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Of the Upcoming Political Talks. (Patreon)

Published:
2019-09-09 15:54:13
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

Content

Just like it says on the tin folks.  Nothing else to see here.  If you're wondering about progress, FILFy is done and off to it's first editor, Nad Destroyer.  Making Waves is halfway done, and should be sent off to it's first editor Friday.

With that out of the way, let's get back to the reason for this post.

If you have been following me for any length of time, you know that while I excel (if I say so myself) at combat scenes, I struggle with political talk.  Especially if I want both sides to come off as intelligent.  However in several of my stories, political talk is looming in the future (No Detritus, I didn't call for you, go back in your corner).    

So I wanted to ask if anyone had any opinions or ideas of what the various upcoming political issues should include.

In Magic of the Force, we have Harry stepping into the Senate for the first time.

I need specific Senators- from this era - to do the talking for the Centrists.  I have several Senators in the Peace Faction and I have discovered the names of various senators I can use for the Separatist cause, but not the Centrist faction - specifically I need someone respected and not connected to the various amounts of corruption.  Someone who can be seen as a moral individual.  

I also need help on siting specific instances of the Senate actually solving problems both within the Senate and in the Republic as a whole.  I've only found examples of them screwing up or being manipulated into mistakes.

And finally, i would really like some help on what all four factions - peace first, the GDL, the Separatists, and the Centrists.  I can argue the GDL position, I can even argue the Separatist position somewhat, but coming up with things for the peace first and the Centrist position is hard without covering what I've already said in the fic.  But I want this scene to be powerful and show how all the positions have been staked out without becoming boring, so I can't just repeat myself.

Oh, I'd also like any laws or ordinances anyone can remember/have seen/heard mentioned that might be pertinent for this debate.  I have a few, but not many.

Next, this one is a little easier in Horse For the Force: As should be obvious from the last chapter, basically the clone wars have begun.  But I will need to show the debate about the Arming Act, and the discovery of the clone army.  

So, should I use Padme as a POV for that debate? - I haven't been using her AT ALL up to this point in this story. 

Further, what should the reactions of the Jedi be to the Clones in this work?  Ranma's not going to be part of that reaction right away, so I guess the question is has he changed Yoda and the others to the point where they will see the clones as what they are: a form of slavery?  Or will they decide to use the clone army as they did in the original?

This next one is about A Third Path, and has a simple question, but not a simple answer:  What should be done about Russia?  I have been hinting at the facts that not everyone in Russia was happy with the war, but was powerless to stop it, and I have already hinted at the fact Harry wouldn't be pushing for Russia to be broken up hugely.   He wants to turn the former enemy that is Russia into an ally, somewhat like how Japan was turned into an American ally after WW2.  But if that is the case, then what should happen to Russia?  What reparations, what bits should be ceded to their enemies, what bits should break off etc.  Please help.

Since these questions are so big, please answer each in a separate post.  If you can remember to put a header up to the question you're asking that would be a major help too.  And thank you in advance for giving me your opinions on these questions.  I know politics can be boring, but it is necessary at times.

Comments

Milandaanza

About Horse of the Force PoV. If you've never used her before, I wouldn't do it now. Third person could work fine, or you could just have it done as an observer. I'm not sure seeing her thoughts should happen if its a one off. That said I trust you to write well so if you feel like it'll work, go for it.

Safetyhazart

FOr the politcal side for Horse of the Force. How about you have the JEdi discover that the Clones are slave, via a discussion amongst themself. Something along the line of one Jedi mentioning that the clones were created for combat and that it is therefore their duty to fight for the republic and that they dont get to chose if actually want to fight.

Safetyhazart

at that point the jedi could have a:. Wait a second, doesnt that sound like slavery?- moment. That way you could show their growth as an order ( or of a part of that order) without making them instantly perfect and cappable of seeing the obvious. From there you could also nicely show the fractures within the Jedi order.

vimesenthusiast

I've sort of deliberately not used her in Horse, given how I have made her an almost main character in Magic. Indeed, from now on we'll be seeing even more of her. But yeah, your comment is why I am asking at all.

vimesenthusiast

that was the question: those points were not raised in canon bar one or two fringe Jedi. I want to know if people thought that Yoda and the others, having been smacked upside the head by the chaos that is Ranma, would realize there is more to morality than simply not falling to the Dark Side.

Udodelig Urningin

Magic of the force: There are several potential senators on the Loyalist Committee: Ask Aak is a Gran who strongly supported Palpatine, but he did put a bounty on a blackmailer (could be used to show the legal side of bounty hunting?); Lexi Dio is a blue eyed blond who goes to refugee relief fundraisers, but follows the will of her people and opposed the military creation act; Ister Paddie is a noble on his world, and was described as "one of the most trusted, skilled and intelligent members of the senate" by Palpatine; and finally, you could use Bail Organna or Mon Mothma. Bail and Mon were strong supporters of Palpatine until the war had been going for years, Mon in particular is a Bureaucrat from a long line of Bureaucrats and loved centralization until she saw the wars. 2: The All Planets Relief Fund was a law that streamlined critical relief funds into a single, speedy process as opposed to petitioning the senate as a whole. It was Palpatine's pet project, so take Critical with a grain of salt. Senate Resolution BR-0371 taxed Outer and Mid-rim hyperspace routes to pay down growing republic debt. Again, this was a Palpatine pet project that began the blockade of Naboo. The Yinchorri embargo act did 'end' the Yinchor war, so that is almost positive. The Resettlement Acts were a series of measures financially supported by Hego Damask (Darth Plageus) that supported Hyperspace route exploration and the colonization of new planets (one sector helped by this was the Corporate Sector).

Udodelig Urningin

A Third Path: Break the Russian media strangle. Really, if Russia was getting trusty/cynical media from around the world and not just jingoistic government press releases it would have been much harder for the government to start the war. Personally, I would want the Finns getting their pre WW2 border, but that is just me. Possibly have the Russian occupied Japanese islands be returned to Japan. Possibly restrict their national forces but let them have an unlimited presence in the EDF (so they are still military, they can still be recalled in case of a terrestrial war, but they are deliberately and visibly out of position to attack). Another option is heavy oversight of supers, but with an entire underground network that would be hellacious to implement.

Dark

About Japanese Islands they were historically russians, just before some war WW1 or ealier, then they got to Japan and after WW2 they back to Russia. For me meybe replace all goverment (because its goverment who went to war, not the people), maybe made Russia to Empire just Like Britian or Japan.

Darth Bayes

Magic of the Force On the senate solving problems: The republic is more than seven thousand years old. That's crazy. Absolutely absurd. Seven *centuries* is extremely impressive for a civilization on Earth, and with better technology, people and information and politics move faster, making that number effectively much stronger. The Senate has held together a massive civilization with many power blocs more culturally and economically different than the north and the south in the american civil war, many of whom might even have values fundamentally opposed to others (e.g. valuing life versus valuing killing the weak). But of course it's not news when everything is working properly, so it might be hard to find examples. Also, nobody wants to write (star wars books) about the boring parts. Faction positions: (Disclaimer: not totally up-to-date with star wars politics or politics in Magic of the Force) Peace First position: -"war is really bad" repeated a thousand times in a thousand different ways. Because it's really, really true. -And it really isn't necessary--the republic has worked for thousands of years. War is the extension of politics by other means, where one group thinks that what they are getting from politics doesn't match what their military-industrial complex strength should get them. And from how the war was going, they might be right. Why didn't the separatists just play the political game? Perhaps because corruption and bigotry was working against them. The old boy's network in the core strangling out the rising forces in the mid rim, the human-centric core against the nemoidians and muuns and skakoans. That this reached the point of war meant the republic wasn't willing to bend enough to give the separatists a fair deal, and by economic size and by importance, that's probably more about preserving the core's power than it was about sentient rights or anything, even if that was used as a smokescreen. Centrists: (this may not be the centrist position, but I think it's a very reasonable position for someone to have): Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics. War isn't won by soldiers, it's won by money, absent certain other concerns like political will, over-centralization, and technological parity--which with sufficiently advanced technology, can all be manufactured with money. The appropriate thing to do is to take the most cost-effective steps possible for this war. Keep the trade flowing, hit the separatist economy, fight with propaganda, etc. Major planets aren't really in danger, what with all their planetary shields and defense fleets and such. People will die, but the number of people killed by the war might at most increase the number of people who die annually in the galaxy without war by 1%. The amount of fighting going on compared to the galactic economy as a whole makes this look more like the cold war than a world war, so win the the same way the US won that--economics. And economics is also imperative to figuring out what will happen afterwards, and to keeping up quality of life and constituent happiness, and keeping up technological development.

Darth Bayes

Horse For the Force Devil's Advocate argument: The way that the Jedi view the clones is one of the common ways house-elves are treated in fanfic: they were created to love to serve, which may or may not have been a monstrous act, but given that all they want is to serve, having them do that is moral. It's possible that some won't want to serve, and Jedi might figure that out from interacting with them personally, but I would expect that to be a tiny fraction. What will happen after the war is another important question, but standing armies aren't uncommon. There's a question of this setting precedent, but that's slipping away from a moral question towards a political one. Overall, I think it's very possible for Jedi to agree with the claim that if the Clones want to work, don't see a need for pay (if e.g. veteran clones can request better equipment), and are treated no worse than normal soldiers, it's not morally objectionable.

Darth Bayes

A Third Path I'm not up-to-date with ATP, but my biggest thing to point out would be that you (people in-universe) should *absolutely absolutely absolutely* avoid things that might create perpetual ethnic conflicts. Specifically, destroying the Russian national identity, and then trying to stick geographically-clustered ethno-cultural groups into situations where they will be ruled by another ethnicity and culture they don't identify with. I think that winds up with a recommendation to split Russia up into self-governing states along ethnic lines. Turning a defeated country into an ally seems to be mostly about convincing them that what they were doing wasn't working, and that they need to change, and then making it easy for them to change, and then making it easy for that to turn into politics and institutions and economics. Basically, propaganda, find native people who believe in your ideas and put them in charge, create a democracy, and then make lots of economic investment into things you want available on reasonable terms. (all of that is mostly guesses, I'm not a political scientist) <i></i>

Kariston Draconis

Horse for the Force: The rights of the Clones is a tricky issue. Yes, the argument could certainly be made that creating an army of closes is a form of slavery, and personally I do subscribe to that school of thought, however if they don't fight, what else is left for them? They're trained to fight wars, war is what they know, it's really all they know for the most part. Take that away, take their purpose away from them, and what's left? The way I see it, the way I saw it in The Clone Wars, is that so many of the clones only really became their own people and saw themselves as individuals through their interactions with either the Jedi or other clones who had previously interacted with the Jedi. That, I think, should be the focus of the Jedi, helping them become their own people, develop relationships outside the chain of command, even take up hobbies. Not simply saying "Clones are People too", but showing it. It's alot harder to ignore someone showing something rather than saying it, after all. As for the Arming Act, yeah, I think it's time to bring Padme back. She is a pretty central character to this entire portion of the story after all.

Delphinous

A Third Path i am reminded of the aftermath of WW1 and WW2 where certain political leaders had good ideas for how to establish a long peace, like woodrow wilsons 14 point plan, but were overruled by everyone else wanting to severely punish the losers and take all that they personally wanted. i would imagine that some world leaders will want to help establish peace and help russia rebuild it's government, but many will want the break russia up into smaller countries, absorb the nearest regions into themselves, and impose harsh penalties and restrictions and repayments on them. i honestly think that they would succeed in this unless someone powerful spoke up about it. i don't think harry should participate or Big E, but Capt America would be fine, especially to give a speech about how you have to forgive and work for a better tomorrow, rather than punishing endlessly for yesterdays mistakes. so realistically, russia should have to give back territory it captured in the north in finland/the nordic/baltic region from WW1 until present, becuase they would demanding it. but after that it would depend on if if the world agrees to reconciliation or revenge. if they reconcile, then probably just some minor shuffling of borders to reduce tensions and some imposition of overwatch, something like a 10 year military governor in charge of the country with an elected democratic government underneath, to become the full reigning govermnet after the decade, or however long, period of peace and restructuring/rebuilding, and that the governership would either be a single individual selected from the start as a 'neutral' (mostly) individual, or a rotating position that changes every 2 years or something, and is selected by the UN instead of russia. if ti is revenge, then harsh ecenomic penalties and trade restrictions, russia would be forced to also provide the cost for rebuilding poland and all other damage that was done, russia would overall be broken up into smaller nations, much like how the USSR broke up (you'll have to create names), the russian military would be overall mostly decomisioned, and they would be restricted from building their military power past a minimal level. if this option is followed, russia would basically follow the german post WW1 path of getting angry because life was hell and starting another war because it's literally about the only thing to do to save the nation from death by strangulation

Forgottenone

Horse in the force: To be honest in cannon they did not have a choice in the matter at all. Over the years the republic stripped their (defensive) military might to the dust for more bread and butter. When the clone wars broke out the republic need a army NOW, which they had in clones army's a jedi bought and made in secret. So what will the jedi order do fuss over the fact they did not at all order this army with money they never had but, magically payed for or come out swinging defending the republic from the massive droid armies? That not choice at all in the real world and why I stand by the fact that the jedi order had not choice at all. With your story lots and lots of little things have changed plus a few major and the jedi already have a hidden army with a fleet. More importantly they are not nodding along with the republic anymore. To be honest I say when the jedi find this out and bring up to the inner circle which will not be all jedi as they have a lot new allies thanks to you and they will share this info as soon as they get it. As not sharing key information in war is flat out backstabbing, I see a many issues raised 1) this is proof someone wants a long bloody war 2)This army will force the jedi into the war even if they did not want to get involved 3) This is a lead to who every is the mastermind of the whole war 4) They have to stop production of any more clones as I do not see any of the allied forces accepting continued production 5) They also must use said clones that are made so they do not fall into some other organization in the republic 6) Ranma found enough proof that the sith or at least a dark force user group running around jedi order could call in the fact that army of light need again so they do not have to sign the Arming Act that is very poorly written as they already have a very well defined rules with the army of light. ( I would have loved to see that come out in the movies) 7) Arming Act is not arming act in truth it is nothing more then stripping the senate power and the allies of the jedi should be screaming at them to stop it 8) Jedi can buy some time and stall the Arming Act as Yoda and many key leaders are not there and the fact the jedi are ready for war and separatist now know it not a easy win as they thought. This is also a part were Yoda can speak up in the public and unlike cannon not meekly go along. They real question is not so much what the light side going to do as it is the dark side faction going to do. If they want the grand plan to go off without more hitches they will need to move peons in a way that reveals them to the jedi and that part has flaws too. Well just my thought on the matter.

vimesenthusiast

I did not know about Lexi Dio, or Ister Paddie - did know about Ask Aak, thank you very much for their names. Bail is the other head of the peace first faction. Mon Mothma, I will have to check to see if I mention Chandirlla. Of not, then yes, she can be one of the Centrist speakers. Regardless, thanks for the info, I knew I didn't like her for a reason LOL. 2. Knew about BR-0371, did not know about the Relief Fund. Knew about the Resettlement Acts, did not know that Demask had pushed for them. Fun stuff, and thank you!

vimesenthusiast

I like the idea of breaking the media strangle - forcing the government to allow foreign news crews, breaking open the governmental media outlets, putting them on the open market, making certain that it remains in the hands of civilians. The Finns getting back their land might not happen - there weren't many Finns living in that area back then, and it had been {X} amount of years since then. Restriction fo Russian forces is a given, but would indeed need to open the EDG to them. Shutting down any governmental Super Soldier program could be doable - letting Sage, Douglas and Richards at their computers to find them. GOOD STUFF.

vimesenthusiast

I like the idea of emphasizing the old boy's network concept, and the human-centric cors versus the mid rim, but on the other hand, the Muuns and the Nemiodians had a lot more power than they should have already - the TF arming their ships, the Muun basically running intergalactic banking/investing. They already had way more than a fair deal. SO I won't be able to emphasize it too much without the caveats.

vimesenthusiast

yes, but clones aren't magically bound, they are created and program. Living people, who despite that are trained since before, call it gestation, to fight. But they were treated far worse than normal soldiers - expended like droids, not paid. And, worse, they all had a limited lifespan - barely ten years for the most part. The only ones that didn't were the ARC troopers.

vimesenthusiast

Yeah, I knew that first point. no one wants another Middle East sort of situation. And it would be more about forcing the Russians to let in the rest of the world's news agencies and some real information than their own version of propaganda.

vimesenthusiast

War might be all they are trained for, but that doesn't mean it is all they can learn. The Samurai were supposedly trained for war above all, but, they did poetry, gardening, art etc. I agree that the Clones will need to interact with non-clones to grow beyond the mold. I do believe that they will need to fight, but I don't know if Ranma would be the best one to point that out. "What's wrong with fighting all the time?" LOL. That point is more something Harry would make. The slavery aspect though is one Ranma would make - the fact they were never given a choice, that they were literally grown to be discarded like droids. Can't emphasize that enough - the majority of Jedi treated the clones no better than droids, and used them up similarly.

vimesenthusiast

We will agree to disagree on Wilson LOL. Not going to go there. But yes, the French, in particular, did want to severely punish the Germans, not even the Austrians really, just the Germans (sore losers) which led directly to Hitler's rise to power. I do see a lot of countries pushing for Russia to be broken up, but it just isn't possible beyond a certain point: Belarussia and a few segments near Azerbaijan, Georgia etc. can be broken off successfully, but any more would be impossible for many reasons - social, militarily impossible to enforce, and even industrial/logistical. There are large swaths of Russia the sizer of other countries that depend on food from other segments, and oil and so forth from Siberia. All that won't stop people from trying though. Why do you think Harry shouldn't be the one to point this out though? Realistically speaking he is the single most powerful individual in the world however you slice it. If he lays out the law and forces people to see reality they will go along with it. A fully understandable internationally accredited democratic election of a new government is doable. I would say some economic penalties, but the majority should probably be on the social side of the ledger - because it was the society that allowed the Dire Wraiths and their allies to move through it so easily.

vimesenthusiast

Actually, the Republic could have started to train its own army during the crisis leading up to the war - they lacked the WILL to do so because Palpatine didn't want it to happen. Indeed, they could have actually relied on droids themselves - it wasn't as if they didn't know how to mass-produce them. Instead of having such a huge secret fleet as they did in canon (and here) they could have had a slightly smaller fleet but also a robot army of considerable size. Again, they didn't because Palpatine was playing both sides against one another. It's awfully easy to control the game when you are playing against yourself. I number 3 - Sifo Dias and Plagueis are both dead, and Sidious hasn't had anything to do with the cloning process since. 4 is going to be tricky as hell, but perhaps can be tied to 6 - however, the Army of Light was outlawed by the Ruusan Reformation - that would start another political fight. 7 - actually the Senate still had a lot of power well into the war, it was only in the last year of the war that the Emergency Powers Act and other such laws were created to give Palpatine more power to streamline the war efforts. But yes, Bulq is going to be forced to oust himself as a Sith, just to give the Jedi a target. so they stop looking for Sidious. Although if that works... heh... that would be telling.

Delphinous

harry can try to lay down the law and force people to agree with him, but if he tries he risks groups like america responding with 'you're just one man, not an elected head of state, and we shouldn't listen to you' and building up a lot of negative diplomatic points by trying to force other more established world leaders to obey him. the fact that he's right wouldn't matter, it would be their indignation at being told what to do that would make them drag their heels. if he's going to interfere, it's better for it to be some sort of a private discussion rather than a public ultimatum, so that the leaders can save face. thats my opinion on it. now, i'm sure that hela would be in favor of him putting his foot down, but doing so moves harry a lot closer the the line of being a dictator who is ruling through strength of force, rather than a leader who is strong but rules through respect. if you want harry to be waving the big stick and telling people what to do, it would be best done as a sort of opener at the negotiations, rather than him trying to change things one the ball gets rolling.

Wrandral

Palpatine is never hurting for pawns to do his bidding or take the fall for him ^^.

Rumil's Apprentice

ATP The simplest reparation for Russia would be giving back all the territory it snapped up during the 20th century when they were being a very overt bully. Specially, Karelia from Finland, Königsberg (now Kaliningrad Oblast) from Germany, the Kuril Islands and southern Sakhalin from Japan, Tuva (previously governed by Mongolia and Manchu Empire), West Belarus and West Ukraine from Second Polish Republic, Ivangorod from Estonia, and the Pytalovsky District from Latvia (src https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_evolution_of_Russia#Soviet_Union and https://www.salon.com/2014/03/27/7_parts_of_russia_that_other_countries_could_call_theirs_partner/) You could have a UN or NATO oversight group that forces greater democracy and less crony-capitalism and corruption into the laws and governence. Also, Russia could easily be forced to join the EDF as a full number in exchange for continued existence as a nation-state on Earth.