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Episode 582: Bird Penetration System (Patreon)

Published:
2026-10-08 13:30:20
Imported:
2026-10
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Content

Robert Skvarla joins us to discuss pigeon-guided bombs, CIA spy cats, and the animal trainers who brought behaviorism into the intelligence business. We talk Skinner, MKUltra, and Discordian pranksters, all following the ambition to turn living things into programmable machines.

Read Neither Confirm Nor Deny by Robert Skvarla

Hit the tip line: (646) 801-1129 | tips@trueanon.com

Discover more episodes at podcast.trueanon.com

Files

Comments

Sneb

Yes. Also, first

John Waaben

Birdwatching mentioned? Will Yung Chomsky transition to wildlife photography?

Cat

Thought it'd be me finally

Dakota

Love cats hope nothing bad happens to them in this ep

Richard Cochnar

Is this in any way related to the Belden Program?

Jorge Jorgensen

i love burds, especially when they go “squawk”

Eric Sometimes

Finally an ep for the millennial male 🔎🦆🦜

drewb

I don't want to hear about cats or birds or other animals being hurt in the name of espionage so I'll probably skip this ep, but I do hope that everyone involved in those experiments experiences nothing but the dark yawning eternal chasm of knowing they're irredeemably and unforgivably bad people for having done so

Meeki

David Z. Morris, followed by Matt Ghost, and now Robert Skvarla? Damn! (Non-derogatory.)

Woke Batou

Are cats harmed? I need to know about this info hazard before playing. Especially after last ep.

John Lemieux

Ah yes, the famous Pavlovian experiments, wherein Pavlov’s dog trained his master to think about ringing bells every time he ate food.

Peanut Horse

Lmk when we get dolphins involved in espionage

Peter

At the CIA it's the bird that's doing the penetrating

Bryson Davis

wow - really reads like something straight out of gravity's rainbow, pynchon would love this

helvetica.hottie

Hey! So, I'm a trained archivist and it is my theory that there are already documents in archives all over the place that can answer so many questions. The problem is what this person is talking about; the information is distributed among so many places and it is impossible to describe collections at an item level. So finding EXACTLY what you're looking for can take YEARS of searching through nothing and finally stumbling upon something out of the blue while you were looking at something else entirely. Archives are goldmines of information, but the needle in haystack kind of way.

Vincent

*British accent* I have something of a Bird Penetration System myself.

T4Tina

I hate brace not being here. He’s one of the funniest people I’ve ever laughed at. Liz and YC do a great job, we love them, I’m just saying Brace has (especially his openings) put me in stitches and just had me losing my shit laughing, looking like a mental patient in public when I listen to this show.

BCL

when liz hits the straps its not a vague idea punctuated by ums and likes or guesses, its cold fucking facts like a lazer.

John Lemieux

“Acoustic kitty did not die”

John Lemieux

I’m choosing to interpret this as the cat was fine.

bob

Can’t wait for YC’s Big Year

John Lemieux

Does skvarla have any opinion on the theories that both Charles Manson and Ted Kacynsky (I can’t spell it) were subjected to MK ultra experiments

John Lemieux

I can’t wait for his transition

Michael Skeels

I’m just imagining a pigeon pecking away at buttons inside a bomb, looks to the tiny picture of his pigeon family by the control panel, closes his eyes as a single pigeon tear rolls down his cheek just before the bomb collides with a supply depot in the Rhineland. (He also has a tiny flight cap on)

Don Burrachos

If you’re into birdwatching, check out Listers on YouTube

OutofBeerRage

Finally an ep about my third favorite prog rock band

Throw Away

Richard Went? I would’ve thought Dick Came

Doug Cartel

"scientific progress happens one funeral at a time, or just when you start throwing spaghetti at the wall and jotting notes on whatever sticks"

Claire

Where is Brace? Is it vacation time for the labor he did while Liz was gone?

Your Mum

Birds arent real meme guy is my sisters exs roomate …

Claire

Sitting in the psychology building at the University of Minnesota listening to this… 🤯🕊️

Enkinanna

The experiments themselves weren’t as bad as I would’ve expected and were just a good hook and starting place, the episode is more about behaviorism as a model and intellectual movement, I think it’s worth a listen (also a really short one by TA standards)

Jennifer

Archivist here as well

Reece Coren

Besides always having the best reporting, Skavarla always does the best job of explaining everything so clearly and succinctly that even a complete moron like myself can understand. He is so well spoken and never wastes a single word. It’s such a breath of fresh air in today’s day and age. His rant in the last two minutes was phenomenal

drewb

Thanks for reporting back! I look forward to listening in that case

Will

Liz stealing Brace's topics

Shiv

hit the tip line

pulled a muscle yearning

Criminal of yc to tease the mad men theme and cut it before that incredible bernard purdie drum break

Mark Owen

I read somewhere that collegiality didn't really exist at RAND, despite the design efforts. People didn't read each other's papers, etc. So, it wasn't like the Macy Conferences (although plenty of people that went to those bounced quick).

Shyan Khan

the mad men audio clip is brilliant, great job YC you’re the man

Woke Batou

Pynchon would love it and David Foster Wallace would try to steal it

Little Monster

I heard it started as an Obama birther joke

WimboTump

Damn this ep really hits if you happen to be reading Gravity’s Rainbow at the same time, which I am… Am I being gangstalked?

Tea for the Tillerman

I experience the deleterious effects of mid century RAND mind control experiments every time I’m trying to zip in and out of Vons on 14th and wilshire and there’s a dozen blue hairs paralyzed by acid flashbacks clogging every aisle

comradecarpetcandy

Literally please have a part 2 of this episode that is three times as long kthxluvu

ectoslavia

I get really psyched when Skvarla is on anything. Love him and he doesn't do any of the 3 podcasts I listen to often enough.

Keith

I have always suspected that animals are spying on us. Those beady little eyes, and all that furtive sneaking about. They are clearly up to something nefarious.

Tim Lyons

ive been subconsciously training a podcast host to wear diapers

MirrorOooMirror

Why does everything psychology and scientific based, when it interacts with “intelligence” agencies, all just end up being straight up nazi shit? Shout out to Michael S Judge for the 3rd reich never ended analysis. The more you learn about the U.S. post ww2, the more it seems nazi shit was just absorbed not destroyed.

Austin

Acoustic kitty didn't kill itself

Duncan Shepherd

I thought I was going crazy how they weren't mentioning that Charles Murray turned Ted K into the Unabomber until I looked it up and realized that that was actually a different Murray lmao

Brian

But you'll listen to humans being hurt by espionage??? Lol

M D

Oh yea birds guiding missiles with peck correction lol. 50s -70s were crazy in the STEM world

ploob

Crazy work doing these last two sans Bwace. Not okay Liz!

ploob

He's dead, Liz killed him so she could take over the show.

Alex

classico

Franklin

Paternity leave. Brace has a newborn

Keith

Pigeons are natural born killers with the precision of stuka dive bombers.

SecretMoon

Some classic Season 👁ne TrueAnon here

drewb

If they signed up for it voluntarily, then they deserve everything they get. animals don't have a choice if they participate in our mass sociopathy.

MirrorOooMirror

I don’t think those are theories. Well, at least as far as Ted K is concerned. His participation as a subject for psychological experiments at Harvard is well documented, and not a theory at all just fact. As for Manson, hard not believe he didn’t undergo some sorta CIA something or another after you read Chaos.

Madison Perry

There is no graphic information about harm being done to animals. There is a mention of the CIA supposedly putting a listening device inside a cat for spying. Most discussion of animals has to do with training or behavioral studies.

Bria

Finally an episode Kash and his beastiality bros can listen to!

The Steel Harvest

even without brace, this is better than the last appearance of christman on Chapo

Door

i stayed at the walden ii commune when i was a kid it was pretty chill

Gabe P

BFG Skinner

The former junkyard hoochie daddy

Semi related but my great grandmother and her generation of friends and my aunts and shit apparently used to say that “every time they shoot one of them space ships up it messes up the weather.”

mark muoio

Rochester, NY mentioned again. I’m gonna look up that professor’s property records and see what pops up

YIMBY 4 HEAVEN

THE SYNANON SERIES IS VERY GOOD!! Best podcast content I've heard and im not lyin' like I usually do

Horse Badorties

I used to know the son of two famous Behaviourists. He was brilliant and very weird. A tsunami of bad manners.

Horse Badorties

My SERE ASMR YouTube channel was demonetized. TBF it never made much money and people kept sending me Iraqi dinars.

Horse Badorties

Dick Army came calling, and, well, Richard Went.

Horse Badorties

Oh no they let the pigeon out. It then homes to Bomber Island and lives happily ever after it flies 20 missions. 25 missions. 30 missions

Horse Badorties

Cats are notoriously untrainable. They have to see another cat do something so you need a genius cat to learn it first.

Gabby S

Porpoises with other purposes 🗣️🔥

GG Allin Dulles

Praying they mention the british concept for a nuclear landmine powered by a live chicken in this

Stuven

Idk they made gang stalking a sport now

Stuven

I can already communicate

Stuven

Help 8m victim of beastreality

Sexual Harry Potter

This reminds me of the anecdotes about how stupid third world insurgents are you always hear from western soldiers coping about losing a war to them. “The Iraqis thought turning the knob on the sights increased the power of the gun” “Taliban thought the missiles were guided by birds inside them. Actually they were right about that one”

JACK_SCREENBURN

Great episode. I'm about to finish Dr. Wendy Painting's "Aberration in the Heartland of the Real," her book on Timothy McVeigh and all the shit happening there, and Chapter Four, Part Three ("The Guilty Agent Or All-American Mind Control") goes into great depth about the history of brainwashing research and all this jazz. Too much for to me summarize here, but absolutely a book worth reading.

MirrorOooMirror

I agree! Im usually a fairly slow reader, but I picked that one up and finished it in like 3 reading sessions. I hadn’t done that since Goosebumps:Say Cheese and Die.

Kern Mailer (edited)

Comment edits

2026-10-13 00:00 Have been to IQ Zoo, it was great, they had a chicken that played basketball named Larry Bird, also a raccoon that could dunk (lotta basketball) and some ducks thay re-enacted the sinking of the Titanic.
2026-10-13 02:00 In the spirit of Liz attempting to make jokes and the guest really not going for it: I have been to IQ ZOO and it was fun and cute, they had a chicken that shot free throws named Larry Bird, also a raccoon that could dunk (another basketball) and some ducks thay re-enacted the sinking of the Titanic.
2026-10-10 01:30 In the spirit of Liz attempting to make jokes and the guest really not going for it: I have been to IQ ZOO and it was fun and cute, they had a chicken that shot free throws named Larry Bird, also a raccoon that could dunk (another basketball) and some ducks that re-enacted the sinking of the Titanic.

In the spirit of Liz attempting to make jokes and the guest really not going for it: I have been to IQ ZOO and it was fun and cute, they had a chicken that shot free throws named Larry Bird, also a raccoon that could dunk (another basketball) and some ducks that re-enacted the sinking of the Titanic.

chorchy

really disappointed that YC didn't say 'where'd he go' when John Went was mentioned ...

Phil Walls

big day for trueanon listeners that are also dog trainers

wavylady

What are the chances I’m reading Gravity’s Rainbow when this episode drops, jesus

wavylady

AHh, same! But someone DID warn me that a lot of coincidences happen in life when you’re reading Pynchon

Christopher Price

to me pigeons more closely resemble the A-6 Intruder

Keith

Or vice versa: the a6 was modeled after a lethality of the common pidgeon.

Ben

How did Pynchon know

Fernslinger

Great episode! Should have been twice as long is my only criticism

Tranche Devereaux

This ep’s gonna be a NO for me, dawg. Love the all female cast, but I was OUT when they started giving details about animals. Humans, whatever, I can handle atrocities against those losers

John

This reminded me of jon ronsons men who stare at goats.

glieb

everyone talking ab cybernetics now huh

Ariel

For skinner

Nathaniel Weiner

Why didn't Chomsky play Mr Collipark when he said College Park

Lojban Chauvinist

RAND is still around, they helped design the current Army fitness test. I guess that's a far cry from their heyday though lol

D.Jay Oakes-Munro

This whole episode sounds like John Scalzi’s book Starter Villain.

August Gardener

One of the best eps, it’s got all the ingredients.

Robbits

for-skinner and somebody wheeze in the bg lmaooo

AD

I know someone who dated him

AD

The home improvement one also