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[Pictured: first page of Justine, one of the vulgar pornographic works for which Marquis de Sade was imprisoned in the early 1800s]

Well, you're not gonna believe this, but chapter 2 made me uncomfortable! There were hurtful words and subjects discussed that i would consider taboo!!!!!!!!!!

I would've warned you about the horrible RIP trolling stuff that 4chan does in this chapter but I didn't know about it, so we are all just experiencing it together! How exciting. 

I could reconfigure my life so that I read the entirety of books in advance of Book Club but honestly I kind of prefer to be doing it with everyone in real time, which leaves me incapable of trigger warning everything, much like real life. So instead let it be known we do swashbuckling adventures in the Kill The Internet Book Club! Tightrope walking above an inferno with the safety of our community to balance us out.

I'd say this is the second kind of difficult spiky text we've done (I see you Lila vets) and I always look forward to just how people peel it apart.

Speaking of which, the How To Do Nothing Book Report is done! It's 31 pages, and I'll release it + a new essay on my freshly redesigned website sometime this week!

Here's another hit of it:

So remember to take littol pics of yoruself and your environment and your annotations as u read Kill All Normies and type out your wonderful reflections because we would love to include you in Book Report #2.

Transgression

I guess I am a transgressive person in a fundamental sense, but I really don't consciously value being transgressive. I like dark humour and I'm interested in conversations that seem too dangerous to have, and stuff like that, but that's just a personality trait, and ultimately I don't think those are smart or proper behaviours to exercise constantly publicly without some judiciousness. As I get a little older I notice how badly i want to be able to be like, normal at parties lmfao. I also notice how bad I am at it, how much of a skill it is to be considerate.

I am quite risque and disruptive and sacrilegious, if you know me. But I'm also very reverent to tradition and practice, If you really know me.

It's kind of similar to the place Nagle believes transgressive feminists find themselves in. Transgression is obviously a major tactic in the history of social justice activism. After all, any disruption of the status quo and assertion of an alternative value system will necessarily be interpreted as transgressive to the dominant order. 

Stallybrass and White considered the carnivalesque to be a form of radical transgression against hierarchy and hegemony: 'The grotesque tends to operate as a critique of a dominant ideology which has already set the terms designating what is high and what is low' (p. 35)

But when transgression itself is taken as it's own value, we confront the pure potential of chaos without direction, without limitation. It can dynamically enhance the badassery of bigotry precisely as well as it can enhance the badassery of a moral cause.

I sometimes think that because I'm a naturally revolutionary and transgressive personality, it is my lot in life to move towards tradition, peacemaking, collectivism. It's what my heart yearns for, what I was born without. I'm never gonna lack the ability to make highly individualistic Death Instinct things about how special and unique I am, so I should be stretching to reach for the Life Instinct values of community service, conforming, for lack of a better word.

Tying Trangression to the Ukeles's Death Instinct actually makes it very clear very quickly.

Baille revered transgression in and of itself, and like de Sade viewed non-procreative sex as an expression of the sovereign against instrumentalism, what he called 'expenditure without reserve'. For him excessive behavior without purpose, which also characterizes the sensibility of contemporary meme culture in which enormous human effort is exerted with no obvious personal benefit, was paradigmatically transgressive in an age of Protestant instrumental rationality. (p. 35)

I had a very fascinating conversation with an artist in her 40s that I briefly cohabitated with in Parkdale. She was expressing concern that in our modern era we've increased our language for accountability and safety around sex, but had sacrificed a lot of the sexual liberation that she and her culture had pushed for in her 20s. She thought in chasing a moral cause, we'd lost some of the play  and fortitude that transgression allowed for, and hoped we would try to reclaim some of that moving forward.

The Gen Z Sexual Puritanism is much discussed I think on Tik Tok? But I don't look at Tik Tok because it makes my head hurt, so I leave that to you.

During the recent online culture wars, and their spillover into campus and protest politics, feminists have tried to embrace transgression with the Slut Walk movement and sex-positive pro-trans, pro-sex worker and pro-kink culture that was central to Tumblr. However, like the right, it has run up against a deep philosophical problem about the ideologically flexible, a style, which can characterize misogyny just as easily as it can sexual liberation. (p. 37)

This, by the way, is why I don't tend to love dirtbag left style stuff. "Edgy" content creators. I just think that ironic, post-ironic edginess slides so easily into transgression for transgression's sake, and ultimately a lack of care.

As Lach understood, for progressive politics anti-moral transgression has always been a bargain with the devil, because the case for equality is essentially a moral one" (p. 38)

I try to strike a careful balance with my content and online presence. Don't make it safe, don't make it fall over itself apologizing for things, but don't give people permission to just Not Care. I've been happy with the results so far.

"... the transgressive anti-moral style, its final detachment from any egalitarian philosophy of the left or Christian morality of the right." (p. 39)

This quote strangely brought Andrew Tate to mind very vividly. I don't spend much time thinking about him! Becuase I find him very ugly, and I try not to think about ugly things (caus theyre ugly). However this description of transgression without reference to equality OR divine order, justifying itself on vague allusions to both, made me think of that ugly guy. Skimming the surface of ideology and philosophy, but the only thing really tying it all together is the petty, cheap, social media savy transgression.

I've always been so furious at people's inability to ignore such things, to ignore people who gain power when you say their name. Covering the raucous antics of Trump, even making jokes about them or being outraged, kind of reminds me of publicizing the names of school shooters lmfao. Sorry is that too fucking opinionated of me?! Are we POLITICAL NOW?!?!?!

Just my feelings. What are yours

Politics & Culture

And now we dig into some repressed memories!!!

I FORGOT about the Buzzfeed Listacle Quiz era. I forgot about Upworthy and the pervasive liberal clickbait Facebook trashiness of the early 2010s. Absolutely bonkers to be throttled back into my 13 year old body on such a Sunday as this.

Nagle, ever the opiniated historian, describes Vice magazine as "the most degenerate combination of vacuous hipster aesthetics and pornified transgression". I admit I am laughing. 

Ben Shaprio: I dislike him greatly. I'm not very interested in him he doesn't appear particularly talented or necessary or useful to me personally. Sometimes I get close to regretting that moment in my Bo Burnham video where "my heart lurched towards Ben Shapiro". Yet this chapter reminds me why I felt that way, and why I decided to include that moment in my piece on internet insanity. 

Shapiro wrote that under Bannon's leadership, 'Brietbart has become the alt-right go-to website... pushing white ethno-nationalism as a legitimate response to political correctness, and the comment section turning into a cesspool for white supremacist mememakers." (p. 48) 

This fact he has his faith, and that his faith pushes him away from the most decadent transgression of his own culture war faction, gives me hope. Not for him, I don't care about him (ugly), but hope for humanity to prevail in some of these uphill climbs. Hope that even people I disagree with and dislike have some shards of common humanity within them that can be accessed and cultivated by the right story. Hope that there is some sort of Ugly and Beautiful that we can agree on, that can work somehow.

Yet the raw realities of audience capture and capitalistic growth via riding the flames of the division repulse me, and it's hard to sympathize with Shapiro when he so gleefully rode the culture war to fame and fortune in the most shameless manner possible. 

those whose ascendant careers depended upon not punching right." (p. 49)

I can never get over Shapiro's past as a failed screenplay writer, and the current attempt of The Daily Wire to move into culture creation. It fascinates me. You can't make culture, so you instead make your money and fame as a transgressive culture critic. Then use that money and fame to try to make culture, and fail, because you still don't have the juice. To have worshipped this pattern of outrage and mockery, then try to pivot to art, but lacking the muscle mass to do what Art is supposed to do. So tragic. 

There's this old long lesson that I really... want to believe is true? That integrity wins somehow? That poisonous spiritual behaviour begets rotten fruits. Of course, there will always be the God of Job: things can go sideways for reasons totally out of your control, genuine random tragedy. But I *think* it matters whether or not you join the leopards eating people's face Party, so I'm kind of encouraged and depressed at how quickly Milo's snarky ironic reactionary fanbase dropped him as an icon when his opportune fun dissipated. 

"...today, since Milo's career has been destroyed, to the indifference or even glee of the alt right he was promoting..." (p. 49)

I try to tell people with my job to think carefully, stop tweeting, slow down. Think. Integrity.... has an impact. In the Quality, if not Quantity, of your successes in the world.

It is important to make the number go up, but if you don't make the number go up the right way, you might find yourself very far from where you intended to be.

This is why I've grown so interested in Pragmatism as a philosophy for the digital age. What works? And works for what? These are the questions I find infinitely more pressing than "What is Objectively Correct?".

Ahhh, always so fun to launch my vulnerable thoughts out there on these. I have to speak first! Imagine my shaky knees.

I compile my quotes & thoughts Saturday, then I wake up early Sunday morning and refine it over coffee. Then I post it and go to church. 

So off to church I go.

Let me know what you thought:

Transgression & Religious Dogma Below!

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Comments

azalea water

reading this feels like looking through old history books and going “oh, we’ve always been like this, haven’t we?” --(TRANS)GRESSION-- i think analysing 4chan through the lens of transgression is the perfect way to try and describe it. the alt-right was (is?) mostly a movement composed of young men who’d become disillusioned when they felt like the mainstream was trying to take something away from them. their reaction was to troll for shits. when the /b/ user describes the site’s occupants as “cockblocking”, callling a “suicide hotline to hit on the advisor” (p32), dehumanising women and having deep mental illness for a solid 300 words - it’s sad. it’s this mindset of “i know this isn’t right, i know i’m not alright, fuck you.” i keep thinking about that ‘trans to incell pipeline’ video someone posted last week. I wonder how many of those men on /b/ ended up as trans women. i’m a trans girl, and i can tell you first hand that most of us aren't really the hypermasculine type. to paraphrase contrapoints, it’s a lot of melancholic drunks and poetic types. we tend to be susceptible as a group. it is all too easy for the eggs among us to fall in with the wrong crowd. there’s gotta be a lot of girls who fell into this ideology of self-hatred and ironic bigotry in the name of transgression who are still working through overcoming it with the hindsight of their transness. i hope they’re alright. i think a lot of this book is about how ideas and tools can be co-opted by different groups to radically different results. like leaderless movements in the first chapter, transgression can be used by anyone. i think Stallybrass and White are right when they say “the grotesque tends to operate as a critique of a dominant ideology” (p35) - it’s just that online whatever side isn’t yours is the dominant ideology because of how the internet removes physical space and scale as factors. 4chan was transgressing against their perception of mainstream culture with self-deprecating angst and irony, while tumblr transgressed with inclusivity, or twitter with call-out culture. --MEDIA– “One thing that can’t be denied is their remarkable success in spreading their ideas through their own alternative and almost exclusively online media content in the absence of traditional media” - p48 there’s this clip of Steven fry on the Graham Norton show in 2009 talking about twitter, and he goes “it’s not called ‘social change’ or ‘heavy debate, it’s called twitter!” even in 2009, people knew it was reductive. media in the mid-2010s was in a really weird place. we weren’t fully out of the age of cable tv and newspapers and social media was quickly becoming thee place to hold political and cultural conversations. it kinda democratised journalism. with the rise of blogs, the internet was a place where anyone could write something up and have an audience. that shift in media was the perfect time for the alt-right to come to fruition. they used internet culture and the fast-paced rhythm of it all to spread. they used cringe, comedy, memes and trolling (“Social Justice Warriors Piss On Your Free Speech” - p43). And it worked! when 4chan culture broke into the mainstream with Trump, there was this shift in the feeling of politics. online politics went from being internet culture to more or less being culture. media has already shifted so much in the last 7 years since Nagle wrote Kill All Normies. legislation is announced online. brands are influencers. if you wanna create you are forced to rely on a host site. a UI change can just completely shift how we talk to one another. like CJ said in their Bo Burnham video, our souls are in this bitch. twitter’s dying, tiktok and short form videos are growing and idk what’s coming next. but whatever it is is going to have an undefinable effect on our politics. (steven fry interview - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28F4FgxoQns)

Alex Dian

I’d say I use to be quite transgressive, but perhaps due to the consequences I’ve seen time and time again (on both ‘sides’), that I’ve much preferred protecting my own energy. Going on the defensive. I’d say that is also true amongst my friends. The internet culture this book talks about definitely swallowed me up back then. How grateful I am to be out of it.

Shrub Dryad

I'm a bit behind on the reading, so please forgive me if Nagle returns to this later, but it feels to me like there's something very off about including Slut Walk in a list of things that are about transgression, sex-positivity, and kink-positivity. It certainly participated in those discussions, but that's not how it started. As I remember it (and I was already an adult and a parent at the time), Slut Walk was a parade where women marched the streets wearing the same clothes they had been wearing at the time they were sexually assaulted. The purpose was to say, "Look at me. Did I dress slutty? Was I asking for it? Did I deserve it?" Many of the outfits were T-shirts and jeans, or day dresses, or pajamas. I think wearing more overtly sexual clothing became a part of it pretty quickly, because in fact there is no possible outfit that makes it okay to do that to a person, and we might as well make that point. But still, it was much more about "we want violence to stop" and less about "we want sexual fulfilment." Those statements are friends, but they're not the same person, you know? It's one thing to push for sex positivity, and it's a different, closely related thing to push for being able to just walk around safely. Horribly, this second movement is also a transgression against the status quo. But I think conservative people like to fixate on the flashier stuff *specifically* because they don't want to address or acknowledge the T-shirt and jeans stuff.

Chandler Sterling

This book has really shifted my approach to writing for the book club. I typically try to keep things light and fluffy because I am used to being in charge of morale in my circles. Kill All Normies is not something that needs to be made light and fluffy though, and it's giving me pause on how I should be interacting with it. At every turn, I have to contend with awful shit without trying to escape into something more comfortable. I find some relief in the fact that this struggle with myself seems to be completely antithetical to the alt-light/right ideology of transgression. "They're explaining to me their version of what trolls do. 'It's not bulling,' says Cochrane. 'It's satirical performance art.'" (pg. 30) Eww. I know it's nothing new to call horrible shit "satire" as a Get Out of Jail Free card, but performance art?? I'm still not over how immoral it feels to say art and trolling within a mile of each other. I tried to make sense of it using the Metaphysics of Quality last time, but Nagle puts it like this, "The psychopath, like the artist, privileges id over superego and desire over moral constraints." (pg. 31) I think that is another good way of seeing this. The art they like is along the lines of American Psycho and Fight Club, and it doesn't matter that they don't have the media literacy to see that those films are indictments of their actions. To them, that is an expression of who they are. It still doesn't sit well in my stomach, but at least I can understand that when they say "art" they mean something completely different and far less holy. As CJ put it, they, "still don't have the juice." I have a bad habit of letting the anonymous nature of these trolls cut both ways. Because they are being cowardly, I don't feel the need to treat them as fully 3-dimensional people - they're just a monolith. But clearly people have broken free and feel genuine regret for their actions, so how do I handle that? It's not a simple moral dilemma; I never want to let sympathy for a bully overshadow the need to aid the victims, but you can't just ignore the fact that the bully can be a victim too. Some of these people are in these spaces in a misguided attempt to seek help for genuine issues in their lives. Dismissing them as irredeemable sometimes feels immoral, and yet, you can only help so many people and you probably shouldn't start with vindictive assholes. I just feel a bit at a loss on what to do with it all. A lot of people on the alt-right are members of the same groups their community hates. It's sad but not surprising how quickly things dissolved into in-fighting the second Trump won the election. I guess the best way to describe what I'm getting at is that hidden among a waterfall of batshit metaphors about what /b/ is, is this line: "/b/ is the only one who understands what the hell you are saying." (pg. 32) I cannot stomach a lot of the things these people do, but to them, this is the only community they have. What the hell do you DO with that? Nagle has been doing a good job of holding these people accountable for the community they built while still respecting the fact that these ARE people. It's a task I do not envy because to the left you look like an alt-right sympathizer, and to the right you look like a snooty leftist. I'm trying to give Nagle the space to work right now, and I'm being rewarded with a more useful view of how we got where we are today. I hope what I'm saying is coming across the right way. I don't feel bad for the alt-right, but I do feel some sympathy for the people who got (and are still getting) swept up in it all without thinking. This book has really tried to understand how someone can end up in these spaces from an arm's length, and I think it's useful to understand that I have a bias against wanting to understand a person/group who does things I despise. The Internet definitely has a large hand in making the alt-right possible. The anonymity it provides and the ease of access to any perspective possible about every topic imaginable make it a perfect breeding ground for transgression to the extremes. What I hadn't considered was how the Death of Boredom that the Internet provides might factor in to it all. "...ennui, boredom and inertia requires a counterforce of extreme transgression." (pg. 35) It is culturally impermissible to be bored for more than a second at a time, and if transgression really is the best way to kill the boredom, then you can find countless new targets to transgress against online. And when the old stuff doesn't scratch the same itch, you can always take it just a little farther. The snowball effect is so obvious in hindsight. I forgot, or maybe never realized, just how much the Obama-era liberal media only talked about left-leaning people in a negative light. The right was a foregone conclusion; they had lost, and so it was really just punching down to focus on them at all. Which implicitly meant that if the right was critiquing liberal and leftist media, then they were punching up or being sore losers. Either way, nothing to concern yourself with. Chapter 3 was interesting (terrifying) because in a lot of ways, it shows how abruptly transgression shifted from left spaces to the right. The alt-right took a shocking number of cues from the other side of the fence. "[Lauren Southern] challenged the protesters in a mocking style that reminded me very much of the genre perfected by liberal media during the rise of the Tea Party movement, in which the interviewees were always made to look stupid." (pgs. 45-46) "It appears as though in the online culture wars, those heeding the ideas of the left most closely [...] were the right." (pg. 53) Fuck. I'm going to keep trying to take this book deadly seriously despite how uncomfortable it makes me. I think that's the best antidote to this trangression-for-its-own-sake ideology. Show them that you can look into the void without blinking. Maybe they'll be inspired to follow suit. I know there are other options, but for now, that seems like the best I can do.

Emi P

Thoughts on KAN. Ch.2 This almost made my cry out of pain and horror. It’s hard to read but I think at the end it made me realize something about how this type of transgression thing works or at least an hypothesis emerged in my head as to why someone would act like this. This type of transgressions, left or right leaning feel very teenagey to me. It feels like a sign of the immaturity of culture particularly American culture. Like I’ve been transgressive like that to the authorities that have reigned over me. I’ve dressed a certain way just so my mother would get angry. Painted my nails and said offensive words just to get a reaction. I think this happens when an individual realizes it can fight back against certain traditions or rules and transgressions feels like the first act in response of this realization. It’s young and immature and a way to discover one’s agency. I think that this somehow the same in a larger scale. In a society the young people who discover that they can be different and that there is parts of them that are not satisfied with how the world works and so transgression is born. As a reaction to the rules instead of a trying to use the rules and negotiate with the status quo. That comes later in life maybe. Another interesting part for me was the clash between pity and cruelty. I think that even tho cruelty is a worst attitude overall, pity is also so horrible and I understand how someone can dissatisfied with a pitiful society and react with a cruel extreme. Both of this concepts are opposite apparently but they both live in the same kind of ego world in which someone believes themselves superior in some way to the other. In cruelty you believe you’re superior and so then allowed to treat someone as you like and in pity you believe yourself superior morally but also superior to the person you’re pitiful to. The answer is probably in kill the internet fashion neither of them and not even inside of the spectrum. The answer is I think anti hierarchical and to believe yourself the same as the other so you feel not pity but empathy for everybody even the cruel and pitiful. — Ch. 3 This chapter was a little less interesting to me but interesting nonetheless. I have not read anything from Gramsci but the little line about politics approached from a culture and media perspective interests me. I’ve always find it weird that English speaking commentators and analysts tend to approach their theories though media and art analysis. I think America is kind of obsessed with their own media and culture and art production consumption. Everything kind of the revolves around what you consume and what the movie had to say but almost never there’s an action focused approach. That’s what I like about channels like Andrewism that focuses on actionable tactics in the leftist sphere for the modern person. I don’t have much else to say about this chapter. Happy Sunday. QUE DIOS LOS BENDIGA!

Random person

Perhaps coming from my being ESL, but can all of this really be "transgressive" if it's done purely to get approval of your peers? Because I get the feeling that a lot of online transgression is bit. . . for show? I don't know entirely what I'm trying to say. Since we're on the subject of 4chan gamers, I sometimes (ok always) wonder how much they genuinely care about the things they claim infuriate them. I'm reminded of that fellow who recently went viral because the new Bethesda game has the option of picking some kind of non-binary pronouns (I think, forgive me if I'm mistaken as I didn't play the game). He paused his play to scream something that escapes me at this point, probably wasn't important, but the point was that he seemed passionate. . . And then he calmly picked up the game and kept playing, presumably ignoring whatever it was that infuriated him in the first place. I will be honest, I found the clip extremely funny. Because the man clearly did not care, at least not enough to stop playing this game right away. Did he know that? Was that the point he was trying to make? Was that actually performance art, and I missed his point in assuming that he was trying to say that the inclusion of "pronouns" was so serious? This is what I wonder sometimes wonder whenever some 4chan or 8kun troll wanders into my own echo chamber online. Would they ever dare to scream some of their oh-so-transgressice memes at a real person? Obviously some of them go way beyond that and inflict genuine terrifying violence. But what percentage of them go through life being one the anxious accommodating normies they claim to hate so much. And in the spirit of self reflection, how many of us who adopt leftist personas online engage in any leftist actions in real life? How many people who have ACAB on their profile who ever engage in any real conflict with police, as an example? For our own sake, or for the sake of others? Is it possible to even be transgressive online? To what degree?

benedict.m

I have a hard time believing trolls and nihilists. Something CJ said in their fuckin rick & morty video of all things was along the lines of: "irony isn't something you have unless you previously had sincerity that was devasted by reality." and that's what I've always felt. When you meet someone who says really nihilistic, cynical or myopic shit, don't you always feel some deep misery underneath it? Maybe sometimes that's just projection of the fact that I feel bad for people who are aggressively cynical, but I really have trouble believing that that degree of nihilism can be like...a fully consciously integrated belief that someone has a healthy relationship to. It seems to always be a reaction to some pain or disillusionment or wounded ego. Most cynicism dissolves into sadness with just a little truthful self-reflection. But if it doesn't, it can calcify and spread. And help solidify other people's hurt into nihilism too. That's what it feels like happened on 4chan and related pockets of the internet. You can see a lot of those wounds in the history Nagle provides, maybe most clearly when, in the midst of the torrent of metaphors about how cool and edgy and above-it-all /b/ is, this anonymous channer throws in: "/b/ is the uncle who has touched you several times" (p. 32). There is no apparent joke here. This writer clearly feels so much identification and community with /b/, it's an entity he sees as the cool exciting friend to have, as the attitude of detached pleasure he aspires to, as the nihilistic antihero to root for. And then he identifies /b/ also as an abuser. This is really sad and really fascinating to me. From the tone, I think anon is still earnestly praising /b/ as this hedonistic, nihilistic force that has absolutely no morality binding them. This line has the same tone (to me) as "/b/ is the voice in your head that tells you that it doesn't matter if she's drunk." He's trying to evoke the temptation of transgression, this dark voice promising pleasure, but at the same time, whether intentionally or not he's identifying himself as BOTH the abuser AND the abused. (At least I think so, since throughout this ugly manifesto he seems to be both identifying with '/b/' and with the hypothetical 'you.') It suggests this cycle of being abused, then identifying with your abuse(r) so as not to feel the pain of it. So this is all kind of to say that I don't see all of this--the ugly nihilism of chan culture, the rampant harassment, the Trumpian death of meaning, the performative anti-sociality--as 'real' transgression. Because transgression is not a belief system. It's just not, it's a tool that is used within a belief system. The groups we're talking about seem to be conglomerations of people who genuinely worship nihilism as their entire belief system, and people who ACT like they're just being transgressive (or genuinely think that) when their nihilism actually serves something much darker like white supremacy. Needless to say, neither are good! To quote the dungeon master Brennan Lee Mulligan, "Doubt should live in the hands, not in the heart." Genuine transgression is a tool used with thought and intention. It's burning away dead brush for new things to bloom, it's carefully deconstructing a dam to enable natural development, it's taking apart old belief systems to see what parts are worth keeping. Transgression can't be completely indiscriminate and all-encompassing and reactive, or it isn't really transgression anymore. It's something else, idk. If your beliefs are defined entirely in opposition to Belief System X, then your beliefs are 100% defined by Belief System X. -Why?- This is the question that I think Nagle is already starting to circle. She's laying out *how* all this happened, and in a couple of her chapter conclusions she's been approaching the question of *why* it was the alt-right that grew like a tumor in the internet, and not something else. In a recent addition to the Alt-Right Playlist series (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF98ii6r_gU) the core idea is this: "There’s a floor to how simple the truth can be and still be the truth. Falsehoods don’t have that. There is no limit on how simple an idea can be when it doesn’t have to conform to reality." This is the reason falsehoods and conspiracies are often so much easier to spread than the truth: they're more fun! they're easier, and simpler, because they can be because you've freed yourself from the responsibility of being truthful. Although this video is mostly talking about information and reality, I think the idea can apply to morality too. It's easier to spread nihilism and 'transgression' and antisociality and 'fuck these guys' than it is to spread some specific prosocial moral system (at least in the context of the internet), because the nihilism is simpler! You look at the complexity of the world and how profoundly unjust so much of it is and the complexity of figuring out how to help people and the world, and nihilism simplifies it all into meaninglessness. So of course the ideology that became cancerous at the break into act 2 of the social internet was nihilistic and reactionary and hateful. That's what spreads best. I'm not 100% sure I've made sense with this but we ball. I think I haven't been taking this book as seriously as I should. I've been getting hung up on feeling rubbed the wrong way by the pace and tone of her approach, and also on some of the VERY clunky sentence structure (I know I said it wasn't bothering me last week but jesus christ). There were several individual sentences that I spent upwards of five minutes trying to parse. Like "The French New Right's Gramscian aim, which the alt-right today echoes, was to break with the view that defeat of radical elites or vanguards would enable the restoration of a popular traditional order and instead took stock of how profoundly the 60s had changed the general population and become hegemonic." what the fuck. Please use more punctuation, please editor move some clauses around, my god. BUT my point is I've been letting that stuff take Nagle less seriously than she deserves. Reading y'all's responses made me realize I was getting stuck in some cynicism and not really letting myself be affected by what she's talking about. So I'm recalibrating a bit. yea bye

Ricardo Aguilera

just replying to chapter2 so that I'm not as late as last time

Ricardo Aguilera

This chapter was very interesting. It's helpful to lay bare that transgression-for-transgression's-sake (hereafter gress4grake) has political draw _and_ that there's a historical tradition of gress4grake. Like, some people really do seem to just want to get a rise out of others, even at no real benefit to themself. A lot of my thinking leans away from misanthropy, so I think I'd still want to say that people who hurt people for fun aren't _really_ having fun; they're punishing themselves in some way and are in some way hurt or self-deceived. But regardless of whether we rationalize the behavior as I'm doing, the practical state of affairs is that a bunch of people just _are_ drawn to gress4grake. One example she doesn't mention is Dali — he was a fascist, just to get a rise out of others, _at the time when fascism was taking over Europe_. I quite strongly agree that "anti-moral transgression has always been a bargain with the devil, because the case for equality is essentially a moral one", but I think there's a couple qualifications. For instance, say it's the 60s and someone is transgressive in their support of gay rights. If they are doing it just to get a rise out of the older generation, that seems closer to just anti-moral transgression of the sort that is empty enough to be at other times filled in by bigotry. But they could be doing it out of a more fleshed out conviction that the "morals" condemning gayness have no ground to stand on, and that an alternative, more plausible moral system grounds a defense of gay rights. I don't think unsophisticated relativisms can help the left, because the left has a moral case for its positions, and a too-simple relativism undermines the kinds of values that support tolerance, cooperation, empathy, and so on. But, well, if you get too dogmatic with your absolutism, you start to miss genuine alternative possibilities that could be equally good or better. (e.g. if you become so confident in every specific moral position you have that nobody can shift your mind towards progress). But yeah, I don't know, maybe I'm undervaluing transgression and pretending ethical progress works in a way in which it does not. Even if people fighting for gay rights in the 60s didn't have an explicit moral framework to grounding their cause, they were still obviously fighting the good fight.

margaret (formerly Samson)

So I read through Ch 2 last week, so this week’s reading was mainly chapter 3 with a bit of a skim listen to chapter 2 to get my bearings. For me, the shock has worn off a bit, and i’m not having as many thoughts. (I guess Yessa got most of them this week though haha) And then the thoughts i did have were basically already covered (and then beyond) in the comments so far. Humbling, but I’d rather feel slow amongst this group than fast among another :) (Also, listening to the audiobook definitely helps with the wind drag.) Regarding Transgression: CJ - your articulation of being transgressive vs Valuing Transgression is just so excellent. I was thinking of my own adventures in Clothing and Behavior, and juxtaposing with the trolling noted in chapter 2, and thinking “eew, do i really have this in common with the trolls?” but i think it’s exactly about the values. For me, I value my physical body’s comfort with a bit of artistic expression tossed in. I’m not valuing the “i get to wear whatever i want, fuck all them NPCs” that i suppose i could if i really went off the deep end. (Also, “don’t look if ugly” makes me think of Phillipians 4:8, i wonder if that was in your mind too.) “The culture of transgression they have produced liberates their conscience from having to take seriously the potential human cost of breaking the taboo against racial politics that has held since WWII.” (Pg. 38) This was what called it out to me, even if i couldn’t articulate it at the time. This sentence told me that the balance of valuing humanity vs personal freedom was shaking. “Don’t tell me what to do” vs “We Live In A Society”. When the value shifted to Transgression itself, it displaced a previous value, on which a lot of our social architecture had been resting. We used to assume that others would at least somewhat respect our humanity, and we built systems on that assumption. That assumption is no longer a secure foundation (or at least it doesn’t feel secure). And now, we experience the earthquake. Regarding Tradwives: In Ch 3, where Nagle is describing some random Alt-Right personality, she says “he went on to make his name on the right through his anti-feminist arguments that life in the modern workplace had made women miserable” (pg 46) A few weeks (?) ago i was getting a lot of youtube (etc) about Tradwives, who (stereotypically) say “i just want to be at home and have the man work and i stay home to raise children and make bread.” Obviously there are concerns to be had about the kind of values that these women are pushing for (patriarchy, mostly), but mostly i feel kinda bored by the concept. It reminds me of the Quiverfull kind of cult, which haunted me after i was first married (young christian wife, of course i was aware of conflicting arguments about whether i should be on birth control or not). It didn’t take long for me to move past the Quiverfull thing, but i kind of figured “well, ok, i guess maybe some people just want that, and i guess they can do it if they feel like it.” I had not realized that my conclusion was Choice Feminism, and that it is also kind of a problem. Choice Feminism makes it all about whether a woman gets to choose. But focusing on whether a woman makes the choices is besides the point - our systems should be set up in such a way that women HAVE good choices to make, and are free from a floor tilted in the direction of domestic service. So the backlash and commentary about the tradwives is mostly “this is a bad choice”, but there is something else sprinkled in there too. Like, the tradwives might actually be looking, rationally, at a working system where they would be exploited as workers, and thinking “you know what actually, i don’t want that.” the Alt-Right guy says that the workplace makes women miserable. Have you EVER considered, Mr. Alt-Right, that the modern workplace made women miserable… because it makes humans miserable…. Because it’s maybe not how we should be living? (assuming they were actually miserable, of course. I don’t totally buy that, but i’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.) The Tradwives seem to be taking their power to do what they want, their ability to exercise their autonomy, and using that power for their own personal expression. I think this is parallel to the Alt Right Trolls, who are also using their autonomy for personal expression. They’re both selfish, both libertarian. But the tradwives are reacting to something toxic in the System. It’s a counterproductive reaction, but still. Are the Trolls also reacting to a toxic system? Perhaps they’re lonely, disenfranchised, hopeless. Maybe they spent too long being told that they don’t matter, that they don’t have power, that their speech means nothing to anyone. Perhaps that’s part of why they’re spewing this out on the rest of us. I guess the question is, what might be a solution here? I’m finding myself thinking compassionately about the trolls. I don’t want to, i don’t want mercy for them, but it’s not justice if it’s just unthrottled vengeance. They probably are actual people, who on some level want connection and to eat a good fruit and to be able to hang out around a fire with people who love them, and to be able to say words and have others truly listen. They’re probably frightened too, at a changing and unstable world that seems ready to fall apart any year now. Treating them like they’re all violent cyberbullies and nothing else isn’t particularly helpful in fixing things upstream. I do want them to be held accountable for their actions, but i don’t want that at the expense of recognizing their humanity as well. They aren’t alien bots, they’re our distant cousins, our brothers, our estranged family. We live in a society, and it includes them - i don’t want to keep them in mind, and yet i can’t help but come to the conclusion that we must.

BrEaNs

I reacted to the intro/chapter 1 with a lot more concern than I expected. I don't remember anything over the line that was said (minus Nagle's flagrant anti-Gamer prejudice /s), but a.) I've been observing these topics since I lived through them, b.) everything is presented very quickly without citation, so it's hard to determine if these are more so off-the-cuff opinions than insight, and c.) there were glimpses of "both sides"-ing that seemed to foretell troubled times later in the book. Thankfully, chapter 2/3 felt a lot better for me. The analysis of transgression felt more fresh and concrete to me. --- Metaphysics of Quality and Transgression --- Probably because I spent some time in the Lila threads, the Metaphysics of Quality connections jumped out to me more this time (@Chandler Sterling also made similar connections in the first Nagle thread). In the Part IV thread, CJ linked to a paper by Pirsig titled "Subjects, Objects, Data and Value" which jogged my memory on Pirsig's social and intellectual qualities. Most notably, how Pirsig portrays intellectual quality as just challenges to problematic social orders. "Intellectual values of truth and freedom of opinion often oppose social patterns of government." (Pirsig quote) While free speech has historically been a left wing cause, in modern times its hard to not hear right wing people whining about cancel culture when reading that Pirsig quote. The alt-right/lite style of transgression that has bled so thoroughly into the mainstream wears the skin of intellectual quality and poisons the well. When I see whining about cancel culture, I feel a certain realness to it -- a certain dynamic quality -- that is lazily justified under the banner of free speech. There never is any meat to their desires -- no crystalizability into a static quality. (See Daily Show street interviews that dismantle quickly their arguments). But the dynamic quality is powerful nonetheless. To borrow a phrase from Naomi Klein's Doppleganger, people politically different than us often "get the facts wrong but the feeling right." I, at some level, feel the pain of Qanon-ed parents whose kids no longer speak to them and who feel like their speech has been unjustly punished. I don't think they are right but I can somewhat imagine their inner frustration -- that dynamic, human spark within people I would otherwise wish to discount completely. It feels like the intensity of their feelings, and perhaps of all our feelings, has becoming deafeningly loud in modern politics. This sucks because this form of dynamic quality can only consume, not crystalize into anything good. To borrow more from Naomi Klein, the right often "pipiks" sound debates and ideas -- that is, they render them as absurd such that it's hard to engage with them. Freedom of speech is an important cause that should stay important to the left, but alt-right/lite co-optation makes any mention of free speech kinda mucky and gross, encouraging retreat. And so, the foundations for solid, consistent thought are continuously undermined. I guess the position I've arrived at is similar to something Nagle said: "As Lasch understood, for progressive politics anti-moral transgression has always been a bargain with the devil, because the case for equality is essentially a moral one." (p. 37) Perhaps we need something to crystalize. I don't know what that means, but obviously the dynamic quality behind transgression can't yield fruit in and of itself.

Evelyn G

The Medium is so important. Nihilists are not good novelists, philosophers, friends, protagonists, revolutionaries, cultural symbols, artists or just people, they are however really fucking good at shitposting. On the internet, where irony is as much a language as English is, a nihilist can finally have a voice and they are damned convincing. It seems the common Gen-Z antidote is sincerity disguised as absurdism but it's still inherently dissociative. Attention, quality and transcendence will endure. This is good: Killing the internet helps, reading helps, creating art helps.

Macy Allen

Chapter 2 goes into a lot more detail about some of the concepts introduced earlier regarding the political right's fascination with upsetting others. There seems to be a very common trend of right and left leaning political ideologies interpreting specific language in radically differing ways, and especially of the right co-opting language utilized by the left and bastardizing it until its use is almost unrecognizable. The concept of transgression is one of these concepts which is interpreted in extremely polarized ways. The chapter mentions Bell Hooks and multiple other left leaning figures utilizing the concept of transgression, but historically these uses were directly in opposition of institutions and power. It is ironic, in a way that would be funny if it weren't so sickening, that the chan right, and later the mainstream right, now utilizes transgression in a way which serves to uphold current institutions and power structures. It is especially fascinating that many on the political right (although liberals are also certainly prey for this trap) have morphed politics into such a "red team vs blue team" match that they are unable to recognize that both major parties in the US essilentially hold up a capitalist power structure which benefits from racism, homophobia, etc. Although they hold these up in different ways, they both serve the same basic function at their core. In their efforts to "own the libs" and offend as many people as possible, they end up propping up these same capitalist systems which maintain their power regardless of which party holds office. To wit, they are so fixated on the facade that they strengthen the underlying foundation. Much like many other terms (woke, virtue signaling, etc.) in coming to mainstream popularity with the right, terminology which in other circles is utilized to challenge power is stolen by those very systems. Chapter 3 touches a little more directly on mainstream political pundits rather than the behavior of websites, although it does discuss breitbart and other political publications and websites. I appreciate that in this chapter, Nagle touches a little more directly on some of the thoughts I discussed regarding chapter 2: namely, the tendency of liberals to disavow criticisms of capitalism and harder leftist economics just as strongly, if not more so, than conservatives. The chapter traces a more defined route from fringe ideology to the mainstream trumpism of today. I find it fascinating to read how Ben Shapiro, who is still to this day a major player in conservative punditry, was pushed out of breitbart when its anti-Semitism became to hardcore for him to handle. It illustrates the level to which the Overton window (a concept finally directly mentioned in this very chapter) has shifted so much that people who would be Republicans in past eras are now not extreme enough for the party. Moderate views are spat on just as much as liberal views, and it seems that the trump right is opposed to any political views more moderate than what basically amounts to blatant fascism. The book is picking up steam, which I am glad to see. I'm more bought in now than I was after reading the initial chapters, and I'm interested to see where the end point of this is. That interest in the end point is probably indicative of my biggest gripe with the book so far, which is that the structure of the book hasn't really made clear what it is attempting to say. It is reading right now as more of an anecdotal retelling of an alt-right history, without appearing to have a broader underlying message. Hopefully, the remaining chapters clarify this and have something to glean outside of "hey, this is a thing that happened. Isn't that weird?"

Shy Anne

A little late because I needed to be present physically and emotionally for a family member in the hospital but had a lot of time to think ahhhh. I think I’m overall pretty pro-transgression as a rhetorical strategy or artistic expression because, as the poets say, “I’m a bad bitch and I got bad anxiety, bitches call me rude cause I ain’t lettin’ them try me.” (Megan the Stallion, Anxiety) Like I’m autistic, I’ve had issues figuring out what is appropriate in different contexts and also issues giving a shit because sometimes polite, well-mannered behavior is bullshit! Sometimes it’s appropriate to transgress against norms because the norms are unjust! Lizzie’s in a box! Hip-hip-hooray! At the same time, I think transgression should always be a means, not an end in itself, like transgressive comedy to make a point? Perhaps, what’s your point? Like bringing it back to pragmatism: what are your goals? If your goals are good, is this the best way to go about achieving them? This era of internet algorithms adds a motivation to be transgressive: it’s very engaging! Hank Green describes two types on online content: fan content and hater content. Hater content is easy, you don’t have to be correct or nuanced, you don’t have to hold yourself accountable, as the poets say “all you needs an opinion and the rizz” (CJ the X, Vultures). “But just because it’s harder doesn’t mean it’s not actually better to do the other thing; where you make things that people love, and you create strong foundations, and build upon them until you take over the whole damn world, which is what Taylor has done.” Because oh yeah, this was in a 4 minute vlogbrothers called “I keep thinking about Taylor swift” And he talks about how making stuff that makes people feel positive emotions, rather than negative ones, isn’t about only talking about the happy stuff, “like every Taylor swift song isn’t happy. You can talk about how messed up the world is but not be sort of driving people toward hopelessness because that’s the easiest way to control them.” And I think that’s one of the things I get nervous about when like, someone’s whole existence on the internet is about inciting anger and despair, like that is not a very good sign, I too am wary of the scumbag left. In a different vlogbrothers video, “on the seductiveness of despair” John green makes an argument I find compelling: “But as far as I see it there are two big problems with this dead-souled hopelessness; first it’s not helpful, and second it’s not true, or at least it’s not the whole truth.” And goes an to talk about how simple answers are never really enough in a complex world, mere despair, mere optimism, mere anger, mere joy, none of them are enough on their own. “Destruction is often fast, loud, and dramatic; whereas reparitive work tends to be slow, and quiet, and unspectacular.” And like, I think transgression is better at being fast, loud, and dramatic; I’m not sure it’s a tool suited for reparative work. Mostly. I had a transcendent religious experience recently shouting “every region every city the whole damn world stay say saying ’FUCK THE GIRLS!’ Suck my dick, clit, tits, I’m yelling’ 666” in an arena of thousands, where I knew no one personally because none of my friends fuck with Doja cat anymore. Was the degree to which that particular song moved me at all related to being in a sorority for 4 years? Certainly! I’ve experienced some “they ain’t with me then they with me” and like the experience of buying a single ticket for an artist that I would have seen summer 2020 with someone who’s friendship I lost in a Snapchat groupchat argument, like it was mad cathartic, I did feel like a healed something inside of me that had been off for a long time. I think Doja leans into transgression pretty heavily, do I think that’s always good? Idk, but Scarlet as an album speaks to me a lot more than any of her previous work, I think because it doesn’t feel like bullshit. “I know I’ve been the root of the cause, I know I’ve had a temper before, but still y’all don’t quit.” Hits different after taking responsibility for how you’ve treated your loved ones while suffering with mental health conditions that impact emotional regulation, and like idk, I have a hard time being mad at her for all the trolling. Like, I’m on the side of art and I don’t think telling the artist to chill out and be less transgressive online is something I’m entitled to OR good for art. Dropping the links for the vlogbrothers videos I referred too, if ever you want evidence that integrity counts for something online, I think they’re good examples. https://youtu.be/5SpsnjF1VFg?si=xWvEYIr21TSVb2EY https://youtu.be/hIbqS6XoNiE?si=3oYMlkMIL4hWvnw0 Don’t have a lot to say that other people haven’t said better on the political stuff, other than that the only content of value ben Shapiro has made was the undramatic reading of WAP, “bucket and a mop for this wet ass p-word” is art I can separate from the artist idgaf

Izzy

I am a couple days late to the party on this one!!!! I'm not sure if it is considered ok for me to turn in my homework late or not but!!! I'm happy to be here either way!!! n_n I've never done one of these book clubs before so I might not get everything 100% but when I read chapter 2 my mind was kinda exploding with thoughts. The big theme of the chapter was transgression, but something that I felt the need to think about more deeply is WHY people (4channers and also just humans in general) feel the need to transgress? 4chan specifically values breaking norms and taboos for its own sake but I kept thinking about what might draw an individual person to that ideology and what they get out of it. The book explores the culture as kind of a bigger-picture societal reaction to blue haired SJWs making everything gay and woke but I think it's deeper than that. Transgression definitely makes people feel powerful and gives them a sense of control, which I think is part of it. A lot of people feel powerless in their lives for whatever reason, so it's fun for them to indulge in the fantasy that they're some kind of edgy hackerman who's breaking through society's boundaries. There's also this big part of 4chan's culture that revolves around being ironic and detached and not giving a shit about anything, which I think is very important because it makes them feel like they're protected from getting hurt. After all you can't feel sad about something if you never cared, and you can't feel rejection if it was just a joke, right? It makes them feel strong and shielded from pain, which is desirable for them because they've felt pain and hurt in their lives and they want to convince themselves that they're emotionally invincible. That kinda relates to my next thought, which is: Channers tend to front like they don't care about anything and pride themselves on crossing every line they come across, but I think it's really important to look at WHICH lines they cross. Because that will tell you what they ACTUALLY want and care about. To give an example, why did 4chan feel the need to make Chelsea King's death into their trolling grounds? It might have been because these are people who don't feel seen or valued in their lives, so they didn't like that a young girl was being seen and mourned on a large scale. Also they probably did it to feel like they had power over a girl when so many of them are sexually frustrated and angry at women, which feeds heavily into their misogyny. These are just speculations obviously, but I think they might help give us a clue as to why channers point their desire to transgress at things like this, and not, like, protesting for women's rights or something. Something that I couldn't stop paying attention to was the sort of "manifesto" (I'm not sure what else to call it) by the channer describing what /b/ means to him. I think this part is really important because not only is it from a channer's own viewpoint describing what they feel about the ideological space they inhabit, it's describing which societal lines this particular person values crossing. For the sake of space I won't copypaste the whole quote here, but it gives a LOT of information I think. 17 out of 24 of the lines in the quote are the writer themself on breaking sexual various taboos, which is obviously telling. But I think the bigger and more important running theme here is the idea of doing stuff that's considered taboo, because they want the power to act on their desires, which they feel like they don't have. They use the value of "transgression" to make it seem like these things are not just okay, but morally righteous. Fantasizing about sexual assault is the big recurring example of this for them, but another example in the manifesto would be "/b/ is the guy who tells the cripple ahead of him in line to hurry up." The most important ones I think are these. "/b/ is the voice in your head that tells you that it doesn’t matter if she’s drunk." "/b/ is the uncle who has touched you several times." These very obviously are the writer fantasizing about committing horrible acts, and it makes me wonder: What makes a person start having these kinds of wants? I think for someone like this, it comes basically down to wanting power. They may have felt powerless or mistreated in their own lives and they want control- the power to take whatever they want and hurt other people the way they feel like they have been hurt. The problem is that they know these are shitty desires to have, so they have to justify it in their minds by equating it with a value they think is Good and Honorable: transgression. That's how you get American Psycho fanboys who wish they were Patrick Bateman- a figure like Patrick has the power to take out his every dark urge on the people around him, and they wish they had that kind of power, but he's obviously evil, so they have to justify it by saying he's an edgy anti-hero cutting through to the core of what society refuses to ackowledge. Or whatever. I hope it doesn't sound too much like I'm sympathizing or showing too much compassion to these terrible internet men. I just wanted to examine why they do the things that they do, which I think is important, because human beings always have motivations for their actions even when their actions are incredibly shitty. I obviously haven't ever been on 4chan before, but I know what it's like to feel isolated and powerless, so I know that sometimes it drives a person down some very dark roads. WHEW I hope that was not too long of an essay, I spent a long time on it!!! One thing I'll say to cap this off is that I am NOT VERY BRIGHT. I am still learning about philosophy and this kind of stuff, and I am trying to get better at peeling apart the layers of things and thinking about them more deeply. Everyone is so smart and well-spoken here and has such interesting things to say! I read the things other people are writing and it all feels very beyond me sometimes! But!!! I wanted to try offering my thoughts anyways just to see if I could get at anything valuable, and I did my best to make it coherent and not just reiterate things that have already been said. I am happy to be taking part in this now!!! n_n

valentin

Transgression, Punk & the New Counterculture: Reading chapter 2 made me a little bit upset. Upset about how transgression as a political tool can be misused and level against the powerless instead of those with power. I think Punk is a very intruguing cultural movement for how ingrained it was in youth culture at the time. It was probably a more complicated and less unified than it seems looking back, but I really believe punk is a special movement, melding music, fashion and revolutionary thought to push culture forward. It was aesthetically powerful!Transgression was a tool often used by the punk scene. Shocking lyrics, even more shocking clothes and even physical violence were all part of their repetoire of tools. But even though punk is a mostly leftist movement, its culture of transgression allows for flirtations with far right ideas, since it is often hard to tell if the transgression is just meant to shock or some kind of dogwhistle. “In 1976, in the company of the Sex Pistols, Siouxse Sioux was beaten up for wearing her swastika armband. Her intention was clearly to shock and offend, but few would argue that it was an earnest declaration of allegiance to Nazism.” p. 29 And that is not to say that punk was a monolith of left leaning people. In fact there are even subcultures of punk that lean far right. “Joy Division, whose singer Ian Curtis was on the political right, named themselves after the Freudenabteilung, the name of the German camp brothels in WWII.” p.29 My father was a punk in post WWII Germany and there were certain groups of skinheads who where Nazi sympathizers. Back then it made a huge difference wether you wore your DrMartens with white or with red laces, either one could get you beat up if you ran into the wrong people. I was genuinenly shocked by the accounts of facist behavior on the internet, specifically in America. Listen, I’m from Austria, where Hitler came from. We were part of Germany during WWII, there is was concentration camp only a few hours from where I currently live. My country has a very different history with facism than America so I get why americans might be a little more decensitized to the Holocaust. I can rationally understand that and I have understanding for it. But reading the words “Hail Trump, hail our people, hail victory!” (p.52) made me sick to my stomach with a feeling of.. doom? It just felt really scary. Someone can say this on stage and get a mostly positive response… idk how to feel about that. So it seems that Transgression has mostly faded as a tool for the progressive left and become something heavily used by the alt-right, mostly for shock value and maybe against some kind of faux-establishment like the idea of political correctness or censorship. This Milo dude claims that the alt-right is the “new punk.” But I profoundly disagree. There is nothing countercultural about being transgressive on the internet. The internet culture IS transgression and outrage. But what is the new counterculture? Counterculture today is long form discussion. It is book clubs like this. It is fragmented websites instead of big social media sites. Counterculture is building community on and outside of the internet. It is networks of people distributing art independently. It is engaging in conversation with those you disagree with. And it is places like this. Counterculture today is no longer transgressive. Counterculture today is gentle. Kill the Internet. https://imgur.com/ilLUA52

Kylie

Rabbit trail comment - I wish Nagle went further into her research for the 4chan discussion. When her topic covering gamergate clashed significantly from what I’d heard and seen in the gaming world (my “gaming” involvement mostly being watching Jacksepticeye, human cinnamon roll lol), I went into an internet hole that had me writing my own internal essay about what gamergate was even about. Dan Olsen/Folding Ideas had the best short video on the topic, and the community itself is fascinating and has a lot of conflicting personalities with anti-establishment sentiments and communities morphing into spaces for actual hate groups. The gamergate group undoubtedly benefited from the harassment, while still their forums like KIA had strict rules against doxxing / harassment etc. The more liberal minded folks who were involved (yes it wasn’t just right wing) made the issue about shoddy gaming journalism, the trigger being a Gaming is Dead media campaign that was triggered by a group of linked journalists who listened to the misogynistic drama surrounding a tiny game that most of the gaming community was unaware of. The movement’s claim is that they pushed back against collusion by journalists with the companies that create the games and each other, and tokenism. Dipping my toe in the only currently active forum, the posts are about game conglomerates trying to purchase the publications that review their games. But the movement undeniably benefitted from harassment and allowed hate groups to leverage their movement for hate speech. They maintained “plausible deniability.” The journalism piece of the movement itself deserves pushback. They were complaining about tokenism bc the group previously marketed to by video game studios (mostly straight/white/male) saw the huge influx of POC/female/nb/gay/lesbian/trans main characters who were added out of joy and excitement that character creators could do that now (creators tend to be more 🪼colorful🌸 than the gamers themselves lol), and felt preached at, even pushed out. When they complained about it, they were met with some suspicion and condescension (bc really?), and channelled this into anger. Perhaps that is the biggest flaw and feature of 4chan, the anonymity. It ensures everyone is welcome and has an equal voice, but diversity is also shut out as everyone is assumed to be “default” (see: cis male). In fact the forum revels in the anonymity, punishing people who reference their gender/race/sexuality as an identifier. The gamers as a whole had a targeted media campaign launched against them and used it to push “maintaining the status quo,” ie lack of visible diversity, in their spaces. The ethics of how responsible the group should have been to try and stem the tide of harassers is difficult to litigate when there’s not an organization or leadership that you can point to as responsible for condemning such things. It was banned in the TOS of forums and by anonymous mods, but when they were benefiting from it, it gives me major side eye about how much they really condemned it. If you want to look at the gamergate wikipedia article it’s truly crazy - the sources listed at the bottom are 95% opinion piece editorials, which is why I was expecting more from Nagle. The horrendous harassment is horrific, and learning about it is horrific, but I don’t think Nagle really examined the psychology and reasoning behind the mob (those who did it, those who didn’t, and those who knew what was going on but didn’t try and stop it), and if there’s any mention of the journalism ethics, the plausible missteps by journalists that triggered the event, it’s treated as if this is the outlier and not the manifesto of the whole movement who felt “left behind” by the gaming industry even though they very much weren’t. I don’t think admitting that calling ALL gamers misogynistic in a coordinated publication effort between platforms was wrong, invalidates the ability to criticize and examine the horrendous response. There are still plenty self-identified ‘liberal’ gamergaters who use this plausible deniability as a smoke screen. On an individual level, sure i’ve got no idea if they spoke out against harassment online, but they were openly part of a movement that didn’t do enough speaking out. I think the discussion is an interesting one, even more so when it comes to defining the movement. By its “alt right” effect vs by the self-identification of most of the group. misogyny was the product of gamergate, and it’s what it’s remembered for. I honestly couldn’t find if their “journalism” goals were successful or not, but the harassment is what they’ll be forever remembered for. But they also refuse to take accountability or admit fault when no one engages in that seemingly irrelevant core issue gamergate was built around. It just seemed like this section didn’t properly capture this moment on the internet. I’m wondering if she’s going to touch on the incel to trans pipeline that’s come out of 4chan? Maybe upon a reread I’ll feel different lol. Just didn’t want all that time I spent researching to amount to nothing 🤷‍♀️ Loving the discussion so far!

Adison

I’m the latest to the party!! No one can beat me!! Transgression “The surreal became a pre-rational creative expression. The throwing off of the id that characterized this transgressive countercultural traditional also characterized sites like 4chan, and its culture of trolling and taboo-breaking anti-moral humor, which is often described as insane or unhinged to baffled outsiders. This view of psychopathy and rejection of imposed morality runs through the ethos and aesthetic of the rightist trolling culture.“ I’ve long been exhausted by the conservative tradition of transgression, and I found it interesting to explore how this ideology of rejection was created. Because that what it is right? An ideology centered on the rejection of another. An ideology of “owning the libs.” I think that’s I find dissatisfying about this kind of transgression is that it doesn’t stand for anything. Only against. To use a Pirsigism, it’s very static, and not in the way that breeds discipline or pursues order, but in a way that stifles the dynamic. “The psychopath, like the artist, privileges id over superego and desire over moral constraints I find the tension between the dynamic creativity and the static ideology of trolls endlessly interesting. As a movement, these types of trolls are capable of creating and organizing on a truly horrifying scale, but they never seem to use it to create anything … real? Like don’t get me wrong, Pepe the Frog is real, and the adoption of fascist ideologies is definitely real, but again it doesn’t feel like they chose these ideas out of actual interest. Maybe a morbid curiosity, or a desire to engage with the taboo, but again that’s just transgression. Instead, it seems to be centered on the desire to destroy. The death instinct roars its head once again. Gramsicans “Conservatism is going to be dead in my lifetime and the question is, who is going to define the right after that? I want to do that.’” - Richard Spencer This is the first chapter that has left me with a horrifying sense of dread. I think there’s something about all of the harassment and horrible internet darkness that I can compartmentalize and deal with, but to look at the right-wing media apparatus in the face is just… horrible. I loathe acknowledging the right’s ability to organize. The death instinct seems to motivate them in a nightmarish way. And I can’t help but wonder if that’s because it is easier to rally around an ideology of destruction than one of hope. Hope is a fickle creature, constantly changing shape and running into the distance. To chase her, to attempt to creature something entirely new, is a difficult project. I believe that’s it's necessary and possible, but it is really easy to feel hopeless. I almost feel a sort of envy towards conservatism. There must be something comforting, something motivating, when you have a clear vision of what things should be. They don’t need hope. They only need to prevent it.

Lou Corben

Catching upppppp….. - It annoys me how she keeps making grand statements about things without giving examples or evidence, e.g. “The cult of the moral transgressor as a heroic individual is rooting in Romanticism.” …like OK maybe that’s true but are you not going to tell me who you’re talking about? - Maybe I hold a romanticised view of 60s counterculture but it doesn’t seem to me that it was “anti-moral”, but that its morals were other than those of society at large. It was, imperfectly and to varying degrees of success, anti-racist, anti-war, anti-misogyny. Perhaps sometimes people in the 60s pushed the boundaries of “good taste” but I don’t think that’s the same thing as to say they didn’t have a moral goal in mind. Martin Luther King was a countercultural figure. Was he anti-moral? - /b/ is a loser. It’s as though they almost take pride in it, because how else are they gonna deal with it? I think it’s the wallowing in self-pity part that I find so hard to empathise with. - On Bataille: I read about half of ‘The Story of the Eye’ and honestly found it pretty boring so it put it down. Like woah you’re so edgy congratulations - pretty much the same feeling I get when I unfortunately stumble across a lot of edgy humour online. But maybe I’m just desensitised to pornography. I have to say, as much as I am concerned about online bubbles, I am glad that on the whole the tiktok algorithm mostly keeps me away from the most toxic parts, I really don’t think it would do my mental health any good if I wasn’t able to tell it “no misogyny please” and have it never serve me with it. Reading this has had me thinking “I’m glad this stuff has died down a bit” but maybe I’m just not seeing it and it’s worse than I think it is… it probably is… :/ - “‘The Manson murders’, Reynolds and Press agued, ‘were the logical culmination of throwing off the shackles of conscience and consciousness, the grim flowering of the id’s voodoo energies’. Really? It’s not just that he was a white supremacist predator? Like, those existed well before the 60s. Yes, he used the trappings of “free love” to radicalise and gain followers (who were often children btw) but when have predators not manipulated people? To say the id took over so bad stuff happens makes it sound as though nothing bad happened before the 60s, back when everyone was more rational, which is obviously nonsense. Also I just have to say that I *hate* Once Upon A Time In Hollywood, and Tarantino’s other works of attempted historical revisionism through vigilante violence. It solves nothing except to fuel righteous anger. It feels as useful as Biden telling Trump to “shut the hell up, man” - On de Sade: one of my favourite fiction writers is Angela Carter who wrote one non-fiction book, claiming de Sade as a proto-feminist. “Sade's work concerns the nature of sexual freedom and is of particular significance to women because of his refusal to see female sexuality in relation to its reproductive function” It’s very tongue-in-cheek like a lot of her writing and she explicitly says something along the lines of “I don’t think this is really what he set out to do,” but it had a big influence on me at 18, and it’s therefore inaccurate to generalise or imply that 60s/70s feminists were anti-porn or anti-transgression. As in most things, Carter ultimately hopes for balance between the id and the superego (to put it in Freudian terms). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sadeian_Woman_and_the_Ideology_of_Pornography I ought to read Dworkin’s response though. - “anti-Semite public figure David Duke” … are you not going to mention that he was the leader of the KKK? He’s just a public figure? …ok… That’s all I have to say on chapter 3 lol OK ttfn x

annie liz

Transgression I am… not transgressive in the slightest. There are parts of me that want and have always wanted to grasp at the strings of transgression and counterculturalism; to have the nerve to punch the status quo until one of us bleeds. I think that’s a very human trait. but at my core and at the basis of my upbringing is the far more normie-core truth, which is that I am a goody-two-shoes-pleasure-to-have-in-class and always have been. Like, I would take my headphones out of my ears when I was 12 when I knew a song had a swear word in it. This has both served me and harmed me for reasons exemplified in the chapter, describing “good guys” and “””bad guys””” wielding transgression as a weapon for passionate ideological goals. My Review: It’s scary! This shit is terrifying!!! Adison mentioned how they envy the right’s ability to organize under destruction and I found that incredibly poignant. The negative unity of Death instinct absorption. Transgression seems to be used as a club by the right, with the aim of warping and flattening the target down as much as possible. Leftists, on the other hand, historically tend to *try* to use transgression as a shredder, tearing the present status into puzzle pieces in the hope of being able to put them back together differently to make something better. It’s a wobbly metaphor, but the latter sounds much more meticulous and time consuming. Maybe that’s why it’s so much harder to actually do.   “But when transgression itself is taken as its own value, we confront the pure potential of chaos without direction, without limitation. It can dynamically enhance the badassery of bigotry precisely as well as it can enhance the badassery of a moral cause.” buzzing loudly CJ good summary good synthesis thank you helpful useful yes.   Others have mentioned our darling problem child Lila in the comments, and I agree; going further, I think Nagle’s analysis in Ch2 is helping me understand the connections between conservative bootstrappers and their perception of ZMM/Lila/MoQ as being an ally and colleague to their ideologies. The way that the alt-right attached to transgression and higher levels of morality, trolling as satirical performance art, TRANSCENDING the accepted standards of plebs and normies BELOW them, appearing “insane or unhinged to baffled outsiders” (p. 32) in self-justified acts of Schrodinger’s Douchebaggery.. it’s a twisted logic but it starts lining up.   (side note: Baudelaire’s “oasis of horror in a desert of boredom” took my breath away. Feels like a dreamy Vegas billboard for the Terrifying Now. and yet people have always felt this way. horrifyingly comforting.) I think these history chapters are helping me solidify the hazy feeling of So Much-ness I feel every time I try to understand the dark and dusty corners of online secret gardens, and the subsequent gnarled and warped vines they grew that choked out everything else. Nagle is a hefty source-dumper, going from 19th-century Parisian avant-garde to Pepe to Fight Club in a paragraph. The web she weaves is interesting, and while I’m grateful for the breadth of concepts she uses to connect it all, I’m equally grateful for the comments here at KTI Inc. with some different contexts to her statements coming in with the “okay AND…” I love yall lmao  I struggle with writing for this book because I feel like I just want to yell and hit and scream about every bit of it, yet it’s also weirdly quiet as I simply sit and remember each moment. I recognize everything Nagle brings up, but I also wasn’t quite Connected to the era due to sheltering and my own personality. That separation makes me feel.. awkward? Wrong word, but it feels weird trying to authoritatively comment on it. I’m glad we’re reading it and I really really appreciate reading y’all’s thoughts on it, it’s helping me a lot.

halley

I feel like the means are getting confused for the ends here. in thinking about those who are obviously or naturally transgressive I think of artists, the disabled/neurodiverse, marginalized minorities who speak up regardless, and, children. to rebel is such natural childish behavior but also a mature response to injustice. the kind described in these chapters definitely seems more the former than the latter- like when a kid learns a swear word and delights in their newfound power to upset authority with such a simple act! the difference is the purpose behind that act of transgression- is it just anger at being a powerless kid always being told what to do, or is it righteous anger directed at a cruel system with the aim of exposing and changing it in some way? these chapters reminded me a lot of The Rebel by Albert Camus, which I strongly recommend to anyone interested in a much deeper philosophical exploration of the topic! it's about as dense and rewarding as Art as Experience, chronicling rebellion throughout history; the consequences and implications of justifying revolt against god, against rulers, against tyranny... (and more but I only read a little more than half so far so I can't speak on it definitively!) (linked: pic of the table of contents to tempt you bc who doesn't love a tantalizing toc: https://imgur.com/a/YNixboa) "carnival laughter is ambivalent; it is gay, triumphant, and at the same time mocking, deriding" I was struck by the term 'carnivalesque' in relation to the theme of disability this chapter brought up. an ideal response to dealing with people who don't fit in in one way or another would be to work towards a more inclusive society but that kind of work is hard and slow and not instantly rewarding. and if you don't have a supportive community to empower you in your divergence an alternative could be to try empowering yourself individually by profiteering off that which makes you weird - joining the circus - convincing yourself and others that you like being laughed at and you're in on the joke. it's like giving yourself an offensive nickname to take the power back from would-be bullies. it seems to me to be claiming transversive identity as a shield, a cope for not fitting in. I can understand why but I don't think this is deeply effective or rewarding in the end, or at least not a scaleable solution. "it's not bullying, its satirical performance art" oooh this is such an infuriating justification of trolling! I've encountered this more in real life with people using "chill, it's just a joke" as a catch-all excuse for any and all kinds of racism, sexism, and just generally bad-taste humor. it's super frustrating to interact with extended family with this rhetorical defense because we can't have real conversations about things that matter. this shield of humiliation protects them from having to take any accountability for their morally bad or ambiguous positions and lets them bask in their own smugness for beliefs they're obviously not interested or willing to change anyway. "cernovich broke from the alt-right code 'don't punch to the right' after the footage of spencer and his followers blew up..." this 'code' struck me as potentially a key to understanding the success of the right and fractured failings of the left- maybe those on the right are more willing to let some more extremist/dangerous elements slide if it means they have a better chance of 'winning' or reaching their own goals, whereas the left ends up more fractured and critical of themselves due to always aiming for higher ideals? I don't want to make any sweeping statements yet but maybe I'll come back to this as the book goes on. I find myself reexamining a bias I hold against certain media I know little about and realizing it’s a distaste for the type of people who make up the majority of the fanbase that turns me off from even considering it. Like south park for example- I can acknowledge that it often works as a brilliant satire, but knowing that many people watching aren't picking up on that and are mostly there for the crude humor is just a big turn-off for me personally. (side note: reading the description of /b/ I kept thinking of the character of cartman) I think during the time period referenced I was one of those young women who liked bernie until the 'berniebro' fanbase phenomenon made me think twice about supporting him, at least vocally. another example is jordan peterson - I still know nothing about him besides what I've gleaned from this patreon because of the stereotype I associate with his fanbase.. maybe that's not fair but I have limited energies and I want to devote them towards beautiful things! of course there is some value to be found in the muck, in engaging with this barrage of unpleasantness through this book, if at least to refine my own thoughts and understand what I'm saying no to so that the no itself is coming from a stronger place.

george putnam

Transgression is complicated for me. I’m very contrarian in nature, but also quite passive and quick to bend to strong personalities. I think transgression is best understood as a tool that achieves a certain effect. Pursuing it as an end in itself feels corrosive. It’s a short cut to standing out without the burden of achieving excellence. (calling myself out)