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D&D Court: Goats, Rogues, and Shark Farts (Patreon)

Published:
2021-10-01 05:50:15
Imported:
2026-06
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NOTE: This week's Hearthside Chat Short Rest will be posted tomorrow!

AD-FREE EPISODE FOR $5+ PATRONS!

Dungeon Court is back in session! Join Supreme Crit Justices Murphy, Axford, and Tanner, as well the Valiant Bailiff Hurwitz, as we try your cases. Support us at Patreon.com/Naddpod to get access to the after-show and a bunch of other Naddpod content!

CREDITS:

Dungeon Court Theme Song by Sam Weiller

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Comments

MacKenzie Tobias

Omg this brings back so many funny memories of my dog 😂🥰

MacKenzie Tobias

My pug and pekingese both noisy fart! Sometimes they’re silent, sometimes they’re high-pitched squeaks, sometimes they’re full-blown rips.

Nick Lerche

I love how fired up Jake gets about the definition of Hedge.

Dr. Eggman

My dog has audibly farted herself awake

Inedible Trout

Man, Murph called it. People REALLY did not like the rogue ruling.

Mike Fletcher

Hedges are tall! Sametc is correct

Sergey J. van Daalen

Hahaha. You cán hear a dog fart. Just the sound of air going through a drinking straw. 🤣. And the f’n smell afterwards.

Jason Sherman

I think hiding in the hedge multiple times is legit unless RAW is specifically against it. When I play shooter games in the midst of the fight and the mind games I regularly fall for an enemy “running away” when they really just sit behind cover for a moment, I divert my attention to the main point, and then they shoot me from behind. A high hide roll vs a low perception shows that their deft and trickery fooled the other character that got psyched out, lacked experience, and was fooled.

aiyana graham art

I feel like murph took a loooooot of liberties with the rogue one. regardless of the definition of a hedge, rulings like "any intelligent creature would know blank" is irrelevant if they don't do an intelligence check. they know that? do an intelligence check. they would see that? do a perception check. like at a certain point it doesn't matter how crunchy the question is if we're not using the rules. assuming that the DM did these checks but not assuming that the layout allowed for the player to reasonably hide behind the hedge doesn't really make any sense. like they definitely should've just gone with the DM's ruling especially because the DM is allowed to say that you can't do that, but it's super cheap to say so after the rogue has already rolled. and they're really not going off of what the case says. he's like "well this *could've* happened" but that doesn't matter because it's not what the case says. IMO it's thrown out for lack of info or ruling w the rogue. also I don't think murph would rule the same today

Tannictor

I just have to say this, as far as dogs go they do make sounds, my mom's dog a big mastif pitbull mix is the gassiest dog she burps hiccups and farts constantly, her farts aren't real loud though it's an squeek that is easy to think was a chair squeeking or your shoe.

Hapyy

I had a Boston terrier, definitely audibly farted. I currently have a poodle, also audibly farts, especially when going up stairs. Dog farting is situational.

AgedGouda

But he ruled that they didn’t die while polymorphed? So I think he was right, why is he being punished? Sry to necro this discussion, I’m relistening to old episodes.

Oscar the Salad Czar

The problem with that is that the character didn't move from that spot. The question is wether or not they would have advantage, and they shouldn't because they've given their position away. For reference bg3 has a mechanic where if the rogue attacks from a distance they leave a ghost position for where the enemy thinks they are, nudging you to move.

Scruggzi

My tortoise farts super loud despite also having a cloaca. It's unsettling.

Zane Ferrum

either way that rogue could just also use steady aim feature from their class to get advantage making the arguement generally pointless if he wants to stay in the same spot he uses that if he moves he rehides rogues have more than 1 way to setoff sneak attack

CornCobb

Woooo and to think I was gonna have to wait for some of the best content!

Arwyn Robinson

Dungeon court are the episodes that my husband and I have agreement that we listen together and it kills me when it gets posted and I have to wait. 😭😭😭

McKinley Case

Mid way through work and this drops - hell yeah!

Richard Robertson

I think for the rogue case, it could come down to what else happened in the round. Was the person the rogue attacking hit by other people? Because it’s hard to believe someone would be staring at a bush waiting for a rogue if they were fireballed since the last time the rogue attacked, especially if everyone else is in plain sight.

Bonky Fiasco

My dog definitely farts, and in fact gets scared if the fart makes a noise.

Nicolas P.

Appreciate the ruling and expect an update soon

Brooke

Would love y’all to come to Richmond, Va if y’all are looking at where to do live shows!

Ken

I would personally say that "hedge" does not refer to the size of the plant, but rather the grooming. i.e. a shrub that is well trimmed is a hedge.

Garga Lenoir

One aspect that wasn't discussed about the rogue is that the "hide" action is an abstraction for a lot of things. It means how stealthy the rogue is going to his hiding place, his choice of hiding place (ie not a shitty small bush), possibly feinting and using the chaos of combat to confuse their opponents. With a 30, which is essentially a supernatural level success, the rogue didn't just plop back down at the exact spot behind a shitty bush.

Emilie Jane

My old family dog also did this. Except she would get scared and then offended if you happened to notice.

Adrienne C

Thanks To this episode I now have the song “Sheep go to Heaven Goats go to hell” by the band Cake stuck in my head 🐐

owen

You should get the rules lawyer himself Brennan Lee Mulligan on one of these D&D court

HalfLighter

Murph. You are valid and I respect you, but if you have to justify an argument by making up multiple hypothetical situations with completely different details, then it is not a good argument.

HalfLighter

RAW the Rogue always gets advantage against a creature that they have successfully hidden from. Like Jake said, just because you know where an attack is coming from doesn’t mean you know when it’s coming. If you want to make the argument that the gnolls are paying such close attention to this hedge that attacks from it can’t get advantage then it is a reasonable counter argument that everyone else should get advantage because it means they’re clearly paying too much attention to this hedge. If the DM wanted to punish the player for hiding in the same place he should have had the Gnolls go behind the hedge to flush out the rogue or cast a spell in that area. If a DM ignored the rules for the sole purpose of stealing advantage from me, I would also get pretty pissed.

Abagayle Witzgall

Dogs’ farts definitely make noise. My dog often farts going up the stairs and there is a little “toot” on each step.

Avogobble

Shark dad here, I demand a retrial. I present into evidence exhibit A, a photo of my sons mini. https://imgur.com/a/ZCev3mR As per the established precedent of no cheeks no squeaks I think it’s clear there is some cheeks there. It’s established law that even though his cheeks are small Bev he still has an ass.

Ted Orbach

I can confirm I have, on rare occasion, heard a dog fart. It is exceedingly rare, but it is like a small "toot".

David Hamet

Love that we got the full intro this time!

Brenton

Had to weigh in. I had a dog that could (as Murph called it) ~rip ass~ like a big ass fart and it smelt horrible. A beautiful chunky lab

Jordan Prince

So I'm not sure if this is how it works but it just kinda seems right in my head, if the rogue attacks from hiding and then hides again as a bonus action on the SAME turn, wouldn't the gnolls actually NOT know where he was? Isn't that kind of the point of attacking from hiding and then hiding again?

Rachael

Would be thrilled if you guys did a live show in Minneapolis/St. Paul!! This show was such an inspiration in me starting to DM, and seeing you guys love would be super cool!

Anthony Ferguson

Page 195, PHB, regarding unseen attackers, "If you are hidden - both unseen and unheard - when you make an attack, you give away your LOCATION when your attack hits or misses." Its established that a rogue would need to at least move to another location before hiding. However, as was said in the episode, Steady Aim would have been the appropriate alternative. The Skulker feat from the PHB even has the benefit of "When you are hidden from a creature and miss it with a ranged weapon attack, making the attack doesn't reveal your position". Ruling that the rogue could repeatedly hide in the same spot makes things like that obsolete.

Lindsay R

I heard my dog fart for the first time the other day! No cheeks needed, y’all!

Brendan R Colquitt

Tall shrubs that are close together is a hedge used for shade and privacy so a hedge is specifically something used to obscure view. The dm probably meant a shrub

Brendan R Colquitt

So I sent something to the PO box a while ago and I haven't heard anything. Is there a way to contact and ask if they got it?

Jared Gabbard

I want the court to know that my dog Baggins, a Shepard chow mix, has very audible and stinky farts…. #dogsaudiblyfart

JigMink

My lab hound mix also audibly farts, but it's the ones I don't hear that stink the worst...

Bonky Fiasco

I really love that half of these comments are about dog farts. I feel seen.

Omar Mtz

I love the opening

Jenna

no my dog def farts - I think it’s the butthole — like lips whistling sort of

TacoLord

my little chihuahua rips loud farts, just saying #dogsaudiblyfart

Ellie Smith

My dog used to walk up the stairs in front of me and loudly fart each step of the way

fangurley

I just want to mention that snakes have really loud farts and it’s wild.

Dorothy Cooper

Jake is really in the right and Murph's argument is REALLY being unreasonably DM biased with the rogue case. The rule about giving away your location should be covered by the hide action after the attack, and I think saying the player ended the session is assuming that one party is responsible for escalating conflict. 10000% Jake was in the right going hard for the rogue and I'd love to see an episode which pushed Murph as hard on his DM bias as Lou got pushed on his support for players (also I'm saying this as a perma-DM).

Dorothy Cooper

This doesn't account for the character taking the hide action again though. They had hidden, attacked, and hid again because their attack had alerted people. The Skulker feat would mean that on a missed attack the second hide action would be unnecessary, freeing up the bonus action to be used for something else.

Queue

Every time I listen to these I just imagine listening to an episode of NADDPOD where Murph makes a rules call and the crew just argue with his call for 30+ minutes. It's crazy and hilarious to me.

tommy

#TeamHedge

Mortimer Lunch

Jake is 100% correct here. The Whack-A-Mole point is what wins the argument.

Cosmicraymond

It's certainly weird that the hide action doesn't really cover situations after attack in that ability in and of itself, but isn't there a specific ability base o subclass in the rogue that allows your position not to be disclosed after an attack? I know the Skulker feat covers this kind of situation, but I do agree with the idea that the hide action should either be revised to cover this with the stealth role for the hide action or another stealth check just to duck down.

Cliff

This is a small thing, but I appreciate that Murph put the full Intro song back in. Thank you!

Gotteswaise

To make Emily's law-dodging polymorph dream a reality, make sure the contract reads "I, Moonshine, a Crick-Elf" and then true polymorph, or even reincarnate into a different form, such as human, dragonborn with a few missing scales, or a halfling, and then that could potentially be a way to get our of a contract, but not the spell itself However! listening to the discussion gave me an idea of: What if a Wizard sells his soul to a devil, then became a lich. Stores the soul in a phylactery or soul jar and locks it up with wards and such in an offshore account that doesn't extradite to the Nine Hells. "Sorry, buddy, can't have my soul, I don't have it either".

Cliff

I am kind of surprised how lopsided the rogue stealth case is in the comments. I was on Jake’s side at first and considering RAW but I think their discussion shifted my view based on the application of Rule Zero. If you trust and respect the effort the DM in your campaign, by virtue of the consistency and culmination of that trust, PCs should respect the final decision of the DM, specifically if it is something small with the scope of game (of course, PC should still be allowed to make their argument). This doesnt mean DM can’t be wrong, but it becomes that question of “is this worth ruining our collective fun over or diminishing the momentum of the game?” It might even make the game more fun to challenge the PCs to use the environment more creatively.

Richard Morales

I say that a rogue that is hidden then attacks and hides again successful means that the enemy has no idea where the arrow came from. They would then have to roll in order to find where it came from.

Richard Morales

My thoughts exactly! Many movie scenes of people yelling where did that come from.

Adah Kinzer

The dragonborn case reminds me of Rainbow Fish

Holly Burley

Hate to go against the honorable supreme crit but my dog farts frequently and VERY audibly. I do tell him he has cute butt cheeks all the time though…

Riley Deveau

Straight up, my dog RIPS ass loud.

Cody Loll

There’s a few things that kind of irk me about the hedge rogue. I also thought of a hedge as long and taller. And i think it’s annoying for the rogue if they hid and then did their attack the next round only for the dm to say they weren’t hidden. Then why let them hide without telling them? I have more but my break is almost over but the last thing I’ll say is everyone on the pod thought it was bad of the rogue to make the session end cause of this conflict but we have no idea the history between this rogue and the dm. Some dm’s are very strict on rogues and if they have been hard on them and not let them get very many sneak attacks then I could see that being a breaking point for a player because that’s the one cool thing about being a rogue. So not getting to do it very often would suck.

Stephen Jay

I also have to weigh in here: my huskies (Hex and Cinder) both make very human-like farts 😂 No cheeks, definitely squeaks! To the point where my fiancé and I sometimes think it was one of us!

Mak

See for the Rogue one I feel like I’d be like “ok so the bad guys just saw you shoot. If you want to hide in the same spot, I need a balance.” I’d either make the rogue make a deception check to trick the baddies to look the other way then hide or do hide with disadvantage for essentially the same reason.

evans-endeavors

The Devil contract tho? I feel like it would be super in line for a Devil to consider reaching 0 hp while polymorphed as a “death” that feels just tricky and twisted enough for a Devil contract imo. Fun to think about nevertheless!

Dana A

i'm going to a corn maze in the next couple weeks, i'll have to bring some long straws with me 😂 oh to see inside emily's brain 😂

Jess Little

Guys, language of polymorph. C'mon now. Especially you, Murph, rules man that you are. "The transformation lasts for the Duration, or until the target drops to 0 Hit Points or dies. The new form can be any beast whose Challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a Challenge rating). The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its Alignment and Personality. The target assumes the Hit Points of its new form. When it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of Hit Points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 Hit Points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce the creature's normal form to 0 Hit Points, it isn't knocked Unconscious." It works like wild shape. It also says "drops to 0 hit points OR dies," which implies that if you drop to 0 hit points while polymorphed, you don't die. Devil's still have to follow rules. That's kind of their thing. We all know about Johnny and his shiny fiddle made of gold. As punishment, Murph must trade souls with a city pigeon.

Whitney Peterson

Dogs absolutely can fart audibly. And when they do they are often surprised by the noise which is hilarious and endearing, until you smell it

Cas Marie

So happy that my case got heard!! I will let my Dragonborn player know so she can schedule her many many dermatologist appointments.

Peter Mundell

Can't believe I'm coming to comment before I've even finished listening to the full episode, but just wanted to give my two cents on the rogue/hide situation: As someone who has played a high level rogue in a combat-heavy, number-crunchy game, we did implement the "You can't hide in the same place twice" rule. The enemy has seen you, they know where you are. You might be able to argue that you could go to the other end of the hedge/wall/fence/etc. and fire from there, so you're now firing from a new position and hence, gaining the surprise on them. But it's not surprising to get shot at from the same location twice. Of course, lots of other cool ways for a rogue to get sneak attack anyways! You want to work with your allies anyways, so fire at the enemies that your friends are in melee with. I also went with the fun option of taking Wizard Initiate to grab Find Familiar so I could get the help action each round & get that sweet sneak attack damage. And as much as I love to "No think just big damage" my way through games sometimes, rogues are supposed to be intelligent and cunning (typically), so the idea is to get creative with your hiding and figuring out smart, sneaky ways to get that sneak attack rather than doing the same thing every round. EDIT TO ADD: Also, can't forget Reliable Talent at Rogue 11! So, assuming that you've put all your points into Dex by that point for +5, and you probably have expertise in Stealth, that means you're always rolling a minimum of 23 for your Stealth rolls, so it just gets tiring for everyone. I rule in favour of the DM and telling the rogue to find cool new hiding spots instead of just tall hedges

Kat Camille

I just want to say that listening to d&d court I do want to comment that my dog audibly farts. Yes it is horrible, yes it smells bad, but he audibly farts. Audible farts do exist for dogs. 😂

Lauren Listing

I have a Saint Bernard who audibly farts to get my attention if he wants a bite of my food

Jessica Petra

Adding to the discord, I had a jack russel/puggle mix that would fart loudly and it would scare her.

Geraint

Yes, they kept the whole song this time 😍 I listen to it multiple times, it's so good

Mike

My dog’s farts are loud and usually scares herself with them.

Torsten Johnson

Totally agree! You the DM don’t have to say “oh you all died”—have the devil come use twisted logic and make an interesting new plot twist!

Torsten Johnson

Is yours the devil and the goats case? Cause I think it could be fun to have the devil come try to take their souls, claiming they “died.” This way you, the DM, aren’t taking a position, but letting a subjective NPC make the claim, and twisting logic like that is totally something a devil might do!

James Lloyd

I love how Emily thinks that scientists are rich enough to buy their parents houses. I wish that was true. I might not be the most famous of scientists, but my salary isn't terrible these days but I'm still far from that level.

Garrett Morrow

Hedges are obviously tall enough to hide behind. If the DM said the Gnolls were keeping an eye on the Rogue, but didn’t roll a 30 Perception, then the Rogue is hidden. Right?

Matt Kilsby

I have to agree with Jake and Emily about hedges, they're big enough that if you see someone hide in one you wouldn't necessarily expect them to stay where they are - they could easily be moving somewhere else so the fact that they shoot from the same spot is arguably as surprising as them moving. The whack-a-mole defence is pretty airtight imo

Tonks

Dogs can fart. My dogs lets gross ones out and they are loud! I have a German Short Hair and A Black Lab Mix. Both have cleared rooms auditorilly and with stench

Alexander Fisher

Agreed and it does not come up enough that the PC hit a 30 which is a damn fine roll

Christine Eyler

You ABSOLUTELY can hear a dog fart, mine does it all the time 😂

Rachel

nothing has shocked me less than both emily and caldwell googling if sharks fart at the same time

Bandanno

The fart sound isn't from the cheeks 😂 I have a large labrador and he audibly farts all the time.

Those who love and give where they can

Sonoran coral snakes have an anus-like hole called a cloaca that can suck in air and then expel it with a popping noise to ward off predators. Yup, that's a fart. -Vox, Oct 19, 2018 Cloacas can flap the breeze my dudes

Sametc

I too am getting fired up about hedge-gate. PERSONALLY, I reckon if you moved 5 ft along the hedge then the 30 stealth check can be honoured but if did not move AT ALL, I can see the DM logic. I rest my case!

Sametc

Also, my dog ABSOLUTELY farts!

Andrew

The player was an asshole. But the rules don’t say anything about having to move to a new place to hide, so that ruling by the dm would be homebrew, and should have been stated to the players beforehand. It’s also a hack “ruling form on high” solution. Give the player disadvantage and the gnolls advantage, or scaling penalties/bonuses to stealth/perception for each turn they don’t move and try to hide. But also…Ending the session over a single attack roll? Come on.

LeaHiHi

With the hedge case the player rolled a 30, so the player could have seemed to have moved from the enemies perspective, thus they wouldn't know where the player was. Although it could be argued that you would need an additional deception check for that. Although the player does sound like a poor player, so I don't know if they should get the ruling even if they are in the right.

GREYFOX!!!!!

7 minutes in and the crew is arguing about the ship of Theseus! Going to be good ep

Gumbercules

Regarding the rogue issue, I think the player is in the right. What my DM has ruled in the past, to make it work regarding the story, is that all other action happening in the round is more pertinent to the enemy's attention than the rogue's presence. So even when a rogue is next to the enemy stabbing them in the back, when that rogue rolls a 20+ stealth afterward, it's that the enemy is so focused on the other attackers that they don't realize the rogue is next to them.

Victoria Shotts

Totally with you and Jake on this one!! If you're expending a bonus action to hide, you're using your mechanics and action economy properly. It seems unfair to have that held against you, especially last second without providing proper reasoning. Perhaps the Knolls should have had an easier time finding them? But whose to say that the rogue was even seen the first time they shot!

D'ran Dana

Yesssss come to Portland Oregon!!!

Shanna Mandell

I am so glad that they gave credit to the kids for being so clever about sharks farting, or not farting in this case.

Carbonostin

I raised the no cheeks no squeaks to the butthole precedent, as I have heard many a dog fart, hell I have even heard horse farts before. No cheeks no squeaks is flawed and bunk and that precedent needs to be overruled.

Pamela Gray

I hear my dog fart aaaaaall the time. Most of her farts are very loud

JorgeAgoias

The return of the 6 hour into rofl

Penny Garbo

Never thought I'd comment about my dogs farts but here it is. My dog farts SOO loud. Not only does he not have butt cheeks he is also very fluffy, yet his farts are loud as hell.

Eli McCool

My dog definitely farts audibly

Bunnay Ch33ks

My old dog's fart were very stinky and very squeaky

Leah S.

No one tell them about the hexblood lineage.

Anthony J. Marotta

I can, for sure, hear my dog fart. He’s a little thick boy, so he probably has some cheeks

Greg Lohman (tsarducci)

MURPH. The rogue had 30 feet of movement to use.. if the issue is they needed to have moved, "ok I moved 5 feet to the right" resolves it. Or if there was ANY OTHER COVER within 30 feet, the dm was being a doof.

Emily C

So, it's unclear from the original question, but RAW if you attack you lose your hidden status, and the questioner did say they already shot from the hedge. So maybe the player hid, then shot, then was going to try and shoot again before hiding again? In that case they wouldn't be hidden. But if that's not the case I'd assume you could practically hide behind a shadow with a 30 stealth check.

Michael Coggins

I hope heartedly disagree with Murph and Caldwell's arguments on the repeated Hide ruling. The writing of the Hiding rule states only an ACTIVE perception (EG the singular target he is shooting using their action to make a perception check) can discern your location unless you shout something. If you cannot see the person shooting you, they get advantage, and hiding behind anything no matter how many times in succession, makes you unable to see that person, hiding extends that until a shot is fired or sound is made. Hide is 90% a rogue utility, and they need all the help they can get. Use rules as boring/wrong&punishing for your full casters or your min maxed Battle Master fighters, not your poor roguey bois. PS love everyone that read this opinion of mine, regardless of if you agree or not! Lol.

Jedediah A DeGray

I specifically told my players at the beginning of our campaign that you if you want to continue to get the bonus from Hide you need to hide in a new spot unless you didn't attack or do something obvious

Jacob

Fair, but the way the question was written it sounds like the DM sprung it on the player in the moment (we only have so much to go off of). If I was running that combat I would probably say "okay the gnolls have now seen you fire twice from that position - move or you don't get advantage next turn" something like that. Without more forewarning, you are going against the rules as written and that doesn't seem fair to the player. All that said I think as a rogue moving around is more fun, it's just with the information given the DM is incorrect about the nature of Hide.

Reagan Nettles

Anybody else sort of picture the crit justice’s as evil wizards following the punishment they come up with?

MLEbug

I have 100% heard my dog fart!

Oliver Jasper

I'd like to weigh in. My dog audibly farts every morning when he stretches after waking up. Not a chonky boy either. Rather lean

Melon Bread

You reveal your position when you attack with a ranged weapon, unless you have the Skulker feat.

Melon Bread

There's a couple ways the DM could have dealt with this--they could have had one of the knolls hold an action to shoot the player when they popped out, or they could have just had a few of them come over and pop the player. There were ways to account for their cheesing without taking away advantage. That said, it sounds like the player behaved rather badly so I can understand why Murph and Caldwell ruled the way they did.

AlexBalex

Yes! My dog farts all the time and they're usually loud.

Rob T

It’s funny with the rogue and the shrub thing cause that is exactly what Murph does as Riz during the “football” fight in fantasy high

Alec Guerin

I actually also have a case involving a shark I've been hoping to write in about

Tyler Weikel

On the dogs farting thing. You all are mistaken. Most dogs fart silently but not all. My parents pit/boxer mix has loud farts that sound like a human fart

jaydon

I love the intro but its so long

scarlet

Yea they could've flavored it as the Rogue pulling a fakeout and throwing a stone to make their pursuer think they ran to a different hiding place

Summer Tribe

melon bread is right sorta. RAW you give away your position. You have to move while hiding (shouldn't be too difficult for a rogue) and attack again. Tho Jake's whack a mole defense is pretty good, and as emily points out you can just use steady aim

Dylan Miller

The one about the younger sister actually got me teary eyed, new dm here and luckily my players praise me constantly and I feel happy with how I run my campaign even though I was crazy nervous going in I couldn’t imagine still going if I hadn’t gotten the initial praise I did for my DMing She deserves the world hope she realizes how hard of a task it is and she has proven herself several times over from what I’ve heard