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Well, here’s an emergency episode available to all: Taylor Swift has categorized her prior works into the five stages of grief for an @applemusic playlist exclusive. But of course, The Snakes have a lot to say about it. With some of our own delusions confirmed and many others brought to the forefront, we take a long hard look (yet again) at the Joever of it all in advance of TTPD in a mere fortnight.

Comments

Jessica

I WAS GONNA GO TO BED OMG I HATE YOU (i love you)

Raphaëlle

I just logged onto the Patreon and got blessed with this video at the same time 🙏🏻

Marco Rubboli

/EDIT: just finished and there was some extreme cooking/ I originally thought you had recorded a 90 minutes video about the Lizard's methmath playlists & when I discovered the truth I was disappointed

courtney

can't believe how many times it's been joever since this time last year, and it's going to be even more joever in two weeks time 😭

Ty Eldridge

thank you for giving us so much food your hard work is much appreciated🙏

Raphaëlle

I agree that Lover is def a love song. But I saw a unhinged tweet that kinda gagged me, along the lines of « the ‘and at every table, I’ll save you a seat’ line actually adresses him always being missing at important events and career milestone »

bloop

Loved this episode but wasn’t a fan of Madeline saying Joe should die, I know it’s just a kiki and she was being facetious but reminded me too much of the “jokes” people make about Zack

Clara

i’ve been saying there’s something sus about high infidelity, while it could be calvin/joe tea and she’s just repurposed it for the playlist it could also be about joe/matty. maybe the april 29th isn’t referring to 2016 but instead 2022 when taylor would have been finishing up midnights which we know matty worked on/by then they had reconnected already through jack. idk seems plausible if we then take question and labyrinth being about matty as well. i feel like many people don’t know the lore about them so it’s hard to imagine taylor writing about matty since midnights (or even folklore) but the timeline of their involvement is definitely sketchy and i think there was some overlap with joever. hope there’s some clarification on ttpd

Raphaëlle

As a French Patreon, i feel it’s my DUTY to provide a guillotine for the live episode in London 🫡

chappell roan

my EOAS sweater is arriving today so should i wait to watch this till it arrives or no??

Erin

I think she’s trying to give us hints about what happened through the stories in the older songs! Songs about her being pissed about a man cheating 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️ You Don’t Get to Tell Me About Sad Song 👀👀👀👀

Sara woods

Best thing to wake up to! You guys are the best! 🤍🤍🤍

Erin

😂😂😂😂

Erin

I just finished& I have more to say! I think it’s more about what the songs are actually saying, not necessarily what they were originally about. Listening through a playlist and take the song for what they are, it makes a lot more sense. It’s more insight on her perspective of the relationship. All the love song in I Can Do It With a Broken Heart, well now all of those simply belong to Travis. We all know end game was never written about Joe, so maybe the real invisible string was tied to Travis 😂😂😂😂

Candace Tirado

No days off ologists slaying per usual. Great day to be a snake ! A tortured snake that is.

Ruby256

High Infidelity - think it’s predominantly a Calvin song, but the second verse is her hypothesising how she could see herself ending up doing to the same thing to Joe as she did to Calvin because of how unseen and lonely she feels (with the parallels to Dear Reader lyrics)

Ruby256

I think the real tea and ‘evidence’ may end up being in the bonus tracks - and the different lyrics with each vinyl correspond with each bonus tracks. it makes sense more sense that she chose Old habits die screaming for the depression playlist, because that’s the vinyl with The Black Dog as the bonus track

Zara Hennessy

My Betty theory - I remember her saying in the long pond studios that she heard joe singing the ‘fully formed chorus’ of Betty and that she came in and finished writing it with him during lockdown, pretty sure it was the first ever song they wrote together from what she said. My theory is she put it there basically as a statement that during that entire period of time she was in denial. I feel like she thought maybe this is how I get to have both Joe and my career, if I bring him into the process maybe he will love it too, see the magic, etc. Maybe she hoped it would show him why she was so passionate and he won’t be so opposed to me touring etc because he will be part of it. ALSO feel like she hoped that songwriting together would help them bond and save them. Well that clearly didn’t work out if I’m even in the right ballpark…. I’m rattling my cage

LadyQ

Also in "Lover," Can I go where you go? Can we always be this close? There's definite insecurity... she's begging rather than making a statement of knowing.

LadyQ

But honestly baby, who's counting? (1,2,3)

Krista Dabel

Per Wikipedia, “Alwyn is the son of a psychotherapist mother” and he’s going to need a long chat with mummy on the couch in 2 weeks. His anxiety is probably at all time high right now! Cooked. 👩‍🍳

Krista Dabel

And I don’t know why, but when I read that his mom was a psychotherapist that felt like an immediate red flag. 🚩 Maybe because in movies kids of psychotherapist parents are depicted as the most depraved, conniving, manipulative, etc. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I cannot for the life of me think of an example so someone help me out if you are following my derangement…

Erin

THIS!!!!!!!! This is on another level

Krista Dabel

Wait, why do yall dislike Blake & Ryan? 🤔

Burtasaurusrex11

Yessss I've been waiting for this ever since yesterday's lizard review post.

Amy Versprille

I was so excited when she released these playlists! I have been waiting g for something and this is super fun!!! Thank you for rushing and getting g this video out! I love it!!! You guys are the best!

Forty2times

"Britta is attracted to men in pain. It helps her pretend to be mentally healthy." Community

Forty2times

With Carolina--she made an entire song for a movie that she wasn't attached to and sent it to the director for free. She was bored and lonely.

RiskBat

It's because they grow up to be emotionally intelligent but in a way that overthinks everything. It sucks the joy out of life when you're with someone who gets stuck in their own head like that and can't make any moves because they always play out in their head the way the simplest interpersonal stuff can go wrong. Like speaking openly, publicly, proudly about your famous gf. Dude wouldn't even name his favorite TS song when asked.

maryna

i feel TTPD could be about accusing herself because she was the one who cheated because the relationship with the turkey had slowly become non-fulfilling for her (e.g. high infidelity). in this scenario she herself is categorized ("enters") into evidence of the taylor is a cheater case. and lavender haze is the explanation for her cheating. she wants the beginning stages of love back - in the end even if it's not with joe.

maryna

and maybe technically it was not cheating because maybe they had been in an off phase, but that would still feel like actual cheating to someone as righteous as taylor.

maryna

community. hands down the best tv show ever made! 😃

maryna

my new read of lover is that there is a kind of ceremony (maybe in her head/heart) ("ladies and gentlement will you please stand") and then everybody expects her to present joe as her husband after that ceremony, kind of like "you're my, my, my, my husband". but he never would be her husband. he's just a lover. or maybe this too far-fetched?

Madeline

the way i fucking SCREAMED when i saw this

maryna

"william" fucking "bowery" is a co-write on some of the songs on folklevermore only to make sure the songs are not interpreted as being about their relationship. it was probably him who requested it. and taylor, still being so delusional as to hope she can make it work and/or he will come around at that time, agreed to it so she wouldn't betray his wish for privacy.

Cynthia

Love your mics! sparkly!!! GREAT EPISODE you guys are amazing....

Walt Mossberg

I love you guys. Zach’s YT channel helped me understand Taylor and the music after I became a Swiftie in 2019. But, with all respect, I was really disappointed that you chose to analyze these Apple Music playlists almost entirely in the context of her relationship with Joe, even essentially skipping many fabulous older songs. Obviously, mentioning the Joe thing a few times when it’s especially relevant is fine. But why did you feel the need to do it 90% through the Joe lens. I’d have much preferred an evaluation of the music on its own terms.

Sonny Miller

Can we just take a second to appreciate how GORGINA Zach’s skin looks

Sonya

I think I forgot you existed even though Taylor has a hard time moving on is about Calvin. That was a weird time but since her mind was filled with Joe anxiety that that song can be about just forgetting about that relationship which lasted for a pretty long time before Joe.

MM

My heart won’t start anymore, for you //// do I really have to tell you how he brought me back to life?

courtney

watching Taylor try to explain betty on the LPSS and how she believes Betty and James are together forever, then seeing Jack and Aaron's reactions while she is speaking, is justification enough for it being on the denial playlist

Tspd7

my thing with betty is that taylor was in denial that betty and james could actually end up together after everything that happened.

briar

what madeline said about not listening to willow through the eyes of joever is so me with tgw (yes the glee song as zack called it 😭 let me liveee) everytime i see some fuckass theory about it i must shield my eyes …

CHRIS 01 🪽 #HOUSEWIFE

Could it be that the tortured poets department does not symbolize a detectives office, but symbolizes the the tortured poet, i.e. Taylor Swift, departing from Joe?

Clara

exactly! i think some of the verses on high infidelity are more joe coded than calvin tbh. she talks about being a bride getting dragged down the aisle and i’m supposed to believe that’s referring to calvin? also the free loading, keeping count, that doesn’t sound like calvin to me

Lance

Hey guys really listen to them in this video, DO NOT SPOIL/LEAK ANYTHING! Let people have surprises in their lives for once!

nate

Probably my favourite episode yet

Madelyn

Also what’s crazy about the timeline for me especially is that Joe was at her 2023 Grammy party. Remember… she was wearing his jacket and he posted a pic with Jack that night

Ally ❤️

Thank you Snakes!!! We are incredibly well-fed! Oh! To be living in these times!

Ty Eldridge

i honestly feel like taylor sees labyrinth as being about travis now (i thought the plane was going down, howd you turn it right around) she thinks joe is the final blow, but travis turns the plane around

Natalie

I always thought about it as an academic college department.

Ally ❤️

A fact we have well-documented in the lpss fireside chat 💬

Ally ❤️

Always! I wish I could go back in time and do a better job with my skin. That man is blessed… and rigorous

Ally ❤️

They body being bejeweled

Ally ❤️

This makes so much sense… 💯

Ally ❤️

Cue the cascade ocean wave blues 🌊 in 3…2… APRIL 19th

Cynthia

Second post on this episode-- I've listened to this for the third time! Several of your episodes reveal the DEPTH of your knowledge but this one is AMAZING-- the two of you together commenting on what seems like over one hundred songs....plus the context, the controversies, the lore...it's so good ..thank you!

Ash

The way ijbol when Zack looked right at the camera about Betty and then, within like 10 mins, was tearing up during Madeline's analysis of Sweet Nothing 😭 the rollercoaster of feels you two send me on is in the same crazy spirit of the HBIC herself, and I always love the ride 🎢💞

Monika

Zach your points about the pandemic/folklore acclaim are spot on- such a shift in their relationship goals. Every long lasting relationship has to deal with lots of changes and it's if you deal with that change together or not. Our diva comes with bells and whistles!!!

Monika

#notmywillow those witchy vibes distracted me, I am also ignoring all of it

Monika

With renegade, it was almost too obvious that I thought she wouldn't dare write it about him because, like how could you stay together after hearing that. Aaron also co-wrote it and he spoke in the Long Pond sessions how he is/was very depressive and how lucky he feels his family sticks with him. I also considered maybe she was writing from her partner's perspective- in dealing with her and her midnight rain or indecision at the time-does she want a family? does she want to still be in the spotlight? does she want to be touring forever etc...

Ash

PS: my thought for August has always been it's looking back on the relationship after some time and perspective, and the acceptance really sits in "but you were never mine." I kinda see it as more like a person looking back and feeling kinda sad for her younger self like, ooof you were down bad but now after being a little healed, I can tell you that he was never mine. ❤️‍🩹

Grace

So it goes immediately came to mind when you discussed her references to keeping score and their mind games…. What does she mean by being his illusionist? With Joever hindsight some tongue in cheek reputation moments stand out…..

Stav

She gave us so much tea with these playlists, mother of mother. The one that really stood out to me and I'm sitting with is that she put Invisible String in Acceptance.....ssupper interesting. It makes sense as in the lyrics of the song; but I wonder if she's indicating something about where she's at and if so - it makes me even more curious for TTPD.

maryna

i guess some red flags were blocked by a lavender haze ;) i heard when you lay a purple layer on top of a red one, the red one looks a lighter shade of purple. and does anyone think about the fact that both "red" and "maroon" are track twos? like, loving jake was red and loving joe was maroon...

Kylee

I need to know who’s out here trying to say that songs were ruined when they broke up because I’m having the opposite issue. Case in point: champagne problems. You can not tell me otherwise girl, just put it in the pile with tolerate it & DBATC. And this bitch out here telling everyone how ‘cathartic’ it would be to have us all scream that she’s fucked in the head back at her. God she’s twisted…I love her so much Hahahah 👑

Kylee

P.S. Where’s our London Boy on denial playlist? Because if that song is wrong, then I don’t want to be right.

Kylee

This is exactly how I feel about tolerate it. It’s another one of those two sides of the same coin examples. They’re both so blatantly obvious in hindsight, and have the same sentiment. If someone were to ask me what I thought their relationship was like behind closed doors, I would quote tolerate it, word for word.

Kylee

I’m listening to this again, and I forgot about my High infidelity notes. This one definitely reads anger for me. ‘Do you really want to know where I was April 29? Do I really have to count the constellations in his eyes?’ She’s our spiteful queen and we clap.

Kylee

Ok, last remarks. I’ll admit it, I’m a Labyrinth stan, and it does make sense to me where it’s at. I always interpret it as falling in love again after a bad breakup and that feeling/rush/excitement/nervousness that it brings because it’s brand new. This is just my own little thing, but I actually hear this song under an Imogen Heap production style, it gives Clean. And even though the production style is what really ties these two songs for me, their themes both work under the constructs of the playlist.

V

I ofc could be wrong but sweet nothing also could be a reflection on traditional gender roles in domestic situations. “All you ever wanted from me was… nothing”. Like men have historically wanted nothing from women, they just wanted them to be the sweet housewives at home. Men in general haven’t wanted their wives to be out there doing great things. So maybe she realizes that the sweet nothing, humming in the kitchen that many dream of isn’t so sweet? Which then kind of could lead into the subject matter on midnight rain

Beth

I can't cope with how confidently Zack said the 1 wasn't in the playlists, full gaslighting for Madeleine there

Beth

When she introduced False God at the secret session she talked about breakups! she referenced Anna Faris talking about her breakup with Chris Pratt (I think I have the correct names!) and how in an interview she watched that inspired her to write the song Anna said that a breakup is "the loss of a belief system." She also referenced False God when she introduced Afterglow specifically the line "and I can't talk to you when you're like this / staring out the window like I'm not your favourite town"

Monika

Where is London Boy on the playlist?!?!?!?!!? It didn't even cross my mind. Maybe again that's tooooo on the nose. She likes the ambiguity of each song on each list to preface TTPD, if she placed London Boy on a specific list maybe it would give an insight to the album? ....even though it's obvious to all of us lol

Kylee

If London Boy isn’t a delusional diva, not sure what is! Too soon? On the nose? I don’t think so. Hate to break it to you girlie, but you’ve given us a couple + options of a ‘London Boy’ to choose from…And I’m Sorry Joseph, you’re just not that special. 😢 Hell, you’re not even the first Joe 🦗🦗🦗

hannah amtmann

YOU guys I was just listening to Taylor’s NYU speech and at the end she says “trust me, when you lose things, you gain things too” in MAY 2022 and she says the same thing in the acceptance playlist (I don’t think there’s a correlation but it’s kinda funny)

Amy Versprille

Does anyone remember which episode he talks about his skin care routine or products?

Amy Versprille

Also - Renegade - if Taylor had known about Joe’s baggage she wouldn’t have started it is a lot like would’ve could’ve should’ve and how if she had known better or if he had known better it would never had started…

Amy Versprille

Also - the intro on Apple Music says this is the five stages of heartbreak - not grief. She flipped it because she is so clever - because heartbreak and death or grief are tied together with an invisible string

Sonny Miller

Think it’s the one where he reads unpopular Taylor opinions and walks us through his routine

Kylee

This is how I have always read the song. It’s leaving someone behind, only to have to find the courage to fall in love with someone new, despite your better judgment. You can hear the blissful confusion of new love in the composition. I’ve always paired Labyrinth & Clean together & the fact that she has them next to each other on the playlist has sent me into a spiral….I am not ok. hahahah

maryna

i wonder if his integrity made her seem small not only because of his personality but maybe also because of taylor not being loyal to him - especially on april 29th 😉. i don't know, but i'm getting taylor-sought-closeness-with-another-guy-because-she-and-joe-were-broken-up-for-the-millionth-time vibes to be honest. this may not be cheating if you're actually broken up, but i feel it can easily be interpreted as or feel like cheating if you still kind of love each other (by both parties).

Sarah Mac

Have yall thought about going back and seeing if your thoughts on the playlists have changed after TTPD came out?

Sarah

this video in november 2025 is insane! love it

Sophie

the way Carolina has the lyrics “guilty as sin” and the 1975 has a song called Caroline 😫

Rachel

coming back to this and hearing the word dickmatised… the prophetic snakes..