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Matt and Danny Bessner, from the American Prestige podcast, explore one of the most important counterfactuals in the history of the 20th century left: what if Vladimir Lenin had died before he and the Bolsheviks were able to seize power in Russia. They explore the issue from a variety of perspectives, examining in what ways this might have informed the history of socialism as both an international and domestic project. Throughout, they ask: Might the left have been in a better position if the Soviet Union never existed?

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Comments

Kyle Petty

I know this is couple years late I was just amazed at the rebuttal of "I'm right because I Read this book." Hey that very well may be true, That's not an argument. I've listened to hyper capitalist acquaintances of mine cite "The road to Serfdom," as their sole argument. It's the knowledge of the book itself that is the argument, Not just the sheer act of reading a book

SwagMasta420

Well the Soviet Union beat the Nazis so I'm gonna go with no. Place bets 👇

Jimmy B

No! NO!!

Corey JOHNSTON

Queue all of the dumb millennial tankies getting angry because they have no historical understanding of the horrors committed in the Soviet Union.

Noname

Hot take settings turned from stun to kill

WillyGetSilly

Listening to this makes me feel retarded

Brett Barbara

You don’t like electro swing????

Archie MacLellan

Listening to chapo on an oil rig was the only thing that kept me going. Listening to hinge points working on windturbines makes me much happier. Change happens brothers ⚒️

MK

This mf caping for the victims of communism memorial fund smh

Ed Scherrer

Theme song sounds like Ween

Sirloinofice

At multiple points during this episode I thought "Yeah and that's what ends up happening in Kaiserreich." Like the part about a revolution not happening in France because they won. They lose in Kaiserreich and a revolution does happen.

Sirloinofice

Gamer brain rot is real and I have it. Send help.

alex miller

It's a wild ride of a song, for sure. Makes me want to hip-fire a couple six-shooters and churn some butter.

Garth Hillsborough

Obviously part of the 'gag' is how provocative the premise is so getting mad is only putting a little treat in Matt's mouth. I would say I agree that International Communism being leashed to Moscow foreign policy was in general an error - great example coming to mind is in 1947 the official line being to support Israel, which completely kneecapped the (significant) Communist parties in the Arab world. On the other hand without Moscow's support the history of the KMT and the CPP looks entirely different which is so big as to be neither here nor there. To be frank I have a hard time believing that reaction would be so soothed by the vanishing of the spectre of Soviet communism that the national left would be ascendant in the rest of the world. It seems to me a world more likely to be darker than lighter.

Yacobum

This is my new favorite show

Antipaganda

I wonder what would have happened in the Spanish Civil War if the Soviets hadn't been there to drive the ancoms away from the wider left? Orwell might have returned a victorious hero.

Garth Hillsborough

The long-time Soviet spy within the British intelligence service, Kim Philby, says in his autobiography after Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, any principled leftist had three choices. The first choice would be to become disenchanted and become of the world of ghouls like Chamberlain and Churchill. The second would be to become functionally a crank, having a cadre of 10 people who sell newspapers in a circle. The third option would be to keep the faith, because the Soviet Union was for almost all its existence was the only foundation of a true Socialist alternative, a totally new world. Like it or not, we're now left with just the first two choices.

Garth Hillsborough

That was the big problem is that Matt didn't mention Savinkov at all.

bjdripley

I love this show so much you guys.

Tam Mansilver

Isn’t this the role china plays today to the left in the US

Sirloinofice

Fascism in Japan and Italy might still rise which is bad.

Maggie+Al

My issue with left wing speculation on this line is always that we notice the contingent factors on our side but not on the opersition. Kerensky who's notionally not a bad candidate for the Russian Ebert but he could never do because he lacks the history, that's structural. But while the Russian officer Corps is definitely be stupider than Ludendorff I'm not sure that the German General staff always make the call to concede the war if they don't have the Russians as a fairly clear example of what not to do

jay alan

Matt, thank you for making my brain bigger. 🙏🏻🏄‍♂️

Derp

Great show, thanks!

jay alan

Also Daniel! 🙏🏻

Bobby Volcano

This is very good content, thank you. Really enjoying all these.

Blingo Starr

The theme song makes me want to kill myself

Adam Urato

Yall motherfuckers need to read RedSails dot org

Aric Jeffries

I liked a lot about this episode, but at the risk of being the annoyed tankie: They tried a New Left out and all we got was intellectualized nonsense from people like Zizek, Chomsky, and whatever the hell orgs like DSA are supposed to be. Maybe going back to the foundational aspects of neighborhood and workplace party organizing that allowed for Bolshevik success would prepare us for the crisis of capital we’re heading into. Waiting around for something new to come along is what everyone on the left has been doing for the last 60 years. The great thing about Marxism is that it gives you a roadmap for action, but you have to go out and practice it if you want to figure out how to adapt it into something applicable to your time and conditions.

Baron

Hell yeah dude, absolute respect for technicians up there 🙏🏼

Baron

This might be a lazy counter-point to the counter-point of Holocaust and Nazism, but I genuinely believe to some extent that the Volkstadt and Nazi Party were less capable of forming without a great Other, in this case the “Judeo-Bolsheviks”, and as such, have a continuity of logic as the one Matt/Daniel applied to American politics. If Lenin died, would we have still had a European Holocaust? A rise of Western fascism? I’m not sure.

Alexander Swart

It's a classic what if, but I wish they actually got into the specific mechanisms of what they imagined. A lot of the episode was very vague onto how this would actually be beneficial to the left beyond vaguely gesturing toward already failed movements and assuming that a lack of a left pressure on imperialists would result in a more robust international left. Neglecting to talk about things like how China would have been different if Russia had been allied with Imperial Japan, or what a unified fascist Europe would have been like seems insufficient.

K U

I could be wrong, but I think the Secret Speech was more of the end to the Western romanticism over communism in Russia right? At least, Deng Xiaoping saw it as something of a death blow to the movement as a whole.

K U

I would put Stalin in the conversation of history bending people. No one else still around would have saw Collectivization through, there was nothing inevitable about it. All the non-Stalin cronies in the top leadership were against it. Stalin pushed it through all the death, the starvation, the revolts. It's impressive in a sick way.

T

That's a spicy Hinge-a Point!

K U

Got to the end. Lenin as the fusion of Trotsky's sincere belief in world revolution, and Stalin's will to power and proactiveness is interesting. It's worth pointing out though, that Lenin's thinking was flawed in a different way than Stalin's. His conception of the Soviet Union, a bet on world revolution that he forced Stalin to build, was utterly flawed. Stalin was hedging his bets when he proposed making a Russian state that absorbed the other nations into one Russian entity rather than a union of states that could leave if given the choice. Read Stephen Kotkin's article in NYTimes arguing that Stalin is the father of modern Ukraine for more details on this.

K U

The left was going to eat itself in the civil war regardless. They had long standing tensions, the Soviets pulling out their weaponry and tech would not have made the victors against a right wing coalition that was willing to work together.

spoon

cracker first-world settler concludes it's soviet russia's fault that burger-eating white amerikkkans failed to voluntarily give up their war spoils and imperial superprofits

FlawlessNirvana

the new "other" would have been something along the lines of "judeo-slavs" that would still justify generalplan ost

Matt Crossin

lol at the moronic replies to this

Matt Crossin

i mean the red army didn’t do it all alone, but hey what happened before that btw?

SwagMasta420

☝️ CIA alert hey who let Hitler have Czechoslovakia?

Ligma

Maybe if you yell at the white settlers online more they'll give up their stolen wealth. Seriously what's the end game here? If you hold Americans accountable the revolution will happen? Feeling guilty about all the bad stuff we've done is a huge part of the liberal ideology especially in America.

Ligma

I think Stalin was pretty much just a competent strongman nationalist leader there were others who could've done what he did, and what he did could've been done better.

Ligma

Yeah but if the Soviet Union had never existed would the Nazis have come to power? Maybe not.

SwagMasta420

No, they still would have in one form or another. Read "War and Revolution: Rethinking the 20th Century" by Domenico Losurdo, where he shows that the "USSR is to blame for Nazis" argument not only is demonstrably false historical revisionism, only exists to serve the reactionary, anti-Soviet American/British bloc, and that it's premier historians and writers like Arendt, Nolte, and Furet are massive hypocrites and are wrong about everything. Oh and also that the false narrative exists to conceal the true origins of Fascism as it emerged out of the era of imperialism. Great read.

SwagMasta420

Japan for sure and Italy is where Fascism started anyways. I think Italy would have raped and pillaged Africa and the Balkans and been allowed to do it, but Japan would have been stamped out by a competing and jealous US/UK eventually. If only to then carve China up among themselves again.

SwagMasta420

Doesn't really matter, the Jews were just convenient and just a start. They went ahead and started to wipe out Slavs and Poles anyways during WWII, so...

SwagMasta420

Malding in the comments but you're right and you should say it. You people can blame the same 70 year long dead ghosts and spectres all day for the failure of the "international left", but at the end of the day, YOU are the international left and you have agency.

Ligma

I don't think anyone here believes that they are to blame in the sense that they are morally responsible, just that in the sequence of events that lead us to where we are now, the USSR started over a decade before the Nazis took over and if things had gone differently in Russia they probably would have also gone differently in Germany.

Ligma

Do we? What could I or any other citizen of the imperial core possibly do that would make a difference or even contribute to a project of making the world a better place? Things don't change in the world unless there's a material factor pushing in that direction. All the western leftists getting together and flagellating themselves for living in a society isn't going to do anything.

calvin kilby

I'm a tankie and I just wanna say I liked this episode you pointy headed, self-righteous dorks

SwagMasta420

What can I say? You are wrong, go read the book. Germany's imperial ambitions are what took it into WWI and the seeds were sown for the Third Reich in Wilhelmine Germany before even the October Revolution.

Ligma

Which of the great powers didn't have imperial ambitions? Every country in Europe had Liberals, Fascists, Communists, etc. who could have taken over if the circumstances had been right. I think you buy the wartime propaganda a bit too much if you think Germany is or was somehow destined to be expansionist, more so than the other empires.

SwagMasta420

Read the fucking book? Germany was in the worst position out of all the big European powers after WWI, communists or not, so it's not exactly "destiny" that makes it likely for Germany to try and expand, regardless of whatever imperialist ideology takes the reigns. That's one point Losurdo makes, that fascism isn't actually so special in regards to it's actions and goals compared to the other imperialist, white supremacist ideologies of Germany's contemporaries.

Ligma

Not going to read your book sorry. Maybe in a world where the USSR never forms Germany isn't in the worst position out of all the big European powers, or they're in an even worse position and that causes a revolution. Also, even if Germany starts expanding there's different ways they could've done it. If there had been different people in charge imo Germany probably could've won WWII by not attacking Russia.

Patrick Holt

If they hadn't siezed power, they wouldn't have divided democratic socialists from revolutionary socialists specifically intending to create one party dictatorships. That means no major division of the working class in each country, and much lower chance of fascism. After that I can't speculate. But a united working class movement not divided into two competing Internationals is better placed to win elections and mount revolutions when Wall Street crashes.

SwagMasta420

Yeah whatever man, if you don't wanna learn with actual history you can just keep dreaming up ahistorical fantasies. Germany's conditions were cemented in 1918 with the end of the war. If Russian Empire or Russian constitutional monarchy or whatever exists after 1917 without the revolution, Germany would be subject to another Ally and their conditions as Russia would have continued to fight in WWI. That makes Germany's position even worse. The Ottomans blamed their loss on Armenians supposedly working with the Russians to justify the genocide, Germany can scapegoat the Russian Empire just the same as it did with the USSR, and it could even be a stronger case to rally around a grudge or conspiracy if the Russians actually partook in the Versailles Treaty as one of the major allies.

Patrick Holt

Fascism becmes less likely, and working class movements aren't divided into two parties, but if they nevertheless comes to power, Mussolini still wants to recreate the Roman Empire and Hitler still wants to do settler-colonialism all over eastern Europe. But without the Soviet Union, the forces to stop them are vastly weaker, in war industry and popular commitment. Russia could have been like France, horribly divided with many generals seeing the Russian socialists as more their enemy than the Germans.

SwagMasta420

And to the idea that Germany could have won WWII if they didn't attack USSR, well, the book "The Wages of Destruction" by Adam Tooze lays out how the Nazi economy was a disaster always threatening to collapse, and that it had to be sustained by the war, specifically, using the Eastern Front as Germany's Africa, or perhaps North America, or South America... a source of slave labour and resources. Without understanding that you cannot understand why Germany did what it did in WWII at all.

Patrick Holt

That was just the admission of what had happened. Half the western left already knew. It was going to be admitted at some point, because the CPSU was still largely staffed by people of integrity.

Hilary is Pant-suited Syphilis

You’re absolutely right in your analysis but then we wouldn’t have that absolute banger of the Soviet anthem.

Alex Gullen

You had me at, ‘the last car in the train, the caboose of European capitalism’ 😂🤣😂

William

You just countered your own fucking argument dude - I am currently 70% of the way through wages of destruction and I mostly agree with your characterization of it but the point that book makes iss contradictory to "the USSR is the sole reason Germany lost"

William

I haven't read your special book, but your argument is, "I'm right because I'm repeating this 1 argument from this 1 book". Like, fucking really dude? Do you not realize you're trying to win a patreon comments fight by essentially hitting them in the head with the book, not its actual arguments?

SF

Matt Crossin and SwagMasta420 going at each other is a real "let them fight" moment lol

William

Probably a bit pedantic; As I understand it, not having read capital 1or2 yet, Marxism iss a critique of capitalism, and I struggle to see how you "practice" it. The main gist I get from the analysis is that we should push for democratic control of the surplus value generated by our work. I think your main point, though, is actually doing something, right?

William

I don't think Matt gets any pleasure from people getting mad - I think he gets pleasure from talking, period. I don't think there's really anything useful out of this discussion- it all feels like mental masturbation

MoldyTolge

I still can’t make up my mind about the Intro. Would love to hear the other takes of Danny doing carnival barker voice

Corey JOHNSTON

Hardly caping for the victims of communism memorial fund. I’m a die hard socialist. But the brand of socialism the Soviet Union displayed did generations of damage for the movement. And you dumb asses want to resurrect it. I’m losing all hope in humanity.

Alexander Swart

The more I think about the episode the less value I think it adds. I was genuinely interested in hearing how such an overt counterfactual statement like "The USSR not existing would benefit the left" could be argued, but literally hearing the argument that there would be a less effective Red Scare and thus left movements in the Imperial Core would have succeeded is such a cop-out. Even IF such things came to pass, and a welfare capitalism set in for the USA and Europe, how the fuck does that actually benefit the international working class? How does this avoid the chauvinistic positions of Social Democracy leaving intact the enslavement of the world's population? Why would the USSR not existing mitigate or expel colonial relationships? The international working class by and large ISN'T in the imperial core, and they didn't talk about anything outside of America or Europe in this.

K U

Stalin is the most successful dictator in world history. Others who could have done what he did? What he did was unprecedented. No single person has ever held as much power as he did. He basicallly enslaved 100 million peasants in collectivization and held life or death power over everyone in Eurasia. Even the insanity of the purges, which others would not have done and was 100% counterproductive, is unfathomably hard to imagine being done under another dictator. Could Hitler have killed off half his elites, gauleiters, his generals, his inner circle, the secret police that was doing the killings, and still retained the same amount of power? The idea of Stalin as the grey blur is an absurd myth started by Trotsky, and is an insane thing to believe given the facts.

Aric Jeffries

Marx and especially Engels describe Marxism as scientific socialism, which is to say that you practice Marxism by experimenting, assessing what worked and what didn’t, and then returning with that new knowledge to experiment more. Lenin’s Bolsheviks were the first to successfully put Marxism into practice, but they did so after years of their own failures and the failures of people of the Paris Commune for example. The point being that Bolsheviks weren’t waiting for a new version of “leftism” to show up, but were actively trying to put Marxist theory into practice. The entire New Left psyop was intended to remove the practice part of the equation, to put it back into the realm of the theoretical, and when you do that it’s very easy to become cynical and alienated.

Ligma

I don't really see any reason to believe that someone else couldn't have done the same thing. Sure he held a lot of power, but I don't think if Stalin were never born it would change everything anymore than if Hitler were never born. I think anyone in Stalin's position would have become increasingly paranoid purged a lot of people from the inner circle. Hitler couldn't have killed all the generals because of the historical circumstances he was in. There were thousands if not millions of similar guys who could've stepped into the role, and there were also millions of guys who could've stepped into Stalin's role.

Ligma

Perhaps if there had been a more socially advanced management of the imperial power structures they would have been able to export that kind of reformed capitalism to the rest of the world and made the whole thing go a lot more smoothly. European social democracy couldn't stop imperialism because those economies were subservient to the US empire which was run by psychos like Allan Dulles and Curtis LeMay. Not saying everything would go perfectly with a social democratic empire, but its possible they would be able to gradually expand the benefits of the welfare state to the periphery and avoid some of the big conflicts like Korea and Vietnam.

Alexander Swart

This is a-material. Social Democracy is traditionally unable to overcome colonial relations, since there IS a material benefit for the national working class to continue those mechanisms of exploitation. The only ways those historically have been overcome have been through liberation movements within the colonized spaces, whether on nationalist grounds or internationalist grounds. Put another way, it is wrong by historical example, by theory, and by political science to assume that national left movements in Europe would be capable of acting outside of the material interests of their domestic working classes to pursue liberation and social benefits toward colonized spaces. And the Social Democratic assumption you're describing here is so part of this episode I find the episode itself to be constrained in its value.

Alexander Swart

No, the self recognized European working class was within Europe. The colonial relations that existed with regard to Africa, India, China, post-Ottoman Middle East, and the value that was being extracted from those places didn't stop being a thing just because the working class there wasn't proletariat or self conscious. And European leftism WAS defined along nationalist lines post-WW1, and even the internationalist elements toward that defined internationalism in the context of a Pan-European movement, not an actual international one. To say nothing of the American movements they referenced, which were also not internationalist in that era. I don't see how these movements would be capable of exerting themselves toward dissolving colonial relations which DO offer material gains for a national working class.

Chris Natale

Based on Matt's analysis of Russia needing to go through bourgeoisification before a communist revolution, does that mean China is making the correct choice with the Deng/Xi turn?

Mark Schneider

So sorry we're not all stupid-- use of the lazy, catch-all smear Tankie against anyone Left and Anti-Imperialist indicates what you are. Why don't you ask some of the family members of dead Iraqis, Chileans, Iranians, Guatemalans, etc. ad infinitum about all the positive things the US Empire brought to them? (Warning, some of these people may not be white and Western like you!!) PS, I'm a Boomer and lived in Latin America for a year, so save your "Millenial" condescension bullshit for a better target.

Alex Gullen

Awesome conversation, I learnt a LOT on this one and was left with a positive outlook as to what may/could come next owing to this insightful analysis. Thanks!

Kyre Earle

Isn't all of that speech discredited in Losurdo

K U

You're talking about huge historical swings as if they're pre-determined. There was nothing pre-determined about collectivization, it was an enormous political risk that destabilized the regime and caused warfare with the peasants. No one besides Stalin would have gone through with it, even Trotsky was walking that back when the peasant crisis came up. If it wasn't for Stalin, there would have been a negotiated capitalism with the peasantry and a massive shift in the regime, along with slower development but far less death. There was nothing inevitable about the 5 year plans, it was an insane gamble that Rykov, Sokolnikov, and most of the government opposed. Stalin insanely, diligintly, pushed it through. Read Stephen Kotkin's Stalin biography to get more info on this.

calvin kilby

ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY. or follow roderick day on twitter because he's nice + responds to polite questions

calvin kilby

also it's fucking absolutely criminal to think how many people haven't read Losurdo. At all.

Calvin Bishop

Out of all the Chapo offshoots this one has to be my favorite. I feel like I learn more about Marxism and leftism (and how it applies to history!) through these conversations than I ever have while reading- or maybe it's just a great supplement showing the application of more abstract theory. Love it, guys!

Kevin C

I hope their is an episode devoted to what if failed assassination attempts succeeded

fxdpt

I don’t see how Germany or France or whatever other country socialism first comes to power in avoids being the boogeyman you talk about if it isn’t Russia. Interesting episode nonetheless.

Julie Baxter

Y'all stirred up the pot good.

Yup

I listen for the theme music

Mad Larkin

I grow my own food and have an ak47 come at me bro

Zach Pierce

Ok. So you’ve critiqued ONE classic Warren Beatty classic “ Bulworth “ / now do “REDS” it’s a bit more interesting than this redress

Zach Pierce

It does make for some of the best scenes in “Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy” to be fair.

Zach Pierce

People have to work and raise families. Cant read 700 page treatises all day

Abdimunim Omar

Which Russian general is Matt referring to as potentially creating a fascist Russian empire?

Ligma

Kornilov probably

Ian Priest

Oh would you look at the time: (Break-the-Chains-O'clock)

Ian Priest

I'm gay with your dad

Ian Priest

Yo this content bussin'. Comment section ought to be very normal.

Calvin C

I would argue Chinese communist party leaders have been bought off and any long term left/international working class project has long stopped being their goal. Similar to the USSR I think they have made the turn toward nationalism over international solidarity/working class corporation of any kind. Also the CCP leadership are all pretty wealthy so couldn’t even be real “working class” leaders.

Sebastian Wittekindt

I’m a bit confused by your assertion that Trotsky refused to accept the failure of the world revolution. Why the hell would he have??? There was a new revolution happening constantly in that period. In Germany there was 1918, 1919, 1923, there was the Spanish revolution in the 30’s, etc; the world revolution was not dead after the Russian revolution by any means and it was the horrible position that Moscow took on these struggles that in many ways ensured their failure. I think it’s frankly pretty far fetched that Trotsky could’ve saved the Stalinization of the Soviet Union had he remained, he probably would’ve just been killed much earlier. The fact that he wasn’t is what allowed him to continue to write throughout the 30’s and provide some of the most clear eyed analysis of that period that we have today.

Ligma

Obviously the benevolence of the labor aristocracy is never going to be enough but it can be a push in the right direction. For example, I'm not sure if the British would've quit India peacefully in 1947 if Labour hadn't taken power. Imagine the bloodshed there could've been if that had gone differently. Workers in the first world may benefit from imperialism in some ways but its also in their interest to -resist wars and colonial occupations which would draft them and their children -resist trade policy which would outsource manufacturing If there had been a powerful labor movement with a greater ability to influence foreign policy I think most of the worst excesses of the cold war could've been avoided.

Trevor Ryan

Really enjoyed this one. One missing ingredient in dialog around how the west reacted and still does to the real manifestation of a communist state is China. These dynamics are happening today. The west can now pin the left identity to fear of the evil and exotic China.

calvin kilby

you're not a "die-hard socialist", you're a liberal.

calvin kilby

then use a bookmark like the rest of the fucking planet

calvin kilby

just read the fucking book dummies. podcasts like this are cool and moderately informative but are ultimately an auditory pacifier.

SwagMasta420

I'm not arguing that the USSR is the sole reason the Nazis lost, it's just the facts that they are the ones who did most of the work, in the end, even though it's true that Hitler's plan and strategy was doomed militarily and economically from the very start. But without the productive juggernaut that was the USSR around to prevent Germany from taking the resources it needed in the first place from Eastern Europe, Hitler's plan would have had a lot more legs. I'm beating you all over the head with a book because it's clear you have all adopted by osmosis a western ideology around WWII without even picking up a single book! Losurdo's book outlines where, why, and who that ideology comes from, and then proceeds to smash it into little pieces. Don't be so afraid of learning!

Behold 666

My favorite episode in this series

Ben L

PepeLa

Ben L

My fav part of podcast is when they don’t talk !!!1!1!

Kinetics Video

I think that's true to a degree, but there is a different development model being applied in China. it's definitely not the neoliberalism that's being imposed by the West. The country is growing and thriving in a time when the West is shriveling away and becoming increasingly deranged. Hard to make comparisons directly, but I think the average Chinese person is seeing more of that new wealth than Americans and Europeans saw in their industrial revolutions. I don't know if you can call what they're doing Communism properly, but it seems clear that the people's well-being is linked to the government's legitimacy in a way that has long not been true in the West.

Kinetics Video

Some interesting stuff to chew on, thanks guys. Will say that a lot of it came off as "What If the Soviet Union Didn't Exist and Other Contingent Stuff Worked Out in an Optimal Way." I think some kind of Red Scare, or Red Scares happen regardless and there is definitely an attempt to characterize Communism as foreign, which may not require an actual foreign state to achieve. We've seen in our own lifetimes urgent foreign threats be manufactured out of thin air and the working class of the 1920s wasn't better informed than we are now. I think splits still happen over the question of working within the limits circumscribed by the repression of the Red Scare or defying those limits, whether that means supporting a Soviet state that actually exists or a more nebulous international Communism.

Ernest Ambrus

The trouble with trying to assert a counterfactual is that, for the most part, people veer toward optimism instead of quieter, more plausible scenarios, as far as the left goes. If the Soviet revolution never happened, and violent militancy remained on the fringes of the western left, what is more likely to have happened is that the left accedes the playing field to SPD-like national bourgeois movements *without* the continual threat of radicalism looming, even earlier than the post-war buyout of workers into the new order. The European left essentially took this route even with the existence of a Soviet power once various communist parties officially gave up the ghost of a proletarian dictatorship. The American left, as usual, would've faired worse in its isolation and class-absent mainstream unions. Otherwise, what is the threat or impetus where slow, measured acceptance of worker demands could not be met? The problem with "problematizing" Lenin and the Soviet experiment is that it reinforces the narrative that only second international styled capitalist core countries could succeed in fomenting revolution, and maybe, that it is the only "legitimate" bearer to that crown. That's a shitlib bridge too far.

Doug Cartel

I feel like the critical difference between this podcast and Great Man Theory of history is that Great Man Theory just completely ignores collective social bodies. In this series Napoleon or Grant are basically pilots of massive social machines they were given the opportunity to control, while Great Men just take social masses like France etc and just remold them completely. I could probably work on this to make it more accurate but I gotta work.

Of course

If Lenin had died, Nicholas II would have composed this show's theme song.

Michael Barbarich

Yeah, these spoils of war and imperial super profits are pretty tight, as I put in 60 hour work weeks doing physically demanding work in a cheese factory and have roughly 300k in medical debt hanging over my head like the sword of fucking damacles. Please, guilt and shame the drowning working class some more. It does wonders building solidarity and strengthens the good feelings they already have for the left. Amazing rhetorical tactics. I'm utterly baffled as to why they seem to be willing to embrace neo fascism with open arms. Perhaps you could beat them over the head some more. They're dumb brutes, they'll eventually come around.

BaeOfPigs

Everyone who’s mad at a PODCAST needs to think “hmm, what would happen if I wasn’t having a tantrum over a podcast and instead took a nice lil nap?” That’s what they should do instead

Danny

worker self organization erasure !

Alexander Swart

Britain did not quit India peacefully - Indian independence is a very large topic to get into, but putting aside the extant militant resistance to the Raj (including Indians serving Axis powers in pursuit of independence), India was the largest volunteer military on the planet in 1947, and the British as a whole didn't have the capacity to hold onto their colony. This would be like claiming that the end of Portuguese imperialism was peaceful because the Carnation Revolution was peaceful while ignoring the very violent and bloody immediate past. It is in the interest of a labor aristocracy to maintain colonial relations. It is entirely possible for a Socially Democratic project could abolish the draft, provide universal healthcare, a Universal Basic Income, free public housing, and so on while still keeping billions under the boot of oppression to do so, and if doing so ends the benefits of welfare capitalism, Social Democratic figures actually have an incentive to end that. A powerful labor movement that isn't internationalist has no reason to end colonial relations, and there was no possibility of an actual internationalist movement in either America or Europe with or without the USSR being present.

Mitchell Nolte

you would think that would be the case and perhaps it is but in all the right wing garbage spewed and parroted at lest what i see in papers and online, it just doesnt seem to stick as well and is not really hammered on, the prevailing doxa still just seems to be that the left means stalinism and gulags and actually now it seems the use of the term "communist" which had almost disappeared as some effective derogatory term, has now returned to be refashioned into something that is not really even referring back to communism as we have historically understood it. Now it is floating around free in the nebulae of radicalising views largely online to be the term now to be pinned to every thing negative about government or progressive culture they can come up with. It has been supercharged with pandemic anti-vax, anti-lockdown crowds and that has blended with Q stuff and all the old conspiracy theories about government mind control. I would think this to be fringe craziness, but i hear it more and more in the general reactionary rhetoric My own sister-in-law who was largely apolitical has during the pandemic been taken down the online paths that started with vaccine questioning and that has turned into complete at times hysterical paranoia about the government now turning our state into a communist nightmare for her, and i knew her to previously be someone who knew nothing about any political ideology but has been convinced there is communism lurking everywhere and i see this on the placards of anti-vaccine protestors too

Ligma

Yes, the British couldn't have held onto India, anymore than the French could've held onto Vietnam. But if it had been Churchill instead of Atlee in charge at that point they might have tried, like how the French government (supported by the Americans) tried to hold onto Vietnam and look how that turned out. If the Carnation Revolution hadn't happened, the fascist Portuguese government would've tried to hold onto their colonies longer. There are powerful reasons for organized labor in the imperial core to oppose imperialism. -Workers die in imperialist wars. I acknowledge that with emerging technological developments it may become easier to maintain an empire without a mass army, but that wouldn't have been the case in the counterfactual where America had a more powerful labor movement in the post-war period. -Imperialism makes it easier for capital to outsource production and draw upon a reserve of labor. There is a similar dynamic to the one between free laborers in the north and slave power in the south. The northerners were turned against their previous ambivalence towards slavery because they saw the competition as a threat to their wages. Even if the business they were in was connected to the slavery system they eventually, both at the level of labor and capital, preferred the rise in commodity prices which would accompany abolition to the continued threat of slavery's expansion to their livelihood combined with the moral argument. I think it is inaccurate to attribute decolonization in the late 20th century solely to resistance by the colonized people. I think a lot of leftists think it is politically correct to think that way, but it just isn't true.

Solarwind

Matt coming out as decidedly pro dengism

Gengeros

So if we are doing alternative histories where historical figures disappear, we need separate episodes on Hilter, Napoleon, Genghis Khan, Muhammad, Yongle Emperor, Alexander the Great, etc.

Carboniferous

Yeah, I just think it's interesting that in the current superpower contest, the US is slowly falling apart (or at the very least, becoming increasingly politically unstable) while China seems remarkably more stable. It's projected to become the world's largest economy very soon, weathered the storm of coronavirus with flying colours compared to western capitalist countries even if you buy the idea that they're hiding a ton of deaths for whatever reason, and is one of the countries where manufacturing was shipped off in large amounts, which gives it an enormous plurality of control over the economy even if they can't yet directly face off against the US. Sure, the Soviets had massive production output, but not quite to this scale with such a massive population. Whether you think China is a totalitarian hellstate or the last real bastion of communism that could save this dying world, it doesn't change the reality that the US seems to be in a weakened state compared to how it was against the Soviets. I'm interested to see how it's gonna play out, to see if China is truly able to transform from essentially capitalism-run-by-communists to outright socialism or if the coming decades of pressure against it from the West are able to prevent that. And what that means for communism as an internationalist project - assuming China is transcendant and becomes the singular superpower, does the global working class in all countries actually do the Revolution™ or we have a bunch of decaying failstates where the working class just slowly die of starvation and lack of provisions, unable to conceive of their own power because the Left has been so associated with China, who they've been propagandized against for so long. Like, what if the boomer generation didn't have the carrot of prosperity being somewhat shared with them by capitalists, and only had the stick of Cold War propaganda? I think that's what the millennials, Gen Z, and Gen Alpha are gonna be experiencing as anti-China rhetoric ramps up in the coming years.

David BS

I am a bit confused with this episode as I think that, independently of the hypothesis, there are several inconsistencies. One for instance cannot say that without the Soviet Union capitalism would have had a more human face snd at the same time believe in the TRPF. There are also some doubtful statements, such as saying that the Soviet Union divided the left implying that without it the labour movement would have been more united, while disregarding all the ’third world‘ revolutions, including the Chinese revolution.

Drew

Awesome ep

rayb0b

This is absolute propagandistic garbage. The thesis of this entire series is obviously that you think American liberalism can (or could have) "moved left," and (between this and the Wallace episode) that is clearly your absolute euphoric utopia. Disgusting. Intellectually lazy in the extreme. Seriously, do better. The idea that there wouldn't be a huge class conflict there in the long run is just monumentally insipid. Not to mention the fact that you completely jettison anticolonial revolutions in the developing world from the Left throughout this entire discussion and the fact that the Soviet Union actually supported those revolutions and made them viable. You can do way better than this.

SF

calm down

Andrew Phillips

I love Hinge Points and I hope Matt and Danny make more soon! Thank you for the great episodes and thoughtful conversations.

Lizabet

I thought the other hinge points were a bit bland but this one really went places. Very nice analysis of Trotsky also

Matt LS

Obviously we would have had a global DeLeonist revolution in 1919.

Kyle Petty

Okay the fact that someone would get so pissed off about an alternate history podcast had me dying! None of this actually happened or could be changed by the podcast, It's a what if exercise from these guys opinion. As far as what you're upset about, these guys are American leftists So why wouldn't they focus on that as their thesis? If they wish that America was moved farther left than yeah of course they're going to talk about an alternate history where that could have happened