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[Pictured: Mendocino Headlands, California's Pacific Ocean Coast]

This is a discussion thread to post quotes and feelings and thoughts on the FOURTH & FINAL part of Zen & The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

The conclusion is spent in Aristotle character assassination,  catatonic schizophrenia (or maybe enlightenment?), and suicidal-mind-collapsing-father-son catharsis. How fun!

(Some of) My Personal Conclusive Thoughts:

Made me cry this time! I think it is beautifully constructed and deeply satisfying, and reading now my second time I was able to appreciate the subtleties leading up to the end.

I was ripping through this book so ravenously the first time I read it I didn't take the time to notice the progression between the four parts of him coming back to himself, I was nervous about how everything would conclude, and the intellectual stuff at the end especially was whizzing by my head while I didn't fully compute it. 

I also want to acknowledge the complex intersection between Pirsig admitting he was never crazy, just a genius rejected by academia, while also very obviously having serious mental health issues. Even as he comes back together and realizes where he's gone wrong with his son, he sees this return as a sign he needs to kill himself or go back into an asylum. He's very traumatized by his institutionalization, and fearful of himself. I think this is ultimately all intentional character work designed to express.

Pirsig had a complicated relationship with the concept of insanity, which you might too if you'd been sentenced to electroshock therapy after having the best idea of your life. 

I offer up this excerpt from an interview he did in 2006 about what happened to him in Chicago:

'This is described in the psychiatric canon as catatonic schizophrenia. It is cited in the Zen Buddhist canon as hard enlightenment. I have never insisted on either - in fact I switch back and forth depending on who I am talking to.'

So. There's a lot of emotional, gushy personal messiness, but I love it. I think it's important. He couldn't communicate this story in pure essay form because fundamentally it's not a purely rational, classical message. He had to douse it in his emotion and intuition and individualistic personal romance.

Also, worth noting, Chris in real life kind of hated the book, because he claimed he had a great time on that trip and his suffering was too fictionalized. So make of that what you will. I think it can be true that Pirsig dramatized these genuine issues in their relationship to all happen intensely and confined within one trip, when it was really over a longer period of time, and also that Chris maybe simply didn't remember or feel things quite the same. The story still speaks its truth.

ANNOUNCEMENT CONCERNING BOOK CLUB SCHEDULE:

Admittedly that was a really breakneck pace reading we just did of this! Proud of you psychos who stayed with it weekly! And full love to everyone catching up, checking in on the threads when they cross a threshold. I'll keep monitoring those and engaging w anyone who comes through them. I do think these books are worth a read, and I'm happy to facilitate that process for anyone interested in them.

In my initially pitched schedule, at this point we would be immediately moving on directly to the sequel and maintaining this ≈100 page a week pace. But instead we're going to take a 2 week break. This gives your brain a little rest, gives some time to process, and also importantly, buffer time for anyone who desires to catch up! 

So what's coming is two weeks of no book club so that anyone who wants to can read up and relax. 

Then on Wednesday July 13, we'll start back up reading the second and final book Pirsig ever wrote, Lila: An Inquiry Into Morals. 

If you decide you want to strategically begin that book early, have at it, but you're doing so without my caveats and contextualization. That book is far more fictionalized and has got some #problematic elements, but is nonetheless the continuation of the philosophy of Quality.

Now, discussion.

I will be responding to comments!

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Quality isn't a substance. Neither is it a method. It's outside of both. If one builds a house using the plumb-line and spirit-level methods he does so because a straight vertical wall is less likely to collapse and thus has higher Quality than a crooked one. Quality isn't method. It's the goal toward which method is aimed. (p. 347)

Normally when you have a new idea to present in an academic environment you're supposed to be objective and disinterested in it. But this idea of Quality took issue with that very supposition - of objectivity and disinterestedness. These were mannerisms appropriate only to dualistic reason. Dualistic excellence in achieved by objectivity, but creative excellence is not. (p. 354)

What he said was megalomaniacal, but suppose it was true? (p. 355)

Religion isn't invented by man. Men are invented by religion. Men invent responses to Quality, and among these responses is an understanding of what they themselves are. You know something and then the quality stimulus hits and then you try to define the Quality stimulus, but to define it all you've got to work with is what you know. So your definition is made up of what you know. It's an analogue to what you already know. It has to be. It can't be anything else. (p. 360)

"Yaaas...." says the Professor of Philosophy slowly. (p. 372) 

"Yaaas," the Professor says. (p. 379)

"Man is not the source of all things. Nor is he the passive observer of all things, as the objective idealists and materialists would say. The Quality which creates the world emerges as a relationship between man and his experience. He is a participant in the creation of all things. (p. 383)

"Happiness and good are not objective terms. We cannot deal with them scientifically. And since they aren't objective they just exist in your mind. So if you want to be happy just change you mind. Ha-ha, ha-ha." (p. 390)

He has never confronted a living Sophist. Only dead ones. (p. 399)

When a shepherd goes to kill a wolf, and takes his dog to see the sport, he should take care to avoid mistakes. The dog has certain relationships to the wolf the shepherd may have forgotten. (p. 399)

Dialectic, which is the parent of logic, came itself from rhetoric. Rhetoric is in turn the child of the myths and poetry of ancient Greece... The poetry and the myths are the response of a prehistoric people to the universe around them made on the basis of Quality. It is Quality, not dialectic, which is the generator of everything we know. (p. 401)

I can imitate the father he's supposed to have, but subconsciously, at the Quality level, he sees through it and knows his real father isn't here. In all this Chautauqua talk there's been more than a touch of hypocrisy. Advice is given again and again to eliminate subject-object duality, when the biggest duality of all, the duality between me and him, remains unfaced. A mind divided against itself. (p. 412)

...when they arrive at the ocean and the conscious images are compared with the subconscious dream there is a sense of defeat at having come so far to be so stopped by a mystery that can never be fathomed. The source of it all. (p. 414)

And Finally:

"Were you really insane?"

Why should he ask that?

"No!"

Astonishment hits. But Chris's eyes sparkle.

"I knew it," he says. (p. 422)

One More Sad Thing:

If you have read the afterward, you know the gut punch that Chris was murdered in Pirsig's lifetime.

5 years after the publication of Zen & The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, 2 weeks before his 23rd birthday, Chris was stabbed to death in a random mugging.

In the afterward reflecting on this, Pirsig is obviously deeply mournful. He is in all of his interviews every time it comes up. In trying to reckon with it, he starts to talk about patterns, intellectualizing in the only way how what the exact nature of the hole in his heart that Chris's death left. He settles on patterns. Patterns of people, patterns of love, patterns of Quality. These patterns are the subject of the next book, and Chris's death can explain some of the darkness and strangeness of Pirsig's only other book, released 23 years after ZMM and 12 years after the death of his son.

Now. All that being said.

 Thoughts & Feelings below.

Files

Comments

Chandler Sterling

So Dialectic is the Devil. I guess Evil is never far behind Good, but I was a bit shocked to find that this is the form it would take at first. The greatest trick the Devil ever played was in fact being Greek this whole time! How dare these men create society as we know it, don't they know I have to live in it now??? It is amazing how quickly this part had me leaping between cheering Phaedrus on in his absolute John Wick-ing of every poor Chicago-based philosopher for the sake of the greater good and fearing when the inevitable evolution into the narrator would occur. I will start by saying that I love the fact that the narrator is so unreliable (Pirsig has said as much). Before I fully understood what ZMM was going for, I wasn't sure how a philosophy could come across from the lips of someone we can't trust, but it is almost subconscious how effective it is that the narrator is conveying an idea he himself isn't fully sold on. The fear is palpable at this point in the journey, and he's pulling every rhetorical trick in the book to convince himself that Phaedrus is a threat. And that's really the point of the unreliability at the end of the day: it is the most effective way to illustrate how much the narrator is lying to himself more than us. HE needs to believe that he's got this new idea. That HE will take everything Phaedrus made and make it work on the individual level while avoiding all the same potholes in the road. The story about Phaedrus even though he's continually promised to move on to better and brighter things, is to hopefully remind himself of where it all went wrong. He thinks he can think himself out of doing the same things, making the same mistakes, returning to form. He thinks Chris was hurt by Phaedrus, and it's heartbreaking to see him continue to hurt him in the attempt to never let that happen again. It's human. And tragic. Redundant. Luckily we have hope coming not too far around the bend. Also human. "Maybe the National Park Service should set just one pile of beer cans in the middle of all that lava and then it would come to life. The absence of beer cans is distracting." (pg. 350) Again, it's just funny and sad. We want to escape into nature in these parks, but even immersed in what was once "natural" it feels somewhat artificial. Can we even be sure we know what natural means to us anymore? This mirrors Phaedrus' hate for the attempts at Quality later on. Synthesis is the name of the game with this part. When the narrator talked about Greek mythos, I certainly didn't expect that to translate to "modern scientific thought as we know it," but here we are. The understanding of our general subject-object orientation as a progression from the way we structure our sentences as subject-predicate was already a thought I had swimming around, so I'm glad to see it here somewhat. The extension into the religious meaning behind how we speak in the Western and Eastern worlds was a new one for me though, and very welcome at that. Gotta love just how complicated something as fundamental as why we talk the way we do can be. Really raises a fun? question about how to even articulate that which is fundamental to a language you have spoken since before you were conscious of it. It shaped the very way you could go about understanding and learning, who bothers to understand and learn about it except from the outside? According to Phaedrus, it takes a certain level of shaky mental health which seems intuitively true to me. Not that I give a shit about Truth right now, I'm on the side of Good! I love how pissed off Phaedrus is when reading ANY philosophy. Like right off the bat, it either has Quality, or he's just so fed up with it. Inspiring. The pettiness he had for a long dead Greek man like Aristotle is incredible. "For page after page Aristotle went on like this. Like some third-rate technical instructor," (pg. 370) All I have written in the margins is, "Weird diss, but effective". And we were PRIMED for it with the whole bit about the rotisserie at the DeWeeses'! It's all coming together, AHH! I appreciate the overall defense of the Sophists and rhetoric in general. As someone obsessively concerned with communication, rhetoric is near and dear to my heart, and I am not learned enough to defend it at ALL. Phaedrus luckily took the wheel on that one and I got to kick back and enjoy the passenger seat for a minute. Arete is a defense for the jack-of-all-trades mindset, so I can finally feel vindicated in that as well. "The only disagreements among the monists concern the attributes of the One, not the One itself." (pg. 396) Very interested to dig deeper into everyone's posts again with the full book and see the denominations of Quality that appear throughout. Without something as strict as a standard definition, I'm certain it's inevitable. I love the ending as much as anyone else, but I do think for me the best way to end off (because recency bias implies this is the only part of this post you'll actually remember) is with this other extremely hopeful quote: "Quality destroys objectivity every time." (pg. 367) It might not have been so conscious for a while, but we can have a Sophist renaissance whenever we need it. Quality cannot die, it was here the whole time.

alexinthevoid

Idk if anyone is still looking over here but: This book really changed how I view everything for much the better. I feel like I've matured a bit with it. There are a few essay questions in the back of my copy (Vintage, 2004) that I will write about. The devastating turned beautiful afterword was a shocker.

Just Connor

changed my life completely, i don’t really have more than that to add

Lucas Regis

Chris actually hating the book might be the perfect punchline to the book's narrative through-line of misunderstanding and/or active deception. In particular I cannot stop thinking about this moment in ch. 30, in the middle of Phaedrus's apparent mental breakdown: "This is about the time he and Chris try to find the sellers of bunk beds for the children to sleep in. After that he does not leave the apartment." At first, this line seems odd. It doesn't lead into anything, and actively breaks from the "avalanche" momentum of his descent into catatonia. Until we get Chris's PoV: "Remember the time we went to look for beds?" "That was fun?" "Sure", he says, and is quiet for a long time. Then he says, "Don't you remember? You made me find all the directions home. - You used to play games with us. You used to tell us all kinds of stories and we'd go on rides to do things and now you don't do anything." "Yes, I do." "No, you don't! You just sit and stare and you don't do anything!" Holy shit!! Immediately this moment calls into question the entire nature of the two's relationship. Through Pirsig's "second-hand" account of Phaedrus we're told to expect him to be distant and self-absorbed. But Chris's account destroys all of that certainty. We're told that, even as he was going through the existential crisis of the century, Phaedrus was still alive. He still had a family, still played with his kids. Was he just not paying attention to these moments, putting on a mask, or is present Pirsig's account fundamentally flawed? From Chris's perspective, his catatonic state has more similarities to his new "fake" father than the old one. "He crosses a lonesome valley, out of the mythos, and emerges as if from a dream, seeing that his whole consciousness, the mythos, has been a dream and no one's dream but his own, a dream he must now sustain of his own efforts. Then even "he" disappears and only the dream of himself remains with himself in it." Is this moment of dissociation the actual true birth of the present personality (with the shock therapy acting as a "cutting of the umbilical cord", so to say)? It has a direct parallel with the eventual confrontation with Chris in the cliff, "We're in another dream. That's why my voice sounds so strange." To be clear, I am incredibly confused by what is going here. My first instinct is to say it is deliberately baffling and there's not an actual answer (at least not one that is revealed in the book), as if to mock the idea of dividing a complex person into two halves in the first place. Just as the actual philosophy of Part 4 seems to lean anti-dialectic and anti-dualism, the narrative starts to blur the previously well-defined lines. The separation between past tense Phaedrus and present tense Pirsig is a construction, "a dream sustained by his own efforts", and the only real difference between the two is that Phaedrus used to be truthful until he decided to live a life of lies. Or rather, it's probably wrong to say he decided it, it was decided upon him... "Who did it? I didn't do it. And there's no way now of undoing it." It came to me at one point that what is wrong about his relationship with Chris relates to my favorite quote from Part 3: "Peace of mind produces right values, right values produces right thoughts. Right thoughts produce right actions [...]", there's a disconnect here. Pirsig immerses himself in these high thought Chautauquas, he thinks all these wonderful things, but he can't bring himself to utilize this knowledge socially. His "right" thoughts do NOT produce right actions. There's now a barrier around them, they are externalized as exclusively Phaedrus's, such that the chain is broken. It's no wonder Chris thinks he is boring and doesn't "do anything". He has NO thoughts, so he does NOTHING. All his thoughts are actually attributed to someone else. He can somewhat pass this off as "living in the moment", but in reality, what he does is spend a long time perceiving others, perceiving himself perceiving, perceiving how others perceive him. It's all gazing, all performance. It's no wonder he seems to often think of Chris's distress as some sort of malicious performance, that's projection. Chris on the other hand, is incredibly perceptive. He knows something is wrong, something no one else can see, and that's why he's in such distress. He can't have peace of mind, so he can't produce the right actions. "The answer doesn't seem to satisfy him. But he can't seem to say what's wrong with it. A sudden despair wave hits, like that a dawn. I lie to him. That's what's wrong." Or at least that's the answer Pirsig seems to come to. That's the reason why Chris actually hating the book irl is such a perfect punchline, it strongly highlights the possibility that Pirsig was actually just projecting even his own despair to those around him, as a depressive mind is prone to doing. Chris was, in fact, vibing. But a mind that's haunted by guilt will find judges wherever it looks. "What I am is a heretic who's recanted and thereby in everyone's eyes saved his soul. Everyone's eyes but one, who knows deep down inside that all he has saved is his skin." Is this novel from the 70s about a dad reconnecting with his son, in fact, closeted queer-core? Fucked up if true This Part was the most exciting of the book by a long shot. The narrative/philosophy dyad has fully broken down into a past/present one where the past is actually told in present tense, indicating it is still alive here and now. There's an impulsiveness to it that makes it easy to tear through the pages, as if you're on the brink of enlightenment (it makes you relate well to Phaedrus I guess). Big Emotions and Big Thoughts going around. Every single ounce of meaning is baked into the form. Where traditional reason cannot reach, narrative does the job. The two are fully connected at this point. Some other points of interest to me: - The choice of keeping the Professor and the Chairman unnamed is good and immediately meaningful. This choice makes it immediately unclear whether he is talking of a single person or Every Single Professor of Philosophy whenever you take a quote out of context, which is obviously intentional, as Phaedrus will eventually take these experience to form broad conclusions about academia. - "You point to something as having Quality and the Quality tends to go away." This is an interesting quote. I do think it is broadly true in the sense that pointing something out (dividing it away from the One thing) always alters the nature of our relationship to it. That original Quality is gone; but the lines are blurred in that this new relationship may also have its own Quality. Very Sontag-ish "do not replace the actual thing with the interpretation" kind of thing. Pirsig takes a similarly hardline approach here which foreshadows the overarching idea that some things are better off left undefined by rationality. When, later on, he says "Phaedrus' mind races on and on and then on further, seeing now at last a kind of evil thing, an evil deeply entrenched in himself, which pretends to try to understand love and beauty and truth and wisdom but whose real purpose is never to understand them, whose real purpose is always to usurp them and enthrone itself", he's talking about the same thing, only in way more aggressive terms. Present-day Pirsig sees it as the Quality simply "going away", whereas Phaedrus sees it as Rationality actively destroying Quality and usurping its place. - "wait did the greeks not believe in their myths" - As a certified Plato and Aristotle hater, you bet I loved every single second of absolute slander in ch. 29. The focus on the Sophists in particular is something I hadn't really seen before and it made me curious to study more about this period. A lot of the culture surrounding Ancient Philosophy puts Plato and Aristotle in a kind of pedestal rather than seeing them as in direct and level conflict with other philosophers of their times, which is a pattern I was really happy to see Pirsig break here. - The description of Phaedrus' slow breakdown into anxiety leading into depression leading to a form of enlightenment/catatonic schizophrenia feels so intensely real it's actually scary. In particular, I like how Pirsig's description focuses on life maintenance work that he becomes incapable of doing. His sleep dwindles, from 4 hours to two and then nothing. He can't study and he can't work. He walks around the streets and all he sees is lack. It brings the situation straight down to the reality of living. It's not just that he's going through enlightenment because of his great ideas, it's that he's failed at his primary task of day-to-day living, and because he fails at this his thoughts start to fail as well. Right values, right thoughts, right actions... "His time consciousness begins to go. Sometimes his thoughts race on and on at a speed seeming to approach that of light. But when he tries to make decisions relating to his surroundings, it seems to take whole minutes for a single thought to emerge." Sleep deprivation affects time perception. He's already begun to dissociate at this point, and it's directly because of his living conditions. [Putting aside whether any of this is reliable info since Chris's account directly calls it into question aaaaaa] - The eventual confrontation with Chris also mirrors Phaedrus's breakdown. We start with things Chris no longer does (he doesn't see any point in moving anymore, he doesn't put his coat on, he won't rest, and he won't eat) and then we move to his emotional reality, the "consequences": "You don't want to be on this trip. You hate it. Yet you don't want to stay with anyone or go anywhere else. All these people I've mentioned you either don't like or they don't like you." - Lotta focus on the sea. Initially it comes as a relief, but then it becomes overpowering. The sea obviously has a lot of inherent symbolism. It's both the source of life, womb of all living beings, and also the unsolvable mystery that will probably kill us all. Listening to the waves is always bittersweet, they represent the impermanence of things. Suicide by sea is intensely poetic in a way that's legitimately scary. The worst intrusive thought. It's fun that Pirsig (in dialectic fashion) connects this mess of associations using the separation between coastal people and inland people. It's true to an extent, of course. I live in a coastal city and both me and most people I know find a huge measure of comfort in the sea. It's like I'm connected to it, I couldn't imagine living far away. But it's interesting primarily in the way it relates to the fake "Pirsig" himself. Phaedrus and Chris are both "coastal people" at heart, they are comfortable with the questions that don't have answers, they want to dive straight in. That's not something he can relate to, to him the sea means death. This was a wonderful read and really changed the way I looked at a lot things for the better! There's a lot of factors that make it hard to recommend to other people unfortunately (it hits at that perfect intersection where I think everyone everywhere from all over the political spectrum would find some kind of annoyance in it), but those factors are also what make it special. There's truly no other book like this. I'm glad to have been able to read it with this Book Club in tow and everyone's incredibly insightful opinions on each part!! Definitely want to start Lila soon-ish, but I want to let things simmer on this one first, maybe re-read a few parts, and also blow through a lighter read in the meanwhile. I'll continue trying to pursue Quality in my own life. To finalize my yapping session once and for all, I'd like to share a quote by the one-and-only premiere film snob Jean-Luc Godard, which lives rent-free in my head since I read it, and which I was reminded of as I read through the last chapters of this Part: "Do not smile at such passion inflamed by logic. One surely feels that what ensures its worth is that at each instant it is a matter of loving or dying."

D.S Films

I have finally finished Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, and I feel I will read this many more times in my life, hopefully understanding it more and more as I reread. Some of it did get quite complex and I'm sure went over my head towards the end there. Though it did hit me emotionally, and I was weeping while reading the afterword. The saddest and most beautiful afterword I have ever read. I shall be moving on to read Lila: An Inquiry into Morals soon, as well of course as Ullmann's Life in Code. I patiently look forwards to the big 'Pirsig/Quality' video, I feel as though I need something such as that to help me digest the more complex ideas discussed.

Lucas Regis

End of reread. Still my favorite part of the entire book. The way it ties together all of the different points of discussion from previous parts into a single whole is ingenious. The most important quote here imo comes in ch. 29. "Phaedrus' mind races on and on and then on further, seeing now at last a kind of evil thing, an evil deeply entrenched in himself, which pretends to try to understand love and beauty and truth and wisdom but whose real purpose is never to understand them, whose real purpose is always to usurp them and enthrone itself. Dialectic... the usurper. That is what he sees. The parvenu, muscling in on all that is Good and seeking to contain it and control it. Evil." It makes clear the central contradiction at the heart of ZMM. It's fundamentally a book about trying to logic yourself out of logic. Using the dialectic, Plato puts the Good below the True. With that same dialectic, Phaedrus attempt to put the True below the Good. But it never quite works. When it works, it feels uncertain (like the multiple different models of Quality in Part 3, all individually compelling but not quite capable of coming together); explanations of Quality are always too uncertain compared to the experience of Quality itself. Phaedrus' logic is described as a knife. A knife can only cut, it cannot heal. Dialectical explanations will always cut something out, and worse yet, will attempt to erase what is cut. When you put it into words, the Quality gets lost. More than any other, this part had me pondering what a Christian interpretation of ZMM would look like. By rejecting rationality, Pirsig inevitably enters the realm of religion. The idea that Quality is undefinable rhymes with the Christian idea (from what I understand) that God is similarly impossible to prove. You just need to have Faith, the Faith is sort of the point, right? I wonder. I was always told that was the case but I see fundamentalist Christians making up wild conjectures to try and "prove" the existence of God all the time. Maybe they're just falling into the same trap as Phaedrus, trying to define something they thought they knew was undefinable, for the sake of defending it from being destroyed.

halley

I have just finished an incredible journey, from the mountain timberline to the bottom of the ocean and back to the back of this book, finally removing the peony printed chinese bookmark that has accompanied me throughout the whole ride. I held the book to my chest and had to hold the window ledge to ground myself as I heaved dried cries, relieved to have reached the conclusions of the story but feeling the hole left by this pattern I've been living of reading this book with my coffee every afternoon, hungrily sipping the questions and ideas it sparked inside of me. I anticipate patching this hole with the book club threads I've been waiting to open until I were the person I became today, relics of conversations had just before I joined the patreon, a necessary rite of passage to consider myself a true connoisseur of quality, the spawn point of the kill the internet holy texts. From the first chapter I felt I should have been writing my reactions so as not to lose them to time, pages of thoughts and pure first reactions ignited in my mind unobscured by what would come next, but a stronger intuition convinced me that I should rather read it all the way through with no notes, underlining, or peeking at the threads. I suspected I would get too lost and stalled if I started marking the things that spoke to me, needing to trust instead that words would come later and they'd be enough. I'm abuzz with too many thoughts than I can comment on so I think I'll take some time to read your comments and find what makes sense to respond to. Or maybe I'll internalize the experience and put my energy toward the next book to come. The most unfortunate aspect of the patreon platform in my opinion is that the ones who've commented on a book club post don't have the option of being notified whenever there's a new comment unless it's a direct reply, which restricts the threads from being continually revived as active and timeless conversation places. I'll try to use this limitation as an opportunity to craft more personal reflections on individual comments then, as I know how exciting and validating this feels too. The end of chapter 32 felt like a warm hug tying up all the loose ends and making sense of the story with a wholesome ending- followed immediately by a sudden slap that was the reveal in the afterword, with a kiss on the forehead to finish it off. The many faces of truth, or what feels like it at least, which I think is saying the same thing anyway. Some of the synchronicities shocked me- from seeing one of the last words in the book be the same city in Sweden where my husband was born, where his own absent father was subject to the same electric therapy treatment as our protagonist, to catching the word "Chataqua" in an MF Doom song playing in the car yesterday, a word I don't think I've ever encountered before this book, and even a close friend telling me on the phone recently that when she moves back to the US soon she may end up living in Bozeman, where her new partner is from. I have lapped up this book like a thirsty animal emerging from hibernation and I think I need to write about it more to digest it all. I want to squeal about how brilliant it is with people who also know, and since I can't do that in person (unless...? KTI sleepover before or after one of the upcoming European shows??), I'll be checking back in with my kill the internet comrades here on the internet. I look forward to integrating the ideas into my being with the help of the kulturbärar that is CJ the X and those with an instinctual recognition of quality following closely behind!

Elen Lebet

I first read this book some 15 years ago and loved it, returning to it has been bittersweet, disappointing and worthwhile all at the same time. There's a pattern in schizophrenic patients, or those suffering from a paranoidal psychosis, or even in a real hard LSD trip - the overwhelming feeling that things are CONNECTED and SIGNIFICANT, whatever they may be. This was what stuck out to me the most during this reread - I felt like I'm witnessing a person struggling with paranoidal/schizophrenic ideation real-time, and, well, that's pretty much what's happening in the book, it's just unclear how aware the author is of this. Pirsig is flirting with insanity, and ain't nothing harder than to convince a madman with philosophical leanings that he's mad. I think a lot of Pirsig's reasonings are impressive-sounding delusions, the narrator sometimes points to how ridiculous Phaedrus' megalomania is, how huge the ego, how sure he is that he is the lone wise wolf among crowds of sheeple, but this self-awareness is fleeting and unexamined, the call of his Big Idea is stronger and more persuasive. The temptation of making a revolution in thought, a turn-over akin to Copernicus' accomplishment is so alluring, the threads of Pirsig's thought become so loose they are almost arbitrary. Dude is basically tripping his metaphysical balls off, and managing to be a contemptuous, hypocritical asshole while at it 🤷 And yet, despite all this, he is pointing to something that is worthwhile to take notice of. The message is simple enough, its just that sometimes we need frills and fancy words for simple messages to really land. Choose Good over Bad. Looking for meaning and asking why is usually a good idea. Being true and honest, looking beyond the superficial usually pays off. Life will kinda lead you to good things if you will look for good things. Simple, good, true messages. Might have skipped all the philosophical meanderings, most of whom are so vague its hard to argue against them, but then again, one might reduce the whole book to a pillow cover saying Be Good, it just wouldnt have much of an impact. I guess, like a true rhetorician and sophist, Pirsig provides persuasion and gumption to do the simple good things we already know we should do. He gives us a fervent, frantic, semi-coherent lecture that can spur us into action, and for that alone his work has value and quality. I sometimes think that it's so hard to do the simple good things, to strive for quality or arete or value or usefullness in the conditions we live in, we seek post-rational sources of gumption to get us going. It isn't enough to tell yourself to go outdoors, eat well, see people and be kind to actually do this, when you add some mysticism, some spirituality, some big-sounding ideas to the mix, it can seem more important to do these things, although they were the most important things all along. So yeah, long ramble, I guess what I'd tell my former awe-struck self after reading this for the first time, is to see what of all the feelings and thoughts this book generates is useful and applicable in everyday life. Quality precedes object and subject, form and substance, rational and classical thought. Ok, cool story bro, but what are you gonna do about it? Are you gonna call your grandma tomorrow because of this? Are you gonna take a stroll and stop to smell the roses? If so - Good. Otherwise you're at risk of being an uncritical listener to the bad kind of sophistry - words with little meaning.

Beck

I loved Part 4. Highly enjoyable to read, highly emotional. It was the easiest section to read so far—like coasting downhill to the conclusion. I loved the brutalist academic drama, I loved the absolute takedown of Aristotle & Plato, I loved the synthesis of these two characters into one person. This section made me retroactively much more sympathetic to the narrator throughout. (The one exception is his repeated underlying disdain for women… that felt legitimately bad. Came out most clearly when he used the word “womanish” as an insult to a male classmate, and makes me a little nervous having read the blurb for Lila; this flaw aside, the rest stands.) The crisis he alluded to and skirted around all throughout was expressed in full force, and the underlying tension was thrown into relief. How can he untangle this fantastic idea from the horrific circumstances that ran concurrent to it? His interactions with Chris were beautiful and totally heartbreaking. The scenes where he finally communicates, that quote, “I knew it,” fuck! Chris loved ‘Phaedrus’ and narrator is scared of that… until he accepts it. And it’s hopeful. “Or if he takes whatever dull job he’s stuck with—and they all are, sooner or later, dull—and, just to keep himself amused, starts to look for options of Quality, and secretly pursues these options, just for their own sake, thus making an art out of what he is doing, he’s likely to discover that he becomes a much more interesting person and much less of an object to the people around him because his Quality decisions change him too. And not only the job and not only him, but others too because the Quality tends to fan out like waves… My personal feeling is that this is how any further improvement of the world will be done: by individuals making Quality decisions and that’s all.” Before having reached this section, I was already noticing myself making small decisions like this in my very-rational very-much-not-my-personal-passion job, and it does make a difference. I’ve noticed a difference. It’s hard for me to feel motivated in my day job sometimes, but I do know that I feel better about myself and about life in general when I’m doing Quality work; it doesn’t take away my energy, it adds to it and sustains it. This book has given me the vocabulary to express that succinctly and incorporate it into my daily behavior. Pursuit of Quality is inherently valuable, and is not contained to the discrete act where it occurs. Out of curiosity a few weeks ago, I was doing some searching on Reddit to see what other people think about this book. I saw a lot of people in r/philosophy typically dismissing this book as “not a real example of analytical philosophy,” “not a serious book of philosophy,” and often people alluded to the fact that Pirsig refused to define his key term and said, “you can only take that so seriously.” It’s so interesting to me that these critiques are basically the point. Like it’s often said, modern day study of western philosophy really can be summarized as a series of footnotes to Plato and in this section Pirsig throws out Plato. When he latches onto the Presocratics and decides that they were the expression of Quality, essentially the road not taken, he doesn’t exactly have “evidence” for this, it’s just a STRONG FEELING, a big blank space with a lot of neon arrows pointing to it, which is basically his definition of Quality itself. And that’s the point for him—it can’t be proven via pure logical proof or tested with the scientific method, because it precedes these things; but you KNOW it’s there, and you can point to rational examples of it! Quality unifies rationality and emotion and requires both to comprehend it. Ultimately it’s good that r/philosophy doesn’t like the book—if they liked it, it wouldn’t have done what it set out to do. “Unifying rationality and emotion.” This is what the book itself does. It needs the emotional climax, it needs the messy personal drama and feelings, because without it there’s no Whole, there’s no Quality. So many philosophical texts are so hard to engage with because they exist in a vacuum… you have to do outside research to figure out an author’s baggage and put their “rationality” in context. This book gives you everything, front to back, and results in deep Quality. Immensely satisfying read. I’m excited to read it again.

Sam Jay

First off, the long description of horses and horse-ness on page 389 has cemented that Kentucky Route Zero 100% certainly takes inspiration from ZMM. I usually write my responses to these threads before reading the other comments. After I finally finished up with part 3 a few days ago, I read some comments pointing out that a lot of capitalist-leaning people love this book in particular because it justifies their worldview. I had no idea what they were talking about- I genuinely could not see it. But I did carry that mystery with me into reading part four. And oh boy, did I start to see it. Therefore, I present: WHY THIS BOOK MAY RESONATE WITH CAPITALIST-LEANING PEOPLE --Looking down on women in particular-- I recognize that this is coming out swinging. I'm not trying to say that all people that see value capitalism are sexists or misogynists, I'm truly not. But I grew up around a looooot of capitalist-leaning people, so I have a particular perspective. In raising the value of the individual self, they all tend to devalue any collective that they do not personally identify with or find worth in. This can manifest in NIMBYism, racial prejudice (buried at various depths), and, particularly for the white men (both peers and parents), mild to moderate sexism. By injecting this book with that tone (whether it was mostly coincidental or reflect actual beliefs of Pirsig), no wonder it draws them in: -"Sometimes, under her old-ladyish way of speaking he thought he detected a secret canniness, as though like a Delphic oracle she said things with hidden meanings, but he could never be sure." (p. 343-344) -As compared to: "The examining committee included... the chairman, who was a professor of ancient Greek! That one rang bells." (p. 345) ---Notice how the ancient Greek scholar in Montana is just an old lady who waters the plants sometimes, and the man in Chicago is an exciting asset? -"There she is in the door watching us. Lonely. She probably doesn't understand that with a look like that she isn't going to be lonely long." (p.364) ---I understand it more in context, but standing alone it's very infantilizing. -"He seemed to look down on Phaedrus with a womanish peevishness as a spoiler of what should have been a nice experience." (p. 393) ---*to self* common vernacular was different back then, common vernacular was different back then, common vernacular- -"A woman at another table is looking at me angrily. She opens her mouth as if to say something. I turn a heavy gaze on her for a long time until she closes her mouth and goes back to eating." (p. 415) ---"Shut your mouth, woman." Let me ask you this- what is Robert Pirsig's wife's name? What is the name of the mother of his child? Why is it that, though Sylvia received much dialogue and generally positive description, the deep psychological dives are reserved for either her husband, or to the two of them as a collective? I'm not trying to say that "men>women" is a theme of this book, but I do want to point out that someone attracted to that theme could find things here for them. ---Sense of the present state (ie, the way things are, no need for massive change) being inherently superior--- In the context of the whole book, these quotes are defensible and may have opposite meaning. Out of context, as quotes are often taken, they have other meanings. This is underlying thruline in Phaedrus' discussions of quality (wherein it is neutral, and by definition in the immediate present), but creeps into the physical world in (in my opinion) obtuse ways: -"We arrive at the turnoff to Crater Lake and go up a neat road into the National Park- clean, tidy and preserved. It really shouldn't be any other way, but this doesn't win any prizes for Quality either. It turns it into a museum. This is how it was before the white man came- beautiful lava flows, and scrawny trees, and not a beer can anywhere- but now that the white man is here, it looks fake. Maybe the National Park Service should set just one pile of beer cans in the middle of all that lava and then it would come to life. The absence of beer cans is distracting." (p. 350). ---Fuuuuuuck you. If I take a step back I can see suggestions what he's trying to do narratively (maybe using it as an allegory for static philosophies that exert too much control over modern thought), but my gut reaction is, "Fuck you." -The comparison of the primary vs secondary America beginning on page 366, while profound in the cause of loneliness ("when they look at you, you're just kind of like an object. You don't count. You're not what they're looking for."), can very easily be taken out of context to imply an inherent and static division between people in different geographies. -"God, I don't want to have any more enthusiasm for big programs full of social planning for big masses of people that leave individual quality out... Everyone's just about out of gumption. And I think it's about time to return to the rebuilding of THIS American resource- individual worth. There are political reactionaries who've been saying something close to this for years. I'm not one of them, but to the extent that they're talking about real individual worth and not just an excuse for giving more money to the rich, they're right. We DO need a return to individual integrity, self-reliance and old-fashioned gumption." (p. 367-368) ---A lot to unpack here. a) Historical context is important. This book was written in the 60's/70's, when there were a lot of famously failed/mixed success social projects (where a lot of neighborhoods being called "the projects" came from). The context of 2022 is what makes the first sentence supremely icky. b) Gosh, doesn't this sound straight out of Fox news? c) Let me tell you something: "the rich" don't ever think that they're THAT "the rich." New money think that they fall into Arete self-improvement, so things that give them more money aren't giving things to "the rich." Old money capitalists don't think that they're "the rich" either, because while they may come from past money, they're also making MORE of it, also falling into the Arete trajectory. To them, the REAL "the rich" are the children of wealth who do nothing they deem as valuable with it, often artistic or serving some social good, always without the feverish intent to make the big-money number go bigger. We shouldn't give THOSE "the rich" any money because it gives them a leg up in a game they're not even playing. I wish these people would take up fishing instead. THE FUCKING HECTOR STORY (p. 384-386) I've read the Iliad several times, and I've always hated this part of it. Hector prioritizes his own ability to maximize Arete over the abilities of his wife and child. Sounds familiar. To conclude this section (as I have near-completely run out of steam and/or gumption), I can close with a quote that resonated with me, wherein Pirsig arguable rebuts the need for prioritization of the individual: "He had built empires of scientific capability to manipulate the phenomena of nature into enormous manifestations of his own dreams of power and wealth- but for this he had exchanged an empire of understanding of equal magnitude: an understanding of what it is to be a part of the world, and not an enemy of it." (p. 387) --- Other things that stood out for non-angry reasons: "The answer doesn't seem to satisfy him. But he can't seem to say what's wrong with it. A sudden despair wave hits, like that at dawn. I LIE to him. That's what's wrong." (p. 346), finally acknowledging the lies he tells to both Chris and himself. "In cultures such as the Chinese, where subject-predicate relationships are not rigidly defined by grammar, one finds a corresponding absence of rigid subject-object philosophy. One finds that in Judeo-Christian culture, in which the Old Testament "Word" had an intrinsic sacredness of its own, men are willing to sacrifice and live by and die for words. In this culture, a court of law can ask a witness to tell "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God," and expect the truth to be told." (p.359) "They are just ghosts, immortal gods of the modern mythos which appear to us to be real because we are IN that mythos. But in reality they are just as much an artistic creation as the anthropomorphic Gods they replaced." (p. 382) "'Happiness and good are not objective terms. We cannot deal with them scientifically. And since they aren't objective they just exist in your mind. So if you want to be happy just change your mind. Ha-ha, ha-ha.'" (p. 391) -"When a shepherd goes to kill a wolf, and takes his dog to see the sport, he should take care to avoid mistakes. The dog has certain relationships to the wolf the shepherd may have forgotten." (p. 400) -"But Phaedrus is no shepherd either and the strain of behaving like one is killing him." (p.403) -"'It's so different.' 'What?' 'Everything. I could never see over your shoulders before.' ...That's true. I never realized it. All this time he's been staring into my back." (p. 422) From the afterword, discussing Chris' death: -"We dismiss them as superstition because we interpret GHOST or SPIRIT as some sort of material ectoplasm, when in fact they may not mean any such thing at all." (p. 429)

haw

reposting my comment that also disappeared for some reason 🥲 ___ Something has been gnawing at me in regards to quality during the last leg of reading this book. being a techie, a lot of this book really is in line with how I approached and perceived technology. but in becoming more critical of that industry, ive become.. sensitive? Towards any ideas regarding ‘innovation for innovations sake’ or ‘art for arts sake’, like these pursuits are somehow directly correlated with the betterment of humanity. (Not to plug myself but i wrote about this a while ago and its easier to link than to rewrite my entire essay in this comment section lol
https://nullandvoid.substack.com/p/innovating-in-a-vacuum) I think this is why im not even a little bit surprised that this book is so appealing to the likes of capitalists (and subsequently technocrats). I recently watched summer of soul, the music doc about the Harlem festival in 69, which happened to coincide with the moon landing. When the festival attendees were asked about what they thought of man landing on the moon, they basically said: yeah thats cool and all, but whats the point? What is on the moon? Why didn’t they spend that money to ease our suffering? Page 266: «romantic quality in terms of this analogy, isn’t any part of the train. it’s the leading edge of the engine, a two dimensional surface of no real significance unless you understand that the train isn’t a static entity at all. a train isn’t a train if it isn’t going anywhere. in the process of examining the train and subdividing it into parts we’ve inadvertently stopped it, so it really isn’t a train we are examining.» The capitalist and the technocrat use the world merely as a playground to pursue innovation for innovation sake. What happens then, is shit like the 2008 financial crisis, or.. *gestures broadly at the tech industry today* that. Or, as the people in Harlem said in 1969, you get man on the moon whilst millions are suffering. The quote on page 266 is to me is a compelling argument against creating art just for its own sake. He clearly states that there must be a purpose. man cannot go to the moon just because landing on the moon would be sick, there has to be a concrete REASON. But as we know, the space race was a dick measuring competition between the soviets and the americans, and so it DID have a purpose, but the purpose was just stupid. are stupid reasons also considered to be a train leading nowhere? can something be quality while having an imperfect/shallow/bad/not-quality purpose? was the moonlanding quality, despite it only being a dick measuring competition with the soviets? Page 334: «man didn’t invent religion, man are invented by religion. Men invent responses to quality, and among these responses is an understanding of what they themselves are. You know something and the quality stimulus hits and then you try to define the quality stimulus but to define it all youve got to work with is what you know. So your definition is based on what you know» I feel like this quote answers my question but at the same time not. If the stupid purpose towards quality is just a manmade response, how does quality address that having a bad purpose, isnt quality? from where I stand, I dont see a compelling argument for how the pursuit of quality will meet the needs and the desires of people (i.e meeting peoples material needs, making them lead healthy and happy lives [iknow happiness is a complicated term but for the sake of simplicity ill rely on the colloquial understanding of it]). And if quality doesnt, well then. No wonder the capitalists love it so much. And if so, the pursuit of quality is incomplete without a purpose towards the betterment of the human condition.

Kylie

4th part’s the charm Let’s start with thought and Aristotle. Since the man popped into existence, the Western world has followed Aristotelian logic. It has a few basic tenants, which can be simplified to: - “A is A” - “A is not non-A” - “A cannot be both A and non-A” Aristotle himself called this last one “the most certain of all principles”. Now let’s look toward paradoxical logic, toward China, India, and the Tao. The crux of paradoxical thinking is that all of reality is made up of contradictions. -“X is both A and non-A” (at the same time and in the same relationship) - “My words are very easy to know and easy to practice; but there is no one who is able to know or practice them.” - “The Tao does nothing, so there is nothing the Tao does not do.” Thus thought, in paradoxical logic, can only bring us the knowledge that we know nothing. Reality cannot contain these contradictions, so the logic follows that the contradictions are in our perceiving mind. God, the Tao, transcends our ability to know. So what is the Tao? If we cannot know it with a correct thought, isn’t it unreachable? (a very Aristotelian way of looking at things) We find the Tao and God through the right way of living, rather than clinging to a rightful, ultimate thought. Thus it’s evolving and we are able to achieve oneness by action. Paradoxical logic lead the Eastern thinkers to a tolerance for different thought, since the Tao was not to be found in any one ultimate truth. Those who arrived at different formulations were acceptable, because salvation wasn’t in a true thought, as is illustrated by the three men who described an elephant while in the dark, one feeling the ears (its like a fan), one feeling the trunk (its like a pipe), and one feeling the legs (its like a pillar). The Tao is in action. Man isn’t meant to think the right thought, but to act rightly. The transformation of man, rather than correct dogma or scientific truth, is the ultimate goal. I don’t know where I fall on this divide. Western Aristotelian thinking lead to the opposite. Man was meant to think rightly, believe rightly, and while action was still important, emphasis was placed on thought. It lead to dogmas, to scientific discovery, and also to heretics and the Crusades. Belief in God without living like Him was considered better than living like God without belief. So in Eastern thought the Tao is a moving target we cannot think and speak of with authority, but we can live the Tao. The Tao and God are in each action we take throughout the day, when we maintenance our motorcycle, for instance. Pirsig was blending these concepts, or daring to try. I’m not sure how well I grasped his thoughts on Aristotle, but it seemed to be founded on the split between Eastern and Western thought, placing reason rather than “quality” on a throne. It’s changed the way I think about my daily life. Typically my life involves a LOT of thoughts, mine and others. My attention on my actions can be cursory or downright negligent. It’s hard to find issue with that when so much of my free time is taken up with huge ponderous thoughts that inspire or excite or entertain me. Or rather, it WAS. Pirisg’s fourth part seemed a call to action, literally. My heart broke when I read about Chris. I wish I had known what he said, I wish he was still with his family. When I lost someone, I found myself looking at the chair where he used to sit, or scrolling through my voicemails on birthdays or graduations, and seeing a hole ripped there. Patterns where someone has left a hole. Where are they now? I’m happy Pirsig seems to have found a measure of peace and happiness with his daughter. Grief is a strange thing, but it seems it’s a storm he’s determined to try and live through in the epilogue. I’m interested to see his next work, and if it lingers there. Forgive any mistakes in my Aristotelian and paradoxical logic dialogue, i’m no expert :) This was a great read, and I’m happy I got to be a part of this bookclub!

Sammy Langit

Part 4 was a really beautiful read; there were a lot of climactic dimensions on which you could end up cheering for Pirsig. Not only did he have this huge breakthrough with himself and his son in the narrative, on a meta level he found the medium with the most quality in its ability to host his story and ideas, and unifying those speaks to the overall theme of unifying art and science. Parts that stuck out here and there: “What comes through even more strongly is megalomania, delusions of grandeur, of complete loss of ability to understand the effect of what he was saying on others. He had become so caught up in his own world of Quality metaphysics he couldn’t see outside it anymore, and since no one else understood this world, he was already done for.” It's kind of tragic that he can see how his thoughts aren’t coming across but is condemned to keep trying to explain anyway. His discovery of this indefinable unifying Quality has the impact of an atomic bomb in his life, but the only parts of that which people outside of him can see just look like the shrapnel from his mind breaking. We’ve seen how that hurts Chris, anyway. “But in the secondary America we’ve been through… what was real, what was around us dominated. And so there wasn’t much feeling of loneliness… Technology is blamed for a lot of this loneliness, since the loneliness is certainly associated with the newer technological devices… but I hope it’s been made plain that the real evil isn’t the objects of technology but the tendency of technology to isolate people into lonely attitudes of objectivity.” My note for this part just says 'felt this fucking strongly as a 2022 zoomer', and, yeah. I assume everyone here has seen the Bo Burnham video, and that'll say things about this better than I can. “What’s really demanded in the Church of Reason is not ability, but inability. Then you are considered teachable. A truly able person is always a threat.” This, combined with the section about sheep and social order, threw off some edgelord stink which surprised me. I guess this attitude is still a facet of the overall truth, and it makes sense as a part rather than a whole. Balancing this thinking with humility and ego death during motorcycle maintenance helps the narrator separate himself from the Joker. “What I am is a heretic who’s recanted, and thereby in everyone’s eyes saved his soul. Everyone’s eyes but one, who knows deep down inside that all he has saved is his skin. I survive mainly by pleasing others.” This part could surely speak to multiple identities, but it reminded me most of queer identity and self-silencing. Whether it's strapping on the familysona for the holidays or sitting apart from a partner on public transport, queer people know this song if that makes sense. “We’re related to each other in ways we never fully understand, maybe hardly understand at all. He was always the real reason for coming out of the hospital. To have let him grow up alone would have been really wrong. In the dream too he was the one who was always trying to open the door. I haven’t been carrying him at all. He’s been carrying me!” The narrator’s life circumstances have been pushing his son to be stronger and smarter than he thought possible and here’s the realization. Chris, in pushing his dad for authenticity and connection, is rising to the challenge of his young life and it’s kind of beautiful. Pirsig recognized the cinematic parts of his life extremely correctly.

mouse

This comment is going to be very long and maybe not as philosophical as others, so I hope that’s ok. Sooo, I read the 25th anniversary edition, and in the foreword Robert mentions that in this edition, when Phaedrus is narrating, there's a change in font, and in the original edition there wasn't. I wonder what others thought and how they interpreted the ending, whether they read the version without the font change or the one with. It honestly helped me see the distinction between Phaedrus and Robert, so it was helpful to me and I liked it, because I don’t always pick up on subtle stuff like that. (I kind of wish I hadn't been spoiled to the ending a bit, but it was alright.) What did everyone think about that? I think about the Quality Train all the time now, a rush of wind in your face when you’re in the present moment out front, when I'm doing just about anything. It’s helped me live my life with more gumption than I previously had, or even thought I could have. I find myself moving and thinking more purposefully and authentically. I really appreciate that visual. “It’s so different.” “What?” “Everything. I never could see over your shoulders before.” … That’s true. I never realized it. All this time he’s been staring into my back. “What do you see?” I ask. “It’s all different.’” (Page 422) Ahh oh no Robert has taken Chris on this long road trip for days and it turns out Chris hasn’t seen the path the whole time! This made me feel pretty sad because of course he hadn’t, and like Robert, I never thought about that either. Chris had missed out on so much, no wonder he wanted to explore areas off the road – the scenery goes by so much faster to the side of you when travelling on a highway than it does when you’re looking forward. He couldn’t see the potholes or twists or traffic that Robert was avoiding for his benefit. A stunning metaphor that really paid off, I think. As Sammy Langit said in a previous comment: “Pirsig recognized the cinematic parts of his life extremely correctly.” Totally agree. “The Church of Reason, like all institutions of the System, is based not on individual strength but upon individual weakness. What’s really demanded in the Church of Reason is not ability, but inability. Then you are considered teachable. A truly able person is always a threat.” (Page 402) I have found that when I have been in school, especially when I was studying music education, I learned more about what I was doing when I was explaining it. I think it’s common to hear that kind of thing from teachers, and this quote reminded me of that. I think that being truly able and knowing, and learning from yourself and your students the tools that you can use to teach almost subverts the Church of Reason maybe? Or maybe just begins to? If I’m understanding that right. I think that’s what Phaedrus was getting at when he was trying to teach Quality in Montana – he was trying to learn from his students, from a place of already knowing more than basically anyone about his theories about Quality. And he was a threat because of that, because he was the one still discovering it. He was treated with hostility a lot throughout when he was trying to teach something so contrary to the Church of Reason. I could be misunderstanding that though. “Or the hedge in front of the apartment building with a few square feet of grass behind it. A few square feet of grass, after Montana. If they just left out the hedge and grass it would be all right. Now it serves only to draw attention to what has been lost.” (Page 404)

mouse

(I’m splitting into two comments lol) I recently read The Body Is Not An Apology by Sonya Renee Taylor, and I found that her ideas about finding Radical Self-Love really felt similar to Robert’s quest for Quality. This is from a list of Unapologetic Agreements, the goal of which is to engage in radical self love conversations with ourselves and others: "10. Practice unapologetic inquiry. Part of helping people sort through their ideas and beliefs is to ask questions about those ideas. That includes asking *ourselves* hard questions: "Why do I believe this? What am I afraid of? What am I gaining or losing by trying on a new perspective?" The answers that stick with us over time are the answers we come up with ourselves. Good questions get us to good answers." (Page 90) This made me think of this quote from ZMM: “Watch it the way you watch a line when fishing and before long, as sure as you live, you’ll get a little nibble, a little fact asking in a timid, humble way if you’re interested in it. That’s the way the world keeps on happening. Be interested in it.” (Page 319) So Sonya Renee Taylor is saying that asking questions of ourselves is a healthy way to maintain ourselves. Being curious about understanding ourselves, others, the way the world works, helps us stay on the Quality train, by keeping us present and curious. Becoming a scientist of human life as a whole by hypothesizing and wondering why we feel the way we do, and why others feel the way they do, and asking productive curious questions, is a form of social maintenance, I think. It’s not only fishing for answers in ourselves, but also fishing for answers from others, in a patient, loving way, that creates Quality. From what I gathered from ZMM, Robert doesn’t talk a whole lot about social maintenance. Maybe I’m wrong about that though? It all seemed very inwardly focused, which isn’t a bad thing, it’s a very important thing, so when he finally understands more about finding Quality in his relationship with Chris at the end, it’s very satisfying. So I liked thinking about interacting with Quality as an outward act, in helping the community of humanity find inner peace, as well as yourself. For me, connecting with both books really helped complete the idea of Quality and how to apply it. I hope this makes sense. To finish off this super long comment: I found the description of the drive south through California quite arresting - I made that drive from Arcata to San Francisco and back many times when I lived there. It brought back very intense memories, and frankly it made my heart race even more than it had been as Phaedrus appeared. I was reliving a very different me from a very different time, and for many reasons a person I don’t recognize at all. It felt like me and Robert and our ghosts were all careening down the highway together which was just a whole lot lol. It is already such an emotional ending full of hurt and fear. I’m glad it ended in a place where Robert and Chris seemed to understand each other more, that was such a relief to read, very satisfying and hopeful. Especially hearing about the heartbreak of Chris’ death just a few years after, so fucking devastating. I used to walk out to the edge of the water at the beaches at night sometimes – the ocean does not care about you, the bottom is very deep, and there is no horizon line when it’s night, there’s just the rhythm of the waves and it’s deafening. You are a threat to your own insignificant self when you make that choice and walk out into the ocean in the dark. That kind of curiosity can absolutely get you killed. So the end was very visceral to me lol. Thought it was very excellent. This was a very fun experience, seeing everyone’s thoughts and learning together!! I’m very grateful for this opportunity. Looking forward to the livestream and Lila!

pol

I took down my "PART 4: Anger and Alternatives" post about the book. I don't think that it was in bad faith or inappropriate or anything like that. And it is totally true. But, it was too emotional for this forum (a chill and nice discussion of a book). I thought a lot about this, and asked CJ The X whether or not I should take down the post, but I ultimately decided to make the call myself anyway. On one hand, you never know how a book will hit someone. This one hit me square in the feels, but not in a good way. I was incapable of seeing past my fury. My post was my processing of that anger. Afterwards I felt A LOT better and was able to consider the ideas of hte book unencumbered with all the strong feelings that I was bringing to the table. Seeing this whole process is not a bad thing. As I say, you never know when it might happen, and I went through a pretty crazy emotional roller coaster that you can feel from my posts. Knowing how this book hit me gives some context to the posts - it makes the emotional valence make more sense. Providing the answer to: Why is nice dad freaking out about this book? Oh the other hand, it totally changes the vibe of the room. Once someone explodes, even if it is warranted, it is hard to recover from the awkwardness and everyone is on pins and needles. Because we are kind and don't want to accidentally hurt anyone. It's a beautiful caring thing to want to tread carefully after such an event. I think that the conversational flow and chill vibes are more important than my honest explosion. So, I took down the rant. If anyone wants to read it, feel free to check it out here: https://gnosticant.blogspot.com/2022/07/part-4-anger-and-alternatives.html I redacted some personal info because it's public-public. CONTENT WARNING: that blog was used for creative writing practice like 20 years ago and it is mostly Bad Writing but it is ALL FICTION. Some of it would give a good person the wrong idea. I was exploring fiction in a confessional style told by terrible people. Most of it is bad, some of it is ok. Just... not real, but pretending to be real. Pretty bad but some glimmers of ok. That's not why the link is there, it's just context. :)

pol

I cannot present "Pol's Theory of Dualistic Metaphysics *Or: How Two Connected Definable Concepts are Better than One Undefineable Concept*" as promised. Because I found something better! That theory is less good than this one because it includes a fundamental misunderstanding of Quality. ;) So, the new idea doesn't have a name. But if pushed I would call it: Reliabilist Knowledge Theory of the Metaphysics of Quality. Which is cumbersome and bad, but fairly accurate. It's long, but I hope it is interesting! It took me to fun places, and will continue to do so I think. I cut out the Paraesthetic Relationships section because it was too long already. I might post that as a separate comment or something because I don't want it to take up the oxygen from the main idea. NOOB IDEA DISCLAIMER This is a nascent idea, I have only been thinking about it for about 24 hours. It probably has obvious errors and mistakes and incompatible contradictions in it, but I want to get it out there so others can help me poke holes in it. Onto the show... I found Quality! (or at least a version of it) Here's what happened. First I had to unload some book-related emotional baggage. It was intense, and exhausting, and afterwards I watched Kipo and the Age of the Wonderbeasts with my kids, meditated during a thunderstorm, and slept like the dead. I can neither confirm nor deny the use of intoxicants in the winding down procedure. This morning after I felt newly minted. I was dealing with the weekly garbage in the rain-drenched morning sunshine and thinking about Quality and the conversation I was having with CJ in my Part III commentary. My last thought was that we should stop arguing about subjectivity and instead consider the philosophy of knowledge. I asserted that Quality was not knowable because it wasn't definable. I posted a link to a short philosophy video that covered Reliablism. A theory developed by Alvin Goldman about how knowledge works. Why/How do we believe things? It's this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z8sDiaY65Y Quick summary: Reliablism is a theory of knowledge that asserts that every belief is the result of a Reliable Belief-Forming Process (RBFP). Using this framework, my question was: What RBFP did Persig or CJ use to believe Quality exists? Let me use an example to make this less abstract. If I hear a creaking noise (subjective hearing), I don't believe that it's real unless I ALSO get other info. Like if someone says that a door is open, or if I see a door moving, or if I happen to have heard this same creak a bunch of other times... The point is that my RBFP for unfamilar noises does not form a Belief from a single hearing event. It takes more than that (for me). On the other hand, if I see a car heading toward me, I don't need any more information. I believe it instantly, I get out of the way. My RBFP for 'is that oncoming car real' is much simpler. I just need sight and the sense of being in its path - I don't need any other senses or a second opinion from a trusted third party. The belief is formed and I act on it. Everybody has different Reliablity requirements. For some, just one bit of evidence is enough to form a belief. For others, they will touch a hot stove twice just to make sure (one touch is not reliable enough to form a belief: https://xkcd.com/242/). And the senses have different reliablity levels for different experiences. To form a "is that car going to hit me" belief, seeing is more reliable than smelling. To form a "is the food done" belief, smelling is more reliable than hearing (depending how you cook and what food it is, etc). And these are all different for different people and different skill levels etc etc etc. The point is, you get all this data from your senses, combined with your lived experience and personality, and it all gets processed up in your head and forms a belief... or just stays as a nascent thought, an idea, a possibility. Ok, so Quality. What if Quality wasn't a value or an attribute... what if it was a Sense? Like sight or touch? What if it was just another source of information for the RBFP itself? What would that look like? I love art by Abby Howard. When I have a subjective experience of her artwork, I am using my sense of Sight. I believe the image exists. I am using my sense of analytical analysis (comparing it to other things, placing it in the context of other beliefs). I believe it is genuinely her art, recently made, etc. I believe the image is genuine Abby Howard art. Neither of these senses are detecting the "I LIKE IT" of the art. Do I like it a lot or a little? What sense am I using to interrogate that? My other senses are just experiencing the objective existence and attributes of the art - they say nothing about whether or not I like it or how much. But I do like it. I like a lot. Let's try "Quality" as the "Sense" and see if it fits. I am using my sense of Quality to determine how much I like the art, it's "THIS IS GOOD"-ness. Quality is one of many components of my RBFP for art. And "I love it" is a belief. Why do I believe that I love this art? I use my sense of Quality to form my belief. Do I need any other data to make that call? No not for this art... Well, I might like it less if I thought it was a counterfeit. Or if the subject matter was something traumatic or painful. But mostly, no, it's just Quality. Still, I can have just a slight Quality response (I like it just a little) to art, and the opinion of my Father will make a big difference. The artistic opinions of my father have "High Reliablity" in my RBFP for art Quality. If he really likes art, his Quality assessment will influence mine. His love of a piece of art will affect my love of it too. I will love it mostly because he loves it. This is not controversial: "I love this painting, My grandfather brought it home from Paris and he loved looking at it. It reminds me of him." I think that Cancelation does a similar thing on the other side. If an artist or musician is revealed to having done some really reprehensible shit, it affects my belief that I love the art. It affects my love of the art. It doesn't affect the craft of the art (it's still a good song), but it does affect my "do I like it" belief. These other subjective experiences are not very Reliable for liking something though. So they just nudge the needle for me (unless what the artist did triggers you deeply, then maybe it doesn't matter how much Quality you detect, you will not love it.) But for some others, who are deeply committed to activism of whatever the bad man did, the Cancelation data is HUGE, it can annhilate their Quality belief, or... does it change it... (more on that later). A World Without Quality So that bit where Persig asserts that a world without Quality is a world that is dull and boring and terrible... my reading of that was that he was saying that if this mystical "cause" were to disappear, so would tasty food and beautiful movies and walks on the beach. That was not what he was saying. He was saying that all those things still exist, you are just blind to their "THIS IS GOOD"ness. You are unable to deeply love anything because you can't sense it. You can kinda fake it? You can form a Belief (with low reliability) that you like a thing because it's nicely made, and does its job, and it's durable. And if the people you trust also like it, that will add some more Reliability to the belief. But it won't be very Reliable, right? There is no replacing that sense of I LIKE IT that you get from the sense of Quality. It cannot spark joy. That is what Marie Kondo was talking about! Quality. And Depression! Your Quality is muted. You are unable to access your sense of Quality, so nothing is Good. Everything is still everything, but there's no Quality anymore. Not because the world or the things in it are lacking, instead it is because you are blind to it. This concept is doing work for me here, it's got legs. I am very excited to explore it... Subjective/Objective Is the sense of sight subjective? The experience of seeing is subjective, clearly, but Sight itself (the sense) is objective. It's a process using organs to gather photons, and it results in the experience of seeing. It is the most reliable source of data for "sight" beliefs. Hearing is the most reliable for "sound" beliefs. Quality is the most reliable for "liking it" beliefs. Quality is no more subjective than any of the other RBFP sensory sources. But it is weird, it's like trying to decide if Reason or Logic is subjective. Or what organ is used for the sense of the passage of time. So there might be some work to be done here, but frankly... determining the subjective/objective category of things is kind of tedious. I am not sure it tells us anything useful. People use it as a tool to scold people for false beliefs. "that's just subjective, it's not real" - this isn't in my scope of interest. If y'all want to debate the subjective/objective line, go forth, but for me it just feels like the philosophical version of playing with a fidget cube. Kinda fun but ultimately pointless. Goodness/Badness I can use sight to detect darkness. I can use hearing to detect quiet. How does "magnitude" work with Quality? Is a "low Quality" thing "horrible"? Hating something is pretty high magnitude of response. What if Quality isn't "I LIKE IT", but it is "IT MOVES ME". In any direction. "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so". It is our Quality experience of something that moves us. A low Quality response isn't "this thing is trash", a low Quality response would be "I don't care". It can exist or not, I do not give shits. A High Quality response would be I care a lot that it exists or doesn't, it moves me, it feels like it is [a part of who I am]/[attacking my very person]. A world with this in it is [greater than the sum of its parts]/[made worse by its very existence]. Ultimate Quality magnitude beliefs of "I don't want to exist in a world without it" or "I cannot exist in a world with it, it must be destroyed, or I will destroy myself in the process" In this framing, hatred and rage are not "low Quality" they are extremely high. I am not sure this all works, but let's keep heading in this direction and see what we find... why stop there. Why can't Quality have "flavors?" What if "Love" is like "Sweet" and "Sad" is like "Sour" and "Hate" is like "Spicy"? A Quality response might be very complex, a mix of loving and sadness and a little pain. Why would Quality necessarily be less complex than taste or smell? Why to I deeply love some things, but not all the time? Definability I am not totally convinced that this take on Quality is undefinable. Or at least, it is no more definable than "Sight" or "Hearing" (which are also complicated to define). Those are easier since one of the organs used in the process is obvious (eyes, ears). But it's not just your eyes or just your ears that are required for Sight or Hearing, there is also the complicated machinery of the brain. But other well-accepted senses fall into the category of Quality, like "Chronoception (sense of the passage of time)" or "Proprioception (the sense of your body's configuration in space)". Those senses don't have obvious organs to point at and say "that is the sense of using your X sensory organ". Quality is like those, it is the "Sense of What Moves You". Like, let's just do a little taxonomic exercise and list the senses and what they do, and see how Quality fits into that set: tseo: "the subjective experiece of" I use Sight for tseo [seeing] the [image] I use Sound for tseo [hearing] the [sound] I use Touch for tseo [touching] the [texture] I use Smell for tseo [smelling] the [scent] I use Taste for tseo [tasting] the [flavor] Those are straighforward, the others get wacky because our language of it is crude: I use Chronoception for tseo [perceiving the duration of] the [event] I use Proprioception for tseo [feeling] the [movement, force, and position of my body] Awkward but not unworkable. I think it is more a problem of language than concept. And finally: I use Quality for tseo [being moved by] the [existence of it] I don't know about you, but I find that very satisfying. And I think this is where it dives into metaphysics. If I am perceiving its _existence_ with this sense, then Persig's argument is that I am perceiving the essential it-ness of the thing. Not just one aspect of the thing, but its "everything". The aspect which allows it to exist AT ALL. I am tapping into or connecting with its essential nature. So then... God. I suspect that people are using Quality to form their belief in God. That same sense they use to form a Belief that they like something, is the same sense they are using to Believe that God exists. For them, Quality is all that is requied to form the Belief. For me, I need more. I need data from other subjective experience to form the Belief, but they do not. My RBFP for the existence of God requires more data than theirs does. Many people make value judgements of others based on how much or little they need to believe something. Art snobs don't like something ONLY because of their Quality sense. It needs to be rare, or old, or made by someone in france, or... who knows. It's basically what "snob" means, it is someone that requires more than just Quality to form a Quality Belief. A food snob. A wine snob. Yeah it fits. An athiest is an "existence of god" snob. Quality isn't good enough for me. It is not a big leap to get from "essential nature" to God. If you are accessing the "essential nature" of things when you are MOVED BY them, it is pretty freaking mystical. Even for infidel meatbags like me. I am not able to make that leap, but I could totally understand if it isn't for others. I was talking with my wife about this (she is muslim), and she was pondering if Quality was the sense that God created to lead you to Him. Like, everyone has their own sense, and it is different, but following it will lead you to God. It's a kind of holy-purpose-sense. I think this would resonate with a lot of people, and if I am going to be completely honest down to the meaty cockles of my atheist heart: My experience of Quality is the holiest thing I know. When I have the experience of Quality with art, or a place, or whatever and I am moved by it and get that spark of joy or deep satisfaction of I LOVE THIS, it's the closest thing to a religious experience that I know of. A Path not a Wall For me, a good idea is one that leads me to new places. I can follow it like a story and it doesn't contradict itself, it just keeps leading to new places. A bad idea is like a wall. It just stops. I hit a contradiction or a "it just is" kind of response and it doesn't lead to anything else. My interpretation of Quality when I was reading the book was a wall. It didn't lead anywhere. It was frustrating and I didn't get it. This version of Quality is not exactly what Persig was using, but I think it's at least a sibling. And I think that discussing the difference between my idea and his will be productive instead of reductive. And even if there isn't much daylight between this idea and "Persig Concept of Quality", there is still a lot to chew on here. What about passion? What even is Artistic Creation? Why do you believe that you will make something with Quality? Are you putting your Quality into it? what does that even mean? Are you opening a portal to some kind of divinity and letting it seep in? Or are you giving it your own ineffable Quality? Does it come from you? Are you then depleted of it? What would that look like? How does that work with the hateful shit? When we are evaluating Quality, what are we evaluating _really_? Passion? Artistic creation "it must exist or I will die making it", engaging with "nascent or potential" Quality? what does that even mean... this is fun!

teacupful

Doing my best to catch up! I had never read this book and really didn’t know much about it at all, so my biggest surprise so far is that (especially once we get to Quality) it reminds me of the first time I read C. S. Lewis' Surprised By Joy. It has been along time since I read joy, but now I'm tempted to finish them side by side. "The surest way of spoiling a pleasure was to start examining your satisfaction. But if so, it followed that all introspection is in one respect misleading. In introspection we try to look 'inside ourselves' and see what is going on. But nearly everything that was going on a moment before is stopped by the very act of our turning to look at it. Unfortunately this does not mean that introspection finds nothing. On the contrary, it finds precisely what is left behind by the suspension of all our normal activities; and what is left behind is mainly mental images and physical sensations. The great error is to mistake this mere sediment or track or byproduct for the activities themselves."

Adison

i am so glad that i read this book and engaged with these discussions even though i was 2 months late. you all have beautiful minds (thank you pol for making me have multiple conversations with myself) now into the good stuff this part made me FEEL!!! this whole book made me feel. and i love feeling!! i love that feelings are integral part of the narrative and the philosophy. i really enjoyed the way that this theory not only has room for emotion, but allows emotion to be one of its driving forces. im reminded of the alllegory about the horses (chapter 30) in which plato describes the white horse (logic, reason) and the black horse (passion, emotion). it highlights how often emotions are considered unimportant and irrelevant, especially in academic pursuits. so to propose a new way of thinking that not only includes emotion but prioritizes it, is revolutionary. and i think this is why is was able to connect with so deeply. as cj said above, the beauty and emotion of the prose is integral to understanding the whole thing. what i initially thought was hypocrisy or misunderstanding, i know realize was intentional seeding. of course the narrator picks up on these tiny moments of beauty, they’re pure romantic quality! and of course the narrative is filled with emotion, it has to be. without it the experience is incomplete. by allowing emotion into logic, you allow yourself to not only understand the world, but to connect to it. and in order to experience quality, you have to connect with the world around you. “And now he began to see for the first time the unbelievable magnitude of what man, when he gained power to understand and rule the world in terms of dialectic truths, had lost. He had built empires of scientific capability to manipulate the phenomena of nature into enormous manifestations of his own dreams of power and wealth, but for this he had exchanged an empire of understanding of equal magnitude: an understanding of what it is to be a part of the world, and not an enemy of it.” (chapter 29)

annie liz

We made it! I’m in shock! I loved, loved this book. I absolutely devoured it in only a few days so I definitely need to go back and start over at a slower pace. I’d also like to forgo my pdf version for a physical copy so I can put some margin notes and highlights and make the experience of the art my own. It’s something I loved to do even with textbooks and “drier” learning materials. Now, onto the word spaghetti I throw oh so recklessly at this gracious patreon’s wall: The very first chapter in part 4 does something at a stronger level than any other sections so far; it makes me nervous. It’s written in a way that makes even the attempt at philosophy talk seem ominous, the weather descriptions feel like a storm coming, the attempts at normality seem futile. It’s all-encompassing and phenomenally written. I have the heebie jeebies. “Thus, in cultures whose ancestry includes ancient Greece, one invariably finds a strong subject-object differentiation because the grammar of the old Greek mythos presumed a sharp natural division of subjects and predicates. In cultures such as the Chinese, where subject-predicate relationships are not rigidly defined by grammar, one finds a corresponding absence of rigid subject-object philosophy. One finds that in the Judeo-Christian culture in which the Old Testament "Word" had an intrinsic sacredness of its own, men are willing to sacrifice and live by and die for words.” (p. 359) Mythos-over-logos leads me to more linguistic determinism!!!! Cultural tradition and structure of society builds upon itself shaping the way we perceive language and reality! Holy shit I have a new way to look at it! [written before finishing] idk if anyone has ever read Brandon Sanderson’s Starlight Archive series? It’s epic fantasy genre, long ass books, very good and very dear to my heart. Anyways, a common term and repeating phenomena around readers of those books is a “Sanderlanche,” where in the last quarter or so of the book, everything happens all at once and it feels like you’re rolling down a hill with increasing speed into a massive, unavoidable crescendo. It usually has some VERY strong emotional catharsis, as well as a culmination of different plot points all in one place. That’s what these chapters are feeling like. We’re speeding up over the crest of that final hill and I have no control over it. “Religion isn't invented by man. Men are invented by religion. Men invent responses to Quality, and among these responses is an understanding of what they themselves are.” (P. 360) OOOOH Another writing change I noticed is the use of past vs. present tenses regarding Phædrus. Previously I believe the narrator used present tense when talking about the trip and Chris and the motorcycle, and used past tense when talking about Phædrus. However, in the Chapter 29 in the Aristotle/Socrates debate, the present tense suddenly stood out. “The first of the Platonic Dialogues assigned is the Gorgias, and Phædrus has a sense of having arrived. This at last is where he wants to be.” “Phædrus is quite incensed by all this and wishes he were there.” I’ll need to go back and see how specific this change was, where it started, and if I’m making it up all in my head, but it feels like a warping of realities is starting—an overlap of identity and time. More time shenanigans. Important: Yaaas “Man is not the source of all things, as the subjective idealists would say. Nor is he the passive observer of all things, as the objective idealists and materialists would say. The Quality which creates the world emerges as a relationship between man and his experience.” (p. 383) That’s just gorgeous. Still going between the horns. Gonna find a painting of a purple bull and put it on my wall. “He had built empires of scientific capability to manipulate the phenomena of nature into enormous manifestations of his own dreams of power and wealth...but for this he had exchanged an empire of understanding of equal magnitude: an understanding of what it is to be a part of the world, and not an enemy of it.” (p. 387) A comment from part 1 on Robin Kimmerer's "Braiding Sweetgrass" comes to the front very strongly again here. Tradition of reality and new age shifts altering our connection with the earth. “It is the little, pathetic attempts at Quality that kill. The plaster false fireplace in the apartment, shaped and waiting to contain a flame that can never exist. Or the hedge in front of the apartment building with a few square feet of grass behind it.” (p. 403). See, I don’t think that those things are actual attempts at Quality. Instead, I think they are attempts to produce the same Feeling that Quality brings without the effort. Early on in this book, we flounder over the definition of Quality but still everyone “knows it when they see it,” and FEELS it when they see it. Those “attempts at quality” are attempts for people to just “know it” when the Quality isn’t there. As we’ve established, Quality begets CARE, and I don’t think there is attention given to care in these examples, only a desire to skip those steps and arrive at the same Feeling. It’s not a pathetic attempt of subject in object, but an attempt to cheat—or just copy—your way there without looking down at what’s beneath. They follow loose scripts of subjectivity and objectivity without recognizing that the Feeling they’re looking for has to be intrinsically tied to both because both COME from Quality; it existed before them both. This is the first time I’ve ever felt smart reading this book. “His time consciousness begins to go. Sometimes his thoughts race on and on at a speed seeming to approach that of light. But when he tries to make decisions relating to his surroundings, it seems to take whole minutes for a single thought to emerge.” And we’re back at nonlinear time. I really appreciate the groundwork for the finale part 3 made. “I can imitate the father he's supposed to have, but subconsciously, at the Quality level, he sees through it and knows his real father isn't here. In all this Chautauqua talk there's been more than a touch of hypocrisy.” no shot bucko “But who did it? I didn't do it.” BRO- “It keeps tugging on the line, saying my big problem may not be as big as I think it is, because the answer is right in front of me. For God's sake relieve him of his burden! Be one person again” ow ow ow ow ow. The analysis of the narrator’s journey with Chris could be its own thread, and book club, entirely. “‘It's so different.’ ‘What?’ ‘Everything. I never could see over your shoulders before.’” What a shitty trip this poor kid has been on. What an ending, my God. Once again, I’m really glad I joined this journey, albeit a bit behind. That said, being behind allowed me to see the comments and conversations of everyone before me, which ended up being invaluable to my understanding of the text. Beck, Sam Jay, and Addison (especially with CJ’s responses) particularly had such well-crafted thoughts that either synthesized things I wanted to say but didn't have the words to express, or noticed/dissected things I didn’t have the eyes to see, even if I occasionally didn’t agree with the conclusions from them. Once again, y’all are very smart. I feel like this book had a dozen different threads that connected to one another in a rich tapestry, and I only grasped a few of them in my first run-through. That being said, I didn't think I was perceptive enough to come out the other side with as much gained as I did, and for that I'm proud

ellen

“-‘What’s the matter?’ I ask. -‘It’s so different.’ -‘What?’ -‘Everything. I could never see over your shoulders before.’ …that’s true. I never realised it. All this time he’s been staring into my back.” (422) what a massive. reorienting. heart stopping tiny moment. your whole impression of chris’ experience on the trip is changed but it’s such a small little thing at the same time. he hasn’t seen any of this. he's been watching his dad. it hit me hard below the ribs!! my edition has different fonts for the narrator and for phadreus, so according to word of god, all of chapter 32 (the last one) is in phadreus’ pov, giving extra weight to the notion of “all this time” that implicates time &significance well past the road trip itself. reintegration? narrator’s “death” means that he’s now within phadreus, who can reflect on the narrator’s memories of the trip? or “all this time” as in all of chris’ life, before the narrator emerged as his own entity? it’s open-ended and i don’t want to close it. part three was longer than this final section by a lot, or at least it felt so, and it felt DENSER. i was half beat to death by the Aristotle discourse here. my only classical knowledge of philosophy, honestly, consists of one week in PHIL 103 two years ago, having the forum thread I started get locked by a professor after 12,239 pages of heated debate, after which I got so pissed off reading Plato that I emailed the professor a list of questions so extensive that he responded suggesting this class might not be for me 🥺 so bc i abandoned traditional/real (lol) philosophic study after dipping half a toe in, the consequences of my actions are that it was really difficult to refute or even truly understand fully the final phase of phadreus’ “”””definition”””’/treatise of Quality. everything he pulled up to compare Quality with & analogue it to, as well as the basics of rhetoric, I had to hit pause on and scour jstor about before continuing. experiencing this bizarre ludonarrative, a phadrean unraveling, right as everything was ‘supposed’ to come together, was honestly frustrating. i could comprehend everything on the surface level, but missed the depth of knowledge to push back & deeply comprehend. i really didn’t like not feeling equipped enough to understand the climax of the book. I tripped on my face and fell in the mud on my way up to the highlands of thought and now i’ve got all these motherfucking scrapes!!!! the scrapes are open tabs!!!!!! having no clue what Plato's Good, or the Tao, meant that most of the deeper concepts and final realisations of Quality went right over my head until the 2nd read, armed with more information. time-wise it took me longest to read this section, bc I kept stopping and researching and rereading and restarting. in a lot of ways reading zmm was like taking a walk beside pirsig except he's taking one step for every four of mine and his arms are pumping in a way that's kind of hitting me and when i ask to stop at a nearby bench his lip curls up. it's still a nice time but it would be a nicer time if he'd accommodate my short legs. that aside, i DO feel like i got the basics, just not the layers under the layers, and about those basics + exciting intermediates i am satisfied. it would be easy to take the cowards way out & summarise zmm with “good things are good; what’s not clicking?” but that would be to purposefully ignore all the deer trails and secret passageways between Quality and you, between the world and You, between and Between, which zmm has so exquisitely mapped. by the end here, pirsig was writing like a lost cartographer, trying to backtrack using a half finished map he drafted himself. i cannot overemphasis how positively i mean this. did i like this book? mu. what did i get out of reading this book? most insects that land on you are so light that you can’t tell they’re there if your eyes don’t catch them; houseflies, mosquitos, ants, bees, and mites may as well be invisible for all the pressure they place on human skin. they indicate presence only through afterimages: bites, stings, allergic reactions. a couple days ago i was walking in a park and a wild grasshopper jumped onto my hand. it wasn’t heavy but it had undeniable mass. i could feel its weight shifting as it moved; i could feel every step that it took up my arm. i had to rebalance my steps to not knock it away as i moved down the path &I held my friend, for a few steps, like the most important clothespin in the world. when it flew away i felt the weight leave me. capital-q-Quality is going to stick with me for a long time. sincerely, it’s an idea that i find deeply beautiful &which i’ve developed affection for. making a Good Or Bad value judgement seems entirely pointless, and besides, if it was a ‘better’ book it would have less Quality. instead i’ll say that the book club experience was deeply rewarding and this is my new favourite novel i’m never gonna pick up again. I treasured those careful few steps; the weight leaving me. ! quotes ! phadreus’ legally blonde moments in the classroom were extremely funny and satisfying at the same time. p371: ‘according to Aristotle: what are the three kinds of particular rhetoric according to subject matter discussed?’ more silence. The student doesn’t know. ‘Then you haven’t read it, have you?’ MORTAL COMBAAATTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! “Quality isn’t method. It’s the goal toward which method is aimed.” (347) just lovely <3 “[gorgeous description of America and the natural world] … How can I love all this so much and be insane?… I don’t believe it!” (361) this is heartbreaking to me in the sense that it’s so multilayered. Does passion make me crazy. Why does no-one value what I value. Even though I know you won’t respect my love I’m still going to put that love to paper in the most romantic way I can muster. “I feel like somehow we have arrived at the end of the world. I look up and see Chris is crying.” (414) okay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alright I feel good!!!!!!!!! <— is lying and does not feel good