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Chapter 8 Return of the Great Mother: Rousseau vs. Sade, Paglia introduces us to Jean-Jacques Rousseau and his mortal enemy - The Marquis de Sade. Hilarity ensues.  One of the best chapters in the book. In Chapter 9: Amazons, Mothers, Ghosts: Goethe to Gothic, she discusses the lives and works of the German Romantics Goethe and Kleist, and describes the transition to the era of the English Gothic Novel.

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Craig

Wow, that was heavy-duty! There's a lot there. I'm going to have to watch that video a second time before next week's livestream just to inventory all the ideas you introduced. For now, just a couple comments: 1) Thanks very much for the very complimentary mentions of my Discord posts. FWIW, I'm also posting all my "Sexual Personae" chapter notes at my personal internet blog in order to create a centralized collection of all that stuff for my own use. It's at the following address: https://www.functionlevels.com/sexual-personae (The rest of my blog consists of various amateur psychology essays in a Neumann-light vein, still very fragmentary and incomplete.) 2) I liked what you did with the sadist-masochist dynamic. Sometime in the next few weeks I'm planning on putting together an essay on the dichotomies of the rapist versus the damsel-in-distress alongside the femme fatale versus the decadent male. It will mostly be just a rehash of what Paglia says in her book, but I want to collect all Paglia's various comments on those relationships so far and put them in one place for comparison. I'll be posting that at my blog at some point in the future. 3) You mentioned Bataille a couple times in this video. I've read Sade in the distant past, but I haven't read Bataille so far. I'll check out your review of "Story of the Eye" and order a copy at Amazon using the link at your video (so that you get your percentage). Anyway, great chapter review! You certainly hit all the highlights of those two chapters, as well as adding a lot of value of your own in terms of theorizing and relating the material to other trends in western culture. Very nice!

Vincent Nappi

It's been great revisiting this incredible book with you. The Bataille omission on her part really is glaring now that you mention it. I can only wonder if it was cut for the sake of time or if, as you say, she just hadn't read The Story of the Eye. P.S. Chad Sade stays winning v. Volcel Romantics

Craig

I watched your video again. A couple of notes at random about points that jumped out at me. Loved all of the following: --Your very eloquent take on the cowardice of excluding Sade from the western literary canon (around 3:00-6:00); --Your repudiation of the Rousseauean idea that man is by nature noble; instead, man is "born in sin" and socialization is required to bring out the best in him (around 13:00-14:00); --The comparison of Sade and Goethe: Sade dips into Rousseau but comes out clean and maintains his Apollonian frame, whereas Goethe and the Romantics dip into Rousseau and are subsumed by him (25:00) --Your disagreement with Paglia about the homosexuality of suicide by gun-in-mouth; I agree with you (29:30) --Your aside about Walpole and "Otranto" being the first Gothic novel; I agree (31:15) --Your defense of Christianity as maybe being a better bulwark than Classic Paganism against the nihilism of life: Paglia says that Classic Paganism is "more complete" in its grasp of sex and nature; you counter that Christianity has a better afterlife scenario to offer, and it's less repressive and more nuanced (33:30 - 35:00) Personally I have no opinion there; I'm a lifelong atheist and skeptic and embrace nihilism wholeheartedly. But it's an interesting debate. :) The following couple paragraphs present an idea of my own, related to your comparison of Sade and Goethe: Maintaining Apollonian frame versus getting subsumed in Dionysianism. (It's also related to Vincent Nappi's hilarious comment about "Chad Sade" and "Volcel Romantics.") On pages 261 and 263 of the paperback version of "Sexual Personae" Paglia talks about how both individuals and society go through ego expansion in Romanticism/freedom and then collapse into Decadence. As I summed it up in my notes for Chapter 9: "Dionysian freedom, permissiveness, and lack of boundaries and hierarchies in western culture allows for endless expansion of the ego; but sooner or later Dionysian free fall triggers repressed/daemonic Apollonianism in the form of nihilism and anxiety and a need for closure, boundaries, and hierarchy; and then society contracts into the passivity and self-punishment of Decadence and sadomasochism in order to re-establish some measure of reassuring closure, boundaries, and hierarchy." But that's only one of two paths that are available. Returning to your comparison of Sade and Goethe: During the process of ego expansion in Romanticism/freedom, some individuals and societies will collapse into Decadence, but others will react with enantiodromia and backlash into Apollonianism: They reassert their Apollonian frame and snap back toward fascism. Thus, Romanticism/freedom leads to two possible paths: 1) Collapse into Decadence for some individual people and societies: Examples include the Roman Empire rotting from the inside out; and others as discussed by Paglia's writings on cultural Decadence; etc. 2) Enantiodromia and backlash into Apollonianism for some individuals and societies: Examples of that include fascism (Nazi Germany as response to post-WWI decadence); or hard-core religion (the Counter-Reformation and Inquisition as response to the Reformation); or red-pill masculinity (Andrew Tate as response to feminist-oriented society); or nationalism (white nationalist movements in the US as a response to the excesses of progressivism); etc. Some cultural movements can encompass elements of both paths at the same time. For example, the "doomer" movement in the US encompasses people who have given up on life (Dionysian trend) as well as their opposite: "preppers" and back-to-the-land Apollonian societies. (See "Doomer" entry in Wikipedia.) Which path will individuals and societies choose? In individuals the choice is probably more about personal orientation and upbringing: Apollonian versus Dionysian background. In societies the choice is probably more about external threats: Countries threatened by war or catastrophe will embrace Apollonianism, whereas secure empires like the Roman Empire in 300 AD or modern western culture will probably collapse and rot from the inside out over the course of centuries. Just my own thoughts on the matter, of course. :)

Breffni

“Emily Dickinson” as the American Sade was not what I was expecting. Now I have to read her down to the T. Good times.