hallucinations are sometimes symptoms of them?

JeFF Stumpo

Just chiming in as someone who has psychosis (since a very young age, had one psychotic break at 18 and another at 30, have been on an antipsychotic since and fine as far as hallucinations go), I've always found it strange that people want to trip balls. I can trace how my creativity (published poet, have a PhD and taught college for ten years) has drawn on my subconscious mind, but I'm curious if Dr. Grob would agree with me that *ceasing* the trip is just as important as going on it.

Emily Krieger

my main take away was how many supremely fucked up things the federal government has done regarding hallucinogen research my God !

Alie Ward

Hey there! The episode is already recorded and published! We took questions for it a few weeks ago! Enjoy part 1!

Alie Ward

Hey there! The episode is already recorded and published! We took questions for it a few weeks ago! Enjoy part 1!

Alie Ward

Hey there! The episode is already recorded and published! We took questions for it a few weeks ago! Enjoy part 1!

Alie Ward

Hey there! The episode is already recorded and published! We took questions for it a few weeks ago! Enjoy part 1!

Kimberly

Whoopsie daisy. I loved part 1! Thanks Alie and team! <3

Alie Ward

How much did you take? Dr. Grob said in the 1960s people would do like, 200 micrograms which from what I understand is... a LOT?

Alie Ward

Please pass it on to anyone you think might like it!

Studio Dodge

Affirmative, capn! I’ll be back to discuss!

Alie Ward

I think that's such a good point, and its fascinating to think that soem people are born with greater access to those parts of their brains, but in ways that aren't always beneficial. I'm assuming you have to avoid all psychedelics, right? I also have a few friends who have bipolar 1, and they have to avoid even cannabis because it could trigger psychosis or mania. I'm on an SNRI and have only taken mushrooms a few times (tiny doses, and then one large one) but now I'd have to totally go off my medication to do that again and the panic attacks I could get terrify me!

Alie Ward

No worries at all! He does seem to address that and caution against it. In the research methodologies I read, anyone with a "first degree blood relation" with psychosis was eliminated from the trial do to that risk. Which I can understand would be really scary. <3

Alie Ward

So sorry! I'm sorry you missed the question round! I can see how my wording up there made it seem like a call for questions! Also welcome to the question-asker club, Dani! As your podfather, I'm happy you're here

JeFF Stumpo

Hi, Alie! Yes, when I got diagnosed for real, the psychiatrist very sincerely said, and I remember this exactly, "Never do LSD or any other psychedelics, because you probably won't come back." I toe a very fine line because I do use cannabis to help stave off the nightmares (that's a hole 'nuther can of worms that involved me having stroke-like symptoms and the attending neurologist explaining that vivid, lucid nightmares every single night is not what most people experience). The silver lining is that I've had experience questioning my conscious and unconscious minds in a way not a lot of people do, even people who use drugs recreationally, and I got to bring that into the classroom in meaningful ways. Having a creative writing professor tell a bunch of first-year writers that yes, drugs and alcohol can unlock creativity (and sure, go for it in moderation), but so can meditation or music because they tap into the subconscious mind in related ways (if not precisely chemically)...I'd like to think I helped some students from going down stereotypical and dangerous paths in pursuit of inspiration.

Renee vanden Hoven

i reacently listened to the neuroparasiteology episode and i am LOVINGGGG these brain stuff episodes!!!! cant wait for part two!!

Nicole Diamond 🐻⬇️

I wish I had been more science-y then so I could answer- we mostly got our hands on what we called blotter; doses dripped into paper we ate. With amusing pictures of things like the keep on trucking guy lol. There was no actual measurement as to how strong/concentrated the droppers were. As it was all illegal we really had no way to know but word of mouth -‘hey did you hear the new Mr Natural is groovy’ (I swear we spoke like that lol). My pals and I would split a four way hit of windowpane and ditch school about once a week. In our defense we often went to the Art Institute or Field Museum so I guess high school wasn’t a complete loss! By the late 70’s the stuff was pretty much speed and not as fun but it was fabulous when it was - the visuals were amazing. I had profound aha moments that influenced a lot of how I think now and Pink Floyd was never the same sober ✌️

Kimberly

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. I just read another reply here from someone who experiences psychosis and that was an enlightening perspective. Grateful for this community here. <3

Kimberly

I appreciate you sharing your perspective JeFF. I have a parent with schizophrenia and have had a coexisting desire and fear around hallucinogenics.

JeFF Stumpo

I saw your question up above, Kimberly, and I sympathize/empathize. I think the most responsible comment I could make would be to encourage you to talk with a psychiatrist (a good one) assuming you're able to do so. They're likely to tell you it's not worth the risk, but if they're good, they'll hopefully be able to suggest some alternatives. Or maybe they'll be able to recommend a controlled situation.

Bigfoots._.Ghost

To trip or not to trip while listening this episode 🤔??

Larissa

I listened to this last night and really enjoyed it. I loved hallucinogens when I was younger, and they played a pivotal part in healing and moving forward. One particular LSD trip helped me understand how I felt about nearly losing my dad and my relationship with him, so after I made an effort to rebuild our relationship and we got so much closer. Another trip was a combo of LSD and DMT over a weekend at a festival, during the trip I decided on a totally different path in life. I got home, stopped partying, met a new man (been together 13 years and built a family), pushed at uni, got my dream job and moved from my home town. Massive life changes. Our son was stillborn a few years ago and ever since I have yearned for the healing that psychedelics gave me in the past, but they’re not legal here. Would love a guided session.

Kimberly Butts

I have always been curious about psychedelics, especially after reading Pollan’s “This is Your Mind on Plants”. Highly recommend! I think it would be great to get off my SSRIs but the process seems daunting. Also, wanted to chime in that I live in Santa Cruz, CA and we decriminalized psychedelics a few years ago. 😊

Spencer Parks

It's fascinating to hear about psychedelics in general and i can't wait to hear about your personal experience! I've had one mushroom experience that was pretty interesting, but definitely didn't go as deep as most people so I think the timing is coming to dive in again. ;)

Alie Ward

Oh I forgot about that one! I loved it, too

Alie Ward

I'm so sorry for that loss. I can understand why you'd want to process it still. I mentioned that I did mine in Oregon, uhhh for legal reasons. But I hope you can find a doc or guide where you're at if you decide to do it.

Alie Ward

Oh I didn't realize that about Sant aCruz! I thought it had to be a state-wide and not county decision -- that's so interesting! and yeah, I'm in the same boat now with the SNRI I'm on. Last year going off Effexor was the worst mental pain and anguish I've ever experienced, so I got on a slightly better SNRI but am so afraid of stopping it and going through that again. (SNRI's, esp Effexor are especially brutal) but no matter what I hope in general you have a great doc who knows their stuff!

Alie Ward

I'm certainly really grateful to the folks whose info helped me do it safely and so I'm glad to be passing that along next week. It's powerful and being in the wrong set/setting is something I can help people avoid

Kimberly Butts

It’s pretty crazy. I have a friend who was growing his own mushrooms for personal use, got everything online. 🤣 On a different note, it’s so COOL to get to interact with you on here!! I have been listening for years and have tuned others in as well. I haven’t asked a question but did request a shoutout on the butt episode…bc my last name! It woulda been so perfect. I have heard it all- the jokes, innuendos and bad nicknames. Sadly, it didn’t happen but one can dream. 🤣💙🫶🏼

Jenna Congdon

What musician were you two referring to?! You both said the name and I absolutely could not figure it out. I must listen!

BettyOnDrugs

Many of the interesting research questions that will be available to us once primary safety & efficacy studies are complete for many of these drugs are around deepening our understanding of drug & diagnosis interactions. It might be the case that there are VERY SPECIFIC drugs and doses that are less risky for some. It'll be years before those trials are done, I'm afraid, but the questions are starting to be asked. 🤞

BettyOnDrugs

If Oregon isn't a fit, Colorado's regulated program will be up & running next year, Mass in a few years if voters pass a bill in Nov, and CA too if a bill can get through the legislature on the fourth try next session. But there are also more clinical trials than ever, including some for healthy volunteers. Check out psychedelic.support for info.

BettyOnDrugs

I knew I was excited for this one, but then I heard the donation was going to chacruna.org and shrieked with happiness for that amazing org! Thanks, Alie, for the ways you amplify the voices of people who are too often silenced.

Larissa

Thanks for the tip - unfortunately I’m in the UK, but have been looking at guided sessions in The Netherlands. I will def look at trials too though.

Larissa

Thank you Alie

BettyOnDrugs

Yes, check out the trials at Imperial and Kings Colleges...or, if you cross the pond, none of these state systems should have residency or citizenship requirements (just don't tell immigration about your plans!).

Abbe

What’s the protocol you used for your trip again? You’ve mentioned it before and I remember having trouble finding it online. Where would I find more info on it? Do you have a link? AMAZING INTERVIEW so far, Alie!!!

Gene Phillips

I'm another of those older folks (about to turn 72) who did a lot of psychedelics back in the day--first year in college was the high point, but I had started before that. I was more than a bit reckless. I remember being at a rock festival and a random someone in the crowd saying something like, "Hey, Jimi is coming on, you should drop this Purple Haze. I did and the experience was spectacular, but things certainly might have gone the other way. On a different note, listening to this episode, I suddenly wondered how different all my tripping experiences were since I am aphantasic.

Lynette Dávila

In hurricane Berryl path so no signal. One of the first things I did when I went somewhere when I got signal was listen to this episode. Can't wait for next week.

Natalie Parsons

How did I miss this? I was an acid convert in the 80’s having been sold some instead of the usual amphetamine sulphate (a traditional housewives choice for the cleaning at the time) so I went out to try to sell something seen as a “hippy drug” as I was friends with someone who knew a dj or three (my future husband) in the Wag, Soho, London I left it to him to get rid of the stuff, I took it (black microdots) they were great, I was an instant fan. The DJ’s couldn’t get enough, we left the country, the continent and on a good night, the planet. I opened a copy of id (the THE magazine at the time) and what do I see but the same guys, the same one who umm’d and ahh’d about how out of touch taking Acid was, and now he’s no longer an jazz dj from the Monday night Jazz set but he’s all “Acid Jazz’ and naming no names but he became world famous and that is now one of my claim to fame moments. I think I might have been one of the sparks that lit the fire under the Rave movement by complete and utter accident (no talent necessary) we went on to have a little outfit called “Global Party Posse” and had loads of fun with acid. But being Welsh its mushrooms for me, Welsh ones or Mexican I love the natural, gentle buzz they give. I have done loads of work with people who have quite serious issues and mushrooms or MDMA works especially well. Love to the people who know. X

Casey W

I lOVED this episode! I am a new Ologies Listener trying to catch up on as many episodes as I can at the moment. It was fascinating to hear the discussion and questions around the scientific research and just how conservative the government is when classifying these potentially life altering substances... what's new? I found the bits on Mkultra and counter effects with SSRI's to be particularly interesting. Dr. Charles Grob was a joy to listen to, could feel his positivity through the speakers! Keep doing what you are doing from a new proud lister!

aguycalledshane

Is there any way to get a list of all the books referenced by Dr. Grob?

Erin Bridges

So sad I missed the window to ask! Smoking oui'd is the only thing that has ever been able to impact me and I'm always sad edibles don't work and neither do acid or mushies- but it's hard to know if I just need to try again a few more times with higher doses or if they genuinely don't impact me for some reason.

Merryn Lush

Thank you so much for sharing your experience! Your revelation about children resonated with me so much and was beautifully articulated. This was a perfect pair of episodes. And can confirm, mirrors are a bad time.

Margaret Downs

This was so interesting! I loved hearing about your experiences. I relate really deeply to a lot of the stuff you went into your experience with, and I'm beginning to wonder if I would benefit from it. One thing I would need to figure out - how would it work if I have aphantasia? My mind's eye just straight up doesn't form pictures. (There's a really cool Radiolab about this from a month or so back, and I'd suspected it for a long time, but I followed along with the "tests" where they have you picture an apple, and I get just the barest, fuzziest outline.) I do dream, rarely super vividly though. So who knows?

Kellie McCain

Super episodes! Thanks Alie, you enrich my life and I am getting my friends hooked on you too!

Alie Ward

Oh wow, I'd honestly be afraid to take LSD unless it was doctor-administered or lab-approved just because of fentanyl. I'm not sure how often that happens, but I know party-people in LA that test every bag of c'caine. NO THANKYA.

Alie Ward

Dead Can Dance! I had a whole aside about them that I cut because I just didn't want to disturb the flow...

Alie Ward

Oh I'm so happy you approve! They're doing great work. Also your username is hilarious for this one. Glad you dug it, B!

Alie Ward

Oh that's an excellent question! Was it more of a body experience, or did colors start to melt and the music was a rainbow?

Alie Ward

What a story! And a weird little accident that shaped the history of art. Love to hear it.

Alie Ward

Isn't he so great? Also I tried to call the Tacolicious place at the site of the former MK Ultra "bordello" but they didn't pick up the phone. So bummed.

Alie Ward

Definitely look into any contraindications with medications, whatever you do! And talk to a doc earnestly if you can.

Alie Ward

Ahaha, thank you so much for the comfort on not looking at a mirror. And yeah, it definitely helped me process my surgery and ovarian failure and appreciate the people I have in my life who have never pressured me to take on a role that was just not meant for me. <3

Alie Ward

You should message @Gene Phillips, from this thread! Or search reddit to see if anyone's had that same experience: hallucinogens with aphantasia.

Alie Ward

Thank you for spreading the word, friend!

Lynette Dávila

Yes ma'am. Got power on Sunday. Thanks for asking.

Margaret Downs

I also have aphantasia, and am so curious what your experiences were like! I do dream in visuals, but rarely super vividly/there's always something "off" about it, and I never lucid dream. My other sense-memories/whatever the equivalent of the "mind's eye" is for other senses are super strong, particularly my hearing and sense of touch.

LightBrownPillow

Cool episode as always! I've never interacted with mind-altering substances beyond alcohol so this two-parter really helped me see just what "mushrooms" are about and why people would like them. Maybe one day I'll find my way to Oregon and see about a guided session & what it might teach me about myself. I never knew about the Iowaska (sp?) cultural heritage of the Indigenous tribes either.

Eileen

I just discovered this podcast and, as everyone here knows already, it’s AMAZING!!!!

Alie Ward

Plenty of people are able to get their hands on some NOT in Oregon but for legal reasons, I was in Oregon.

Nicole Diamond 🐻⬇️

100% not to mention my brain cells! We did not have to worry about fentanyl thankfully back in the olden days but like unprotected sex (yay no aids then either) those days are long gone ✌️

Naomi Crawford

I absolutely put this on the wrong feed somehow (and didn't even have it finished??) but hello! Long time listener, never able to think of questions until I hear the episode and I'm like rats, that would have been a good question. Thanks for making such a great show Alie!

Joe Porfido

Just finished listening to both parts! This one is epic!! Thank you 🙏🙏

geo.sassie

GOD I have so many questions I need a whole episode 😭

Margaret Downs

I also loved listening to Dr. Grob. I melted into a puddle on the floor when he said "call me Charlie."

Margaret Downs

There's a really interesting discussion going on in the Facebook group about this!

Gene Phillips

My memories of my trips are not at all sharp. I never had visions/hallucinations It was more like everything in the world itself somehow belonged to a different reality that was much more vivid and that offered much more intense sensory input. Music, in particular, seemed to flow through my entire being.

Gene Phillips

Margaret, I replied to Aly about my experience of tripping, and I assume you can see it. I wanted to say to you that my dreaming seems the same as yours, but that your sense-memories seem much stronger than mine. I am very happy for you.

Gene Phillips

Hey again Margaret. I listened to the Radiolab episode, too. I am an art historian and can recognize many hundreds of works of art, but I cannot close my eyes and visualize them at all. On the other hand, if someone says "Mona Lisa," for example, some sort of fleeting, vague image will flit near my consciousness. Thanks for alerting me to the FB thread.

Margaret Downs

Thank you for taking the time to respond to me! That's very much how my brain works, so I thought for a long time I was "picturing" things, but hearing people describe what they were seeing confirmed it for me that I couldn't.

Margaret Downs

I think it's a decade+ of piano training that really honed those particular senses/sense-memories. I've started dabbling in building my own Lego models, and for a long time it frustrated me because I could never tell if it looked right, because I didn't have an image to match it to in my head. But I realized recently that I can tell if it feels right to the touch!

Tania Magic Fingers

Loved both episodes, so interesting and some surprising things, not always pleasant, looking at you CIA! Your insights at the end of the 2nd episode were the delicious topping on the cake/pancakes...choose the yummy food of preference.

Alie Ward

Thank you, Joe! It was magical to work on, and I hope it helps some people

Bonnie Flint

After listening to these episodes I had a dream (without drugs!) where a friend and I were walking through a town and found a bunch of magic mushrooms and she was like "on the count of three we each get one" so we did that (why count of 3? Why only 1? Only my subconscious knows). The rest of the dream we walked around with them in our pockets and I kept wondering when we'd get to use them 🤣

Brittany Briceño

These episodes came out at what felt like a serendipitous moment for me. I listened to Part 1 as I was driving to the hospital to visit my brother who had just had emergency surgery and discovered to have metastatic cancer just two days before, and then listened to Part 2 as I was driving home to visit with my brother again after he was released from the hospital. It feels like me and my entire family have been thrown into such a state of fear, grief, and the unknown. And yet, hearing you and Dr. Grob speak to the power in asking our fears "What is this hear to teach me?" and your recount of your trip bringing such insight and connectedness really brought comfort to my soul. Here's to all of us on our own scary and beautiful transformative journeys!

Lynette Dávila

I have a question. When you were talking to your people were you talking in your head or out loud? Hope that makes sense.