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Thank you so much for the support! You guys and grrls are awesome!

Ahhhh! Done with the fight scenes for a few pages at least, and back to the characters being goobers. The meat and potatoes of this comic. Feels good. Also not having to draw a bunch of speed lines feels good too. I mean, obviously I have some huge speed line templates that I cut and paste, because there's usually no point to doing a unique radial burst for each panel, but still. There's more to good speedlining that just laying lines over or under some action, as I'm realizing, but hey, that's the job. Still, I wouldn't say no to 3 or 4 Japanese interns who put in 16 hour days doing mind-numbing background work. Man if I could get that for a single page... well, that page would probably just be an establishing shot of a massive city, because that shit is tedious. That or a lot of rubble. 

There was some debate on the previous page about whether Max qualifies as a "Mary Sue," which in its current common usage, is a term I generally don't like. Because the original Mary Sue was specifically a female character who is great at everything, but most importantly, also an author self-insert. Unfortunately, the current common usage seems to have become "any competent female character." Without the author self-insert part, it almost always feels like the person complaining about a female character being good at stuff is really zeroing in on the female part of the equation, and that becomes extremely evident when you ask them, "Is Batman a Mary-Sue?" Because Batman is a billionaire playboy who is better at literally every single physical activity than Olympic equivalents, is also the world's greatest detective, can outfight like 20 ninjas at a time (dudes who have spent their entire lives training only to be deadly fighters and don't waste any time on that detective stuff or solving riddles) has all the gadgets, up to and including his own fighter jet armed with a variety of missiles, which is probably illegal for a private citizen in a much bigger way than vigilante justicing some thugs in an alley, has his own space station with orbital strike capabilities, which, again, probably illegal in a way that the entire U.N. might care about, etc, etc. The Mary Sue-accusers usually say, "No, because Batman loses fights all the time." Right, he loses fights, (usually so he can get thrown in a deathtrap only to quickly escape) but never the war. If a female billionaire playgirl gadgeteer, etc got her back fucking broken rather famously, then recovered and was basically completely fine afterward and proceeded to beat up Bane, I feel like they would get "Mary Sue" lobbed at them. What about James Bond? What about Iron Man? Riddick? John Wick? Mary Sue or just the main character of a franchise who necessarily has to win in the end so the franchise can continue?

But here's a serious question. If Maxima is a Mary Sue (the non-author insert kind, obviously) because she's powerful and wins fights… is Saitama? (From One Punch Man if you didn't know his name.) Saitama is probably exempt because his strength and battle record are almost entirely played for laughs. Also he's male. I guess the real question is if Maxima was Maximus, would anyone even think of accusing him of being a non-author-insert Mary Sue? Cause I've never seen anyone accuse Batman of being a Mary Sue out of the blue, it only ever happens when someone asks the guy who's accused a female character of being one if Batman is also one, and accuser guy suddenly feels defensive about getting called out for being sexist.

If you think seeing Maxima win a bunch of high-level fights with relative ease is a little boring, that's fine. That's a totally valid criticism - even taking into account that she entered specifically because she analyzed previous tournaments and was fairly certain she could probably win with relative ease. That's still a valid criticism, because it's on me to relay an entertaining version of those events.

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Comments

Chris Giesy

I would probably take a while to set up such a button for anyone but it would be worth it.

William Burns

I don't feel Maxima is a Mary Sue. I feel she has 'adequate plot armor.'

Cha0sniper

I've come to the conclusion over my years of reading fiction that there is no such thing as a Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu. Or rather, in the case where the situation exists, what the person is actually complaining about is bad writing. And yes, a disturbing percentage of the time the term is thrown about at female characters, it's due to sexism. Often unconscious sexism, but sexism nonetheless.

Sarazarus

I don't really feel Maxima is a Mary sue, but also, I feel genere is a necessary element of mary sue-ism. A superhero, by virtue of being, well, a superhero, is inherently powerful and good at many things. Mary sues stem from romance fanfiction, and I believe the key element being ignored here is not the self-insert nature, but the absolute perfection of the character in an enviroment where such perfection makes no god-damned sense. Normal human relationship drama with a 15 year old girl who has everything; good looks, perfect morals, adorable personality, is a dancer, martial artist, a bookworm that knows everything, etc, while everyone around is a normal human being with flaws is jarring. So batman is not a mary sue in a superhero comic. Batman in a hallmak movie would definitely be.

Just a guy

Worth noting but oracle/batgirl HAS been called a mary sue quite often.

Connor B

Oh, thought something interesting was happening to Sydney for a second. Oh well

Vanestus

Okay, that was a pretty great prank on Cora's part.

BW78

Mary Sues are Mary Sues not because they are female self-insert characters who are good at everything, it's because they are characters who are good at everything without any explanation beyond being author self-inserts.

Czarzhan

For a second, I honestly thought Sydney fell asleep/ forgot to take her meds

Anton Schleef

Cora, it's not a good idea to mess with the ship's medic's girlfriend in a manner that has her questioning her sanity, or the sanity of the universe. Especially if said girlfriend is bonded to Nth Tech.

Anton Schleef

Hell, until today I was never really sure just what a 'Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu' was supposed to be, as the examples were inconsistent and all over the place. Also, I take it that, if you watch any anime or read any mangas or light novels, you've never encountered a (Reverse) Harem Isekai? Almost half of them the author openly admits that the MC is just a self-insert OP character, which going by Dave's rant perfectly fits the classical definition of a Mary-Sue or Gary-Stu. There are even a few that lack the harem elements that the author has admitted to the ridiculously OP MC being a self-insert.

Anton Schleef

As people had been horribly inconsistent on what a Mary-Sue is before this, I'd mostly ignored the entire character classification. I wouldn't say that your argument regarding Batman makes good sense (maybe if he had a super power other than being filthy rich, as he's _supposed_ to be a baseline human, not a Super), but the majority of the argument is solid. A character being good at seemingly everything just because they're a self-insert for the author (or that being why they're significantly OP) is going to be jarring regardless of the setting, not just romance settings.

Killianti

I never really considered "Marry Sue" to be a feminine trope. I've seen some people use "Garry Stu" to talk about male characters which implies that the name "Marry Sue" is female-specific, but it also implies that trope as a whole is gender neutral. I think, to qualify as a Marry Sue, a character must be devoid of flaws or their only flaws are fake flaws like perfectionism that is never shown to slow them down. Maxima has enough actual flaws that cause conflict that I don't consider her to be a Marry Sue.

Andrew Denton

Because there's nothing more Mary Sue than being shot in the spine and confined to a wheelchair. 🙄

Phoenix

IDK, Maxima was specifically here to be a *ringer* to win everyone a ton of cash, and yet has had two close calls at least. Hardly Mary Sue levels of competency I am afraid. She needs to step up her game. Also, Maxima will need to seduce *at least* two male characters, preferably ones that have pre-existing established love interests who they will inexplicably choose to revile after seeing the sparkly highlights in her hair or become enchanted by the heterochromia + golden glow-y circles around her pupils or her ever shifting constellation of cute freckles...

Greg Morrow

Max winning fights is what's known as "competence porn" (coined by John Rogers with respect to Leverage). There is joy in watching characters who are good at what they do do what they do.

Playwars

I am so tired of people screaming 'Mary Sue !'. I write novels with a lot of female character (read, more than the MC's love interests in positions of power), and the piles of screaming I get...Almost always it's followed by "there are too many women in the story/having so many women in positions of power is unrealistic". FYI, I write novels with literal magic and engineered societies. That should tell you everything you need to know about the 'realism' part. Basically, I've learned that it's almost always misogyny. Pure and simple. Especially since I generally get praised for complex and flawed characters that need a bunch of officers and allies to cover their weaknesses.

James C

Don't forget that they're not merely skilled at things, they excel to the point of outdoing and impressing the canon in-universe experts. And with lots of "told" achievements instead of "shown" ones.

gaijin 99

Naah, the core trait of a Mary Sue is that reality and the plot twist around to make EVERYTHING about them and whatever mawkish power fantasy the author has in mind. Simply being super powerful is far from sufficient.

SpokenSoftly

Back when I still saw the term being used at all, I mostly saw it in either the context of "I do not like this character's personality" or "I think the setting or other characters have been twisted to make this character more impactful." Amusingly, I remember the latter sort of accusation on a Geocities Harry Potter fic back in the 00s. It was written right after book 5 came out, and introduced an OC to replace Umbridge. The OC was Snape's school friend who redeemed him through the power of love, and he'd actually been a secret double-agent the whole time.

TrixieTurner

I think what prevents max from being a Mary sue is the fact she does get shit from other characters, she’s shown as being uptight a kill joy a party pooper and ruffled by people who aren’t a bummer. Which is a big part of the story, the fighting and action are just like a side thing that sometimes pops up longer than you’d want. So showing her being the butt of the joke and getting clowned on prevents her from being a Mary sue. If this was just straight up a battle style story with the action and fights being front and center the meat and potatoes of the story then you’d have more of an argument, even these fights aren’t oh wow look maxima has a challenge it’s more goofy stuff like look at these fighters being goobers or here’s a gag of them being like well that just ain’t fair.

BJ

I want one of those buttons.

Stephen Gilberg

In certain circles full of nerds, You’ll find among the slangy words A name whose use is rarely due. The term I mean is “Mary Sue.” It started with a Star Trek fic, A parody whose central chick Was way too good to ring quite true. That character was Mary Sue. Since then, the fans have used her name To designate a type of shame. Alas, they disagree on who Should qualify as Mary Sue. For starters, does it have to be A heroine or other “she”? No manly label ever grew As popular as “Mary Sue.” A double standard reared its head: A hero who was male instead But otherwise was perfect too Might not be deemed a Mary Sue. And must it be a fanfic lead? Does canon count? It’s not decreed, But many famous figures do Behave a lot like Mary Sue. By now, the term’s become too broad, As someone who is greatly flawed Or evil or whose tale is blue Can also be a Mary Sue. That’s not a wish fulfillment type. It seems to me the time is ripe To end this nonsense; now I’m through With ever using “Mary Sue.” --me

Cha0sniper

Oh, I've read a bunch of those. That's part of why I came to the above conclusion, because I enjoy a good self-indulgent story as long as it's well-written.

Jared

Riddick is DEFINITELY a Mary Sue, complete with author/actor self-insert.

Hugh Eckert

Mary Sue's mother's making Mary Sue marry me, My mother's making me marry Mary Sue. I'm gonna marry Mary so my Mary will kick butt for me, We'll all be feeling merry when I marry Mary Sue!

Kevin Wright

Very this. The name comes from a character in a Star Trek fanfic that was written deliberately to illustrate the concept of author self-inserts who are just amazingly good at everything for no reason and with no effort, in this case a female character who has no flaws whatsoever other than being overly cheerful and wholesome, is a top student at Starfleet Academy, brilliant at, well, everything, and of course assigned to bridge crew on the Enterprise right out of the Academy.

Aclys

Maxima is not a mary sue for several reasons. One: She's not always right. Two: she accepts that she's wrong when someone tells her what's up and listens to good advice when she gets it instead of Always being the source of "good advice", regardless if said advice would actually be good without author fiats. Three: While powerful, Maxima is in fact not good at everything, she has shit she's a noob on like the dating thing and even when it comes to big super fights she finds she can learn a thing or two from Sydney and her genre-savvy expertise. In short, Maxima is a character, she's clearly one of the top tier powerhouses of the setting, like superman to the justice league, Homelander to the Seven, Omniman to the guardians of the globe. . . Hang on, I sense a pattern... Anyway! The point is that None of those characters are marty sues and neither is she, she's more powerful than most supers for a clear and actual reason, being a metal + whatever that gold stuff is enhancing her. Heck she's not even the protagonist of the comic and we've had plenty of scenes showcasing many, many other characters of the setting being badass in their own ways. Now once the comic starts being all maxima all the time, Sydney retires from the super gig after leaving her orbs to Maxima who can clearly put them to better use and Deus decides to abandon all his evil schemes and instead devotes his resources and intellect to providing ultimately redundant aid in elevating the golden goddess to her rightful place as leader of earth, then the galaxy. Then I guess we can worry abit about the sue factor.

Jeremy Jorgensen

You keep SAYING she isn't a self insert, but I bet you really are covered in golden skin and are strong enough to lift a pyramid!

Eric Loken

"Unfortunately, the current common usage seems to have become "any competent female character." Without the author self-insert part" I know exactly what you mean. I saw some idiot once complain when he thought James Bond was becoming Jane Bond that this was a horrible Mary Sue, and I asked "why is a female superspy a Mary Sue when the male one is fine?" I have seen an alternate version of the sexist complaint, where someone doesn't like something and figures if they call a character a Mary Sue then it is an objective complaint of terrible writing instead of subjective personal taste and therefore anyone who doesn't agree is automatically *wrong*! It's not quite as bad as the sexist version, but close. I also had an argument where someone complained about Shepard (Mass Effect) being a Mary Sue, I argued that the character was hardly unique in that regard, and when it comes to video games of course it's a Mary Sue, THAT'S THE POINT! Most video games are power fantasies for the player, so they can be the hero, bad ass, jerk, whatever that they could never be in real life. The person argued that the Vault Dweller and Lone Wanderer (Fallout 1 and 2) weren't Mary Sues, to which I was like "then you weren't paying attention". In most video games the main character is WAY more capable than everyone else is, and anything that happens is because the MC makes it happen, other than the Evil Plot, nobody else is making change in the world, only The MC does, and in Fallout they make a LOT of change in the world (the final scenes explaining the consequences of their actions shows that). I try to stick with the original definition of Mary Sue, an OP character, they can fail, but it is rare and usually come back to a stellar victory, everyone likes them even their enemies respect them, and probably an author self insert. The second and third don't have to both be there, but one of them must be. I've seen a few over the years, and they don't necessarily make the story bad - I read a book where the MC was pretty clearly a Mary Sue, but was still a fun read - but you should be aware of them. As for Max? It's a super hero comic, she's this universe's Superman. Actually even with her power she still isn't on par with silver age Superman. I don't think she's a self insert, and not everyone loves her, and while powerful, for a super hero comic there has been worse. So, no, I don't think she is.

Chimera80

Mary/Marty Sue doesn’t just refer to being powerful. It also has an element of the person always being in the right, always having the moral high ground - anyone who disagrees with them is automatically evil Key point: the MS is shown to be more competent than established characters *in their field of expertise*, often without the requisite background and training. And yes, all the people falling in love with them. Eg: Rey being able to fix the Millennium Falcon with a workaround that Han would never have thought of, and using advanced force techniques against someone with far more training than her. (Note that these are note simply matters of physical reflex or perception)

Chimera80

Not a Mary Sue. Just OP. There is a significant different.

He Who Must Drink Some Coffee

For anyone who complains about women in positions of power, just tell them Indira Gandhi, Golda Meier, Margaret Thatcher, and Angela Merkel would like a word with them...

William Burns

Both, I feel, are the case. If Dave decides to nerf Maxima, I think it will end up being interesting.

eddi_TBH

Sydney coming unglued is always good for a laugh. Poor Frix's whiskers though. That's gotta hurt.

eddi_TBH

I thought the broadcast included local interactive AI for a small extra fee.

eddi_TBH

Mary Sue characters have been around forever. I cite Sherlock Holmes. Or rather Watson. Or both. Maybe even Gilgamesh.

eddi_TBH

I think his self-insert is Math.

eddi_TBH

For Cora, the risk is 90% of the fun.

eddi_TBH

I have dreamed my way through several movies over the decades. Seeing them later all the way through is confusing.

Rob T

Sydney might have caught on if she noticed the costume of our scantily clad announcer. The costume is wrong. Lol

Anton Schleef

While true, Cora should _really_ think twice about triggering an unstable rampage from someone who has the potential to be *too* OP for an Unlimited Class Battle Arena. The rest of the galaxy would appreciate not having multiple star nations wiped out like that.

Eric Loken

Yes, very probably Watson. Holmes was an arrogant jackass and an addict, so those tend to offset his mind. But Watson was very likely a self-insert, although maybe not OP. Perhaps both of them combined are the Mary Sue, but split into two people so as to not make it as bad? The official Mary Sue came from old Star Trek fan fiction in the early to mid 1970s. Mary Sue IIRC was a parody of writers - mostly women - who would write themselves as characters on the Enterprise who would save the day and outshine the main characters and everyone loved them because of how amazing they were and their descriptions tended to be idolized versions of the author (a few pounds less, better hair, bigger boobs, taller, whatever). But yes, the basic concept has been around forever. Even if not a self-insert, the sheer OP character that could best the challenges of the gods (Hercules for example) has been around for a very long time.

Anton Schleef

I can mostly agree with that last part. I just get tired of the ridiculously OP MC, even when well written, when they don't have a decent reason for why the MC is ridiculously OP. It's a big part of what I like about "Didn't I Say to Make My Abilities Average in the Next Life" as well as a small part of the charm of "Trapped in a Dating Sim: The World of Otome Games is Tough for Mobs" (though that one's more about watching the MCs plans blow up in his face).

eddi_TBH

Doyle based Sherlock's deductive ability on one of his instructors at medical school. The rest of the damage was over-dramatizing the ease with which he got bored. Also Doyle got bored of him.

eddi_TBH

I thought she's had the Leelo costume all this time?

tsukiouji

I miss the days of Tenchi Muyo, when harem protagonists weren't ludicrous gods

tsukiouji

Okay but now I want Batman in a Hallmark movie

Anton Schleef

I know what you mean. They were so much more endearing and enjoyable then. Also, Tenchi Muyo! GXP is my favorite of the Tenchi animes.

Rob T

She does, but on the real announcer, the boob strap is under the vertical strap, the spoof is over

Shremedy

While it is overused, that doesn't negate the very existence of the trope, nor invalidate correct usage. To understand the proper definition of a Mary Sue, you have to go all the way back to where the term originated...Star Trek fanfic of the 1970's. Meaning, TOS, back when that's all there was, and it was abandonware (until the 80's when The Motionless Picture was released). Fanfic writing was very female-oriented; creative male fans tended to do things like create tabletop games instead. Ensign Mary Sue would be a self-insert of varying degrees of blatentcy, typified by two of more of the following: (1) having an invented/retconned blood relationship with one of the main characters (for example, Michael Burnham. Just how many human chicks did Sarek bang, anyway?!). (2) tragic backstory (3) effortlessly being as proficient if not more proficient than one or more major characters in their own area of specialty (Rey Whatever-her-surname-is-this-week); this includes successfully romancing "untouchable" characters like Spock {thank Ghod NOT Michael Burnham) (4) having plot armor nearly as impenetrable as legacy main characters despite being far junior (5) having surface or easily finesse-able personality flaws that present no significant obstacle to the character -- may hearken back to the tragic backstory (if present) . Or go the other way and min-max (any GURPS players out there ever seen an Alcoholic, Short-Tempered, Gluttonous character with Dwarfism?). Everybody loves and respects the Ensign, and if they don't, it's because they're clearly villains, disrespect the tragic backstory, or are just plain jealous. As far as the male version goes, if you like him, he's Rambo, if you don't, he's a Gary/Marty Stu. There are ways to mitigate or subvert the trope

Shremedy

Batman does have an invisibly operating superpower, defined as "Intelligence Drain, Large Radius, Always On, Only vs. Good-aligned Superbeings". This is why he is always the smartest one in the room, and thus indispensible in group operations.

Anton Schleef

I wish I could argue that, but as Superman is demonstrably dumber whenever Batman is around it's a challenge. However, Batman's sidekicks do seem to be immune to it.

Steve Brinich

"I'm not sure that messing with Sydney is a good survival strategy." (p331)

Anton Schleef

That was my point. Frix is her boyfriend and the ship's medic.

Eric Loken

Yup, tried to kill him off at least once. Fleming did the same with Bond. But people complained, IIRC even the king of the day.

eddi_TBH

Victoria actually.

eddi_TBH

No wonder I missed it.

Eric Loken

AH, couldn't remember and couldn't be arsed to look it up. I sit corrected. :)