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March 24 Update (Patreon)

Published:
2024-03-24 17:00:07
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

Content

Hey look, I have 2500+ followers on Steam. This does not really mean anything (a quarter of the way to five digits I guess?), but the number is bigger than before! Not very large in the scheme of things, but I think okay for a solo dev. Assuming the current paradigm of Steam remains stable, I wonder how high it can go. ^-^

Anyway, if it wasn't clear from last week, I am deep into work on the final battle. I'm putting in good day after good day... and it's only chipping away at the work. Accomplishing everything I want in a conclusion is just a lot.

That said, I'm also making things hard on myself by adding complexity. I don't actually mean insane calculations under the surface or anything - the big killer this week was slight variants. It feels impactful to me to let the player choose X, Y, or Z, but then those interact with different outcomes A and B... and I end up having six different branching paths. And if I'm already going this far, why not have different variant dialogue for everything? @_@

The purpose of TLS has never been complexity for the sake of complexity, of course: the hope is to make the game reactive enough to the player's choices that you feel a meaningful sense of decision and consequence. I want the player to feel like a commander, making important decisions in a battle for the fate of reality. But even though I'm familiar with combinatorial explosion by this point in development, adding just a little more, over and over again, really adds up.

I do worry that some of these variants will go completely unnoticed: players either won't think about it at all, or will assume everything always turns out one way regardless. I hope the combination will still produce a positive effect, and at minimum everyone opening the game files will see my absurdity.

Sometimes I also wonder how many of these branches will almost never (or maybe actually never) be experienced. Is someone who plays 100+ hours of TLS really going to go into the final battle just not doing the harem quests?

The final battle is not intended to be a feat of insane optimization, for the record. If players go in straight from the beginning of the endgame segment, they'll definitely fail, but if you do everybody's personal request, then you'll be getting largely positive results. These are (mostly) clearly tied to your efforts, so hopefully it will feel rewarding even if you never see all the bad outcomes? That is my thought process in designing, anyway.

Well, I have rambled long enough. I am plugging away and will continue to do so.

Files

Comments

cpip

Well, see, now I DO want to try not doing some of the harem quests, or making various somewhat unusual or more-or-less obviously "wrong" choices and seeing how it shakes out. If nothing else, after it's all said and done, I'd love to see all the different flags.

WaxerRed

It’s good to hear you are having good days! Take all the time you need to make these last few updates as perfect as you want. I (and most others here) are happy to wait as long as it takes!

ThomWithAnH

I appreciate the variations greatly. When I sing the praises of this game (often), I talk about how I started a second playthrough and was BLOWN AWAY by how different everything was. The choices in this game are so meaningful and create this atmosphere that I just haven't found elsewhere. I know it must take an amazing amount of dedication and effort so, once again, I want you to know I appreciate it. Keep up the exemplary work.

Besrodio

I'll chime in and say that the differences are definitely noticed. While the major plot events remain the same, the game has always done a great job of having your influence upon them matter greatly with tangible impacts. It's not always 1:1 obvious how any one decision affected things, but it's always obvious that your decisions have affected things. Also I'm absolutely going to make a 'minimum' playthrough once the final battle comes out, where I see how horrible things get if I just do as little as possible. It's definitely a game that's already worth going through multiple times to see differences.

Mycroft

Do not underestimate the fanbase. While I personnaly hate to "underperform" in a game, many player love to try a "worst playthrough" when it add something. And when I see the discord, I think that, once finished, the game will be replayed. A lot.

Runcible Technician

Never say never. Some teenager out there is gonna sneak this game and become obsessed with it, playing different paths for the next few decades of their life. Thats before you think that maybe in two hundred years it might become a cultural trend to find ancient video games with good bar scenes. You never know.

Decarabia

I had those thoughts before, on a way smaller scale, when I was developing a romhack for some friends. Building branches upon branches sometimes can feel like a waste. But as others said, some people will definitely explore it thoroughly. Think of the video essays this game will inspire! About this part of the player not even noticing, I wonder what you think about implementing some sort of small visual representation on screen when a "variable event" is playing (dialogue that can be altered, for example). I figure it's perhaps not a design intention, since it has not happened until now, or impossible due to rpg maker constraints, but I got curious imagining this feature, so I apologize for rambling. Would it break immersion for some people? Would it make some people more willing to replay? There are so many differences that perhaps this would become even invisible to our attention. Or perhaps this would be the ultimate tool to impress those who don't access the wiki/walkthrough. Anyway, good luck on your work.

Long Tran

I'm all about the harem, so I'm gonna do all of their related shit regardless of whatever else. That's just the kind of greedy bastard I am, pure and simple.

Innocuous

"Sometimes I also wonder how many of these branches will almost never...be experienced. Is someone...really going to go into the final battle just not doing the harem quests?" Me, I'm going to do that. Some personal favorites of sub-optimal choices and negative outcomes: - Reaction to killing only the wolves in Darghelon entrance - Visible growing number of casualties throughout 3rd Arclant War - Robin scene at graveyard when Rachila dies - Slutty Altina is infinitely more entertaining - Lots of scenes in Incubus War (Sabitha eats Orilise, Dari becomes a cannibal, triple teaming Fuzkao immediately, and all the lower path Mestan and Lilith interactions) To ruminate for a moment, I think there's something interesting at the intersection of game design and psychology when a choice is provided where the expectation is a vast majority will make the same choice. If letting players choose A or B, but choosing A is only upside where B is neutral or negative, why put resources into allowing a choice to occur at all when players nearly all choose A? And yet having a choice exist that is a real, actual choice, enhances player engagement with media. Making a 'good' choice feels much better when a 'bad' alternative exists, and making a 'bad' choice and being punished can be its own kind of rewarding because it means the game is actually following through with consequences instead of presenting like a choice exists but then ignoring it. Great games handle this kind of choice well. Undertale lets the player alternate killing/sparing instead of forcing them down one extreme or the other, Stardew Valley lets the player sell out to capitalism, and Dark Souls lets the player kill NPCs and merchants. If you look up Witcher 3 there's still people making videos are rare/unique quests, interactions, and dialogue. For TLS, providing consequences for failing to do personal requests (or doing them poorly) will make the act of doing those quests more rewarding to the majority (because the real choice to do them avoids a consequence) and still entertaining to the minority (who will intentionally seek out the consequences). Anyway, eagerly anticipating final content.

Dragof2

The big thing to my mind is that not only is someone definitely going to post a run of everything going wrong that many people will watch and appreciate, but the fact that having things go well is a *choice*, makes success so much more meaningful (even for those who never go down those routes). I honestly don't know how much of this was on purpose, but Simon's general humility and worry over the consequences of his actions means that one can absolutely roleplay a Simon who is in over his head and barely getting by (his humble statements become accurate self assessments), which I think makes a rough run interesting (it isn't like you aren't accomplishing things, its just a lot more pyrrhic victories). And I like Pathologic 1/2, I love video game Pyrrhic victories.

Runcible Technician

"Truth does not do as much good in the world as the appearance of truth does evil."

Rachnera

> Is someone who plays 100+ hours of TLS really going to go into the final battle just not doing the harem quests? Any% speedrunners at least. ... And now I'm actually curious about how many hours would be needed for such a speedrun.

sierralee

This is something I had not really considered, actually. Is this something that happens in other story-based games? I have... no idea how it would be implemented, really, or if it would be desired by many players.

sierralee

Well, the final battle is going to be chock full of this kind of stuff. Most if it is mundane "You don't get the bonus" stuff, but a few might be entertaining. ^-^

sierralee

There would be some interesting routing questions when it comes to some of the non-combat game overs. It'd probably be solved problem fairly quickly if a TLS speedrunning community existed, but some of the events (especially the final battle) would require some calculations to navigate.

Duncan Lutz

There are variables for the environment and even if an NPC is still alive, such as Kara. Would every line she has count as variable after the Third Arclent War? Honestly, I'd feel it would get in the way of immersion, and prefer it all be "hidden" fun to discover with reloading saves or replaying.

staubgeist

Hi SL currently its not possible to do orris quest is you didnt reopen Ardford or failed to get succubi accepted during Gawnfall. Any plans to allow the quest to be done in the future?

Sundeigh

pretty sure I spent 100+ hours just getting to the "end" two different times back when the end was like the 2nd gathering. So that's 200+ hours for an incomplete game. All of this is to say I can't imagine not diving into things like the harem quests after dedicating that much time to this game/world.

AnythingAtAll

I agree with what everyone has said here, but mainly one point. I'm going to come out and admit that I'm one of those typical players that simply won't go for bad outcomes lol. I can't. I'm too attached to the characters and the world. But the point from everyone that stuck out to me is that being given the choice of a suboptimal outcome makes the choice to pursue the best ones far more rewarding, and just as importantly, an actual choice. It's something the player has to choose to work for, which has a more significant effect than one might think even if the characters will still win no matter what. Most players will get mostly good outcomes, but there will be those who'll work their damndest to get the most optimal outcome, and because of the existence of suboptimal paths, that's still a choice the player can make, one that's also actively and appropriately rewarded every step of the way. I'm one of the players who won't see those bad outcomes, but I deeply appreciate their existence because it makes my active choice to go for the best ones so much more enjoyable.

sierralee

There are various ways to reopen Ardford, right? The current plan is that these events are not possible unless you reopen it. If this is difficult enough I could be persuaded to change my mind, but it would have to be after my current work.

Dubsington

> or will assume everything always turns out one way regardless Truth. I typically play a scene out just by the seat of my pants, then go back and replay it with the wiki open so I can get acceptable results. (This is mostly because I feel like I miss out on a lot of good content if I don't do that, especially where money is involved.) Anyway, the guides and tutorials often will say things like "You got the best result if Orcent starts his analysis with 'Unfortunately things went awry', and the second best result if Orcent says 'My butt hurts'", etc etc. I am always amazed at how far down those go, and how many outcomes you prepared for. I will likely never play most of them but it is truly impressive, and in a way that is hard to describe I appreciate the game more just knowing those branches exist, traversed or not.

staubgeist

I dont have a save since i only saw it on rebellions stream, but he reopened Ardfort and still got the its politically not possible line when visiting Orri. EDIT: i just checked his VOD succubi were not accepted on the 3rd day, does that mean the quest cant be compleated?

sierralee

I looked at the Ardford event and it shouldn't require any specific Gawnfall result. I'm not sure exactly what's going on here, but given my current work, I can't do too much with it unless someone has a detailed report from under the hood.

Dragof2

Holy cow, never thought I'd meet a Pathologic fan outside of a Pathologic forum! Good quote too.

staubgeist

I asked for a save and looked into the switches and played around some of them. Switch 3101 "Restaurant Search" is checked but 3102 "Option open" is not. This causes the its political situation line to be played then asking about Megail Inquiry. Once the switch 3102 is on the Cutscene with . It should probably be set or checked to be set, once you reopen ardford with the 100k investment.

sierralee

To be clear, it is not intended to be possible to open a succubus restaurant in Ardford if succubi were not accepted. However, I've seen that currently there is no way to get this opportunity later. While this is not a bug, I've altered it so that opening Ardford under the proper circumstances will let you finish Orri's quest.

Arramos

Late to this party, but as a shameless optimizer, I'll state that I've enjoyed quite a few branches that are considered "not optimal". It's the little things that make all the difference. The scene with the exotic Stineford prostitute, Simon and Robin disturbed at how easily they bring down an airship, and Wendis torturing the Fucklord. These are all powerful story beats, and most are just a handful of lines! There are many possible suboptimal branches, but that's only from the perspective of "make numbers go up" game mechanics, not the story. Making different choices doesn't result in less content, just different content. And always remember: Never underestimate cuntishness. - Sarai of the Diverging Church