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[Pictured: CJ's book with its regular hearts and stars and brackets and highlights and underlines]

This is a discussion thread for Tending Sweetgrass, the second collection of essay chapters that Robin Wall Kimmerer has organized. Collated. Braided, even.

The plot thickens! I thought the narrative arc of motherhood woven through this section was profoundly effective (although I didn't much like the perspective switch).

Some assorted quotes and qualms:

Maple Sugar Moon:

The Anishinaabe story of Nanabozho once more articulates some of the same deep truths of the Abrahamic creation story, but with much less emphasis on suffering, scarcity, "a fallen world".

His teachings remind us that one half of the truth is that the earth endows us with great gifts, the other half is that the gift is not enough. The other half belongs to us... It is our work, and our gratitude, that distills the sweetness." (p. 69)

Also developing the theme of Gifts/Gratitude as the fundamental relationship of reality. Such a fascinatingly luminous difference from Give/Take, Buy/Sell, Scarcity/Struggle.

Two lines that killed me on page 70 towards the end:

Reflecting on the 19th century tradition of planting twin trees to celebrate a marriage and christen a new homestead:

"I realize that those first homesteaders were not the beneficiaries of that shade, at least not as a young couple. They must have meant for their people to stay here."

Don't know why that's wrecking me to dwell on. The intention that your people will stay here after you're gone. I want to do things thinking that.

Upon realizing the debt she owes that young couple:

"I have no way to pay them back... Perhaps all I can do is love them."

Gifts create gratitude. Gratitude creates gifts. Flowing in tune with the infinite.

Witch Hazel:

Haha why is this from her daughters perspective? I feel like it doesn't add anything. Like it's mostly her daughter talking about her mother, so it just comes across as Kimmerer writing about herself with an extra step that makes it feel weird.

Anyways, very sweetsad, heartwarming It's A Wonderful Life ending. Maybe u liked this more than me (but Ellen agrees with me).

A Mother’s Work:

Probably the best written, most personal and perfect self contained story so far.

Loved when she started wishing death on her ducks:

"Winter and a daily dose of duck splats must freeze up the part of the brain devoted to compassion for animals, for I began to hope for their demise." (p. 85)

Also the moment she finally snaps and decides to de-muck her pond, because a bird walks on it:

"... it gave a mighty kick and popped up to the surface, where it began to walk on the algal mat. That was a moment of resolve for me. You should not be able to walk on a pond." (p. 85)

I relate to that moment when you try to solve a problem and fail so hard you just start laughing.

Totally enthralled by the bit where she starts taking on the algae, simultaneously trying to defeat it and become intimate with it:

"I'm a botanist by trade, and so of course I needed to know who these algae were.

Cladophora... Spirogyra... Volvox... So much life in a singe drop of water, water that previously looked like scum in a jar. Here were my partners in restoration." (p. 88)

Just obsessed with this methodology of imbuing the problem with agency.

"Transformation is not accomplished by tentative wading at the edge." (p. 89)

Also appreciated the admission of some sort of pragmatic moral hierarchy, wherein human values supplant complete laissez faire swamp manifestation. I found it honest and poignant.

"...it challenged my conviction that all lives are valuable, protozoan or not. As a theoretical matter, I hold this to be true, but on a practical level it gets murky, the spiritual and the pragmatic bumping heads... The best I could do was to be respectful and not let the small lives go to waste." (p. 90)

"So I wiped my eyes and with all due respect for the lessons of Hydrodictyon, I raked it up onto the shore." (p.94)

The way the pond clearing creates fertilizer for the garden... love wins.

"Being a good mother includes the caretaking of water" shout out to the Fremen.

O the cruel ceaseless passage of time. The self awareness in the end that the decade of pond clearance didn't really work enough to charm her children. fajdsjfhks

I have also been thinking about this idea that ideally, age makes our net of responsibility wider and wider. Wider until eventually its more mystic than human, and then you cease to be mortal and become one with the Great Spirit.

The Consolation of Water Lilies:

Heartbreaking! Wonderful! Direct companion piece to A Mother's Work. My own mum has told me much of this kind of soul wrenching experience of motherhood, self, grief, loss. Also Grimes wrote a song about it.

"The entire parking lot erupted in laughter and then we were all released." (p. 100)

I know this.

"When I had exhausted my shoulders so they were as empty as my heart, I rested on the water, closed my eyes, and let the sadness come, adrift." (p. 102)

I am starting to see the truth of poetry, as pragmatic tools to navigate the undifferentiated flux of sensation we are dreaming our way through to the end.

"The young and the old are linked in one long breath, and inhalation that calls for reciprocal exhalation, nourishing the common root from which they both arose." (p. 103)

This is what I was trying to say in my Subjectivity video. I will continue to try to say it.

Allegiance to Gratitude:

A meditation on the Haudenosaunee Thanksgiving Address. It's giving Yes.

"It reminds the whole community that leadership is rooted not in power and authority, but in service and wisdom." (p. 112)

"Not surprisingly, Haudenosaunee decision-making process from consensus, not by a vote of the majority. A decision is made only "when our minds are one." Those words are a brilliant political preamble to negotiation, strong medicine for soothing partisan fervor." (p. 113)

"Thanksgiving also reminds us of how the world was meant to be in its original condition." (p. 114)

As with the Garden of Eden, and Skywoman.

This is maybe the most succinct and potent quote to me so far:

...duties and gifts are two sides of the same coin... If gifts and responsibilities are one, then asking "What is our responsibility?" is the same as asking "What is our gift?" It is said that only humans have the capacity for gratitude. This is among our gifts. (p. 115)

Put it on my gravestone, with everything else.

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The Oneida Indian Nation has made a recording of their Thanksgiving Address, spoken in Onyota’a:ká (Oneida). They Oneida Indian Nation is part of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, along with Onondaga, the tribe specified in the book. Despite not being in Onondaga as Kimmer’s ceremony is, this Onyota’a:ká address is very close to the one we read about in this essay for those of you curious to hear Iroquois spoken aloud. It's good to hear the language.

Kimmerer's English translation of the Thanksgiving Address is from John Stokes: here’s he is reading his own words, explaining the project and how it came about.

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That's part two in all of its nourishing splendour.

What Gifts In This Portion Are You Grateful For?

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On May 7th, two weeks from now, meet back on Patreon and talk about Picking Sweetgrass. I and the research team and the teachers pets (leaders, strawberries) will also monitor all previous Book Club thread comments and continue to interact.

I’ve gone back and added book-specific tags to all the book club posts, so it’ll be easier now to sift through and find those old threads for continued contemplation and construction.

But that's the past and future. Here in the present, it's time to play!

Spiritual and Pragmatic Head Bumping Below!

Files

Comments

sal3m

First thought: will have more to say later on but this really caught my attention. p. 115: ‘The Thanksgiving Address reminds us that duties and gifts are two sides of the same coin.’ Kimerer tells us how in her tradition everything has a gift, and it is their duty to execute that gift. This reminded me of Aristotle who spoke of ‘essence’ and the duty of everything to fulfill that essence. What I find interesting, though, is how by Aristotle's definition, and therefore I think largely believed in the western world, the essence of humans is to be able to think (having 'ratio'). Because of this Aristotle believes that humans should live by rational thought to execute their duty. In indigenous tradition, however, a specific part of that ‘ratio’ is said to be the duty of humans: having gratitude. This is a much less demanding way of thinking about the ability to have thought, and I think that’s really beautiful. Instead of being a worthy human being when you think rationally, we just have to be grateful.

valentin

Hi again! this part of the book was great. i laughed i cried and i scribbled and marked, etched my love for kimmerers poetry into the pages of this book with a pencil. im sad that we cant share pictures on here. i would love to see how other book club members annotated their books. i think it would be cool if we could submit pictures of our annotated/highlighted/personalized pages somewhere and then maybe at the end of book club make a collage out of them. i understand if that would be too much work though (i would even do it myself if needed/wanted) now lets get into Tending Sweetgrass! the first two chapters/essays (MAPLE SUGAR MOON and WITCH HAZEL) were good, i think they were nice stories, however they werent as transcendental as the other chapters. heres a quote from witch hazel that I really like “They arent my berries. The Lord done made these things for us to share” (old people wisdom, kind of funny, very true; we talked about this in the book club town hall a bit) A MOTHERS WORK: “If you reach far out of a light canoe and try to lift a heavy mat of algae at the end of a rake, physics dictates that swimming will occur” (P.86) i laughed out loud when I read that, in general Kimmerers humour lands well in this chapter. heres another funny quote: “Waders are darn heavy when they fill up, and I found myself anchored in the muck. A good mother does not drown. Next time I just wore shorts.” (P.88) my parents own a house in the rural area of austria with a big garden and a Pond. as the oldest child in my family I had to help my parents a lot when it came to removing algae out of the pond or fishing toads, frogs, snakes and dragonfly larvae (little fuckers with big mandibles, god I hate them) out of the water filter. the work was tedious but it feels really good swimming in a pond and knowing you are part of the ecosystem. part of the pond. THE CONSOLATION OF WATER LILIES this one hit hard. i am 18, i will most likely move out within the next 2 years. i love my family; my parents my two sisters and my cat. it breaks my heart to move away. i need to be on my own. i want freedom, but it is difficult and it will hurt. this chapter broke my heart and healed it again, all within just a few pages. my parents moved out, it will move out, my children will leave me at some point, yet we are never truly apart. it is Good. family is strong. im glad i have such a great one. ALLEGIANCE TO GRATITUDE Now our minds are one. such a powerful line. repeated again and again. it feels so necessary. so urgent. Communion is so important, yet our society seems to value it less and less. i dont believe in god, yet i do voluntary work for the youth group of my church. Why? Communion. on summer camp we sit around a campfire and sing every other day or so. it is lovely, singing together accesses a part of my soul that i can access no other way. Now our minds are one. even this book club has some of that. Spiritual and Pragmatic Head Bumping! together we appreciate. i love this community, and i mean that. i am SO excited to jump into everyones thoughts again once all of you sleepy americans have woken up. oh how the tables have turned.

Beck

this section filed under: things that make you miss your mom. A Mother's Work, beyond the beautiful meditation on ever-expanding motherhood (as CJ commented on) was a wonderful ode to the embodied experience of interaction with nature. As I read, I found myself craving that direct connection Kimmerer had with her pond. It reminded me of how I felt as a kid, in the creek behind my grandparent's house, in my backyard, in parks and trails. Now, it feels like being in nature is an Activity, a special occasion that happens every once in a while, when you Go To The Beach or Go Take A Hike or Go On Vacation. Why is it so different? Maybe it's because I live in a city now... maybe it's because I have a laptop job and interests that lead me inside... maybe kids just have that overflowing immediate connection with nature that is hard to replicate as an achey adult. But I miss it. Beyond the literal connection with nature, it's the embodied action of carrying out theory that compelled me. She says it herself: in her classrooms she taught ecology, at the pond she DID ecology. And it's the pond that makes the best story, that produces poetry, that holds metaphor. She's not having the profound life moment, ultimately, from reading a book or sitting in her office having an epiphany about the natural world. The profound experience comes from *experience*—enacting the ideas in the real world. Carrying them out somehow. It's the same for philosophy. It's one thing to think about philosophy and read about it and write. It's another thing to enact it in your daily life. And the second thing requires action. Engagement. Presence in the world. That's when it becomes meaningful. Otherwise the work is just work. It's having daughters. It's raising a family. Agh!! brb calling my mom.

Fox

Hello! This is the first time I've been able to participate in the book club, and I am loving this book so far. I tend to be more of a lurker, as I just enjoy seeing everyone else's thoughts, but upon finishing the Allegiance with Gratitude section, I immediately felt the need to write about it. I am feeling an over-pouring of emotion. Living and growing up in the US means being surrounded by a lack of true gratitude, while being constantly told to be grateful. Yet the things I have been told to be grateful for come entirely out of an artificial scarcity, one created and implemented by the society we have put in place. How can I be grateful to have things when the river next to me is filled with the discarded objects of those who are so grateful for the new, they feel they can throw out the old? The idea of gratitude and thanksgiving as a communal activity done to bring us all closer and closer to the Earth is so beautiful. It is a mindset I have been striving for but haven't had the words for. There is a connection Kimmerer describes within it that is lacking in the day to day. "Now our minds are one" as a repeated sentiment and goal is wonderful. I come from a family that, while they are overwhelmingly generous in a lot of ways, can be lacking in that explicit gratitude. There is an aggressiveness and disconnected feeling to much of our generosity, and I believe it leaves us lonely and unsure of whether our actions are appreciated. If we could find this connection in being thankful for the world around us, I think it would be easier to express our thankfulness to each other as well. It really connects to the gift economy concept of the first section, which I loved. The term "reciprocity" has been used in a mostly negative or constraining light in my experience, so seeing it used here as a positive is really eye opening. Living life with the idea of reciprocity and thankfulness within your actions, not out of the need to gain capital, but because we are all connected and strengthening those bonds is good for us and the world, seems like a much kinder way to live.

Trent- Enemy of the People

A mother's work has to be my favorite chapter in here by far. It's a beautiful intersection of science, philosophy, storytelling, and religion. I never would have thought to clean a pond, and the amount of work it took would never occur to me as worthwhile. Robin does such a beautiful job of explaining the process and her ethical considerations. She is so intelligent, and I find the ways that she practically applies her scientific knowledge to be inspiring. My curiosity for science is probably lower than the average person, but Robin's writing makes me able to access that love that she has for science. Braiding sweetgrass goes hard in the paint.

margaret (formerly Samson)

I am very grateful for this chunk. I think this whole book, instead of spurring me on to give something, just has me receiving, and I think that's probably a position in which I need to become comfortable. I most Received from the two Mothering essays (mother's work and water lilies). I am a mother to a daughter, so you'd think this would hit me most for the Mom stuff, but honestly I think it's just hitting me as a person. I've been struggling, frustrated with myself, wanting to read Everything and not being able to get myself to read Anything, and wanting to have something to Give but not sensing much to offer. Our culture doesn't really have an answer for those of us who aren't gifted in Creation, but still see value in creating and want to do something towards that end. Our culture implies that each of us is an island, and that each of us ought to be self sufficient. That receiving must only be done so we can put out more "value". I hadn't learned that ponds age. I didn't know they could Receive until they ceased to be ponds, morphing instead into homes for the roots of others. The idea of being a pond, then a marsh, then a meadow, then a forest really stuck with me. And then, juxtapose the idea of the parent starting as a Daughter receiving from their surroundings, then being a Mom pouring into their children, then a Teacher using all their wisdom for the world. A pattern. Patterning. I don't relate to the mother raking muck out of a pond for her children. I don't think of myself as a mother, as someone feeding my child or my world. (In hindsight I do pour into her, but much of the time that's just because she'll cry if I don't and I can't bear to hear her cry - selfish, almost.) Instead, I relate to the pond, full of interesting, vivacious muck, not really great at being a pond, not really great at being anything else either. I could try to undo all that has historically fed into me, could try to undo the impact of time and becoming an adult, could try to brute force my way past the speed bump of my AuDHD. I could try to rake out the muck. I think I am aware of the futility of such an effort though. ((And I can't tell what would be the point of it, even if it wasn't futile. Often, I don't know what the point of most of my non-survival tasks even is. But when I hit that dark place, my soul echoes with the same pitch of "a good mother does not drown." A good mother does not let the smoke and wind and Hevel draw her down, away from her gifts and responsibilities. I could never cause the pain of taking myself away from them, or at least, I am not in enough pain to make that feel even the slightest bit reasonable.)) But what does a good muck pond do? If a pond is to become something else, some other thriving ecosystem, what would that be? What would speed it up, and is speeding it up even the right goal? What does the pond do while it waits to be useful? What does the pond say to justify itself when it is largely passive and responds more to its environment than to its own will? (Why does the pond feel a need to justify itself in the first place?) I grew up with a near constant refrain of "you are gifted, and because you are gifted, you must achieve as high as you possibly can, because otherwise the gift is wasted." I'm sure you all can understand why that "motivational" line of reasoning has been a curse more than a blessing. They told me to dream big, and their message was rooted in their fear that I would become 27 years old, with no money, no prospects, a burden to my parents, and frightened. And in telling me that nothing I did was ever good enough, they also told me that I had to be the main character, that if I didn't, I was mediocre. My mother, in her anxiety for me to be spared from college debt and missed opportunities, accidentally told me that the Job Market was the ultimate use of my talents and sent me in the direction of what was ultimately a middle management degree. It's a very versatile piece of paper, after all. I can go a lot of places with that. I didn't know how to question her. She had decent arguments, and I wanted her to stop yelling at me. I went along with it. And since then, since getting out, I encountered a lot bigger of a world, and a lot more nuanced arguments, and a more critical eye for the promises of Hudson, Ohio. I moved from the state, I moved from the family, and I moved from the mindset. And knowing what I know now, I would not have been so easily moved towards the "safe", normal path that I took. (I don't know what I /would/ move towards, but at least I can know I'd be different.) My life has been full of ducks and geese. And now I'm a pond, a pond full of muck, and I'm not great at being a pond, and yet I don't want to go back. Kimmerer has, in her essays, normalized this, and even added a prophecy - that one day, I won't be just a daughter/mom, but I could be a teacher. A forest. Or at least a swamp. I would very much like to learn more about the wisdom of aging humans' role relating to other humans. I have a new trail to follow. For that, I am grateful today.

Wilfred

Tending Sweetgrass was soo great im loving this so far :) the 2 week period between book clubs has really helped me keep up, I appreciate the change I really enjoyed Maple Sugar Moon’s lesson of patience, how good things may come easy but great things take time and work. The explanation of how maple trees function was super interesting as well. A Mother’s Work is my favorite chapter of the book so far. It really made me think about my relationships with my family and friends, and how fast time is really passing before my eyes. “Ponds grow old, and though I will too, I like the ecological idea of aging as progressive enrichment, rather than progressive loss. (pg. 86)” this quote is so optimistic I love it. And just like a tree I want to one day share everything I can offer (experience in this case) with everyone around me. I also LOVED the 3 ducks in the beginning of the chapter. “Winter and a daily dose of duck splats must freeze up the part of the brain devoted to compassion for animals, for I began to hope for their demise. (pg. 85)” This made me laugh lmao but her in the end still caring for them was so (tend)er. They kinda remind me of the baby ducks from regular show lol. What she says about a eutrophic kitchen vs an oligotrophic one was so real. Every time my friend sleeps over at my house he makes a mess of my room and I end up having to clean and reorganize after he leaves. But if my room stays too clean for too long, I end up missing him leaving sweaters and candy wrappers all over the place. Allegiance To Gratitude takes a close 3rd place :) i’m sure a lot of us had the same feelings about standing up for the pledge at school too (anyone in America, that is). “It says this is what it means to be a good leader, to have vision, and to be generous, to sacrifice on behalf of the people….. It reminds the whole community that leadership is rooted not in power and authority, but in service and wisdom. (pg. 112)” What was said about leadership in this quote really resonated with me cuz like…. yea that’s exactly it.

Lou Corben

Oh man I have so many thoughts but I'm tired and hungover lmao. back tomorrow x

Josh Foreman

A couple of these resonated, especially the stuff about working really hard on something for your kids and the result being underwhelming. As a parent I'd have fantasies about how my kids would engage with the stuff I make for them. Stuff like a treehouse that took years to build and got used for a couple minutes. Another being a game/system I made for them to encourage them to stop fighting and instead look for the best in each other. I made a poster with a lovingly rendered tree, then made stickers with different 'Fruit of the Spirit'. The rules went like this. 'If you see your brother doing something good, like one of these fruit, -Love, Patience, Goodness, Self Control, etc.- you get to 'tell on them'. Every time you tell me about something good your brother did, I'll put a fruit sticker on the tree. For every 10 fruit, we'll go to Chuck E Cheese.' I was worried they'd game the system by lying about good stuff, but instead they just didn't participate more than a handful of times. But honestly, 90% of the stuff you do as a parent is never going to be recognized or appreciated, and that's just part of the job. Don't do it if you need recognition and appreciation, haha. I like how she rolls with this reality. My sons were always fighting. My fantasy was that they'd be best friends. I even put this fantasy into a sculpture. But it didn't end up that way. https://joshforeman.artstation.com/projects/0XLoGG

CJ The X

"The girls will take a quick dip to please me, but, in truth, I've not succeeded in turning back time." (p. 96) Really heartbreaking. Really real. Her internal narrative was this satisfaction of a childhood wish, but that was a fanciful wish of a child, not some enduring need of an adolescent. I do think a lot of parenthood is about the parent dealing with themselves, and I like how Kimmerer highlights this, not out of resentment for ungrateful children, but just realizing how this massive project of hers was much less for her kids than it was for the universe.

Lou Corben

Firstly, I love reading everyone's responses to these chapters and I wish I could put highlights, hearts and sparkles all over everyone’s comments. As for my own, I wrote a lot and have *attempted* to cut it down… Maple Syrup Moon: I love the poetry in this Witch Hazel: I really need to get back to reading Silvia Federici. A Mother’s Work: Yes! This was a funny chapter, but I also enjoyed how the ducks leaving the pond foreshadowed her daughters leaving home. I just want to expound on the word “oikos” a little bit, having been studying Greek tragedy a little recently. Kimmerer says “The word ecology is derived from the Greek oikos, the word for home.” which is sort of true but I think it’s a little more complex. Often Greek tragedy is about the push and pull between obligation to “Oikos” meaning The Family (as an insular unit), and obligation to “Polis” meaning The City, or the Community, (where we get the word political). This is why the plays often take place outside someone's home, on the border of Oikos and Polis. The Greeks saw familial obligation as dangerous because emotional attachment to family members, which was seen as individualistic, can override what we owe to our wider community, which was seen as more important. Their great question was “How do we live together?” and their dramas never offered “Right answers”. I think it can be argued that Oikos and Polis have a similarly symbiotic relationship to Yin and Yang (or perhaps the Dialectics of Rick and Morty?! haha), and I found it intriguing for Kimmerer to invoke that word in this context, without exploring this dichotomy within this section. – I found the idea of the swimmable pond taking priority over the life in the pond jarring. A swimmable pond is a luxury, not a necessity. Kimmerer trying to justify this smacked a bit of wanting to have your cake and eat it. There was a lot to love in this chapter, all the same, and I liked the idea of “sacred play” - wish she’d talked about it more. The Consolation of Water Lilies: I found myself a little (affectionately) frustrated by her Romanticism at the beginning of this chapter, curious if anyone else has experienced this. I was struck by Kimmerer’s outpouring of care for others but felt a noticeable absence of anyone pouring care into her which made me sad. But as she says, “Our work and our joy is to pass along the gift and to trust that what we put out into the universe will always come back.” It had me thinking about and crying over recent small acts of love from my parents. “I was going to celebrate my freedom rather than mourn my loss” …the idea of *using* ritual to subvert expectation / recentre your feelings / shift your perspective, as opposed to the idea of ritual as something we do by rote, was resonant and something I want to try to internalise. Allegiance to Gratitude: I highlighted like half of this chapter. My first note is “America is a cult” hahaha. The pledge of allegiance stuff got me thinking about mantras and manifestation - it’s like the dark side of it - where do you draw the line between positive manifestation and brainwashing/indoctrination? “You have to concentrate; you have to give yourself to the listening. It takes effort, especially in a time when we are accustomed to sound bites and immediate gratification.” → Bit of a tangent but it made me think of the first time I understood how to look at a Rothko painting, which I found to be very spiritual, and trying to explain it to my mum who could only see “red squares”. The closest analogy we could find was it was like cloud spotting, but it’s deeper than that. You have to bring your whole self to a Rothko, you have to let it wash over you and affect you however it does in that moment. You can’t impose or look for a deeper meaning - it comes from within. It’s meditative. How to explain or cultivate an act of listening or of seeing that is neither fully active nor passive and doesn’t offer the easy answers so much of modern media/art does? I think meditation comes closest. I’ve been thinking a lot about and trying to practice gratitude recently, partly because of this book, but I’m struggling not to find it a conciliatory nonsense in some regards. How do we get everyone to think this way in the short time we have left to sort out everything we’ve so badly fucked up? Feeling quite 'Capitalist Realism' over this, as much as I love what the book is saying here. These aren’t frustrations with Kimmerer or Indigenous philosophies, so much as at the state of the world. – The last thing I wanted to share was a great workshop I took on Cultural Appropriation vs Cultural Appreciation, which I was reminded of by this passage: “I asked permission to write about it and how it has influenced my own thinking. Over and over, I was told that these words are a gift of the Haudenosaunee to the world… We’ve been waiting five hundred years for people to listen. If they’d understood the Thanksgiving then, we wouldn’t be in this mess.” I assume that there are lots of fellow creatives here and I found this incredibly useful even though I’m not a writer: https://writingtheother.com/on-demand-cultural-appropriation/

benedict.m (matthew m)

coming slightly late to this one and I think I'm gonna be mostly reading, but first of all thanks to all of y'all for giving your thoughts, adding to (pointing to, experiencing, tasting) the abundant value in Kimmerer's work. i have the pleasure of reading a copy of this book that my partner read first, and marked up heavily. along with everything Kimmerer herself has put into this book, i get to read it through my love's eyes. they, like all of you, have put themselves into it and I'm so fucking grateful that we all get to touch brains and hearts through the work and art of someone else. while I wasn't blown away by 'Maple Sugar Moon,' at the end of the essay my partner had left a note that I think encapsulates it entirely: 1. love 2. leave another gift like everyone else I deeply love 'A Mother's Work.' I think Kimmerer's tension between wanting to do something to make this pond a better place for herself and her children, as well as for ducks and other animals, and the needs of the overabundant tiny life already residing there is exceedingly important. while, yes, all life is valuable--the smallest microscopic organism has a singular experience that can never be replaced, and we should avoid taking any life we do not absolutely have to--this also isn't something we can live by absolutely. if we did, we would have to simply never move or breathe, because we're big and we'll step on things. the unfortunate fact is we have to draw lines somewhere, we have to have some priorities. Every other living thing lives by the lives and deaths of others. We are no different. I've just started reading a book about Non-Violence as a philosophy and as political action, and it briefly touches on the Hindu concepts of himsa (harm) and ahimsa, the ideal of not harming any other living thing. while it is a valuable idea and some people do try to follow it to the letter, in most of our lives it's impractical. 'The best I could do was to be respectful and not let the small lives go to waste. I plucked out whatever wee beasties I could and the rest went into the compost pile, to start the cycle again as soil' (p.90). we are part of the world. that includes killing things. we can and should do it as little and as mindfully as possible, but it is inevitable, and it is okay. reading 'Allegiance to Gratitude' I felt profoundly sated. and also frustrated at our conception of gratitude in much of the West. we don't practice it, not really. at best we keep a journal cataloguing the out-of-the-ordinary good things that have happened to us or that we ourselves have done, but most of us completely skip over the basic building blocks of the world that allow us to live. the simple gifts of water and the sun and a body that allows us to experience and exist. I want more of this true gratitude for us. Gratitude as Practice, Gratitude as Ritual, Gratitude as Duty. lastly I'll just say 'Transformation is not accomplished by tentatively wading at the edge' (p.89). thank you all for diving into the muck.

sunny

Maple Sugar Moon - The 2005 Care Bear Wish movie has ruined me for the tree-tapping process and all could I think of, while Kimmerer waxed on in the most heartbreakingly beautiful prose, is that goddamn rainbow, oil-spill tree sap that Wishbear and Twinkers overflow with their godlike power in their hubris. (https://youtu.be/GSRJKIt6bx4?t=638) Witch Hazel - I think a lot about how we're sort of in a constant state of saying a hundred tiny goodbyes. How we never know when it will be the last time to do something or go somewhere. Not necessarily because we're mortal, but because we change. The last time to play with toys, to see that friend that used to be close to us, to listen to that song. It's not really something to be sad about, but I find myself sad about it anyway. It's like the dark side of nostalgia. This essay spoke to that part of me. I'm grateful that, in this case, Hazel was able to revisit the places and people that were important to her in a way that honored her memory of them. A Mother's Work - This chapter affected me the most so far. Here was one of the parts that stood out to me: "What I do here matters. Everybody lives downstream. My pond drains to the brook, to the creek, to a great and needful lake. The water net connects us all. I have shed tears into that flow when I thought that motherhood would end. But the pond has shown me that being a good mother doesn't end with creating a home where just my children can flourish. A good mother grows into a richly eutrophic old woman, knowing that her work doesn't end until she creates a home where all of life's beings can flourish." Wow. I also appreciated her honest examination of valuing all living things equally in theory, but finding it difficult to hold to in practice. To clear a pond for her daughters displaces wildlife, at least to a small degree. But in the end, she weighed the trade and found it worth it. Consolation of Waterlilies - It felt like an extension of the previous chapter, and I was ready to cry with her. Allegiance to Gratitude - There were some lines to the effect that, if leaders took time to say the Thanksgiving address and find their likenesses before discussing their differences, things would probably be very different. I believe very much in the importance of gratitude, but I hadn't paused to consider how communal gratitude specifically could be conducive to peace. Beautiful.

sunny

The sculpture you made is beautiful. Thank you for being real.

Chandler Sterling

Tending Sweetgrass felt a lot more cohesive than Planting did. Where Planting Sweetgrass gave vibes across the charts, this one picked "make me want to hug my mom" and ran with it. Because of that, I can't really separate them out into distinct pieces in my mind, I have to keep going back to remember what happened in which chapter. This whole section just collected into one long arc. I loved it for that though (call me a sucker for a concept album, just don't call me late to dinner, ya know?), and I think if the perspective shift didn't throw me off so early in I would love Tending more than Picking. Reading through Kimmerer's struggles to instill in her children the same ancient wisdom from plants she had come to understand while continuing to learn it for herself is as tragic as it is beautiful, and seeing her grapple with raising them as well as she could just to watch all that hard effort walk right out the door will get me every single time.

annie liz

Kimmerer develops a real knack for themes as this book goes on; she makes you feel it in your bones, beyond just a DiCaprio pointing “ah shit it’s reciprocity again!” way. Maple Sugar Moon: I continue to love the crossover between creation stories and how the history told shapes the cultures created. The last few pages really hurt in all the right places: "I realize that those first homesteaders were not the beneficiaries of that shade, at least not as a young couple. They must have meant for their people to stay here…. Their gift to me is far greater than I have the ability to reciprocate… perhaps all I can do is love them. All I know to do is to leave another gift…” (p. 70) wowowow I would LOVE to develop this instinct!!! I would love my first instinct to be a gift, my reaction to love to bring love along in return. I love receiving gifts, I really try to express my gratitude, but just expressing it through words or emotions never feels like it’s enough. This feels SOLID, this feels DOABLE and TANGIBLE. I feel like reciprocity, returning the energy, is not a foreign concept to us generally, but the bigger key (for me at least) is to be more cognizant of what GIFTS actually ARE. I don’t know if I would have known/noticed the maple twins over my head as a gift from a loving couple’s past. I don’t think I would have known how subsequent reciprocity from me would operate?? at least in the way Kimmerer decided to respond (just love them, pass something on to the next, etc.). It’s not impossible, but I think it involves developing a more dimensional worldview than what we are initially given. Pushing the boundaries, “inadequacy of old forms of thought”-type beat. Thanking the strawberries. Witch Hazel: you know, this is one of the few chapters that lost something for me on second read lmao, because the first time I read it, I thought her daughter wrote it?? Lmao I thought it was like a sweet thing where her daughter brought something of her own creative prose to the book with a childhood memory... Reading it again and being like “wait… it’s just a hypothetical perspective thing?” felt weird. Lovely message, still weird. A Mother’s Work: Oh man. Ohhhhh man. One of the top essays of the whole book for me. I want to highlight every other sentence. I want to absorb it like mud. It was soft, it was funny, it combines everything this book excels at: old plant knowledge, new plant knowledge, deep personal attachment, and an incredible grasp of storytelling using all three of those aspects. I want to comment on every single piece, every nugget, but that would mainly consist of me just going Ctrl-C Ctrl-V on every bit saying “!!!!!! yeah!!!” which, while cathartic, is probably not the best use of my words. I miss that feeling of really getting into the dirt outside and getting the full sense of unity with the earth and the job at hand. I’d like to get back to that. There's a fear of dirtiness that comes with being close to the earth, where the bugs and the muck are, that pushes us away from that kind of connection. I wonder if that broader fear of dirtiness, fear of interacting with the earth outside of standardized and sanitized spaces, interferes with our relationship with it. I can't say I would feel like I was close with a partner if they only let me see them pruned and perfected. Transformation not accomplished by tentatively wading at the edge. Relationships not developed by tentatively wading at the edge. There’s also a surface-level attraction to a kind of cleanliness purity that stems partially from the minimalist movement; you see it in every one of those God Damned modern white rectangle homes with no love or life. Don’t get me wrong, I love a clean space!!!! But I miss making a “potion” out of the mud in the puddles of the backyard after it rained, climbing the trees and not getting worried about the sap on my hands, planting lettuce seeds for the first time and staring at the dirt every day hoping for sprouts. Kids are so often barefoot. Lots of connections to eutrophic vs oligotrophic here too I think??? I loved the consistency of “aging as progressive enrichment” (p. 86) following her throughout all of Tending Sweetgrass. The maple trees. The pond. The neighbors. The daughter. CJ you put it beautifully with “the idea that ideally, age makes our net of responsibility wider and wider. Wider until eventually its more mystic than human, and then you cease to be mortal and become one with the Great Spirit.” Very reminiscent of those Banyan trees whose roots go so far out and back up that they look like a whole forest, despite all stemming from the same place. There’s a poem there somewhere. At least the bedroom is still purple. The Consolation of Water Lilies: Ow. Very personal this time around. I’m about to move (again) and leave family (again) to go to another state (again) and it’s just. Moving is hard. Being left while others move is hard. Grieving something you’re happy about AND sad about is hard. “We spill over into the world and the world spills into us.” Inhales and exhales. They’re still one breath. Wah. Allegiance to Gratitude. I want the Words printed on my wall. I can read them every day. I should memorize it. It’s good. It’s very Good. My arrow of gratitude today is pointing towards every comment in this thread I’m about to devour. Feed me! Thank you!

haw

Lou im using this as an opportunity to also gush about how smart and wonderful everyone is and how happy I am to be reading this book along with kindred spirits!! Thank you for explaining oikos in more depth! I have been wrestling with some of the individual/communal aspects of this book as well, and I think you cleared up an important point for me. Soooo interesting how the greek saw the immediate family unit as a form of individualism. how breaking away from family is not individualistic at all, but rather something made to be in service of a larger community. coming from a non-western background, I find myself falling into this trap. since my family lost the immediate community that they understood and related to and knew how to be of service to when they fled to the west, we’ve slipped into being family oriented in the individualistic sense you just described. I enjoyed the section where she struggled to justify a swimmable pond! I think going to far into not-disturbing wild life/nature is forgetting that we are part of this ecology too, and that its not always useful to separate ourselves from it. when do you think we are playing god and when are we participating? love to hear what u think.

haw

Matthew book club is non-linear and forever you are never late!!!! I agree on the non-violence, I think you articulated what I tried to communicate to @lou corben much better. We’re part of nature too! We need to walk around and sometimes walking around makes us step on an ant without meaning to. the essay on gratitude is my favorite from this section. I think its sooo important to separate gratitude from privilege/luck. i think about the latter alot. Again, I have anon-western background, and so ive heard every version of ‘Be grateful youre here, not there’ that CJ mentioned further up. Im not grateful. Im lucky yes, I recognize that. But I cant ignore the violence & exploitation that was necessary for my relative comfort. how can I be grateful for something that is given to me conditionally, and when the conditions are mostly unfair? im grateful for the physical space i inhabit, because it was given unconditionally, and i recognize that, and because i do, we are one. that is not the same as showing gratitude to a state! but ill stop before getting too political lmao

haw

Love that you found the visuals for the book wowie thats exactly how I picture the maple essay goin down .

Lou Corben

Thanks for responding! <3 I think parallels can be drawn between the Greek idea of Oikos and the current Western idea of the nuclear family under capitalism, how it’s often prioritised over community, and how it reflects the patriarchal structure of society. It also brings up notions of found family for me, something I’ve always been drawn to as a Queer person with a tense relationship with my own nuclear family, especially as I was growing up. At 34, I think I’m still looking for my found family. I thought I’d found one in my 20s but it was made up of mostly straight people who have “moved on” to their little relationship bubbles. Again… the idea of how we prioritise 2-person romantic relationships above all others… I agree with you about us being part of this ecology. I don’t think Kimmerer made the wrong decision by any means, I was just a bit annoyed by her trying to justify it lol Playing god vs participating is such an interesting way of thinking about it. My instinctive answer is to draw a distinction between motivations and methodologies. Kimmerer is disturbing the ecosystem as an act of love for her daughters, acknowledges the disturbance and does her best to minimise it. An act of playing God would be a big corporation dumping waste into lakes: it doesn’t care about disturbance or damage and its only motive is profit. I suspect there may be more to come on this in ‘Braiding Sweetgrass’. There’s something striking in the idea of *playing* God, too - God doesn’t act this way, only humans with the hubris to think they can be Gods. Thanks for helping me think this through :)

Lou Corben

"I can't say I would feel like I was close with a partner if they only let me see them pruned and perfected." wow yes.

annie liz

GREEK LESSON GREEK LESSON THANK YOU!!! love etymology from ancient languages and people who know things explaining them to me who knows nothing thank you!!! That adds more for me to the chapter, whether unintentionally or intentionally on Kimmerers part (art testimony etc etc). I think examining the concept of home and individualistic/communal aspects of "home" is a hidden tension throughout the book, for western-based minds especially. What is home when you keep giving home to others? It's always "feed me!" but what happens when reciprocity is not, in fact, reciprocated? Is the solution to just keep going, regardless of the individual suffering, because the group health is just as rewarding to the individual and the rest of the world will catch on/catch up? Or is it time for individualized focus for the sake of the self? Are those two really that separate? I haven't seen(/experienced?) a Rothko before, but I have seen my fair share of squares that made me emotional ("that's what ur mo-"). I think in general the key is, unfortunately, just a shit ton of patience. It's not a fun answer, but the most accurate one I can find at the moment, and the one I feel the book often pointing to as well

valentin

I can very much relate to the urge to just Ctrl + C & Ctrl + V everything and saying " !!!! Yeah" The fear of dirtiness is a symptom and a cause of our current distance to nature. Humans are really fucking up the earth rn and I think that is in part because we aren't connected to it. People care more about things they are close to, connecting people to nature again is really important if we want to preserve our planet. I think that is something Kimmerer really success in with this book. It's no substitute for touching grass and rolling in the dirt but through her beautiful prose she does make me feel a little closer to nature.

Kai Nahas

I wish Kimmerer would delve more into the metaphysical aspects of this cosmology she seems to be building up to: Plants as subjects. Ok, like this is all well and good and spiritual but I mean, can we address how cellular respiration is actually a nightmare?? Good for the autotrophs but like… Maybe this is addressed & I’m being unlearned? I’m very curious as to whether the botanical & evolutionary explanations behind secondary metabolites will be weaved into the narrative as plants as subjects with stories to tell, songs they are singing. The story is always of types of mutualism? So what of the songs that the flytrap sings to the fly? This mycelial reframing of, botany, taxonomy, language, proprioception really - does it reveal anything fundamental about the nature of the universe we find ourselves submersed in?

Carol N.

Coherent paragraphs diffy have some fancified bullet points: Framing the witch hazel plant as a reminder from god that there’s always something good sent me on a trail to find other things like that. would be good to have near when things get difficult Aside from its main premise, I think the book is pointing me towards how important it is to find respect for your surroundings but for yourself as well, the awareness and kindness and healthy selfishness you need to allow yourself to spend your free time on a pond seemingly beyond repair. it’s all about balance Two years ago I spent a week living at a farmhouse, and my everyday task (besides chasing mice out of my basement cave bedroom) was to carry stones from one side of the garden to another. Felt like a proper Sisyphus, but it needed to be done so the grass would be safe to mow. The two people that volunteered with me left a couple days in, which meant I had SO much time to think, to befriend bugs. Back then it honestly didn’t feel like it mattered, however, because that communal aspect of it was gone, and I would not be back to ever see the results. A striking experience compared to the summers we’d spend in my grandparents garden, distributing tasks and preparing meals together. Indeed, “for some things we need each other.” “The best I could do was to be respectful and not let the small lives go to waste” and “our work and our joy is to pass along the gift and to trust that what we put out into the universe will always come back” might as well be the only words i am ever allowed to say. completely dismantles any need for contemporary cynicism. suck it. “I would walk the pasture to the top of the hill to start the day properly, with birdsong and shoes soaked in dew and the clouds still pink” honestly (and maybe a bit romantically) think doing this would solve like 90% of my problems, but we seemed to have made this so difficult. feel the same about holding hands, or making your own juice. simple things we made unachievable. “Imagine raising children in a culture in which gratitude is the first priority.” this line had me go and research differences in showing and perceiving gratitude in countries such as South Korea and China, where gratitude, or rather a sense of responsibility or debt to parents, affects a lot of the biggest life choices. Obviously the nature aspect of it has slowly fizzled out (thanks capitalism), but I felt like this might have been the closest we got to what she’s describing on a major scale. There's a Yes magazine article that lists some interesting papers on this. Any debate on aging instantly brings me back to this John Darnielle quote: “I don’t think that I accepted that I wasn’t gonna die young until I was 26 or 27. I really don’t think I fully…when I was 14, 15, 16, 17–I mean I knew as sure as I know that I am wearing green shoes that I was going to die before much happened. It was a certainty for me. And I had shaken off the directly suicidal urge by the time I was 21 or 22, but I still was pretty sure I was going to die pretty young, it really felt like an inevitability. It takes a long time to realize no, you’ve changed…if you shared those feelings with people at some point you go, ‘well, I guess we’re going to stick around.’ And it’s a funky thing to admit because there’s a part of your inner younger self that kind of judges you for that.” I remember thinking I wasn’t guilty of this, of thinking I was gonna die young. I mean I’m constantly so worried about the far future (thanks INFJness). Now I can’t unsee it. The way we were jokingly worried about retirement plans at 12, and it is the furthest thing from my mind now. Has such a major effect on your views and actions. was giddy about cj’s mention of Grimes’ So Heavy, as I have spent the past few months of my life adapting the MissAnthro album into a live dance dissertation (very art student of me, I know), and the ethical and existential spirals that I’ve been in because of it…. Particularly relevant to A Mother’s Work is how c pointed out that our concept of evolution is more about survival and engineering than about motherhood, or love. To me, that entire piece of works seems to be dealing with that conflict of placing oneself above nature, wanting to save it, wanting to maintain an individual self while craving connection. I think this book is calming me down in this process, the same way I imagine the act of braiding sweetgrass would.

Halley

“it’s not exactly liberty if they force you to say it, is it?”

Halley

Thinking about Gratitude and Reciprocity. Responsibility and gifts. The tulips and nut and fruit trees in the place I live, purposefully planted perennials for future inhabitants, for me for now. The unmarked grave in the garden, the little wooden cross and pile of stones. Shards of pottery that show up in the soil as I dig to plant purple carrots. Everything sparking questions of, who lived here before, tending this land, and what were their lives like? How much food has this little lawn has produced over the years, and what have its inhabitants lived through- world wars, balkan wars, communist rule, ottoman occupation, village life through the eras... Our neighbor 'baba' scraping weeds every morning at 98. Trying to communicate through voice recordings, notecards, and very insufficient Bulgarian over the fence as we exchange grapes, flowers, cucumbers, walnuts. Not sure if she understands what an audiobook is much less the internet, so I answer that I'm an artist, work from home. With computer. Wondering what she thinks of these strange foreigners who moved in next door, in this land she's watched from over the fence for almost a century. "Their gift to me is far greater than I have the ability to reciprocate… perhaps all I can do is love them. All I know to do is to leave another gift" I feel like all I can really do and show her is that I'm trying my best to keep up with it all and keep growing and harvesting food and enjoying and sharing what I have, to honor the gifts and opportunity of the place I live. "Appreciation begets abundance" I listened to the story of cleaning the algae while weeding in my garden, thinking of the sacrifice that is necessary for creation and new growth, in the presence of abundance. After foraging for a long time, in maintaining my own garden I am having to learn to not get too attached to the plants and weeds... The thanksgiving address was what stuck with me most from my first read- I remember wanting to print it and recite it every morning. I especially love how leadership is exemplified in qualities to aspire to from other earth forms rather than in other humans, and her eloquent takedown of patriotism/nationalism/the US pledge of allegiance. "I couldn't understand how love of country could omit recognition of the actual country itself. The only promise it requires is to a flag. What if the promise is to each other, to the land? What would it be like to be raised on gratitude? To speak to the natural world as a member of a democracy of species, to raise a pledge of interdependence? No declarations of political loyalty are required. Just a response to the repeated question, can we agree to be grateful for all that is given? Something I really admire in Kimmerer's work is that, as brutal and honest as she is, she illustrates a vision to aspire to rather than getting stuck in how bad things have become. Putting forth a vision of how things could be, what she'd like for things to be like. Illustrating the intended outcome like a modern day folklorist. The way she connects stories of natural processes and humanity in such an intimate poetic story. "I had known it would happen from the first time I held her. From that moment on, all her growing would be away from me. It is the fundamental unfairness of parenthood.. That if we do our jobs well, the deepest bond we are given will walk out the door with a wave over the shoulder." This got me. My mom is having a hard time with me living overseas, though she always encouraged me to travel and be independent. It's a constant battle of trying to honor all that she's given me with my own decisions of how I need to live my life. I think the time I spend with my parents feels more precious because there is less of it. Making the maple sugar together sounded like such a special experience to share with her daughters. There is so much value in learning what goes into making the things you consume every day, an experience of exponential gratitude from putting in the labor even once. Learning how to make things myself makes me grateful and discerning when purchasing, or empowered to make/grow it myself later on. Learning things like how to process coffee, cacao, rosehips, nettles, growing food, doing farm work, learning a new craft and realizing how much effort goes into it. it's all very humbling in a way that feels necessary.

margaret (formerly Samson)

I have been confused each time I read this and I feel like I'm missing something. Can you maybe expand on what it is that you'd like her to say? Is it simply that you'd like her to talk about what answer she would give, regarding how horrifying it is to be a mouse in the face of a cat, to the mouse?

annie liz

"As brutal and honest as she is, she illustrates a vision to aspire to rather than getting stuck in how bad things have become," !!! hard agree on this; it prevents a certain kind of nihilistic pessimism you see in a lot of conversations about our relationship to the earth, or our country for that matter. She doesn't AVOID our current relationship with it or dress it up to make it palatable, BUT she doesn't STOP there either. Providing a path forward makes all the difference in that line between critique and condemnation

Natthew Lee

Hey! Popping in late because I had some crazy big projects due these past weeks that monopolized my time. Nice that it coincides with such a light section. I loved all of the essays here but I feel like they are more self-evident than the last section. Sweet stories that are True but I don’t have much to say about a lot of them! A Mother’s Work is the obvious exception to this. A parable for the ages, so much truth here. At the beginning really resonates: ”He said that he no longer wanted a life with so much responsibility, so the responsibility was all mine. I was grateful that, if nothing else, I could at least paint a bedroom purple.” (82) The cleaning of the pond edges into an ends-justifying-the-means sterilization at parts. Could be a terrible obsession, but her eye remains focused on the reason why she is doing it. If she wanted to, she could pave over the pond with a concrete swimming pool, but she doesn’t. “As I raked and plucked, it challenged my conviction that all lives are valuable, protozoan or not. As a theoretical matter, I hold this to be true, but on a practical level it gets murky, the spiritual and the pragmatic bumping heads.” (90) She moves with respect, with her crosshairs aimed at her metaphysical values. Then at the end “What I do here matters. Everybody lives downstream” (97) It would be so so easy for her to find nihilism in the Work of pond cleaning. The same muck every day, and for what? A slightly nicer pond? But again, if nothing else, she can at least paint a bedroom purple. We do what we can. It’s never enough, but it is always enough. Your expectations matter less than your values. How you do is just as important as What you do. This entire section feels like it’s supporting A Mother’s Work, with two sweet stories as a prelude, and the two essays following as a reverent coda. Ok thats all my thoughts for today!! nat

haw

Aaannieeeee I love what you said about minimalism and that ‘relationships are nots not developed by tentatively wading at the edge.’ Its easy to think somethings wrong when its hard or resists and writhes, when it spills and makes a mess. But thats just life babey. i love how she slowly realizes this . stand on the edge, no okay get wellies, no! Fuck it! Get in there!!! i Agree with you @Valentin as well with re: fear of dirtiness we all seem to have. modernity = clean = controlled sterile relationship with nature. i think its useful to overcome that in order to have a meaningful interaction with nature. i dont get my fingers dirty beyond changing the soil of my one monstera plant once a year. is this the relationship with nature kimmerer is describing? i find that something thats 'perfect' and 'ordered' to be pacifying, it sort of evades your attention? something about it being a little off, difficult, dirty wakes ur senses up a bit.

haw

agreeing with samson here, would love an expansion on this! if i were to guess what you are alluding to, is it why we seem to favor the ‘romanticized story’ of nature above the more gnarly bits? youre right, its not all gifts and harmony all the time. If so, I think you raise a fair and interesting point. it taps into the separation between humans and nature as well. Why are the bad things we do unnatural? Whats the difference between the meat industry and some other carnivores hunting animals until they go extinct? To this I believe context is crucial. this book seems to be a response to the increased harm and disillusionment people have felt due to the climate crisis, environmental destruction, extinction of species etc. How can we tackle these issues? What stories are useful in this pursuit? what stories are useful in order for us to honor nature’s inherent value? i think this is what kimmerer is ultimately trying to offer.

haw

Think its interesting that the work became more potent to you when doing it with others. not a requirement, as Kimmerer does alot of the tending on her own so far in the book. But definitely something that should and needs to be emphasized. for some things we need each other <3 ‘might as well be the only words i am ever allowed to say. completely dismantles any need for contemporary cynicism. suck it.’ YEEESSSS !!!!!! shoutout to grimes. dance dissertation to miss anthro sounds sick

haw

!!!!Appreciation begets abundance. Thinking about people that are distant from me specially and temporally. the plants and earth acting as a medium in our communion. I agree with the hope kimmerer sparks with this book. seconding annie right above me, and carol N also a little further up, its an antidote for contemporary cynicism. Suck it!!! Thank You for sharing the story about the bulgarian baba that really warmed my heart

haw

good to see u natthew and always appreciate ur input!!! Good luck on big crazy projects

haw

i appreciated the cohesiveness this time around too, made the points more salient

sal3m

"We do what we can. It’s never enough, but it is always enough." I'l remember this. Thank you. I'll show my gratefulness with a completely unrelated thought I had that made me happy: going to the supermarket is like one of the many choreographies of the humane; everything is planned, everyone works together and sometimes you get a little spotlight moment when you and another shopper twirl around eachother to grab something but not get into the others way. I try to pay attention to these daily 'dances' now, it makes me happy and maybe it'll make you happy as well.

sal3m

Question: Kimerer keeps referring to gifts as things that should be passed along and that they will come back. Could anyone with an example explain to me what she means by this? Or is it for your own interpretation?

valentin

i am also wishing you good luck on those crazy projects of yours, hope they turn out Good!

valentin

I think she means that when you offer a gift you are entering into a relationship of reciprocity with that person and you will get something in return, at some point in time. kind of like karma maybe (?) at least thats my interpretation

reva

wow a mother's work is really fantastic. i honestly feel neutral about a lot of media about parenting, but this essay in particular really got through to me. i think it's beautiful to take a forgotten place like that pond and make it a home, and i loved the way she described trying to do her best by both the denizens of the pond and her own kids. it's the kind of thing i've daydreamed about doing with certain spots in my neighborhood that are sadly not "owned" by me. i don't have as much to say about this section as the last one, i feel like the first section laid down a lot of big ideas i needed time to process and this one settled into them a bit more with extended stories. i am excited to slowly chew my way through the rest of this book!

phil e the theyby

Once I got used to the perspective, I really didn't mind Kimmerer taking a role outside of her own subjectivity to tell the story in "Witch Hazel." It positions it outside of her own interiority and into the realm of larger interconnectivity. One night I was really struggling to fall asleep despite being super tired, so I continued reading this, and the chapter I read was "A Mother's Work." It's rare for me to feel so drawn in and so enthralled while simultaneously being so physically tired. But the way that Kimmerer breaks the "noble savage" trope or the kind of beautiful ideal of harmony by recognizing the pragmatic reality of the situation: "Short, single-celled lives were ended because I wanted a clear pond. I'm bigger, I have a rake, so I win. That's not a worldview I readily endorse. But it didn't keep me awake at night, or halt my efforts; *I simply acknowledged the choices I was making*" (90, emphasis mine) She offers no defense or justification. She also doesn't offer a meaningful dismissal of the critique. She acknowledges the reality and she acts in accordance with what feels right and true in the moment. It feels open to other perspectives and open to change over time. It might be one of the most honest displays of choice and values that I've seen, and one that allows for actual movement and action rather than getting stuck in moral philosophizing, while also not dismissing the value or importance of moral philosophy. Oddly, I thought of Bo Burnham, who I also think is quite good at recognizing his impact and the ways in which it can be problematic, while still choosing to act meaningfully and intentionally. I'm not gonna write about every chapter here because they're all so different, but "Allegiance to Gratitude" hit me SO HARD. Obviously the Thanksgiving Address is really powerful (and I love the ways in which it maintains a ritualistic quality while also drawing on the unique perspectives and voice of each speaker). But for me, it got me thinking of my own relationship to "gratitude." I've always been really annoyed at people who talk about gratitude a lot, because in my experience it's always felt like a deep dismissal of the bad things that are going on in the world. A lot of this comes from growing up as a White suburbanite in a liberal area of the U.S.; we're told to be grateful for the privileges we have. But I'm not grateful for those at all. I wouldn't be glad if someone beat up another kid, took her lunch money, and handed it to me, and that's what economic privilege feels like to me. I'm also not grateful for suburban life and the isolation and alienation it begets. A privileged gratitude is inherently dismissive of suffering, because it means turning away from the oppression that is the necessary flipside of your own privilege. But the Thanksgiving Address is nothing like that. It's a gratitude for the world and the fundamental reality that we all occupy, and that is much older and deeper than any of our systems of privilege and oppression. I love how Kimmerer points out that it connects us not only to a shared reality, but to shared responsibilities. It grounds us in what truly matters between all of us, which I think is such an important foundation of anyone trying to build a world where all people can be safe, cared for, supported, and given the chance to speak their voice and offer their gifts. I think that the intense care and responsibility created by all of the themes identified in the Thanksgiving Address are such a powerful antidote to that intense complacency that White suburban "gratitude" offers. That's the end I don't have closing thoughts