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Hefty doses of pragmatism in these chapters, welcome music to my sine wave reading ears.

Hivemind Hypotheses

The restating of Cybernetic Totalist theories of the Supermind on pages 155-156 was a welcome concise retread. If I can rephrase the three common theories:

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1. You can overcome the problem of subjectivity and interpretation's organization of data if you just accumulate enough data. Chat GPT will figure out the rules of language if we just feed it infinite books! Unimaginable quantity eventually manifests quality.

2. We just have to program paradoxical self realization into the computer! That's how our brains work, in strange loops and recursive nonlinear cognition, we just gotta figure out how to program strange loops into the computers and then they will have consciousness!

3. Hey if the algorithm kinda looks and acts like a person, who are you to say its not?

-----That last one really floored me with it's simplicity and ubiquity. People really do feel like Twitter, Spotify, and comment sections have personalities. Livestreamers experience the chat as having a hive mind personality. We are programmed to see personality. A lot of our religious thought can be understood as assigning personality and relationship to forces of nature that we now have deduced are dead and conscious-less, but there's obvious I-Thou value to perceiving "dead things" as having personality. It's not surprising we should cast those impressions upon technology, but maybe it's telling that our religious instincts are directed downwards into our pockets and upwards into the cloud servers instead of to nature and human collectives.

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"specifics tends to be more colorful than generalities" (p. 157)

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The Origin of Tongue Magic

Some mentioned last week that they have been delving into John Vervaeke's meaning crisis serious. I have been rather taken aback in the past months with how intertwined neuroscience, technology, religion and language studies are. I mean folks I got into the philosophy game to talk about art, why am I reading about the evolution of our olfactory sense right now?

I am reminded of a music production class I took in college. I was going to be a music producer, an audio engineer, the studio whiz. As I got into higher level classes about being a sound engineer, we started having to do math. MATH!? and PHYSICS?!

The physical properties of sine waves, formulas for Q frequency spikes, the biological mechanisms inside of our ears, sampling rates and bit depths and equations inside of our DAW software, when did this become science?!?! I am not science!!!

Yet it all touches each other.

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I truly loved the birdsong section. We were trying so hard to figure out what sexual survival function that intricate creative singing might serve, we didn't consider that creativity for creativity's sake was actually the default, suppressed by conditions of survival.

"Terry offered an unconventional solution to the mystery of Bengalese finch musicality. What if there are certain traits, including song style, that naturally tend to become less constrained from generation to generation but are normally held in check by selection pressures? If the pressures go away, variation should increase rapidly. Terry suggested that the finches developed a wider song variety not because it provided an advantage but merely because in captivity it became possible.            In the wild, songs probably had to be rigid in order for mates to find each other. Birds born with a genetic predilection for musical innovation most likely would have had trouble mating. Once finches experienced the luxury of assured mating their song variety exploded." (p. 168)

You want someone to get creative? Put em somewhere where they got nothin else to do. Provide the comfort required to contribute. Why would someone be creative if it costs them community and belonging and safety?

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The bouba and kiki thing never fails to make me laugh anytime it comes across my tumblr dashboard, and I was thrilled to find out how close Lanier was to its originator.

Something that I've always kind of been flummoxed by is how easy it is to slot any group of four people into the four Hogwarts houses. Why does that always kinda work?

While reading W. David Marx's book Status and Culture, I realized that I had been intuitively doing something pragmatic. If two people in a group dynamic believe themselves to have similar identities, they will constantly quietly compare themselves and compete for status, causing internal social and psychological strife. However, if you (I) creatively reinforce and demonstrate how each person contributes something different (each person is a different Hogwarts house) then now everyone has distinct identities and they don't have to compete.

When I'm dealing with a group of people I always kinda brand them each as characters that can be celebrated in their specificity, and I think that's because I don't like competition and I am intuitively setting the stage for collaboration and community.

This is what filled my mind as I was reading Jaron Lanier create a 4 way XY graph between Bouba, Kiki, Juliet and the Sun. It's so ridiculous but when dealing with those limitations you can suddenly map similarities and convergences and identities and relationships across those four quadrants.

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"When the choices are reduced, the importance of what might otherwise seem like trivial synthetic or other elements of commonality is amplified.

Juliet is not spiky, so bouba or the sun, both being rounded, fit better than kiki. (If Juliet were given to angry outbursts of spiky noises, then kiki would be more of a contender, but that's not our girl in this case.) There are a variety of other minor overlaps that make Juliet more sunlike that boubaish.

If a tiny vocabulary has to be stretched to cover a lot of territory, then any difference at all between the qualities of words is practically a world of difference. The brain is so desirous of associations that it will then amplify any tiny potential linkage in order to get a usable one. (p. 172-173)

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This fills me with such glee! Arbitrary limitation forms the matrix from which meaning can arise.

This is in some part the source of my absolute allergy to those who say art is subjective according to an individuals tastes. Art is a series of boubas and kikis and Juliets and Suns, and respecting the reality and tradition of these things helps us know who we are. Yeah, you CAN kinda do anything and think anything I GUESS but then you're engaging in that infinite language game of figuring out specific sounds for every single instance of every isolated thing (and relationships between endlessly specific things), ratcheting up into a chaotic useless infinite language of atomistic nonrelation. This is exactly the opposite of what art does for us.

To quote Art As Experience:

"A work of art elicits and accentuates this quality of being a whole and of belonging to the larger, all-inclusive, whole which is the universe in which we live. This fact, I think, is the explanation of that feeling of exquisite intelligibility and clarity we have in the presence of an object that is experienced with esthetic intensity. It explains also the religious feeling that accompanies intense esthetic perception. We are, as it were, introduced into a world beyond this world which is nevertheless the deeper reality of the world in which we live in our ordinary experiences. We are carried beyond ourselves to find ourselves. I can see no psychological ground for such properties of an experience save that, somehow, the work of art operates to deepen and to raise to great clarity that sense of an enveloping undefined whole that accompanies every normal experience. This whole is then felt as an expansion of ourselves. For only one frustrated in a particular object of desire upon which he had staked himself, like Macbeth, finds that life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Where egotism is not made the measure of reality and value, we are citizens of this vast world beyond ourselves, and any intense realization of its presence with and in us brings a peculiarly satisfying sense of unity in itself and with ourselves."

- John Dewey, Art As Experience (1931) p. 202-203

And a John MacMurray driveby emphasizing how this religious feeling is fundamentally related to our social nature, existing as part of something larger:

Religion is about fellowship and community, which are facts of direct, universal human experience. (The Structure of Religious Experience p. 31)

And finally an piece of a poetic Emerson essay on the effect of nature on the soul:

Standing on the bare ground, — my head bathed by the blithe air, and uplifted into infinite space, — all mean egotism vanishes. I become a transparent Eyeball; I am nothing; I see all; the currents of the Universal Being circulate through me; I am part or particle of God... I am the lover of uncontained and immortal beauty.

An illustration of this piece of poetry by Christopher Pearse Cranch, ca. 1836-1838:

 

And one more from modern writer Aaron Sinkovich in 2019:

 

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That's all for now folks. Next week final week! Will book a Zoom Town Hall to celebrate.

Boubas and Kikis Below!

Files

Comments

valentin

> bird creativity the birdsong section was brilliant! animals are singing and dancing because the want to! reminded me of the last chapter of art as experience (spoilers I guess) where dewey goes full socialist and makes an argument for why freedom from economic pressure is conducive to better and more plentiful art. when the live creature doesn't have to fear death (literally or figuratively) it becomes more creative! this goes for birds and humans also. Love over Fear Life before Death and so on...

D.S Films

I have never thought about smell so much. I am delighted that anyone can specify in a particular field, such as odor, and that can be the most valuable thing there is, for the reason they give that are personal to them. When this is explained and expressed to others this can add to the collective consciousness and now we can all be a little bit more enlightened thanks to the importance of odor. It seems to me that a lot of the language and the way we think is based on aesthetics, which has allowed for much beauty, but maybe there is space for improvement. I'm extremely excited to read the final chapter and afterword because these two chapters really felt like they were leading to an incredible, final conclusion... but who knows. All I know is those quotes and sketches at the end of this analysis were beautiful and eternal.

azalea water

i may have relished the opportunity to go beast mode about linguistics. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanier’s done something only “Brading Sweetgrass” has managed so far: got me really fucking excited about biology. The way Lanier describes the “olfactory system” had me frothing at the mouth. Never have I given such a fuck about nostrils. Managing to tie biology to computer science (while keeping the prose interesting and engaging) is a mean feat, but Lanier pulled it off so damn hard! While giving us the phrases “grammar of smell” (p165) and “edditing is sexy[~]” (p166), he managed to communicate “hey, tech can’t do everything!” in a tangent-esque style that didn’t go deep into the Vibes Only Zone. Lanier’s been loosing me a bit these last couple chapters, but fuck me, did he grip me back like Cthulhu. But, one thing struck me as an odd choice: his sorta absolutism in linguistic psychology. Now, this next bit is a little vibey, and if anyone wants to catch me out, go for it. I’m not entirely sure I’m right, but I think Lanier fucked up. When Lanier describes the association between sharp = “kiki” and soft = “bouba”, he describes it as “mathematical” (p171). I don’t think that’s a mathematical phenomenon, it feels more like a psychological or philosophical one. We’re talking about language here, something incredibly fuzzy and unpredictable. The association with something as hard as computer science doesn't feel right, at least to me. Biology ≈ com-sci feels right. They’re both hard sciences, there’s a clear-ish objectivity. Whereas, linguistics is vague as shit. What even is language? The usual definition linguists use is when two speakers can’t understand each other: that's a language! And, like, that makes sense. My English and someone’s Malay are definitely different languages. But, that definition starts messing with your head when you look at it closer. Hindi and Urdu are (mostly) considered different languages, in spite of the fact that the speakers of both can readily understand each other. A Moroccan-Arabic speaker could probably understand an Algerian-Arabic speaker, but follow that dialect continuum to the end and a Moroccan and Syrian are gonna have a rough time if they don't use Modern Standard Arabic. And then there’s Chinese: the best brain-melter in all of linguistics. A Cantonese speaker and a Mandarin speaker might struggle to communicate in speech, but their shared writing system means they can write however much they please. It makes no sense and I absolutely love it. “Um, actually” aside, calling linguistics “mathematical” just made me twitch a tad. It feels like a ploy towards objectivity in a field that’s incredibly beautiful and fun precisely because of its inherent subjectivity. While the association of “bouba” and softness was 95-98%, there were still those who said the opposite. It’s cool that we have these species-wide associations, but when in the realm of psycho-linguistics, things are rarely definite.

erga

i really like that lanier brings up how computationalism can be used as more of a storytelling tool than strictly a modelling tool. in my own personal experience, i tend to think about my own mind in terms of computational metaphors a lot which i find is helpful when it comes to understanding why i think and feel the way i do, but there are limits to how much this metaphor is actually useful. i took an introductory cognitive science class a while ago and learned about computationalism, and back then i had a lot of the same responses as lanier does. the first three approaches to it seem in denial that there is any special uniqueness about human consciousness, which i think is kind of sad. interestingly, the way that lanier ends up applying computationalism is similar to how i approach tarot readings — i never view the cards as being predictive, but more so as a storytelling tool that helps me to make sense of things in my life narratively. --- i thought it was super interesting that lanier brought up the olfactory system. just to go on a short tangent, i read the book Entangled Life by Merlin Sheldrake awhile ago (AMAZING book about fungi and the interconnectedness of all life forms, 100% recommend) and the first chapter discusses the olfactory system pretty in depth. here is a super fun fact: “our eyes can distinguish several million colors, our ears can distinguish half a million tones, but our noses can distinguish well over a trillion different odors.” this is just insane to think about to me. noses are very cool. --- however, i don’t really agree with lanier that olfaction has some unique connection to language. language is filled with features that are the consequence of all human senses and just the fact that we have physical bodies that are the way that they are. pg 165: “olfaction, like language, is built up from entries in a catalog, not from infinitely morphable patterns.” ok but language literally is infinitely morphable patterns — that’s what makes human language distinct from the communication of any other creature, that we are able to create and understand an infinite number of different combinations of words. also, as lanier pointed out on the previous page, even though our noses detect molecules from the “catalogue” as opposed to them being on a spectrum like colour and sound, our interpretations of those odors are highly context dependent. same goes for colours and sounds, as any artist or musician knows. same also goes for language — we get a whole lot of meaning from context. idk i don’t think he’s really on to anything here. --- kiki and bouba mentioned !!!!!!!

Robert Lasica

This week's reading and writing went by pretty quickly. Its nice to see our friends Kiki and Bouba again, and it's nice that Jaron didn't slip into arguments that every part of language is hard wired genetics, and that makes some languages better or more true than others. An empiricist desire to rank and establish cultural superiority through the proxy issue of language can pop up around these conversations, and as always Jaron is more chill than that. 157 "From this point of view, what can make bits have meaning is that their patterns have been hewn out of so many encounters with reality that they aren't really abstractable bits anymore, but are instead s non abstract continuation of reality". I like that the encounters are largely unspecified here. Someone posting a family photo on Facebook is as much of a continuation of reality as a billion people seeing google's home page. 163"colors and sounds can be measured with rulers, but smells must be looked up in a dictionary". So I like to point at sight and hearing when talking about the relativity of our senses and our experience as humans. They are the senses most prominent in my life and work, completely adaptable to the digital. I feel like I have a blind spot to other senses, and my understanding of smell and touch stopped developing in highschool. On pg 166 Jaron is pointing at some of the ideas in large language models before the became common knowledge. I can't find it, but Jaron gave a lecture where he touched on some of the contents of this page, and I've referenced it a bunch when talking to friends about language. In one section of the lecture he talked about Noam Chomsky researching language in the 80s, trying to find universal patterns and structures that can be used to universally translate meaning. Noam didn't find the core he was looking for, and we now believe language more resembles patterns of the brain than conputation or basic formulas. It was one of the interesting points I heard from Jaron that made me interested in this book, and I would have loved if it got more space here. On page 169 I feel some tension reading speculation of the emergence of core parts of humanity. I personally am not getting much out of this. I think I just prefer a different kind of argumentation for claims like these, more proof and connecting arguments to their historical predecessors.

Silver

I should read art as experience im noticing

phil e the theyby

Weird that we’re approaching the end (at least for me, in my first KTI book club). How much advance notice do we usually get with the date and time of the Town Hall? I don’t wanna miss it, and life scheduling with children is complicated sometimes 😅 Chapter 12 is easy to brush over (I agree with CJ that the recap on perspectives is quite helpful), but I actually found (my interpretation of?) Lanier’s take on human consciousness quite profound: “The cybernetic structure of a person has been refined by a very large, very long, and very deep encounter with physical reality” (157). The way I look at this is not only that physical reality is inherently necessary for how the human brain develops, but that the whole system only actually makes sense in the context of physical reality. The mechanisms can’t be treated as an isolated brain in a jar; they’re inherently interacting with many layers of feedback from our reality. Our eyesight can’t just be modeled by looking at the relationship between photons, because our perception of vision is influenced by our fucking mood and how well we’ve slept. You’re not a gadget; you’re a part of a vivid and diverse ecosystem, and trying to describe a person as something that can be isolated from its ecosystem into just a set of binary inputs (like a computer) is nonsense. Like others, the songbird part also really stood out to me. As an extension of what CJ said, it feels like a powerful metaphor for how our lenses on “the way people are,” and as a result what kinds of political and systemic change are possible, are typically informed by witnessing people who are just trying to get by when their material and emotional needs are chronically unmet. Change those conditions, and I genuinely believe that people are capable of so much more, and of being so much better to others and to themselves. Also, thanks to CJ for sharing the Dewey quote, that shit was FIRE.

Evelyn G

Chapter 13 got me thinking about Cormac McCarthy's Kekule Problem. It's a cute little essay about the nature of the subconscious and how it is far older and far higher on your brains totem pole than you may assume. I'm being a little reductive, but bear with me. He describes this scientist (the eponymous Kekule) who was struggling to map out the chemical compound for Benzine. The structure haunted him. Then one night he went to sleep and had a dream where he saw the image of a snake forming a circle, biting its own tail. He woke up and had an epiphany: benzine is a ring. His mind could have just told him with language, "it's a ring!" But his conscious mind wasn't capable of doing so. There are intuitions, powerful intuitions, inside our mind - always active. They tell us that bouba is not spiky, that the rotten food is not going to be tasty, that your favourite book is better than someone else's favourite book. And this all came from a complicated system of evolution that only could have ever sprouted from the ecology of our planet. Computers cannot hear the music in a bird's chirping, nor the elegance in a blade of grass whipping in the wind. And it can never know what a crispy grilled cheese sandwich, with fried bits of polling cheese along the edges, tastes like on a day off from elementary school. The tonality in experience lives and breathes in our subconscious and the language we use to give it shape tries - hard - to reflect our intuitions. Maybe the word Ghost feels ghastly because the music in the sounds conjure the primordial image of metaphysical spectres. It may sound trite or cliche, but computers are far simpler and far colder; they do not have the complexity nor the ecology to actually feel anything. And I don't think they ever will. They will continue to be tools without a soul, and we cannot put an object without Essence in our circle of empathy.

Emrys

These chapters definitely got the ol brain juices flowing. Very lovely read. Maybe this whole book has been a way of doing to the common person what phaedrus was trying to impart on his student who couldn’t write their assignment in ZAMM. By compressing your awareness enough to be able to focus on the single brick, you’re able to then follow where that line of thinking goes, rather than succumbing to extraneous distraction. You follow the idea wherever it leads, and you get out of the way of your own ego. Strange how this is almost always a sure path to quality. If I understand Lanier correctly, his whole project here has been arguing against the erasure of the individual (how he does this, I have my issues with). However, his best arguments so far, haven’t even been arguments, they’ve been metaphors. The olfactory metaphor, and the bird metaphor. Both of these do more to demonstrate the damage of the homogeneity of crowds than anything else he’s said thus far. The compression of attention on these two examples, allows you to then expand outwards and allow to understand how these examples fit into your worldview. Well done Lanier. This also makes me realize that this book is not written for us. Its written for the silicon valley venture capitalist. For someone like a bezos, or an elon musk to even remotely entertain the possibility of socialist ideas, they have first think that they came up with those ideas on their own, but also they need to be stated in an language they can understand. That comes in the form of gimmicks like Songles, or weird startup ideas. They would have to reason through these terrible ideas themselves to figure out why they wouldn’t work. There’s no guarantee of that happening, but with the examples from the last two chapters, Lanier at least gives them a fighting chance to awake that kind of person from the slumber of their dogmatism. If that’s the case, I think that Lanier is aware of what I think of as one of the universal truths: you cannot strongarm change in someone’s mind, the individual will always be burdened with generating their own worldview. --- That being said, he brings up MIDI again, and I can’t help myself. I want to highlight Tangerine Dream in this case, particularly their album Phaedra. This is a fantastic album, but ultimately it was not what is could have been because of the limitations of analogue sequencers at the time. “The title track was originally based on an [i](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvisation)mprovisation recorded in the studio, and unintentionally exhibits one of the limitations of the analog equipment used at the time. As the equipment warmed up, some of the oscillators began to detune (they were highly temperature-sensitive), which was responsible for some of the changes in the music towards the end of the piece.” The analogue equipment would literally detune itself with use, meaning that the musicians would have to fight with their gear to be able to work. If you’ve ever had to record music, you know how terrible that feeling is. Allow me to explicitly state that this is not a criticism, but an observation. With something like midi, the band would have been able to follow the idea guiding them much more easily, and not have to be fighting their equipment. But the end result in this case was excellent nonetheless. These days, being off the grid in song writing is a technique (particularly when writing drum parts) that gives a more natural feel to music. So Lanier’s point about being on the grid feeling robotic is valid. But come on man, its just a tool, like any other, and it’s exactly that tool’s restriction that leads to insane creativity the same way that the 4 way bouba, kiki, juliet and the sun does.

Josh Foreman

"When I'm dealing with a group of people I always kinda brand them each as characters that can be celebrated in their specificity, and I think that's because I don't like competition and I am intuitively setting the stage for collaboration and community." This is a lovely summation of my impulse as well. It's one of the characteristics I have to sublimate hard to stay flexible in the game industry, as so many positions require an intimate appreciation for competition. Since I have none, I fell nothing when I am "beaten" and feel bad when I "win". Hardly the makings of a man who must design a system that relies on doling out happy brain chemicals when players trounce their enemies!

benedict.m

haven't been here the last two weeks bc I’ve been depressed / started a new job / haven't really liked some of the recent chapters but I’m caught up and appreciating Lanier again. I'm not sure how much I have to add to these chapters, and tbh I’ve been feeling a little intimidated reading through the last couple weeks’ discussion and seeing how much other cross-disciplinary reading and thinking y’all seem to be doing!! meanwhile I’ve barely been able to get myself to keep up with this one little book, but I’m pushing thru that insecurity and trying to put some thoughts down anyway so deal iwth it. (jfc this ended up being long, sorry) ‘computationalism’ as Lanier defines it (and as CJ restates it) is deeply and profoundly wack and it’s kind of disturbing how omnipresent it is these days. but I’m also super on board with what Lanier is trying to do in this section of the book: “What I hope to demonstrate is that each way of thinking has its proper place and a specific, pragmatic [!!] scope, within which it makes sense. We should reject cybernetic totalism as a basis for making most decisions but recognize that some of its ideas can be useful methods of understanding. The distinction between understanding and creed, between science and ethics, is subtle.” (151) so having spent much of the book ripping cybernetic totalists (or computationalists) a new one, Lanier is now ready to explore in what contexts and to what degree their ideas have pragmatic value. very dope. “Perhaps it would be better if I could find one single philosophy that I could apply to each circumstance, but I find that the best path is to believe different things about aspects of reality when I play these different roles or perform different duties.” (154) fuck yes. different things are true in different circumstances. different things are true given different goals and priorities. Lanier’s embracing of this overarching Truth makes me trust him a lot more. I also wanna highlight what might be my favorite quote from this book so far: “Humans, considered as information systems, weren’t designed yesterday, and are not the abstract playthings of some higher being...Instead, I believe humans are the result of billions of years of implicit, evolutionary study in the school of hard knocks. The cybernetic structure of a person has been refined by a very large, very long, and very deep encounter with physical reality.” (157) I mean this is it, right? this is why computers don’t matter and people do. this is why it rings false when you can tell a fantasy world or a made-up language has been designed from the top down by a person, rather than emerging organically from years and years of the complicated interactions between physics and history and psychology and sociology. this is why organic entities are richer and more important than non-organic entities. if there’s anything that can make computers ‘real’, it’s spending the equivalent of billions of years organically and messily evolving and fucking up and bumping into other entities. and I just don’t think it’s possible to make computers that can do that, no matter how much data or how many strange loops you feed into them. ~a tale of words and smells~ Chapter 13 is pretty cool. like some other people here, I’ve never thought so deeply about the process of smell and how strange and unique it is. when I first read this chapter, I felt pretty convinced that there’s some truth to Lanier’s argument that our sense of smell is more closely related to language than our other senses are. I do think he’s *kind of* right that olfaction is intuitive and complex and mysterious in some ways that our other senses aren’t exactly. but let’s also look at some of the things he says are unique about smell: “Both colors and sounds can be described with just a few numbers: a wide spectrum of colors and tones is described by the interpolations between those numbers...But the world’s smells can’t be broken down into just a few numbers on a gradient; there is no ‘smell pixel’.” (162-163) this is only really true from the perspective of a computer right? humans don’t experience colors or sounds as a simple set of numbers, I think we largely experience them holistically and intuitively, just like how Lanier describes olfaction. now granted, I’m a little colorblind so maybe my perception of color is different from other people’s, but I don’t look at a little purple flower and think “ah yes, #D33BE2,” I think something along the lines of “wow what a pretty flower, how cool that such a vibrant color exists in nature, where else have I seen a color like this?” in other words, I *do* kinda look it up in my ‘color dictionary.’ I think this difference is more in how these stimuli can or can’t be programmed, rather than in the fundamental nature of smell, sound, and sight. “A smell is a synechdoche: a part standing in for a whole.” --- “To smell an apple, you physically bring hundreds or thousands of apple molecules into your body. You don’t smell the entire form; you steal a piece of it and look it up in your smell dictionary for the larger picture.” (164) again, is this really unique? when I look at an apple, there are a LOT (like at least a dozen) photons bouncing off of it, and some very small proportion of those end up in my retinas. I process those photons and construct the image of the apple from this small portion of the light reflecting from it. when I throw an apple at a wall, sound waves go off in every direction, and only a small portion of them bounce into my ear canals. I don’t receive every bit of sound that’s given off, but I’m still able to define the sound as a splat, or a thud, depending on the apple and the wall. to give him some credit, I think Lanier’s also trying to say that there’s something uniquely tangible about smell. it is kind of fucking metal that you inhale pieces of a thing you’re trying to perceive and then your brain is able to translate those chemicals into some kind of sensation that gives you information about the thing. very very cool. but like...isn’t this also mostly a smaller-scale version of how taste works? and couldn’t you describe all our other senses in a similarly metal way? the way I read Lanier’s main argument here is that language is not quantifiable in the way that some other things are, and he uses olfaction as his example. but I think his point would be made stronger by pointing out that *all* of our senses work in this very physical and intuitive and holistic way, to argue that humans primarily exist in the world of nuance and poetry and specificity, not in the computer world of binaries and scales and hard definitions. ~the infinite dictionary~ I absolutely fucking love the idea that “some metaphors can be understood as mild forms of synesthesia” (171). smells deeply of truth to me. I think that language is fundamentally synesthetic. even in its simplest forms, like how certain species of primates have specific sounds to signal the presence of specific predators, what’s happening is synesthetic and in a way metaphorical. no particular sound MEANS “there’s a hawk above us” in any direct way, that meaning only comes about through mutual associations and a strange process of just accepting that a particular arrangement of soundwaves *represents* a particular thing. I’m reminded of a quote from an episode of Community: “Conversation was invented by humans to conceal reality; we use it to sweet-talk our way around natural selection. You know who has real conversations? Ants. They talk by vomiting chemicals into each other's mouths. They get right down to brass tacks. Blehh!: ‘Which way's the picnic?’ Blehh!: ‘That way.’ Humans are more evolved. We lie.” (Community s2e19) Jeff’s expressing something really cynical about human communication here, but his overall point is interesting. humans *don’t* communicate using the self-defined, computery language of chemicals. we don’t have an infinite vocabulary with every word corresponding directly and exactly to every possible distinct thing or idea. our communication is interpretive and metaphorical and culturally specific. and yes, that enables dishonesty and miscommunication and all that tower of babel shit. but it also gives rise to art and poetry. it enables us to play with language in a way we couldn’t if there were a universal language in which every word meant exactly one perfectly-defined specific thing. it enables jokes and riddles and stories, all those human things that computers will likely never be able to replicate. Lanier does a beautiful job expressing what an infinite dictionary like this would do: “If we had infinite brains, capable of using an infinite number of words, those words would mean nothing, because each one would have too specific a usage...with the coming of the internet, we are in danger of encountering [this problem] now. Or, more precisely, we are in danger of pretending with such intensity that we are encountering it that it might as well be true.” (174) as someone who writes and cares a lot about writing, this is scary stuff. and he’s right, again, that this danger is not in computing or brain power ever actually *becoming* infinite, but in our *believing* it to be infinite, and limiting the capacity of language in response. lastly just a tiny thought re: limited vocabulary expanding the creative potential of individual words. here’s a fun exercise: write something using an arbitrarily limited vocabulary. try out different arrangements and structuring of the same words and see how far you can stretch their meaning. for some reason I did this a little while back with a line from a Kendrick song (“heavy is the head that chose to wear the crown”); I wrote several different poetic stanzas using only and exactly those ten words. I allowed myself to italicize, move words around, and use punctuation but nothing else. it was really difficult to wrangle those simple words into anything resembling coherence, but when you do something like this you’re forced to discover the potential uses of familiar words. I ended up using “is” as a noun, every possible meaning of “wear,” “that” as emphasis, things like that. it’s cool, try it out if you like words. that’s all from me. excited to finish this book but not in the way I was excited to finish Kill All Normies, cause this book is actually good! hope you’re all enjoying your very large, very long, and very deep encounters with physical reality <3

Chandler Sterling

I recognize that I am later than usual, but I will not apologize for it. If there's an algorithm designed to hit every big wave, then I am it's exact opposite. I arrive not a second before the hype has completely died down for everything I touch. It is a gift. I think computationalism is interesting in an abstract way, so Lanier really hit home in Chapter 12. I too enjoy tearing something to pieces before picking them up and putting it back together in a kinder light. Yeah, we shouldn't be living our lives assuming people are subprocesses, but there's no way we would've gotten to this point if the idea had zero merits. Like Lanier said in earlier chapters, it's almost a default for humanity to conceptualize the brain in terms of the most current tech. This is just an extension of that thought. I should justify what I like about computationalism first though. Using Lanier's first pass at a definition, "...the world can be understood as a process, with people as subprocess." (pg. 153) Processes and subprocesses are basically just ways of describing the activities that go on inside you computer. If you've ever had to hit Ctrl+Alt+Delete to pull up the Task Manager because your computer is screaming steam at you, those are pretty much processes, and you may have even noticed that they have dropdowns to show tasks within them. Those would be the subprocesses (that's not always completely accurate, but it's the basic idea). Following this line of logic, the world exists with or without people in this definition. Subprocesses are brought in to help the process run, but they can usually be stopped without stopping the process itself. Considering all the doom and gloom that comes with "Silicon Valley Brain" it's nice to see that at the heart of computationalism is the idea that the world is something above people. That we are in some way expected to be in service of keeping the world going. That has a really beautiful social element to it. It is tangentially aiming at some monoism akin to Quality where there is a lead process, and you can follow a chain down into more granular subprocesses. There is a kernel of truth here, but it's a kernel built in a world obsessed with "logic" and "objectivity" to the point that those terms are really only code for, "Machine good, feelings bad." It is the same truth that makes us assume in every story of AI that the machine will destroy humanity. The underlying assumption from people obsessed with AI is that the machines will be better than people because they don't have feelings to hold them back which is pretty much exactly the mindset Lanier has been attacking for most of this book, so I won't go into more on why that's dumb. It's why so many cyber apocalypse stories make me more frustrated than anything. Marvel's Vision and Blade Runner 2049's K/Joe are pretty much the only AI characters I can stand. There's still a clear element of machinery there, but it isn't viewed as superior, just a part of who they are. Page 154 hit me with 3 back-to-back paragraphs that made me think of this book club. First Lanier talks about the difficulties for scientisits in dividng the world into 2, one ordinary, the other mystifying. This smacks of static and Dynamic Quality in Lila with the more ordinary and locked down static quality helping to hold onto the useful bits that are constantly springing from the more mystical Dynamic Quality. The next paragraph's discussion of the awkwardness of studying neuroscience made me think of the first chapter of Dewey's Experience and Nature, particularly the discussion of primary and secondary experience. Primary experiences are things you experience in day-to-day life without really thinking about it. Secondary experiences come from your reflection on primary experiences. Basically, Dewey explains that scientists first have to go through a primary experience to discover something worth studying. Then they use systematic secondary experience (the scientific method) to understand that primary experience they had. That secondary experience will in turn lead to primary experiences which will require further investigation, and it could go on like this forever. It gets at the same cyclical form of understanding that Lanier attributes to trying to figure out the inner workings of something like the brain. It is first experienced, and then we have to decide what to do with that experience. "You can't declare in advance what you will and will not be able to explain." (pg. 154) Right after that, Lanier talks about the way he finds himself switching roles, and if you scratch out every time he uses the word "role" and replace it with "agency", you would have an addendum to Nguyen's G:AAA. Even the way he describes how his goals change depending on the role/agency he has taken up just send me back to when I was reading about the library of agencies. I think G:AAA should be required reading for people in the tech world, and not just because of its takedown of gamification towards the end of the book. The library of agency might help more people take up this ability to switch roles that seems to have helped Lanier break the spell. The ideas get locked in because they work, but maybe they're only working when you're in one agency. Being able to switch around more might lead to less enthusiasm about locking something in just because it's working right now. This sort of leads me to a thought I've had throughout this book about why it is that Lanier could see what no one else in tech was even bothering to look for. I think he's the modern day equivalent of Plato's Philosopher King. The whole idea was that a well-studied weakling wouldn't have the courage to lead well, and a thoughtless brute wouldn't have the education to lead wisely. A combination of the two is required to be a good leader. In a similar way, the tech world seems to think that buying into constantly growing the cloud and taking in as much data as possible is the best way to lead. Lanier sees and accepts SOME of this, but he also draws on the other, more physical world where limits naturally exist and force us to think more about the impacts of our actions. I'm tempted to point to his love of music as a source of this knowledge, but I think it can be summarized better as an eye for Quality. Lanier doesn't always have the strongest solutions in the book, but I think the trust has always been there because he makes it so clear that he is looking for Quality in a world that would only care about it if you could reduce it to a number (quantity). That's what makes me enjoy this book even when I disagree with it. Quality is always at its core. Also, just a huge fan of the discourse around the existence of the "smell pixel". Lanier straight up says, "...there is no smell pixel," then, "Maybe there is a smell pixel after all." (pg. 163) within paragraphs of each other! He's just like me for real, no one disagrees with him more frequently than himself. I feel like smell is just being used as a way to talk about this research he's so into because I've already seen and agree with others here who are saying that all senses are actually pretty complex. Smell doesn't read to me like the "one true sense" that towers over all the others. His focus on sound's connection to language also rubbed me the wrong way if only because it sort of disregards sign language. Trying to connect an origin of language to sounds feels like the wrong place to start, I think it's more complex than trying to tie it to any one sense. Language seems to be connected to the brain on such a deep level that all the senses get tangled up in there. Even kiki and bouba get described in simultaneously tactile and visual terms with spiky and rounded. As a last tangent to address the flumoxing nature of Hogwarts houses, (because I can't write anything these days without a P.S. section unrelated to the book in almost every way) I think there's a lot to why we like to group personalities in fours. There's obviously the 4 houses in Hogwarts, but there's also which Golden Girl are you, the political compass, the 4 elements, and my personal favorite, which Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle are you? (I was a HUGE Donny growing up, but I've blossomed into a bit of a Leo) I'm going to steal a bit from an excellent book by the poet Robert Hass called A Little Book on Form. It's an excellent read if you want to learn how a modern poet constructs and reads poems. It is also in no way a LITTLE book. He starts by looking at the meaning behind breaking stanzas up into different line counts: one, two, three, and four. Ones are whole. It has to get an entire idea across on its own, and it is rarely used for much more than effect like punctuating the end or hooking the reader at the beginning. Two is a pair which tends to feel right to us. It allows us to subconsciously examine the relationships between two things. Maybe the purpose is to compare or contrast, but in the end, we will naturally try to see why everything got divided into these 2 parts. Three is a bit of a tough one because it tends to feel uncomfortable. Our love of pairs that makes two feel right makes three seem unresolved. It almost always comes off as a pair and an outlier. When done effectively, it can either highlight the discomfort for a purpose, or show us a less simple relationship. The best example of an effective 3 line stanza is haiku. Four is so nice because it's a pair OF pairs. It feels whole in a way that nothing less than four can accomplish. One is too limited, two is too short, and three is too incomplete. When handled well, like Bouba, Kiki, Juliet, and the Sun, it creates a mental image of a graph with 2 axes, one for each pair. This allows for just enough complexity to feel more True to the world while not overwhelming us with too many variables. There is a sense with most fours that they can serve as an effective lens for the world, carving out a small section for us to examine in order to understand the whole much better. All personality tests try to do this, but once you leave the clean world of fours, it can be harder to sort out and latch onto. I personally love them because even if they "aren't real" they tell you a ton about the person willing to divulge their type. Maybe Myers-Briggs isn't exact, but if you tell me you're an INFP, I know four things you value about yourself which is a good heuristic to start with in my experience. Alright enough from me, let me know which turtle you are if you like. I will give brief descriptions for those not in the know: Leonardo - Leader but self-doubting Raphael - Passionate but hotheaded Donatello - Analytical but anxious Michelangelo - Enthusiastic but unfocused No pressure if you don't want to, I just like talking to people about personality tests, and TMNT has always been a huge special interest of mine. Mutant Mayhem single-handedly took up 150% of my brain for a full month after it released last year.

Just Connor

don’t have anything to add when it comes to the chapters, but i love that dewey quote. i already have the art as experience book, but i haven’t read it yet. however that quote is exactly what i’ve been thinking about when it comes how art affects us. how art both feels like it brings us beyond and gives transedecnt experiences but also deepens and reveals stuff within basic external reality. it feels weird that it makes me feel both out of this world but also makes this world so much more fucking beautiful. so thanks for the quote cause it reaffirms those feelings and puts those feelings into words. :)

margaret (formerly Samson)

I’m writing this while listening to Noah Kahan and Wesley Schultz's cover of If We Were Vampires (originally by Jason Isbell) on loop, and while enjoying the windows open for the first week in a while. ~~~~~~~ I don’t have a ton of thoughts on Ch. 12, but i very much enjoyed chapter 13. Loved the discussion on Odor, especially since i recently subscribed to Aeon’s newsletter in the morning and one of the articles was about how AI models have made a Smell Map to figure out which smells are closest to each other etc! https://aeon.co/essays/odours-have-a-complex-topography-and-its-been-mapped-by-ai Quote from the article: “The perceptual yardstick our brains use to measure, organize and compare smells may ultimately have less to do with what a chemist could discover from running a sample, and more to do with our deep relational histories with the world. Our noses may turn out to be geometers not of the world’s fixed and invariant properties, but of its evolved and Earthly processes. There is something poetic in the idea that, in order to crack the ‘ancient sense’, the crude, most scientifically incorrigible sense, we’ve had to wait for machine intelligence.” ~~~~~~~~~~~ I made a bet with my Alt-Right friend. For every hour of Jordan Peterson i listen to, he has to listen to a podcast of my choosing. I’m trying to help him get out of the “i want to marry a woman who is barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen” mindset, which he LITERALLY SAID to my friend, and she replied “wait, you’re joking right? You have to be kidding, you’re not serious??” (in fact, he was. He genuinely believes this to be the best outcome for women. My friend later remarked, “it’s so unusual to encounter someone who is so misguided and has such bad ideas but who is so /kind/!”) So I’ve listened to the first three hours of 12 rules for life (of course he hasn’t read Maps of Meaning, but he’s read this one at least 6 times. It’s what he knows, so i’ll run with it. Maybe sometime we’ll get to maps of meaning together, we’ll have to see how he takes my reaction to 12 rules.) I need to pace myself - as a Female i’m insulted, as a Christian i’m alarmed, and i’m trying to read it in good faith, and CJ you’re doing God’s work with this video you’re putting together and i feel many pits in many stomachs about it ACK But BECAUSE i’m reading this (and also Lila), i’m thinking about the Order/Chaos dichotomy. I much prefer the way Jaron explores Editing (Order) vs Creativity (Chaos). The idea that Creativity is perhaps our natural state, that progress and artistry and life and energy are native to our souls, i love it. And yet i also love the Kiki/Bouba conversation, the demonstration that constraint can also result in more deliberate, thoughtful outcomes. Lanier calls it Less Lazy, and he’s right - if you have to put effort into something, you take care to make sure it’s going to be good. I loved that little section callout thing, “If we had infinite brains, capable of using an infinite number of words, those words would mean nothing because each one would have too specific a usage.” (p. 174) It’s the exact opposite of the whole Ducks Have Little Flappers On Their Feet thing, and yet it ends up in the exact same place. Either we’re so specific that there is no meaning, or we’re so general that there is no meaning, and either way we’re kind of fucked. We need both, we need creativity and we need editing, we need expansion and selectivity, we need chaos and we need order and why the fuck is JP so fucking biased against Chaos— —------------- The reason I write this while I listen to If We Were Vampires is because this whole concept of Restriction adding meaning to our creativity via the mechanism of Editing calls me back to the concept of “life has meaning because it’s finite.” I never used to understand how that could possibly make sense (why would that make any difference to the contents of life). I never used to understand why the ending of The Good Place was supposed to be satisfying to people. But with this section, I kind of understand. “If we were vampires and death was a joke we’d go out on the sidewalk and smoke And laugh at all the lovers and their plans I wouldn’t feel the need to hold your hand Maybe time running out is a gift I’ll work hard till the end of my shift And give you every second i can find And hope it isn’t me who’s left behind” --If We Were Vampires, second verse. I’m glad to spend some of my time here with yall. Hearts and strawberries and chaos and love sent your way, looking forward to reading the rest of the comments now that i’ve finally contributed for once this book good GOD EDIT: need to correct my citation - I found the Noah Kahan/ Wesley Schultz cover first, but If We Were Vampires was written by Jason Isbell.

reva

hi guys. i've been really busy with finals and after that not busy at all but i made it to the book club thread nonetheless. i am absolutely obsessed with personality tests and sorting people/characters into personality categories. always have been. (my most recent double-axis chart i've sorted people onto is autistic-not autistic and loves trains-hates trains. love that one) so the bouba-kiki-juliet-sun chart felt very familiar, but also it didn't feel that comprehensible to me at first. like, bouba and kiki are opposites, makes sense that they form opposite sides of an axis, but aren't juliet and the sun meant to be similar? i thought about this for a while and came up with a concept i like: the sun represents perfection and eternalness, a perfect orb that rises and sets every day without fail. and juliet represents an imperfect human that strives to reach the perfection of the sun and is doomed to always fail. (not sure if juliet herself did this so much as romeo projected this onto her, but i think it carries the same idea either way). so now we have the bouba-kiki axis representing the Vibe of a person (roundness vs spikiness and all the metaphorical associations you can draw from that), and the juliet-sun axis representing that person's desires, or maybe fate, or maybe humanity. maybe in this chart all humans would end up very close to juliet, spread out between bouba and kiki, and you would need to start considering forces of nature or gods to get any closer to the sun. there are more human-centric ways you could interpret the juliet-sun axis, this is just the one that is compelling to me right now. ok now i will talk about literally anything else lmao. i think meaning and metaphor *absolutely* come from limitation. i'm trying so hard to think of anything to specifically compare this to, but i can't, it just feels extremely true to me. i also loooooove thinking of metaphors as synesthesia. it really made me stop and ask myself, why exactly is kiki sharp and bouba round? and my answers to that question are closer to Feelings and Vibes than explanations i can give with language. i think the bit about birds being naturally inclined towards creativity but being limited by the need to survive makes so much sense. truly my first thought after reading "The traditional explanation for such a change is that it must provide an advantage in either survival or sexual selection" was "hey, what if birds can just afford to be creative when their needs are being met?" it feels a lot like the conversations we were having about how to do nothing, about how only more privileged people can actually afford to "do nothing" and improve themselves in that way in the first place. i think a big part of me is wary to see computationalism used in any way at all, just because of all of my negative associations with it and how frustrated i am that it is so ubiquitous. but i think that lanier is absolutely right that it can be very useful in certain contexts. what's most important is keeping track of when you choose to use computationalism and why. pragmatism! ended up working my way backwards through this one because i just had to start with bouba-kiki-juliet-sun. see you all in the final chapter o7

benedict.m

hi was there an announcement i missed about book club being pushed back 😬

halley

I've been thinking about this chapter for so long but struggling with the executive function to put something into words. but I need to cause I have a little rant about synesthesia I've been needing to get out of my system! "what can make bits have meaning is that their patterns have been hewn out of so many encounters with reality that they aren't really abstractable bits anymore, but are instead a nonabstract continuation of reality." reminds me of the profundidty of cliches and proverbs, particularly as in act 2 of the jp video! my partner seems to have a proverb for everything and I think it has to do with coming from a more rural and agrarian culture. there's so much wisdom in these little phrases, and the rhyming and metaphors makes it easy to spread. "while facial expression tracking software might seem to reduce the degree of ambiguity present in the human adventure, it might actually add more ambiguity than it takes away. this is because, strangely, it draws scientists and engineers into collaborations in which science gradually adopts methods that look a little like poetry and storytelling." love that fuzzy space of ambiguity delineating the arts and sciences. I feel that dynamic in my own life, as an artist married to an engineer! this also made me think of dr. fatima's video exposing how little anyone really knows about what 'dark matter' is. "editing is sexy; creativity is natural" this is such a gorgeous heading, my first instinct was wanting to plaster this phrase on the cover of a journal "colors and sounds can be measured with rulers, but smells must be looked up in a dictionary." there is a heavenly smell I sometimes catch a quick rare whiff of when I'm outside or walking in a forest and I am always struck by the realization that I have no way to dig deeper and find out what it is, no app to identify it or way to google it. my best guess is perhaps some kind of sweetgrass because I don't actually know what sweetgrass smells like and since I can't look this up, the best I can do is approximate through metaphors- kinda grassy, kinda sweet? the idea that smells can be categorically looked up in a dictionary feels oversimplified to me. rather than language I think of smell as most intimately connected with memory. smell triggers and stores and lives in memory, which itself is synesthetic. i also think its inextricable from taste, smell being similar to tasting but without (as much) physical contact. going back to my earlier exploration of mediums, I've been thinking that the arts of food and cooking have a special ability to carry memories and connection to place and therefore are a primary way culture is shared and preserved over time. -- synesthesia is normal actually -- I love thinking deeply about sense but something about Lanier's take on synesthesia really bothered me. he seems to fall for the fallacy of perceiving synesthesia as something rare and remarkable when in fact it is the most natural way we experience reality. our bodily systems are all connected and open for interacting with the world. smell cannot be isolated from taste or touch in any real lived way, only in abstraction. when I mentioned this to my husband he said he perceives his senses like a symphony, an orchestra with each sense playing a different instrument, with one sometimes taking focus for a solo but always working together. when Lanier says smell "requires input" from other senses it reveals a flawed view of senses as seperate rather than understanding them as intertwined and codependent in experience. I also learned recently that when we read silently our vocal chords still make the slightest movements which I think is so fascinating! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subvocalization) "olfaction, like language, is built up from entries in a catalogue, not from individually morphable patterns." is it though? also in this part he uses the word 'perhaps' a lot, feels like he's out of his element and grasping to try to make a point. I think smells can mix and merge like tastes and create new unexpected sensations which can't possibly all be catalogued. this feels silly to reference but I often think back to this scene from ratatouille when I think about this phenomenon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yyah49_Oz78&ab_channel=HugoLpz "some metaphors can be understood as mild forms of synesthesia. in its more severe forms, synesthesia is an intriguing neurological anomaly in which a person's sensory systems are crossed- for example, a color might be perceived as a sound." eek I really don't like the words 'mild' and 'anomaly' in this passage... I'm trying hard not to quote David Abram AGAIN (I feel like I'm just spamming book club comments with it at this point) but he's got such beautiful humanistic counterpoints to this idea, so here's a photo of a whole page you can read for yourself if you want to: (https://imgur.com/a/h1RFGsB) (enjoy a cameo of my peonies in bloom too :) the bouba/kiki experiment reminded me of learning in a linguistics class that one of the few words similar in almost every language is mama and papa, and the sound and associations of bouba and mama seem similar for perhaps not unrelated reasons. this briefly explains the how and why: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mama_and_papa I've been checking out some interviews with computer experts from the 80s on Youtube lately and its so interesting to compare the questions and concerns they were talking about then with the questions raised in this book! here are a few I've seen recently in case anyone wants to check it out, it's nice food for thought and helps me think about earlier ideas for the potential of the internet Lanier is nostalgic for: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S3m0V_ZF_Q&t=1447s&ab_channel=TheComputerChronicles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozipf13jRr4&ab_channel=ThinkingAllowedTV https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4mzEvqsiuY&ab_channel=ThinkingAllowedTV https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98uhNgNJuSU&ab_channel=ThinkingAllowedTV (this one I was just reminded of because of Chandler's comment talking about numbers 1-4)