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The Last of Us Part II - Cane and Rinse No.476 (Patreon)

Published:
2021-07-12 11:34:52
Edited:
2021-07-12 15:46:11
Imported:
2021-07
Tags:

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Content

One year after its release, we take on Naughty Dog's dark and divisive sequel. Leon, Josh, Karl, Thomas and a passionate faction of community correspondents express what they loved, and what they hated, about the already much talked about The Last of Us Part II.

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Comments

Alex79

Wooooh it's the biggie, here we go! Now I just need to find an excuse for a long drive so I can listen to it!

Miri Starling

Genuinely am not sure if I can bear to listen to this. Especially after the football stress yesterday 😂😂😂

Alex79

I thought Jay might pop up on this one! Absolutely not taking anything from any of the team at all, but just nice to hear Jay on a show when he's on one. Jay, I know you're busy and that, but if you could just record a 60-90 minute monologue to pop on the end, that would be great - thanks!

Tolkientaters

This was a great podcast, really enjoyed the conversation. I think this podcast brought up an interesting point about violence in games, my opinion is far from original, but I think the AAA game reliance on violence as gameplay hampers their storytelling potential. As games go for more ambitious stories with incredibly well preformed and written characters like in Witcher 3, Red Dead 2, and Last of Us 2 (plenty of others) the dissonance between the amount of violence the character does in gameplay and how they're written continues to be wide. I can believe Arthur Morgan and Geralt would kill a lot of people, but would Author gun down 20 human beings every bank robbery? Would Geralt dismember 10 bandits on his way from one village to another without remark? I think the main issue is gamifying violence is a core of a lot of video game design and AAA games have to include if they want to be successful. The problem is there aren't a lot of scenarios where the amount of violence you do in most combat games can be justified, so the solution seems to be to largely ignore the dissonance. I still really enjoy all the games I mentioned (Witcher 3 is one of my favorite games), but that dissonance does take something away from the stories the games are trying to tell. I think the gamified violence stands out less in more arcadey or sillier games like beat em ups or characteractio games, but in AAA games trying to more mature complex stories, their reliance on violence continues to hamper their potential in my opinion at least.

Miri Starling

I'm glad someone (I want to say Thomas?) also noted the similarities in theme between "Uncharted 4" and "The Last of Us Part II", because I played the latter first and thought "huh Druckmann really has some story themes and character arcs he particularly seems to enjoy" (although I'd say the better comparison to Ellie and Abby is Sam - with his laser focus on a pointless and destructive goal in lieu of dealing with some clear mental health problems. Although this character arc is a lot less heavy and more pleasantly frothy compared to TLOU2!). I actually think the (gulp) ludonarrative dissonance problem is more of a problem in UC4 than TLOU2. I love UC4 to absolute pieces, but there is a reason why people joke about Drake being some sort of sociopath. TLOU 1 and 2 are set in a brutalised world where "normal" values and civilisation are thrown out the window. And the stakes are higher - Nate, Sully and co kill hundreds of people just for treasure. TLOU2 is a war zone where people are brutalised into killing because they are surrounded by death and torture. To get through any UC game you sort of have to apply the Indiana Jones principle of turning off your brain to any of the real life consequences of Nate's actions. TLOU2 is *all* about the consequences of your actions and both Ellie and Abby pay a moral price for every crushed skull and slit throat. It's impossible to apply real world, peace time standards to the TLOU 2 characters, especially the ones born into the hellscape like Ellie and Abby. Even the more gentle characters, like Mel, Owen, Dina and Yara, are shown to be efficient and remorseless killers at various points of the story. Lots of fantastic opinions and discussion this episode. As the Seraphites are to their prophet, I am a hideously biased TLOU2 acolyte who defends the game on all fronts. But it was a pleasure to listen to diverging opinions discussed thoughtfully and respectfully. For some reason it's turned into a real minefield of a game to discuss, and so this podcast must have felt a bit daunting. I thought you pulled it off well. I won't go too much into individual points argued. However, I will always defend the Bad Pups for making that torture scene a RTE. While I understand the POV of the listener who would have preferred it and similar scenes to be cutscenes, surely that reaction of repulsion is the point. There is a lot of discussion about what responsibility games have in portraying violence. But Naughty Dog uses the uniquely active nature of gaming to hammer home the message of the cruelty of what Ellie is doing. By requiring the player to be active in these horrifying acts, the game achieves something much more visceral and effective than would have been the case if we were watching passively.

Quiet Paul

Amazing show. My partner was working overtime so I took the opportunity to sit and listen to the whole thing. Nice to hear some friendly disagreements, I always think that’s best as you really get to hear from different perspectives. I suppose if any game would do that it’d be this one! Well done chaps.

CoupdeGravy

Quiet Paul is spot on. I think Thomas's contributions to this discussion were invaluable. All points were well made but I'm really glad there was a panelist there to stir things up and keep the discussion of a very divisive game from being a love-in.

Luke Scriven

I enjoyed listening to this issue far more than I have enjoyed any Naughty Dog game I've played! Completely agree about the excellent contribution that differing points of view brought to this discussion.

Oni Omoregie

This was a good episode. I fall mainly under Thomas’ opinion. The game was well built, but suffered from being trauma porn and the gameplay being nothing special.

Alan Wilkinson

Great podcast. Interesting to hear the commentor whose contribution you read that said the violence has no emotional impact and is very upsetting. This seems paradoxical to me. I think we are so used to seeing violence in media that isn't upsetting that we can often recoil when it does have a big impact.

Christopher Love

Very much enjoyed this episode, especially refreshing to hear some varying opinions from all involved without it being reduced to petty bickering. This is a game that really speaks to the emotions of the player; as such, emotional reaction will differ for everyone and no opinion is simply 'right or wrong.'

Jake Z

Great discussion guys. Love how each of you passionately and respectfully voiced your different perspectives on the game.

Jake Z

I agree that the amount of violence in these games can create ludonarrative dissonance, but I actually think TLOU2's story and tone minimizes this dissonance more than perhaps any AAA game could. You are supposed to feel repulsed by the amount of violence you're committing, not compartmentalize it like most games. And I don't see a game like Disco Elysium in the cards for the AAA space, just as most blockbuster films feature copious violence. Violence sells.

Jake Z

Totally agree that UC4 has the ludonarrative dissonance problem more than this game. And all the more because Drake is reluctant and questioning of his own motives. My big problem with UC4 was that tonal inconsistency. The Uncharted games were pulpy action fun until Druckmann tried to give UC4 the self-seriousness of TLOU, and it made the normally frivolous violence glaringly dissonant.

Paul M

Great discussion, as someone who thinks the game is excellent, if not always “enjoyable” it was refreshing to hear nuanced discussion of the game.

Jon Cheetham

Great show folks. Bring on The Last of Us Part 3.

Cane and Rinse

(Leon) I want to say to you folks that I regret and apologise for my comment about JJ not being Ellie's biological baby having an impact on her actions, as it was thoughtless and potentially hurtful. What I said wrongly implies that the relationships between parents and their adopted or stepchildren are somehow lesser. However, I do maintain that some parents can and do sometimes make terrible, destructive decisions regardless of their responsibilities to and relationships with their families. Please accept my sincere apologies for my insensitive and inaccurate suggestion though.

Paul

Thanks for another great podcast, folks. I appreciate the diversity in views of the game expressed in this episode. Nice to have some balanced and thoughtful commentary on such a big and divisive title.

Steve Norman

Thought it might be too soon after being sick to death of hearing about this when it launched, but I don’t like not listening to you guys, and while I still have no desire to ever play this, I’m glad I stuck with it. Was a thought-provoking discussion.

pconpi

This is why I love C&R, great job all. The community and the panel are so additive to my enjoyment of gaming with these discussions.

Phil Rodgers

Fantastic episode. Also pleased to hear one of my favourite games of all time 'Papers Please' being discussed.