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#191: Paganism and the Logic of Metaphor, pt. 3 (Patreon)

Published:
2023-06-24 04:35:07
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

A simple law of physick: theoglyphics are the counterweight to necroheliosophy. Trust me.

Banner art by D.F. Kennedy

Closing song: Gold & Youth, "Blush"

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Comments

Kamran Husain

i lived in the tip of maine in fort kent wonderful spot of the us canada war where a cow was the only casualty

Jon Spiegler

Glad to know who you are, MJ

Stubb’s Pipe

Really interesting analysis of Athena in the Odyssey. What do you make of the metaphor of Apollo in the Iliad, particularly when he brings plague to the Argives to avenge his priest?

Joseph Sullivan

This is fascinating, I think it’s one of the best podcasts I’ve ever heard. I’m glad I read the illiad and the odyssey (both fagles) in the past month. The gods emerging from or being metaphors makes sense, I’m just trying wrap my head around their degree of anthropomorphisation. Were the Greeks conscious of them as metaphors, or were they both metaphor and being? Like when diomedes wounds Aphrodite and gores ares in the balls, all at the behest of Athena, would the Greeks have heard that as a parable that indicated the superiority of brilliance and wisdom over lust and wrath? Something like the beauty contest between Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite judged by Paris seems to lend itself to that easy kind of reading, where the culture is articulating what it values in a parable. I have no idea how greek works as a language, but I wonder if in the original the gods come off more as personalities/characters or as nebulous webs of associated images that alchemize into metaphor? IDK, but this podcast makes all of what I’m reading way more rich and interesting. Thanks for doing it.

dimdimKing

Poetry's the covalent blob stanza of mouth-sounds

Jaime Christley

the pantheon of thunder gods, let's go: 1) Zeus

Jaime Christley

so the dawn is [figure out color later] [fingers?] and whatnot, Odysseus said to his boys let's get the fuck out of here, this place is washed. and so we're going ham on the [what color is water? too drunk; fix later] sea with our oars and everybody's like Damn, we lost some of our guys back there but at least we're alive, I mean sometimes you gotta take the good with the bad, and anyway there shouldn't be any problems from here on out. And Odysseus goes Yeah, that is so true haha, but weirdly he doesn't look anybody in the eye and he's very sweaty.

John Turnbull

bird steals the ball, blocked by lebron, the shot, etc. this is yours, MSJ

Jace

On your point about the origin of eukaryotic cells, I honestly think you undersold the degree to which endosymbiosis is accepted doctrine for the origin of some organelles. Mitochondria and chloroplasts (but especially mitochondria) are essentially confirmed to have started as endosymbiotic bacteria within other bacteria, and that their presence (and the increased energy it provided to the cell) helped spur the development of eukaryotic cells. I've really enjoyed your integration of biological concepts into this series (the section on the Talmud in the last show has some strong parallels to nucleic acids, introns/exons, and such that I think really strengthen the thesis). As someone peripheral to that whole world, I think there is definitely a pseudoreligious/spiritual current brewing in modern biology (and to an extent physics, but I know less about that) as the fractal patterns you (rightly) identify as gods become more and more apparent.

r b

more relevant to the last episode but i was behind a car yesterday with a Grateful Dead vanity plate and a Moms For Liberty bumper sticker. Sometimes the Universe winks at you.

Aodhan

Really enjoyed this episode! I’d be really interested in how this ties into the Popol Vuh and, regarding poetry, the poetry of Federico García Lorca. Excited for more!

Byron’s Glowing Filament

This was sick. I’ll be teaching The Iliad next year so this gives me so much amazing material. Also, would just like to say thanks for introducing me to Gold & Youth. I’ve probably listened to that album 40 times through at least. Maudlin Days being my favorite. So many of the songs have brought tears to my eyes. Powerful shit.

Justin Hastings

Really enjoyed this + the comments. But I find myself haunted by a particular set of words from one of the most evil men to ever exist: “what’s this gotta do with Pussy?”

ggmacd

I know you don't intend this podcast to be taken as investing advice but after hearing it I took all of my money out of The Sea and put it in Thunder and it's changed my life.

Peter James

Michael, this is probably one of the best episodes of DC and I’m incredibly thankful that I got to hear it. Also, why were you in Portsmouth, NH? I grew up there and across the border in Maine and am shocked that you would have ever ended up there for a moment.

Brook Hines

did a presentation for a Phil of Mind seminar that was a treatment of your core concept—but presented in the language of Idealism vs materialist philosophy. the punchline was that arts/math/myth/magic will always be ahead of philosophy, and our job (as philosophers, to some extent) is to ground the “way out” (arts, math, myth, magic, etc) into material existence. I’d specifically used german expressionists + cubists to illustrate the concept of pure idea manifest on canvas. my prof was a doctrinaire materialist, and i was doing way too many psychedelics at the time to appeal to his biases. so this was a “fuck it” moment. but it turned out that I got through to him. seriously one of the brightest spots of my college career—and one of those that came in a flash of inspiration at the last minute before the project was due (ofc).

Brian

I’m loving this series so much! Have ever read Spinoza? That’s my point of reference for some of what you’re talking about.

Skeleton Key

Was Lynn Margulis who you were reaching for? I don't think she theorized beyond the mitochondria, but she was definitely the first proponent of Endosymbiosis. She was cast as a crank for it for a while, though as Jace notes it's basically universally accepted now. This whole episode whipped ass so much, you've connected dots here that I've never seen fleshed out before, and the simplicity of it—for anyone who has dipped into the origins of language and divinity—makes one (me) feel pretty dense not to have seen it this way before. Julian Jaynes thought that gods were imperatives delivered by the unconscious at a time in human history when full consciousness had not yet arisen. I don't really subscribe (though Jaynes is such a joy to read), but now I wonder if he wasn't closer to the mark than I thought. Even if the bicameral mind doesn't quite add up, there's really not a ton of difference between imperatives and insights; both clarify action.

Bored at Work

I just had an argument with my mom who converted and raised me Muslim. The Florida nightclub shooting wasn't wrong because those gay men didn't deserve to die but because they weren't tried by a sheik......is her pint of view. We just got into it in this oroed weekend. Interesting you opened w/ my ex religion and wonderful points. I'm going to send this to her but I'll probably end up in another argument with her. Idk.

Gorgo

This series has been incredible. One thing that has popped into my head with this new depth of understanding to language and metaphor, as well as God... does the Tower Of Babel myth factor in as a cultural phenomenon to this interpretation? Maybe the swelling human tribes saw their languages, gods, and metaphors being diluted by cross pollination and fashioned a cautionary tale?

Pilperl

This ep has me thinking about when I lived in the desert and the delicate process of relocating a rattlesnake when it shows up in your backyard. Apparently, moving a rattlesnake more than even half a mile disorients the poor snake so thoroughly that its survival rate drops below 50%. If you find a rattlesnake on a south-facing slope with an arroyo to the southeast, for example, you should try to relocate it to another nearby south-facing slope with an arroyo to the southeast. Part of the danger of relocation is just that their first impulse is to return home, and that journey can be treacherous. But I also get the sense that their entire understanding of world (night/day, food water tree rock etc.) is shattered by the relocation, which rhymes for me with the language as metaphor stuff in this ep, like I would prolly keel over too if the whole metaphorical bedrock of my world was yanked out from under me.

Jaime Christley

I got my Songline tight. Worked on it for over 36 years. Gave Sirius XM the exclusive. Now I’m fucked.

spouter

Well done episode. Alphabets and phonics have regained a central place in my life, so I felt this deeply. First, I wanted to urge you to join Substack. Don't make extra content, just post the pod there and interact on Notes instead of twitter, which is dead and needs to be dead. Substack is good because it preferences long-form, long-engagement content like yours and mine. it has a podcast function So my son's autistic--really, not just neuroatypical or whatever--and he's been very obsessed with alphabets his whole life. He loved learning his ABCs when he was younger (he's now 7), and enjoyed it so much that he realized he could keep learning other alphabets in other languages, so he's super fixated on the Greek alphabet, the Russian alphabet, and the Uzbek alphabet in particular, and has basically replaced the English alphabet with the Spanish one in his scripting...there is something magic to him in the connection between the symbol and the sound, and this episode helped me understand why

big_frog

One of my fave episodes. @MJ, are you familiar with Hans Blumenberg? Lotta resonances w his work

John Waaben

Will future episodes discuss legendary, and perhaps even mythic, Pokémon?

michael ferlazzo

Clive Gamble's archeological works, particularly Origins and Revolutions, are an interesting read on metaphor and the construction of language and identities in the Paleolithic. I know too many archeologists to ever take them seriously, seen too many of my family agape at Josh Gates to respect them, but...there are some good ones out there.

diane bluegreen

the first time i listened to this,i was totally confused. i can at times understand complex things,but it just takes some time for me. so,i listened to this a second time,and my mind was blown. thank you for organizing and conveying your thoughts on this,and sharing it in such a wonderful way with us.

agentmule

It's metaphor all the way down

Nathan

Returning to this one for at least the 10th time, possibly more. Still pulling new insight from it each time. Do you have any specific further reading on Egyptian mythology and cosmology that you recommend?

Yash H

This episode and series blew my face off. Any texts anyone can recommend re: linguistics pertaining to the ancient Greeks and their myths? Or any other writing on the transmutation of God between ancient and modern times. Besides Heidegger which he mentioned.