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Daggerheart & MCDM Bonus Analysis (Patreon)

Published:
2024-03-16 16:03:54
Imported:
2026-06
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Videos

Content

Because I did not have time to put this in the main video.

Files

Previews only

Daggerheart & MCDM Bonus Material

Comments

MrGunn

The Magic Man and El Diablo!

Adam

Yeah I am a grid kind of guy, probably from playing on grid paper with BECMI.

Don Bakke

I would be interested in videos about both of these systems once they are officially released.

MrGunn

Dear Professor: As always when I am faced with maths problems, I just say; I'm pretty, math is hard. 😜🤣🤣 RPGPundit went on a tirade against Daggerheart, now say what you will about the Pundit himself, he did bring up a couple of interesting points. Foremost was that Matt Mercer in an actor and not a game designer and has hired a consultant to write the game. Secondly, he stressed that Daggerheart was not a true TTRPG but was a story telling game tilted more towards improv actors and story telling than actual OSR type role playing. Thirdly he critiqued Matt Mercer for just recycling Powered by the Apocalypse and making that game more complicated with 2d12. Daggerheart is a game that just does not interest me. Personally I don't watch Critical Role, I think it is reality TV for nerds. Critical Role is an unrealistic portrayal of how TTRPGs are actually played by most people. I am not a professional actor nor am I a trained improv artist. I believe Critical Role does more harm than good as it holds up an unrealistic expectation for would be GMs by players who have none of the acting or improv skills Mercer’s players have, yet demand a Critical Role like gaming experience. I chose not to invest in MCDM because my first and last purchase from them took too long and when it finally arrived it had a major misprint. MDCM is not a completed RPG, this is a bad idea when investing in a Kickstarter. Further, I don't think the game will be offering anything substantially different, the world does not need an 'improved' D&D 4e and it won't be fully play tested. Kelsey took years perfecting and playing Shadowdark and her Kickstarter shipped within a year of launching. I think Coleville is out over his skis. Perhaps I will be proven wrong in both cases, I certainly think Daggerheart will get some early press, but I don't think folks will be playing it ten years from now. Since we don't know when MCDM will be released, we won't know if people will be playing it at all, much less in 10 years. In closing, I agree with you, innovation and experimentation and having more games to choose from improves the hobby overall. There are tons of RPGs out there Deathbringer, Dread, DCC, MCC, ICRPG, 5TD, Shadowdark, Alien, Mothership, Traveller, HarnMaster, GURPs, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Swords & Sorcery, Hyperboria, Burning Wheel, BitD, Fate et al. I would like to see players choosing to play more games with different mechanics and worlds rather than just settling on D&D 5e or whatever pablum Wizbros decides to excrete. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and opinions. I look forward to your next video. Best, MrGunn PS I watched Dungeon Shorts review and he basically echos PDM, Daggerheart is very crunchy and has a learning curve for new players and a lot to keep track of.

Ernesto

Mechanically the MCDM RPG is simpler than 5e, just add 2d6 and a modifier. A single roll. No roll to hit, just roll damage. What worries me the most is that I think that they, without that intention, are designing a tactical PbtA, and Matt's overall arrogance since Fleet Mortals is tiresome, public statements like "our product is better and more enjoyable that official 5e ones" aren't a good look. About not having the game designed and not having a release date, they never lied about what the crowdfunding campaign was about, since day once they said that that money was for funding the game development. I think that is a little disingenuous from your part to criticize them for that, when they have been as transparent as you possible can, and on top of that they have the courage of one not doing yet another DnD clone, and two being transparent with the developing process. When you got afraid even with just using 3 attributes instead of the same old 6 in DeathBringer. If in the end they flop that's ok, at least they tried to do something different without the fear of trying to compromise to the DnD sacred cows. I don't understand why in the video you said that art is it's own justification which I agreed, but now privately your are throwing shade to them for essentially trying to do something different than DnD. Not everyone want DnD clones. I for once can't stand 5e nor B/X clones, the former is unGMable after level 5 and the later is to simple for most players. If I want a simpler game I use Cairn that is way more better designed that B/X Anyways

Bagel-Man

Excited to watch this when I get home professor!

Steven Sweet

I agree with your theory that your audience is not (mostly) the kind of people drawn to either of these games for exactly the reason you stated. Your focus is a more streamlined game and people who like that are less likely to want what is (in my opinion) just different types of crunch.

Benjamin Marra

Man, I played in a 4e campaign for four years. It was with friends who I loved. They were unyielding devotees to WotC's expertise. We would spend about 15 minutes on context and narrative at the beginning of each session then the next 3+ hours in combat. I absolutely hated the gameplay and it drove me toward what became the OSR.

Firstspear

I watch GCN (try it) and they use Pathfinder for many of their games. I think Pathfinder may be the crunchiest game I've come across. I'm developing a sense that sometimes players and GMs look to deep tactical (crunch) for a sense of agency and accomplishment - the irony is that you don't need that crunch. I prefer a "What do you want to do? OK - here is your target, there is a complication if you fail" A recent Pathfinder example was where one of their players wanted to jump over a table to engage an enemy. Because of the action economy and the specific rules they basically could not. But how cool and cinematic would it be if you succeed your athletics/acrobatics check and..."Your character parkours over the table, lands in front of the enemy and attacks!" or "Your character tries to parkour over the table, but plants their hand on some greasy mutton, you slip and roll to the ground in front of the enemy!" The two games I enjoy the most from GCN are their Traveller and Cthulhu campaigns. Simple play, great stories.

MrGunn
>>132538084

Pathfinder the crunchiest?! Oh my, we really need to get you out more, Aftermath and Phoenix Command both come to mind. 🧩🧮🧠🧐.

Kristen Solindas

Your take in crunchy systems is a little discouraging as I write my game. I like a little crunch, and I'm sure many do, or we'd be flipping a coin. There is a fuzzy line somewhere between descriptive mechanics and freedom that is different for every player. I'm a strong believer that this lies on a bimodal spectrum. You lean toward simpler = better, and while I understand that appeal, sometimes a little more crunch can add a lot of variety and nuance. Mind you, "crunch" doesn't have to be complicated, either. A clever system can blend into the game seamlessly, with a lot of the mathematics hidden under a toss of dice, without becoming a burden on the players. I've played some games with simpler mechanics, and found them lacking. D&D has a simple base mechanic, sure, but with pages and volumes of material that create special rules for classes and magic and such, it's become cumbersome and unwieldy. Might a system that is more robust but covers most all of those exceptions be considered simpler? I'd say it is.

MrGunn
>>132528421

@Ernesto I agree B/X has its issues, but Cairn seems to have its own set of issues not least which it is poorly written and has a confusing layout. For example, in the PDF p4 under ability scores it does not tell you how they are generated, roll 3d6 it appears, but this is only inferable from the example provided. The SRD clearly states rolling 3d6 is the correct procedure for generating ability scores. Also Cairn claims to be 'Classless' yet descries gear packages for Cleric, Fighter, Thief etc. The inventory rules make no sense, PCs have an arbitrary total of 10 inventory slots. Filling all ten inventory slots reduces a PC to 0 HP, then what?!. Casting spells causes fatigue, fatigue is added to your inventory, which one assumes can cause you to go to 0 HP. What happens if you cast a spell with a full backpack, do you just keel over? To make matters worse, fatigue is not even covered under the inventory rules, it is elsewhere and again needs to be inferred. I would also argue Carin is more of a story telling game than a role-playing game in the classic sense. For example, from the Warden's (GM) Principles p2: "Emergent experience of play is what matters, not math or character abilities." and from the Players Principles p3 "Don’t ask only what your character would do, ask what you would do, too." These examples imply you are no longer playing a role, rather you are simply playing yourself in a weird story simulation, where the rules don't really matter only the story does, which is fine if you like that sort of thing, but then why have rules at all? I am glad you and your group are enjoying Carin, however, it needs a lot of work to be ready for prime time, the 2e play test looks to be a step in the right direction, but in my opinion it still has a long way to go.

MrGunn
>>132543587

@Kristen Solindas My read on PDM's game design philosophy is he leans towards simpler is faster and more flexible, which leads to more exciting game play because you can get more done in less time. The main point PDM makes is the more complex a game is, the longer it takes to resolve the player obstacle, be it combat or what not. The more modifiers and more choices for a player before rolling dice the more time it takes for a player to execute their turn. Thus the game advances much more slowly and as a consequence other players get bored waiting for someone to execute their turn. See his videos on initiative and rolling to hit and damage dice together. Most of us oldsters cut our teeth on wargames with tomes of numbered rules, hexes, the small chits of cardboard with numbers and symbols on them or playing with hoards of historical miniatures using complex rules and tables. D&D and TSR were born from this crucible of wargaming. Many games of the late 80's and early 90's were simulationist in nature and tried to be 'realistic' with skills based systems and other innovations. RuneQuest, HarnMaster, Phonenix Command, et al. I agree with you, you need to find the sweet spot between complexity and simplicity, the balance between flexibility (rulings) and clearly defined limits (rules). However, I became a fan of PDMs because of his simpler is faster and more flexible approach. I now agree with him, I don't want to look up rules or consult tables or add umpteen modifiers in my head, lets throw the dice and get on with the game. One suggestion, have you looked at the Fantasy Trip RPG, it is an interesting blend between tactical wargame and RPG. Might be worth a look.

Ernesto
>>132528421

Hello, I think that you didn't understand Cairn. The 10 inventory slots is arbitrary, yes like most things in other RPGs. If you have all your slots occupied and you cast a spell, you have to drop something from your inventory, or you can't move. It is classless and it has optional rules for how to emulate classes, IDK why is that a problem. In many cases Cairn is the epitome of rulings over rules. And curious enough, so far o dont like the 2e because it has an implied setting with backgrounds tied to that setting But anyways, each one to our things

MrGunn
>>132528421

@Ernesto Thank you for responding and for bringing my attention to another RPG with interesting mechanics. I think I understood Cairn and I understand arbitrary rules for playability's sake. I just felt it left a lot of open questions about basic rules, fatigue in particular, I am tired and have 0 hit points, do I drop unconscious, am I dead, can I drop my back pack and voila, I have hit points again? Interesting ideas, it just needs work. I am glad you are having fun playing Cairn, it is what is most important. For me, Cairn did not hit the sweet spot between complexity and simplicity, the balance between flexibility (rulings) and clearly defined limits (rules). I think it is less game and more story telling vehicle, which I am not a fan of. I think their are other better more developed games that balance these things better.

Ernesto
>>132528421

Hello, sorry if I insist but I still have the suspicion that you didn't understand Cairn, for example there are no hit points, HP stands for hit protection, and is a buffer on top of your health which is your Strength score, and all of your questions are explained in the rules. The part that is left to interpretation are most of the spell effect, something like "create a wall of thorns", it doesn't specify the dimensions or duration, is up the the table and the GM to rule that and that is why is great for new people and kids, that don't have preconceived notions of "how an rpg suppose to work"

Daniel Defazio

Do NOT listen to me. Design the game you want. I am frequently wrong. And I think we actually agree . A certain degree of crunch or granularity is necessary for a game to feel like a game. I think Daggerheart and MCDM are too crunchy for me. In the MCDM demo, a combat between two PCs and couple of monsters took an hour. That's too long to hold my attention. Call of Cthulhu is good because it's "pre-crunched"--the character creation process takes a long time but the play does not. Rock on, Kristen!

Daniel Defazio
>>132524165

Maybe. I have been reading the Daggerheart rules and...I never a give a negative reviews. So I'd have to see what a final draft would look like. But right now, from what I have read, it's kind of a jumbled mess.

Daniel Defazio
>>132526582

D&D Shorts video was good. The Pundit and I disagree about initiative. I think a game does not NEED initiative, but Daggerheart's initiative system is just confusing. The rules are also overwritten, from what I have seen.

Daniel Defazio
>>132528421

Not throwing shade. They did not lie. My feeling with crowdfunding is it is VERY dangerous to take money without having a completed product. Another poster called it "getting out in front of your skis." Art is its justification, yes. New games are awesome and new systems are awesome. Runequest, Mork Borg, Crown & Skull, Dragonbane all do something different from D&D, and they are cool. If you recall, I liked Dungeonworld. But as I actually read Daggerheart, it seems jumbled. And I saw the MCDM playtest and it took a LOOOONG time to resolve a single combat. Those are fair criticisms. I hope they work threw these issues in play testing. I am rooting for them.

MrGunn
>>132576871

@DungeonCraft Strange advice, my wife says; “You DO NOT listen to me!” all the time. She seems angry when she says this tho… 🤔. 🤣🤣🤣

Don Bakke
>>132524165

I was traveling and only on my mobile when I posted earlier. I'd like to elaborate. I would be interested in your reviews because I'm always interested in your reviews. That said, I have very little interest in Daggerheart because 1.) nothing about the game that I've heard about thus far seems interesting, and 2.) I'm not a "critter", so nothing from Darrington Press gets me going. On the flip side, I've learned a lot from Matt Colville and I have some of MCDM's other products. I've rather enjoyed the "Designing the Game" video essays and they have only hightened my interest.

Frank Mitchell
>>132543587

TFT started as a pair of tactical skirmish games, and their designer Steve Jackson (of GURPS fame) later added RPG mechanics. It's pretty nice for what it was, but after playing a campaign of it in college I started noticing the easily exploited spells and the limits of the Talent system and just a general clunkiness. GURPS was Jackson's more complicated TFT do-over, which has its own problems. P.S. RuneQuest is nowhere near as crunchy as, say, HarnMaster. After all, RQ is the basis for Call of Cthulhu, King Arthur Pendragon (somewhat), the Basic Roleplaying system, and a bunch of licensed games in the 80s and 90s that are now sadly out of print.

Frank Mitchell
>>132528421

I remember the Call of Cthulhu 7th edition Kickstarter where we waited three years for them to deliver a product, only to find out they'd spent all the Kickstarter money and couldn't actually print the books. (Chaosium's stockholders stepped in, fired the guy in charge, and used their own money to get the game out the door.) So I have a bad feeling about MCDM. I hope I'm wrong. P.S. A bit of context: CoC 1-6 were essentially the same game, just with more "stuff" in each core book. CoC 7 was a significant departure, which some CoC grognards still hate. I don't know how much of those three years were tweaking the new mechanics and how much was sitting around wondering what to do, but in any case the fact that the MCDM system took in $4.6M and they're *still* working on it makes me nervous. Kevin Crawford's tried-and-true Kickstarter method, in part, delays asking people for money until the game is written; all the money goes to art and production costs. Playtesting and tinkering on someone else's dime just strikes me as irresponsible.

Firstspear
>>132538084

Ooof - no thanks! WFRP is plenty crunch for me, and I'm more along the lines of DB.

Jay
>>132526582

Nothing breaks immersion worse that the statement "Roll for Initiative" ~ quote from Whyloch. I completely agree!

James C

Your analysis on having a fairly concrete game system in place before asking for funds is very true. Star Citizen (a video game not a TTRPG but a good example) falls under this problem. It’s been in development for 10 years with over $600 million in funding by players hoping for the game. What seems to be happening is feature creep and poor management. They promised the moon initially, now they are promising the universe so to speak. Once again, great analysis PDM.

James C
>>132526582

I have a love/hate relationship with initiative. Yes it slows down the game somewhat but it’s such an advantage to win it in D&D that it should be calculated.

James C
>>132543587

How much crunch I want sometimes depends upon my mood or the game setting. I enjoy BECMI games but yes, sometimes the rules are vague so I turn to 5E where it has a bit more math. But then I get tired of all the ability checks and a fairly confining skill system so I am drawn back to BECMI. There’s no perfect game system. People have different tastes, sometimes depending upon their mood at the time. And that’s perfectly okay.

Jay
>>132528421

PDM, as someone who has invested in several crowdfunding projects of the years I must agree with you. I have been burned by some projects that were not quite complete prior to funding and twice I have lost out. This will never happen a third time. Word to the wise.

Jay
>>132543587

@Kristen Solindas I'm looking forward to hearing more about the game your designing. Any way we could get a look or perhaps a release date? I enjoy new and innovative ideas in games. I take no position or crunch or no crunch btw. I see value in both types and feel it depends on preference or mood. Thanks.

samurguybri
>>132532859

“unyielding devotees to WotC’s expertise” well stated, evocative and ouch!

NØKKEN_WAITS

Good analysis, Prof. Spot on concerning your audience... at least speaking for myself... I've been watching some of Coleville's update videos and they are fascinating, BUT I've been realizing that the game they are making really isnt for me. Same with the Daggerheart stuff. I'm really glad it's out there, and that people are finding niches... But it just ain't for me. And THATS OK! Thats whats so lovely about ttrpgs. Just like I'm glad there is so much music out there, but theres definitely some music that just isnt for me. And thats OK.

Kristen Solindas
>>132543587

Thank you, Jay! I don't want to clog up PDM's server with my stuff, but I'm happy to chat about my game with anyone who expresses interest. I just set up my first Discord server (still learning that platform) at https://discord.gg/3Uz4UqZe, or I'm also at nerethel@gmail.com. A webpage is on the horizon, but my dev skills are way out of date.

Jay
>>132543587

Thank you kindly. I look forward to checking these out.

Anthony Johnston

Good analysis Prof DM & brought up some pts I hadnt considered. I honestly am not interested in either system for diff reasons. I think DnD 6e is gonna suffocate many of these alternative RPGs for quite a while after release.