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Page 1688 (Patreon)

Published:
2024-11-21 12:32:31
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

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😓

A couple of days of no pages coming up, gang! Here's the schedule:

Friday - no page

Saturday - page!

Sunday - no page

Monday - hopefully a page!

Files

Previews only

Comments

Celeste

Go Charlie !!! so proud of him !

Merel

Charlie is so brave. He's only 16 and he is speaking out against something that is a huge problem for lots of kids, including himself. The head teacher historically has not done much to combat homophobia at the school, so for Charlie to stand up to him like that? He's gonna be an incredible head boy, I can just tell.

Arah!☆

You got this Charlie!!!

Sarah Jacobs

Oh this will be so amazing! Charlie, you got this! And excuse me Mr Barnes, do you not realise what comic you are in? Get with it and give Truham the queer club it deserves!! ❤️🥰

Kristen

So proud of him! Fight for what’s right Charlie!!! ❤️🏳️‍🌈

Jacqui Chesterton

Social groups 🙄 Go on Charlie, you know what to say 💖

Ava

PROUD OF HIM

Siska

Go Charlie, don't take that bs!

Charlie

There is always reasons to say no to new things. (Face palm) come on Charlie, fight for what’s right!! Also, have a wonderful weekend doing whatever it is you’re doing Alice. I hope you have the best time. ❤️

Noah

CHARLIE WOOOO

ACxo

Charlie is so brave for speaking up about the homophobia at the school for the younger kids since he’s gone through that himself

tess ^_^

WHAT ABOUT IT DUDE!!!!

Brittney

Take your time Alice. And go on Charlie, honestly to see the progress he has made since volume one to now like go on Charlie Spring 👏👏👏 they need more support like that and as Charlie said as well, it'll help out the younger ones too like he deserves every award out here I wish I could give Charlie a hug I'm so proud of him

M R

Will Charlie go into debate mode?🤞🏻

Merel

Hey Mr Shannon-Barnes, go f*ck yourself 🤗

Ameya

"social groups"... 🤨

arlo🧞

charlie is sooooo brave i’m so proud of him, he is working so hard 💚( that was not the answer i expected from the head teacher.. )

Caro

they don’t have YET*

Brittany Cournoyer

Love this for Charlie, trying to make a difference for those under him since he didn’t have it when he needed it.

Patrick Cirelli

I'm sorry but did that "educator" just refer to the LGBTQ+ community as a social group? I'd like to have a word... 😝

Jalen Bridges

I used to be in a pride club in high school, I was the only guy there but I enjoyed it. I felt safe and could be myself freely. 🏳️‍🌈

Eytan morg

This teacher talks like he is part of te problem/ reason there are no clubs for "social groups" :/

Loveislove

How to show you are part of the problem...

Bluest JM

Wow Alice. I am seething with rage at the headmaster! He's already failed to keep queer kids safe in his school. And oh no, maybe other communities will want to have clubs. The horror. /s

Jo

This is where I'd start rage-crying.

erica streeter

I hate when clubs don’t get approved…I’m sure Mr Ajayi, Mr Farouk and/or Coach Singh would love to help out and it wouldn’t make anyone work overtime if it’s during lunch…

Katie H

Proud of Charlie for standing up for what's right! And Mr Shannon-Barnes, it's not too late to start a pride club

Christie

Then let's start the clubs!

Merel

Thanks for the update about the pages Alice, enjoy your holiday 😊

BEL

Charlie for President!

Mx. Phoenix

...then start those clubs!

Krystyn

The worst argument, showing it’s far time to have clubs! Also “social groups”, some educator needs to be educated. And shoutout to Charlie for his bravery !

Tina

enjoy your cottage core time!

Rosie💕

good luck to anyone trying to go up against our charlie! hope you can enjoy your break, alice!

Molly

So set the precedent then! This "argument" against starting something new irritates me to no end. Stick to your guns, Charlie! I know you can do it! 💪

Chris Mackenzie

Change starts with a precedent. Charlie articulates his views well, and Mr Ajayi saw this as a main quality that led him to recommend Charlie for head boy.

Michelle wright

Charlie is gonna fight for it right? Have a lovely break Alice!

Merel

Very small detail but I love how the "Pride Club: In Conclusion" text is slightly wavy because the paper is bended

Jo S

Don’t you hate people who are not progressive enough to recognise change is needed, especially when they are in a position to activate change! No ambition or empathy!! We need motivated people like Charlie Spring! Go Charlie and fight for what you know is right for those who are following behind you 👍🤗 you are the brave one 🫶🏻🫶🏻

Robert

Charlie finds authority is not backing up his promises from his election (heard that before). I think the Head has underestimated Headboy Charlie who could take independent action!!

Chris Provan

Precedent is meant to be set by leaders! Charlie is doing the right thing and the headmaster needs an open mind. LGBTQIA+ is *not* a “social group”

Ciara

Oh this is great!! Very realistic and what so many come up against!

Nyssa Rawther 🍉

Okay, please don't disappoint us, Headteacher. We need this progress to happen

Liz

Well maybe you should, Headmaster.

Martha Smith

“Social groups” is just a skip and homophobic jump away from “lifestyle choice” 🫠

Evergreen

I remember when students at my college were trying to form a Black student union at a very white school, and admin was concerned about “precedent” because the policy for school clubs was that they couldn’t be “exclusive” - they had to be open for anyone who wanted to join. It was definitely a situation of the letter of the law obscuring the obvious need for safe spaces for marginalized populations. They eventually (like, a few years later) figured out a way to make it happen, but not without a lot of consistent work and pressure by the students. Charlie is just the right person for this!

Ania W.

No excuses, headteacher. Make Charlie's plan come true!

Brenda L

Charlie trying to create and nurture a safe space for younger queer students and antibullying makes me emotional as an older sister because I know he is thinking about Oliver in someway 💕

Luke

I hate this teacher already

Frances

I can’t with the ignorance 🙄

eva cuervo

This is a very absurd excuse that is used very often. Just because there are no other clubs from other social groups does not mean that they are not necessary. Maybe it's time to set the precedent.

NellieSayzBork

Um...EXCUSE ME?! Oooof Charlie, keep fighting! Don't give up!

Harriet Echo

Waaaahhhhh 🤦🏻‍♀️😩 h o m o p h o b i a 😭😭😭😭

Dionne Lakey

Oh dear, Queer as Folk US version flashbacks from the year 2001!

Justin S.

I do not like this teacher!

Claudine Newman

Where’s that homophobia cheese when we need it?

Chloe ♡

go charlie!!! create the safe spaces ignore the teacher! enjoy your trip away alice!

Harriet Echo

The condescending *SIGH* 😬😩😩😩 😖

Beth Yoshida

Oh hell no, Mr. Headteacher sir. That's not how it works. These kids are fighting for their survival and you wanna water it down to a 'social club'. Technically a team can be considered a social club. Get rid of rugby then. No? Yeah, didn't think so. *Glares at Headteacher*

Thea C

Is this dude Mr. Reed?

ruthie.von

Unfortunately these are exactly the vibes where I live, only instead of just people being ignorant and not understanding, there are whole-ass laws prohibiting clubs and spaces like this in schools. I really hope Charlie gets his pride club.

Allison Drevich

My gut reaction to this was "we ride at dawn".

Tyne Swedish

Well mister teacher maybe you should have other groups

Mark Nolan

Firstly, this has flashbacks to the past (and I am 53) and secondly, nice teacher or not, can you imagine getting Stephen Fry in this scene (in th show) with Charlie, OMFG. It would rock. He is such a queer inspiration and a national treasure the UK has shared with the world! )(Plus, he's played a homohpbic king in Red, White and Royal Blue!) Alice, please get SF on standby, I am quite sure he's oblige, as busy as he is!

Jennifer Fell

"That sounds like a you problem"

Loveislove

Here are your buzzwords to reply with Charlie - mental health, physical health, safety and human rights.

Blissnfaith

Another extra curricular activity for a certain 6th former, perhaps?! I feel like Charlie is going to encourage Nick to be the president of the Pride Club, and Nick will find a new place to shine✨🌈✨

Audrina

I hope he agrees to it anyway! We had a LGBTQ+ club when I was in high school (created by some of my friends!) and it was such a good idea. It didn't stop people from being homophobic, of course, but it made it easier to fight off homophobia and created a safe space for queer students, as Charlie said!

Sandra Day

Alice, thank you for voicing the issues and dealing with them in beautiful ways. 💙💛💛💙💙💛

Loveislove

As soon as Charlie indicated in his head boy speech there was a bullying and homophobia problem at the school, it was obvious there was a leadership vacuum and weakness as well. Charlie should not be alone in his strength - hopefully he will receive backup by Mr. Ajayi, Farouk and Ms Singh as well as parent support.

Matthew

“Social Group” is definitely the wrong classification argument… but if you wanted that argument, I’d note we see spaces reserved at times for the sports/rugby teams? And sports teams ARE classified as a social group. Spaces reserved for theater, art, band/orchestra as well. All of which are/may be elective classes that had to get started by a sponsoring teacher for students of a common grouping and have dedicated spaces, activities, and times. Gay straight alliance stuff is no different - not even on the ability to have a taught elective attached if need be.

Jordan

Is it uncommon to have these types of LGBTQ clubs in UK high schools? I live in a liberal place in the US and it’s pretty common so I’m curious!

Lolli98

Charlie is so smart and brave!💙 Like his campaign poster said:"Doesn't tolerate bullshit." Also not from Headteachers!😉 Go, Charlie!💪

Loveislove
>>155978486

That's an awesome idea. I'm not sure what his uni application consists of but if there is an essay component, Nick has been navigating his sexual orientation journey with a lot of grace and positivity.

RyGy

Aliceeee.

RyGy

I hope Charlie fights on this. This would be a hill I would die on. I fought for this at my high school and won. You can too Charlie. Get your friends involved.

Elena

Go, go, go Charlie!!! You can convince him! 🙌🏻🥳

Merel
>>155979571

Maybe it's because Truham is an all-boys school? I feel like they're more likely to hold onto 'traditional values' in a place like that

RyGy

Say you’re part of the problem without actually saying you’re part of the problem.

Steven

Is that Mr. Reed? Cones across as him.

Bob Scardino

There's always an excuse and it usually starts with, "the problem is...."

Scott Whittall

Atta boy Charlie. The head boy who will make a difference. Time to remind him of your traumatic and horrifying bullying experience at Truham under his watch. There's a new sheriff in town and Charlie is not playing.....

Beam Bugge

is he saying he doesn't want queer people to have a safe space 🤨🤨

Katy Boelter-Dimock

Time to change that, and make space for more clubs for “social groups”!

Bees
>>155979571

I grew up in a red state in the 90s and we had a (small but scrappy) gay-straight alliance. To have a club you just had to have a teacher willing to sponsor/let you use their space, so it may be that it's just a lot easier to make a random club in US schools (or some of them?)

David C Witkin

Charlie and his friends are about to learn some hard lessons about institutional cowardice, inertia, and the illusion of integration and social harmony. They may also begin to learn some valuable lessons about the value of collective social activism, bravery, perseverance, questioning authority, and standing up for what you believe in. This is going to be an interesting journey!

MJ

.... how will they ever be if none are allowed to start?! Cheering for Charlie and all the kids who have been through something like this 🫂🫂

syd

charlie spring how i love you

Ariel

Charlie is the perfect person to fight for change, given his own personal experience and ability to express himself - gooooo Charlie🥺🍂 Also-thanks for the update about the pages Alice! Enjoy the time off💕

David C Witkin
>>155978923

I think he's afraid that the next group will be a Black students group, followed by a Muslim one, and a South Asian one, a Feminist one, etc. which is all nothing to be afraid of but rather something to embrace if it happens....

Jennifer Paddock

Deep breath, Charlie. Get that amazing brain churning out reasoned, calm arguments for the case. Someone has to be first! ❤️🧡💛💚💙💜

Matthew
>>155978923

As an educator administrator he should be aware slippery slope arguments are logical fallacies and don’t hold water in a debate

Katrina

Well it’s time to change that and set the precedent and make more space for social groups which by the way that word is just wrong to use!!! I am positive Charlie will fight this and get this club up and running because Charlie never backs down when it’s something he truly believes in! Enjoy your mini break Alice!

Lynn

Now Charlie is really going to shine ✨ I just know!!! Do your stuff young man 💜

Katrina
>>155974246

He’s gonna do such amazing things as head boy I just know it

Dippity_Dip

It’s giving when my high school banned rainbows and we retaliated by making a queer club and then they told us it was okay so long as we didn’t talk about or do anything queer💀

Joni

…social group…? 😑 Oh, Charlie, please explain it to this man, you’ve got this! 😉👍🏻

Tiffany Vu

'Social groups'??? Damn if this didn't take me right back to 2005 😩

Taco

As a teacher who’s not allowed to run a pride club in my very conservative district, this INFLAMES ME.

Button

Teach him Charlie!! Take him to school and TEACH!! It's not a "social group". It's a safe space for the LGBTQ community and allies!! It sets the correct precedent by all means!!

Loveislove

I teach elementary school in Canada and have been the mentor teacher for various gay straight alliances and social justice/be the change groups. They are student led groups and safe spaces but definitely need a teacher backing them up to liason with admin. Although rallying students and families an excellent plan when faced with a cowardly admin.

S S

I'm so so proud of him

Megan Cooper

Cannot wait to see the Paris Squad go to battle on this one. And the teachers

Calfic
>>155989402

I'm so sorry that you went through that. Everyone needs a safe space.

Faye

Have a feeling the Paris squad isn’t gonna let this slide

Calfic

I mean god forbid other groups of students, like say disabled students, have a safe space to connect and talk about struggles, and learn about how to feel pride in that groupp. And I think this teacher knows it isn't just a "social group", and he may not even think of himself as bigoted, BUT he doesn't understand (or care to understand) the unigue challenges that queer kids in a predominately boys school might face. Hoping Charlie will enlist the queer teachers in this, his friends, and maybe even the allies in the rugby team.

Bina

i just know Mr Ajayi, Mr Farouk and Coach Singh are going to help Charlie fight to make this happen!!

JT

Social group!! Not me going to hug 16 yr old me in 1999 when this was the only real term for lgbtqia+ groups, heaven forbid it was called a safe space, or a community! It was all just wrong....big hug Charlie you got this 🫂

Cliff

Since when is setting a precedent necessary a bad thing?

RCM

I've been mulling on this page since it dropped, trying to articulate my feelings/reactions into some semblance of an articulate response. It's hard. 1) I LOVE how the timing shown on this page gives us another solid reminder of how Charlie Spring is thriving as the confident and passionate Head Boy he is...he had planned and prepared SO WELL for this that he had all the space and energy to go and support his boyfriend (last night I think!) leading up to this meeting, rather than feeling a need to continually practice his presentation in front of his mirror (or even to Nick). He KNOWS it is the right thing to do for Truham and he was READY for today❤️‍🩹 2) That first panel is BRILLIANTLY done. It's like viewing social media on paper...showing what happens (or what you miss!) when you only see what you want to see. We have Charlie presenting his case IN PERSON in FRONT of the Headteacher, but the way that Alice drew the proposal literally covering up Charlie's entire face reminded me of the way some people focus on the SEMANTICS rather than the IMPACT on INDIVIDUALS...this panel shows how any type of separation, any disconnect, any barrier can make one (authority figures especially) focus on logistics rather than on the potential for human connection, caring, concern, support, education, and love. He doesn't see or hear Charlie's very valid points here...then, in the second panel we still have an earnest and engaged and very caring Charlie continuing to present his case (GO CHARLIE!) of why a safe space is needed (you're going to change this world one step at a time, Charlie!🤩)...and the very first look we get at the Headteacher shows his eyes closed as if he wishes this would all go away (still with his disengaged listening as he thinks about "precedent" but not the in real life students who will be positively affected by this!). SIGH indeed!!! 3) This page hits very close to home for me. My state passed a law requiring parental signatures for students to "opt-in" to be able to attend any club at school (created to target GSAs). We saw attendance at one school's GSA go from 90 ish down to SEVEN students because of this absurdity. Our school board also JUST removed protections for "sexual orientation, and gender identity or expression" from our student dress code and Equal Opportunity policies. The goal was to scrub "those words" from the handbooks entirely...and THAT is why safe spaces for queer youth are critical...for connection, for support, for education, and more than anything, for a space where you can talk about anything you want with the shared understanding that while you ARE queer (or maybe still questioning), that is also just a PART of you...you are also a writer and a rugby player and an artist and a debater and a cheerleader and a drummer...you get the point. You are an individual who deserves to be fully seen. GSA and queer safe spaces offer a breather, a respite from being the "queer kid walking down the hall" and offer a place where you can just be YOU, ALL of your beautiful YOU...without any stereotypical judgment or expectations. It's like some days you want to loudly represent our queer community and fight the fight, and some days, getting out of bed and walking into school is hard enough, and you only want to do something simple like paint a picture with safe friends...GSAs/safe spaces offer room for a range of both of these, AND, you can also do all the queer education and service projects and outreach and anti-bullying campaigns you want, together! Breathe in, breathe out, Charlie...you've got this🫶🌈

Dippity_Dip
>>155989402

Aw thanks🥲 but I’ve lived in the US Deep South my whole life I’m truly so used to it💀

Merel
>>156002755

I've said this before but I really love your comments! You're so great at analysing the pages that it makes me look at them in a whole new way.

Calfic

And a shoutout to those US folks dealing with this issue whether as a student, or teacher, especially now.

Cliff

I’m reminded of when Rebecca Sugar went to the executives at Cartoon Network asking to show a same-sex wedding in “Steven Universe.” When she was told that if they let her show have one, all the shows would want one, she responded “and what would be wrong with that?”

Philippe Parvais

“We don’t have any social groups so we can’t add one” is such a principal thing to say

Rose Diamond10
>>156002755

GSA= Gay Straight Alliance, powerful school club primarily found in the US and Canada Excellent commentary as always RCM. Particularly in the current political climate of the United States, these clubs and safe spaces are more important than ever before. Those of us in the US who are feeling overwhelmed and hopeless, your local School Board candidates are the key to affecting real change in your community. Demand candidates that will stand up for student rights, campaign for them, and support them.

Beam Bugge
>>156002755

Jesus Christ your school sounds ridiculous! sounds like they could really use a Charlie...

Beam Bugge
>>155989402

"you can have a club but you can never talk about it or do any of the things that the club actually stands for" what kind of rule even is that 😭😭

Neenie
>>155989402

They banned RAINBOWS??? Sorry, weather, no rain and sun allowed

Neenie
>>155985983

I bet this was planned a while ago, and this is set in the UK, but it hits real hard as a US citizen this November

Neenie
>>155977203

Elle doesn’t even go there anymore but gets her whole insta following to descend upon the school board meeting

Neenie
>>155975643

I mean the traditional gay straight alliance is literally for everyone!

Neenie

This reminds me of when my high school admins dismantled the Political Awareness Club and there were coincidentally many new attendees at knitting club

Neenie

I wonder how much of the rugby team will still support Charlie now that he has quit

Dippity_Dip
>>155989402

Basically what happened was it was 2020 and we were all masking at school, but also it was the year of the Biden-trump election race so a bunch of ppl in my southern ass town got Trump masks to wear to school and would only wear masks if they had trump on them. Political memorabilia wasn’t allowed per our school rules going back like forever, so some students like myself raised concerns ab the masks. In retaliation the parents of the kids with the trump masks were like “well the fags get to wear their political rainbow masks so I’ll pull my funding of the football and baseball programs if you ban my kids’ trump mask without banning the gay shit” and so our school board banned all political stuff including rainbows but the staff besides the liberal teachers didn’t crack down on anything besides the rainbow stuff💀 Idk if the rule is still in place bc it happened my senior year, but yeah it was wiiiild

Kat

It might be time to set a precedent then……

Beam Bugge
>>155989402

sounds about south (I'm so sorry you - and many other queer students - had to deal with that!)

Mark B

Where is Governor Tim Walz, the man who campaigned on the fact that he was unafraid to sponsor the West Mankato High School GSA , when they need him at Truham?

Dippity_Dip
>>155989402

Honestly the club being allowed in the first place was more than I ever thought we’d get so hopefully it’s thriving a bit more in the years since I’ve left! queer southerners are pretty resilient if I say so myself :)

Murgy

Well, I think there are multiple teachers who would happily offer a class room, let alone supervise the weekly meetup. And I'm reasonably sure Ms Singh will verbally eviscerate the head if he keeps standing in the way because it would "set a precedent" for a club for a "social group." The school does need to be more welcoming to LGBT+ student, and sometimes that means taking an unprecedented step, like providing a safe space for them. I look forward to Charlie making an impassioned rebuttal, or Ms Singh's verbal evisceration.

Sean Winnie

"Social groups"...he makes it sound like Bronies or something.

Laura Humber

I'd be disgusted with myself if I was the headteacher of Truham, having to be told how to properly protect and nurture students by a 16 year old with three times more emotional intelligence! He should be ashamed! Charlie has found his confidence by standing up for others, he's amazing 🥹

Lolli98
>>156019513

Well, that 's the problem with old, white men. They are never disgusted by themselves.🙄

Lolli98
>>156013601

All of them or at least Sai, Christian and Otis. Because they realised what a great person Charlie is.🙂

Andrew Gillies

Don't ask for permission, do it and ask for forgiveness

ucfnurse

I can’t wait to see how this plays out!!!☺️😊🙌🆒💖❣️🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🌈🌞🌻🌼🌟✌️🕊️☮️

Rudolf Burggraaf

Maybe interesting to know is that in many school here in The Netherlands there are GSA-student groups which stands for Gender and Sexuality Alliance (formerly known as as Gay-Straight-alliance) If anyone wants more info… send me a message and I’ll put you in contact with the GSA at the (secondary) school where I teach (physics).

Sarah Duzynski
>>156018183

Tim Walz is my governor in Minnesota. Truham definitely could use his support for the Pride Club.

RyGy

Is Hulking (AKA Nick haha) going to come in and save the day?

David C Witkin
>>156019513

Sometimes we are. But change and growth and self-awareness offer a way out of that particular cage.

Merel
>>156026973

I'm also Dutch but I sadly never had anything like that at my school, they were quite conservative

Jasmin Hernandez

“WELL WHY DONT WE MAKE THOSE GROUPS AND START HERE?! “😭 Alice ur so amazing 🖤thanks for creating this universe we can all enjoy!! Wish nothing but the best for u!

Lolli98
>>156019513

I hope you know I mean a certain (probably majority) group of old, white men. Of course I know there are exceptions.😉💛

SoraNoRyu

Ah yes, the age old problem... next thing you know, there'll be a PoC club and a disability club and a feminist club and then they'll get all brave and demand equal rights and functioning anti-discrimination measures and just think of how much work that would be! I mean, I can understand that it's hard coming to terms with how unfair the current structure is and how much needs to change; it can be overwhelming, especially if you never had to do this much work before in your career. But that's also kind of the amount of work you get from putting it off and closing your eyes for so long, so... get started. Take that first step.

Nils

Am I a bad person if I say I can see both sides? Yes Charlie's right the queer kids need a safe space, but the headmaster is equally right that once you allow clubs which are for a specific social group for good reasons, you'll have to offer them for bad reasons as well.

Nils
>>156066269

This clubs would be okay. But would you be so flippand if someone would demand an religious extremists club at school? Those would also have to be approve.

ChristinaP

everyone will support him, which is also why he was elected. he is quite popular ♥️

Claudine
>>156026973

I'm Dutch, but we never had this at school. Mind you, my school years have been over for 25 years and we had nothing regarding LGBTQ+ at school back then. I didn't even know at that time what bisexuality was, it was never talked about. So glad things has changed.

Bees
>>156066269

Not necessarily. I'm not as familiar with UK law but in the US and in other countries there are a variety of reasons why they would be different. Chief among them would be overt threat of harm. If no one is being threatened (the key here is overt, not the "gay people exist and that 'threatens' my values" sentiment). A group that wanted to meet and pray or study a particular faith would be just fine. "Extremist," however, usually implies some wish to harm another group. The key here is that we are dividing "allowed" and "not allowed" not on the basis of *what* the group is but on how that group interacts with the wider student population. There is no reason everything would have to be approved, regardless of impact. (In countries with separation of church and state there are also a host of other arguments.)

Evergreen
>>156069002

This is a common “what if” that gets put out there in these situations, but it’s an incomplete argument that creates false equivalency. Providing safe spaces for people who have historically been marginalized for parts of their identity that they have no control over (e.g. race, gender, sexuality, ethnicity, ability) is very different than making a “white club” or a “straight club,” since these groups are inherently safe and celebrated everywhere they go. Needing spaces where you are safe to simply exist (“good reasons”) is different than wanting space where you can be safe from judgment or challenge (“bad reasons”). That’s my take on it anyway, and it’s where a lot of institutions land once they’re forced to think about it!

Kim

Excuse my unfamiliarity with the UK schooling system, but aren't all clubs, organizations, sports etc inherently social?

Sarah
>>156088264

He’s using “social group” as coded language for minority group. As in he’s calling queer people a “social group” and he doesn’t want to allow a club based around a “social group” to exist. If he lets the gay people have one who knows who’ll want one next!! 🙃😒

Kim
>>156088264

Oh my. My brain just shook. Thank you! I live in a part of the US where the language is a bit more overt. "Religious freedom" "parental choice" "lifestyle choices" 🤮

Nils
>>156069002

You have conviently left out religion from your list of examples. They are a also marginalized group so there is no need for your fallacy of examples. As a marginalized group they would be entitled to their own social club. And I am happy to be told wrong but Religion does have a tendency to get very ugly.

Evergreen
>>156069002

Not sure why you’ve chosen to use the phrase “no need for your fallacy of examples” here, but I’ll try to respond politely anyway. You’re right that I left off religion, which was an oversight. As someone who worked in a campus office that was responsible for approving clubs, I can say that religious groups are more challenging, but they can usually be approved. Usually in the club approval application you would have to confirm that you would not be engaging in hate speech or encouraging practices that could harm or bully others, and you would be held accountable to that commitment by admin. But yes, when it comes to religion, most campuses/schools would not limit their approval only to religions that are marginalized by the dominant culture. From here, we get into lots of details that go into approval and decision-making, but the point is that you really don’t have to approve the “bad” groups if you approve the “good” groups. Campuses deal with this all the time and navigate the issue very well if admin is willing to consider nuance. There are standard practices for dealing with this type of issue if you want to look into them.

Nils
>>156069002

The fallacy being the part you deliberately chose to use "white club” or “straight club" as your examples as undesirable clubs while omitting religion. The thing about religion is that overt hate speech is one thing, but there is a lower level that is harder to police and which still is suitable to create a hostile environment. Especially minority religions more often than not have a tendency to create an unwelcome environment as those who would join this club tend to be more zealous about their religion. Thats why, as I said, I can understand why the headmaster is reluctant to approve.

Evergreen
>>156069002

You’re making a lot of assumptions about me, Nils. I didn’t “deliberately” omit religion for the sake of an argument. As I said before, it was an oversight, which I thought I addressed in my reply. You didn’t mention religion in your original comment, so I had no idea that was the issue you were having. As for religious groups, they can indeed be a thorny issue that some schools navigate better than others. My goal wasn’t to win an argument, but to reassure you that Charlie doesn’t have to let this issue be a limitation for him. If you were trying to win an argument that the Pride club shouldn’t be allowed because it will make way for hate groups, I really don’t know what to say. You’re entitled to that opinion. I have a different opinion as someone who has worked in this field and has seen the issue navigated successfully many times. I’m honestly sorry I replied to your original comment, because I wasn’t looking for an argument or to be accused of not arguing in good faith, here of all places.

Evergreen
>>156069002

I might have just realized why this turned into an argument. I actually had (incorrectly) read your original comment as a question and not a statement, and I thought you were asking if this could be the line admin would take against Charlie’s idea. The purpose of my initial reply was to reassure you that many institutions try to make this argument as a way to dissuade Pride groups, but it doesn’t usually succeed. I do disagree with your statement, but I would have approached my disagreement in a more friendly way if I knew I wasn’t just talking about faceless admins. I’m sorry that I worded my reply the way I did. I do still feel that it was unfair of you to assume I was omitting things “conveniently” and “deliberately”, though. That felt like an attack on my character, and we don’t know each other at all. Maybe we can start again?

Nils
>>156069002

Happy to. The way your initial response was phrased was, what let to my fallacy comment, cause from my POV it was a fallacy, you appeared to riddicule my statement with your expamples of "straight" or "white" clubs while again from POV omitting religion who can claim the same protection needs as queer kids but will be the ones most likely to attack the same kids.

Michelle Glegg
>>156069002

I don’t think you are a bad person if you can see both sides. I see both sides too but I think the teacher needs to think about it more and get more educated instead of just revising it in a few months

Caitlin
>>156069002

I can see both sides too, especially from a resourcing POV. Teachers in the UK have to already do so much. Not sure if it's different for Grammar schools but state schools just don't get enough funding and staffing, it's unfair that it has impact on kids like in this instance ☹️

Evergreen
>>156069002

Oh! Those two examples I gave weren't intended to ridicule you at all! They are actual examples from the school where I worked. The religious groups at that school were super chill (which is why I forgot to mention them), but there were definitely random kids who came to admin and said, "If it's OK for there to be a gay club, then we want to have a straight club" and "If the Black kids can be exclusionary and not allow white kids to join the Black Student Union, then we should be allowed to have a whites-only club." Their arguments didn't succeed because they ignored the issue of privilege, so they weren't allowed to start those clubs. That's what I thought you were concerned about when you mentioned bad reasons for starting a club, because it's totally real! I wanted to reassure you that Charlie would probably succeed if that was the line of reasoning the principal chose to take. But in the next page the principal took a different stance anyway - he chose the "we don't have the resources to do this for everyone" stance. Another common one! Glad we're finally understanding each other, even if we don't entirely agree. I'm OK with not agreeing as long as we know where each other are coming from!

SoraNoRyu
>>156066269

An extremist club of any kind should not be approved, but I see nothingwrong with regigious interest group, if there isn't already a specific class/subject for your religion anyways. Your comment makes it sound like feminism, disability rights and pride are on the same level as extremism, which I find very... worrying.

Tielle

As someone who used to fight the American HS system for student rights as a student...I smell a petition coming

Tielle
>>156066269

Define religious extremist club? I currently work at a university Campus in New York City. We have clubs for Christians, Muslims, and we have a Young Republican club (which was surprising because our school is extremely liberal) it still was approved. So I agree with the depiction of the teacher's hesistation, because that was our hesistation with the young republicans club however we approved it because we weren't under the false assumption that they were organizing to do bad things or promote their ideals, more that they wanted to find support for and with each other at a school that challenges their views on the daily.

Elsie 3
>>156069002

@Nils and @Evergreen- kudos to you both for staying in the convo and hearing each other out. Impressed and grateful to see an example of disagreeing, misunderstanding, reflecting, trying again. Here’s to more of that in this world.

Lissie

*sighs* Queer Kids need all the support and his answer is unacceptable! I think Charlie is gonna make this happen. They growth of Charlie has been so beautiful. Watching him fight for his younger self and others makes me happy.