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Episode 112 -- The Natural Childbirth Movement (Patreon)

Published:
2025-12-09 07:13:35
Imported:
2026-09

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Content

Moira walks Adrian through the strange, diagonalist history of the idea of "natural birth" -- from 1930s eugenicists to hippie communes, from radical feminist spaces to MAHA and the "wild birth"-movement. This episode comes with a bunch of trigger warnings -- please make sure you're in the right headspace before diving in!

Some of the texts we refer to in the episode:

Grantly Dick-Read, Natural Childbirth (1933)

Adrienne Rich, Of Woman Born (1977)

Barbara Ehrenreich, Witches, Midwives and Nurses (1972)

Ina May Gaskin, Spiritual Midwifery (1975)

Comments

Sam Best

I would love to hear what you guys have to say about the conservative freakout around surrogacy, and all of the gendered subtext it contains

Gwen

+1 for covering the topic of surrogacy

MWD

This reminds me of having to explain very clearly and repeatedly to undergrads students in my classes that I am not against medications when I critique Pharma. It's the profit motive that is the problem. PS: Vaccines are awesome and I'm very excited for a new generation from mRNA research. If I don't go heavy handed with staking out what I was actually saying they walk away assuming I'm at the extreme. Like in their heads they fill in the rest of the "Pharma bad" or "mainstream medicine bad" narrative even though I never said those things at all.

hermitdad1

Also I want to add ina may gaskin holds problematic opinions on race. At least she did say a bunch of racist crap aboit black women. I don't know if she still does

Moira Donegan

Yes! I had a whole section that I was calling “vaginal phrenology” but I had to cut it because there was just too much there to fit …

Kiah Bowers

I really appreciate how nuanced you were covering this topic. I'm a lesbian mom who conceived 2 daughters via fertility clinic, and was very influenced with my first by the natural childbirth movement. I attempted a home birth with a midwife that resulted in a hospital transfer with epidural; I had a bad reaction to the epidural and a fairly traumatic birth, compounded by my feelings of having "failed" homebirth. That started me questioning this movement and its so-called feminism; ironically, I had come to it via my women's studies professor who was VERY pro-natural childbirth, very pro-Ina May Gaskin, etc. With my second I chose to deliver in hospital, with a nurse-midwifery team. I was induced but ended up having a wonderful experience and delivering without pain meds, not wanting to repeat my bad-epidural experience. The pain is...so hard to describe. It's like my brain reached another level of consciousness somehow that made it seem distant. Having had those 2 very different experiences leaves me at a crossroads with plenty of critique for the natural birth/crunchy parenting shit as well as the medical model under U.S. capitalism. It meas I hold a lot less judgement for how other people give birth, but am sensitive to the judgements of others on all sides of the issue. I was nervous about listening to this episode because of that but I'm glad you approached the topic with care.

mrakobesiye

Haven't listened yet but thank you for covering this !

Molly

Where does hypnobirthing fit into all this?

mrakobesiye

The history of modern obstetrics is very misunderstood and the natural childbirth movement has propagated a lot of bad analyses of why certain interventions were developed.

mrakobesiye

Early obstetrics texts are a catalogue of horrors. The kinds of things that regularly happened to women before modern medicine + contraception are indescribable. C sections were a form of necropsy until antibiotics

Kelsey B

This was so great. While the free birth movement is so so extreme, I’ve seen pieces of it in the ways my friends and how they discuss birth. Let’s all just get through! This is coming from a woman who nearly died during childbirth and whose baby also almost died. A rapid C-Section saved both of us and now she’s a sweet first grader so free birth can fuck right off.

Melinda Hileman

As interesting as that sounds, I hesitate to ask you to release it on the Patreon.... I have this feeling that I'd just start crying and throwing things. (At least, that's what I did whilst reading the Guardian pieces...)

MARIA PRAMAGGIORE

Cultural-musical adjunct to the conservative pronatal hippies you’ve researched so well here—the group Seals and Crofts. Love you two!

Dhoch

A minor point, but: what does 'midwife' mean in the US? Here in the UK it's a profession requiring an undergrad degree or similar training, and they're the main people you'll meet in the run up to and during a birth - a brief google says that the NHS employs 24,000 of them. But it sounds like it's something v different over there? (Of note to this discussion, the UK is recovering from a 'natural births' scandal where the NHS pushed against 'unnecessary' medical interventions during birth and likely cost many women their lives until very recently - see e.g. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2022/03/why-has-it-taken-tragedy-to-stop-the-nhs-pushing-for-natural-births)

Kai

My mother gave birth to me and my two siblings on a futon in a basement 2 hours from the nearest hospital in rural Pennsylvania (Amish Country). No pain meds, no doctor, just the local midwife, all three times. She was in no way forced to do so, thankfully, that was her choice, but she is a big proponent of letting people who give birth do what they want with their bodies AND acknowledging that what she did was incredibly risky. If there had been a major emergency any of the three times, help would have likely been too far away to reach in time. I've talked to her about the "natural" childbirth thing and she has one thing to say about it, which is that childbirth isn't magical it is bloody and painful and gross and maybe a little miraculous, and selling people something different is a disservice at best and dangerous at worst.

Laura R

They used my mom to try out hypnosis during my birth in 1962. I don't think she believes it really worked. But she was willing to try because she'd been completely unconscious for my big brother's birth.

Cara

Thank you all so so much for covering this. I have a former neighbor (/friend, sigh) who has fully gone down the wellness to MAHA/conservative Christian pipeline, and freebirth > obsession with “women’s spaces” (transphobia) was absolutely the conduit that got her there. Really appreciate your rigorous and nuanced work here to draw out these connections - I think it’s been way under-theorized.

Nathan

All this talk about birthing mindset to reduce pain reminds me of Todd Akin’s remarks about “legitimate rape” allowing victims to “shut that whole thing down.”

Jessica Davila

I was wondering whether you could point me to your sources on the cult like attributes of The Farm? I was talking about this episode in another group and there was a lot of pushback on the idea that Ina May Gaskin is problematic at all, and with the claims in the podcast in particular about the level of control Steven Gaskin had in particular. Specifically, claims about breast feeding and being assigned couples. I feel like it’s detracting from the point but could use a little more info. Saying “I heard it on a podcast”! Is unsatisfactory.

rrsteiner12

Thanks for the episode. Some people I was talking to were discussing the Farm and wondering if you had other sources you were using for some of the information on it, there was some debate over the culty aspects of that community so if you have other resources I’d love to see.

Geneva Samuelson

In the United States, a midwife is someone who has gone through a nursing program and then received a master’s degree in midwifery. They work in hospitals or birthing centers. If you opt to have a normal hospital birth, most of the time you will only interact with nurses and your OBGYN.

Stephanie Corbitt

Such a great episode! I always love yalls thoughtful and nuanced takes! As someone who understands the anxieties around the medicalization of childbirth, but also had severe preeclampsia and an emergency c-section delivering my beautiful now 16 month old, the “wild birth” movement scares me to my core. It really is the natural consequence of these beliefs and it’s scary to see them creep into normal discourse from all angles. For anyone who wants a further deep dive on some of this, I highly recommend Truly Tradly Deeply from Annie Kelly of the QAA pod!

Nevrosiel

Great episode and thanks for clearing up the background of these ideas

Karen Cox

I have two sons ànd I used to regulate the practice of midwifery in Texas. I had a case against one of the earlier right wing hippie midwives who failed to transfer à complex birth ànd ended up killing the baby via strep infection. I have followed this movement with increasing horror for eight years now ànd am so glad it’s finally getting some attention.

WGM

That series plus the prior 'Cursed Media' series on anti-trans medical professional had more overlap with IBWTR than I ever expected (both in perspective and a lot of material I didn't expect)

WGM

The entire "twilight sleep" also has overlaps with rape myths around roofies - not remembering pain does not eliminate trauma!

Laura

Really interesting episode that's making me curious to research how obstetrics developed here in Japan. From what I've seen, epidurals aren't done as a matter of course and are restricted to specific hospitals, and I've also heard that in some L&D wards the women are admonished for screaming/making any noice during labor--but, on the other hand, I don't think home births or super crunchy "natural" movements are a big thing here; nor would it come from the Christian religious "woman's punishment from god" angle, either.

Lyss

I’ve been hoping you all would cover this, thank you!! Women dying & letting their babies die to perform gender ideals, it’s just so extreme & depressing. I’ve been lurking in online “natural birth” spaces for 5+ years and it’s b l e a k. TMI here but Gaskin’s line about “our bodies can’t make babies we can’t deliver” just makes me laugh at this point. I like to joke that my body is a baby death trap, bc my pelvis is apparently not shaped right and both of my births resulted in very scary shoulder dystocias. That Gaskin maneuver really did work though!

Trent Taylor

Midwife can refer to two very divergent groups of people: 1) Clinical Nurse Midwives (CNMs) who received a nursing degree and then pursued more training specific to midwifery (usually 18-24 months) and have an overseeing accrediting board. Usually affiliated with hospitals with admission privileges 2) Lay midwives, which come from a wide variety of accreditations and qualifications and experience levels and ongoing accreditation requirements. To my knowledge hospitals do not grant privileges to any lay midwives, and they prefer to deliver at home or at birth centers. Sometimes they have a good relationship with hospital providers for high risk referrals

Trent Taylor

MOIRA THIS WAS AMAZING I’m a cis man (MD) who delivers babies. I’ve always felt this tension between my training and some of the natural birthing attitudes which are sometimes compelling. I appreciate the clear distinction. ALSO I’ve never consciously digested the irony of a movement that pushes back on patriarchy by becoming a judgmental, prescriptive anti-medicine practice. Thank you for this, too!! I’ll be a better doctor thanks to this!

Erin Mather

I had two natural childbirths and cosign everything Moira says in the episode.

Laura Souffir

I'll admit, I was very nervous going into this episode (even though I have been a listener for a while). I am a mother and I had an extremely traumatic cesarean section leading to years of PTSD. Subsequently, I chose to have a "natural birth" for my two other children. They were absolutely redemptive and beautiful homebirths, attended by a certified midwife. I am also a chapter leader for a non-profit (the International Cesarean Awareness Network or ICAN) which aims to improve maternal outcome by reducing preventable cesareans through education, advocacy, and peer-to-peer support. We support moms who want birth in hospitals, birthing centers, and at home by helping them access (legit) research and advocate for themselves and their babies. Given my background, I was worried that this episode would depict women like me as raging, anti-medicine, right-wing zealots. However, what I found was an extremely well-researched subject and nuanced views on "natural" childbirth. I so appreciated both of you voicing that obstetrics as it is practiced by certain doctors can be fundamentally traumatic for parents and that some women find validation of their trauma in the natural childbirth movement when no one else seems to listen. The one part that gave me pause was your take on coping methods. Having experienced labor three times, I can say that, at least for myself, leaning into the pain, breathing, and learning self-hypnosis (using audio tracks) helped a lot. However, I completely agree in the sense that it is most likely different for every birth parent and medicated pain relief have 100% their place in obstetrics. Anyway, thank you for putting together an episode that was sensitive and sensible and respectful while calling out the hypocrisy of a sometimes predatory movement. This finally pushed me over the edge, I became a Patreon member today.

Moira Donegan

Thanks so much for this, and for trusting us enough to listen even if you felt nervous. That means a lot to me. 💘

death nurse

Hi! I am probably the person Jessica below is referring to! I absolutely find Ina May problematic, but there are claims in this that are not true. My mom and grandparents came in on the caravan that founded the Farm. There were no assigning of couples, mothers breastfed their own babies, and other parents’ babies if someone couldn’t lactate. I really have liked this podcast so far! I just wanted to reach out. I called some relatives that founded the farm to discuss and they were horrified at these claims, as well as claims of cult and stephen as an evil, controlling figure. Again, never would i dismiss transphobia or racism. But these above things are patently untrue

Laura Souffir

I learned self-hypnosis using audio tracks for my two homebirths (attended by a licensed, certified midwife with 30 years of experience). While I cannot say that it was pain-free, it really did help relieve some of the pain. It most likely cannot be peer-reviewed but it seemed worth it to me to try. In the end, being prepared, getting birth education, and not bracing with every contraction felt a lot better than my 1st labor where I had not prepared at all. That said, these programs are also a slippery slope: language is changed ("pain" becomes "pressure", "contractions" are "waves"...), negative experiences are often erased, and birth imagery and ideals of mother goddess become prevalent. It is important that parents seeking this type of pain relief use this as a tool for labor, not a prescriptive ideology or, worse, a substitute for medical care.

Sami James

CNM's don't just have medical training, they are literally registered nurses who have gone through additional training in obstetrics to become midwives. In most States, this is a requirement to legally call oneself a "certified midwife" and provide obstretic care to patients. However, in CALIFORNIA you may go through training and become a "Certified Midwife," but you are notably NOT a nurse in any capacity and therefore have far less training than a CNM. To my knowledge, California is the only State in the US that even allows this or gives this credential, but I could be wrong so don't quote me on that. Now excuse me while I go have an orgasm as my vagina is being ripped apart 😉

Stephanie Corbitt

Totally! I love hearing overlapping but differing discussions on topics from my favorite podcasts. I also recommend This Podcast Will Kill You’s pregnancy and IVF/fertility series. Conspirituality has some great episodes too focusing on the wellness to right wing pipeline.

A Felt

After listening to this episode I stumbled upon a book written by Grantly Dick Read at a flea market. Very cursed moment of coincidence.

sonorasgirl

As someone who both has endometriosis and was born with a congenital heart defect that required 4 surgeries before the age of two to live, thank you for this. I really, deeply hate the message that women’s bodies “just know what to do!” No. I would’ve died without medical intervention. My sister would’ve died without medical intervention. I am only able to live a somewhat normal life because of medical intervention. Don’t get me wrong - I’ve experienced a TON of medical misogyny (ask anyone with endo; we’re not strangers to it) but the idea that your feminine body is wise, to me, just fully reeks of intentional ignorance. Evolution specializes in good enough, not perfect. *also* want to add I’m not trying to invalidate distrust in the medical practice or the trauma people who give birth experience in hospitals. That’s fully valid. I’m just expressing frustration with the idea that my reproductive organs somehow know something and are a gift, cause frankly, all they have given me is debilitating pain and mood swings lol.

Cindy LCSW

Hi there. Wonderful episode. Wanted to follow up on Adrian’s mention of a technique during labor in which the Mom is taught to “go with” or “go into” the pain ( Bradley Method) as it cycles (rather than try to distract from pain as in Lamaze). I had two babies in the late 80’s and had taken both Lamaze and Bradley classes. You’re right, Moira, one hour into labor it was clear Lamaze was useless. Bradley, however, helped quite a bit, as in bringing a pain level of 10 down to a 7-8 for some of the time. That’s a big help when everything is happening. Too bad all this nutty and “judgey” Ideology gets mixed up with women needing actual help in a difficult life-altering experience. Cynthia

Zee G

Moira you are so so wise - birth is such an incredibly weird time, even when the people around you are doing all the right things, and I have truly never felt so vulnerable as when I had been awake and in labour for 40 hours, was high as fuck on nitrous, and the doctors asked me to consent to an episiotomy. I nodded and my partner could see I didn't know what I was agreeing to and made them explain it to me again slowly - if your birth partner is a bit crap or disengaged (which so many men are in that birthing room!) it would be so easy to feel violated and distrustful of medical establishments going forward. There's sometimes a bit of sneering about 'these Mormon women who don't vaccinate their kids and get pediatric advice from Tiktok, what idiots' but I think we could have a little more empathy for what could lie behind that.

Nicole

CNM= Certified nurse midwife: a registered nurse first, then a Masters or doctorate degree in obstetric, gynecological, and midwifery care. Legally practicing in all 50 states across hospital to home birth spectrum, for women across their lifespan (not just pregnancy). CM= Certified Midwife. A person who got the masters or doctorate but was not a nurse first. Not common, and not able to practice in all states. CPM= Certified Professional Midwife. Not a nurse, but trained via apprenticeship and a certification program. Usually only work in home birth settings. Not a recognized licensure in all 50 states (but not only legal in CA). There are also lay midwives who practice a more traditional and less regulated style of care. More similar to what Moira described in the midwives of the 19th century, a "local" woman who is part of your culture who is trusted and respected, and may also have another job. Not common, not legal in the strictest sense, but often working in remote/secluded communities (think Native American Reservations, or very rural Alaska). Complicated and confounding to say the least!! 🤦🏼‍♀️

Nicole

Just here to drop a friendly community PSA that doulas are an extremely important member of any labor & delivery care team. Everyone deserves a doula! HOWEVER, they are NOT medical professionals. They do not have the training to provide evidence based life saving prenatal care, or to help you deliver a baby without other help. They are experts at what they do, providing support throughout the entire perinatal period, and we should let them stay in the realm of their expertise!

Nicole

Trent did a good job of describing the two different categories of Midwives in the USA, just here to add a couple more notes! Like so many parts of our healthcare system, these things vary by region. In many parts of the US there are CNMs (Certified Nurse Midwives) who work in hospitals. CNMs certainly do also work in birth centers or home birth settings as well. Their training is the same as a Nurse Practitioner (Registered Nurse first, then a Masters degree). OB/GYN subspecialty just happens to give them a different title than NP. Lay midwives are illegal in many (but certainly not all states), and from my understanding work only in home birth settings. While the unregulated nature of their work can sometimes lead to bad faith actors and unfortunate outcomes, they often offer more culturally competent care and retain a similar relationship to their communities as the women Moira described in the 19th century- "local" women respected for their skill, trained in apprenticeships.

Katie

I haven’t been pregnant or given birth, so take this with a grain of salt, but I thought the episode was smart, thoughtful and very well done. Not that I would expect anything less! How did I have no idea Gaskin was a cult leader? Seems like that should get top billing when she’s discussed! Thank you for this and every episode.

trashd

Apparently there can be significant significant differences in effect with pitocin vs oxytocin 🤷