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Star Trek: TNG 421-422 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-05-13 12:00:08
Imported:
2026-05
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Comments

David Szoke

I think next week is an episode I like, 4.23

JakeyShakeyBakeyBoy

Will just say “The Drumhead” is a fave and a great episode of TV! Jean Simmons as Satie is stellar and she was a legend at this point, having worked with Stewart Granger and been in Spartacus, Guys and Dolls and many other classics in the decades previous. Picard’s courtroom speech and then his final note about eternal vigilance are wonderfully written. Johnny Frakes knocked it out of the park directing that episode ☺️

Michael Bauer

Oooh... excited for these episodes! 🥰

Amar

Guys just to let you know “Hail Mary Project” is out on digital now and other channels are starting to react. It’s a must watch!!

Alec Zrike

It's amazing to me how 30+ years later, some episodes are just as relevant as ever...

Carlisle Richards

You ask whether Picard is willing to monitor or confine someone based on a Betazoid's feelings. He's pretty principled and will fall back on it to the letter, even with the risks involved.

Matt O'Keefe

I have only seen the actor playing Simon Tarses in one other thing. He plays the tv interviewer of Cliff Booth and Rick Dalton in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. He has a distinct look that aged finely over the close to 30 years between The Drumhead and that movie.

Alan Pownall

They were asking Picard to restrict Tarses's movements based upon the Betazoid feeling that he was lying about something; Picard objected to taking action against Tarses not necessarily further investigation.

Jeffrey Mitchell

Regarding "The Drumhead", I think George is right about that last hearing. It seemed a bit rushed. I think that just comes down to only having 45 minutes for the episode and having a standard 3 act television structure. The episode could have used another 15 minutes. As far as Picard's reluctance to take action when the Betezoid said the crewman was lying about something, it wasn't so much don't look into as it was don't treat a man as a criminal without any evidence beyond "he lied about something." Their suggestions weren't "let's look into it", they were "let's keep him under surveillance and restrict his access to the ship." It would be like if you worked at a pharmacy, happened to be outside a convenience store that was robbed, you were nervous when the police questioned you about what you saw, and then they told your work to restrict your access to prescription medications.

Polecat21

its not that Picard was unwilling to look into why Simon was lying its that he wasn't willing to restrict his movements and put him under surveillance based on a betazoid's feelings....

Lintrinsic

One thing that struck me on this rewatch, the comment Worf isn't mentioned on the homeworld - Are we supposed to think Worf believed he was famous and a popular topic of conversation on Qo'nos before he was discommended? He was at best an afterthought when they decided to pin the Khitomer massacre on his Dad. I know the dude is just trying to rile him up but is that the best he can come up with?

Fedora The Explorar

Oh no, I really enjoy the direction in 421! The director was Jonathan Frakes and he has real talent for it. The dramatic zoom into Picard's face is good and the shot with Satie being left alone as everyone leaves is one of the best directions in all of TNG so far. Doesnt read as a mistake at all to me.

Elvenwitch

Depressing, isn't it?

G Lam

So, speech mishaps: Sorry, I only have George here... pretty sure both were during this video. 1: My favourite for anyone (and lots of people do it) Pronunciation/Mispronunciation... the actual word. "pronoun" is not there.. it's pro-NUN-ciation. 2: "Specie". "Species" is singular and plural (like "sheep"). George you keep saying "that specie". But I do have to thank you... because I found out by hearing you and actually looking up what you are saying, that "specie" is actually a frigging word... meaning "money in the form of coins" .. and this is a word I really want to start using (you know... correctly in a sentence) :-P

Vega's patreon

If I could make a suggestion similar to "Drumhead", and I am not sure if this is the correct place to make it, but I would recommend the film "The name of the rose" starring Sean Connery and Christian Slater. It is a murder mystery set in the middle ages, and it is SO good. I think you would enjoy it.

Brandon

I listen to a Star Trek podcast and one of the hosts pointed out that the most important scene in 'The Drumhead' isn't Picard's speech, but the scene where he's called out for using Troi as a tactical advantage after calling out Admiral Satie for the same thing. Picard stops in his tracks and is like "You know what... you're right! And I need to reevaluate that!" He's confronted with an ethical failing that he's never considered before and actually responds well to it instead of saying the usual, "Oh... well it's different when I do it." No denials, no excuses. Just a full acknowledgement. We don't have enough heroes in media like this. I remember the hosts pointing out that maybe only Superman is another character that would respond like this to being called out on a flaw. The ethics of Picard, the character we are rooting for, are examined really well in this episode. The part of the interrogation where they lie to Tarses about the warp drive being sabotaged after they already know that it wasn't blows my mind every time.

Matrim

David Ogden Stiers was such a phenomenal actor. I know you’ve encountered him before in voice work at least. He was in a bunch of Disney films: Cogsworth in the original Beauty and the Beast, Governor Ratcliffe in Pocahontas, and Jumba in Lilo & Stitch. He was also one of the cast of the World War Z audiobook. He was also my second favorite character on MASH.

ChiefKC

This episode reunited Jonathan Frakes and Jean Simmons. They were both previously in the North & South miniseries.

GAB

You will see Michelle Forbes, who played the daughter, in another Role starting next season.

John

Simone: "Man, that's a good-looking ship." Yes. Yes it is. 🫡

Polecat21

Blows my mind that in the US police are allowed to lie during interrogations to try an elicit a confession.

REDR58

Spencer Garrett. He was in “Air Force One” (1997) as the White House Aide and “Iron Man 3” (2013) as a sheriff. He also did voices in “The Crow” (1994) and “Captain America: The First Avenger” (2011).

Thall

Nah, Picard didn't want to take away Tarsis freedom based on him hiding a lie. Very different from suspecting someone and investigating vs putting them in prison just in case. That's something Bavarian police are allowed to do and it's fucked.

Joshua M Freeman

Think of Betazoid telepathy as more of a talent and less of a sense. Lwaxanna Troi is a talented telepath and therefore she can read people's thoughts quite clearly whereas the Betazoid investigator is less talented and so he is unable to suss out the crewman's exact thoughts.

Guts

Picard said he was against restricting his movement or "trodding on his freedom" based only on Betazed intuition. He was not against looking into him I don't think.

s0rd3z

What a wonderful set of episodes. Drumhead is just amazing television across the board. Still more greats to come too

Guts

Well one thing Simone always forgets is Star Trek episode plots. 😁

Robert Carter

Absolutely. I think George perhaps misinterpreted things and inferred that Picard wanted to do nothing whereas, as you say, he didn’t want to treat him as guilty of a crime based only on a Betazoid feeling that he is lying about SOMETHING. Picard still wanted to talk to him to get to the truth but outside the courtroom setting and without him being cornered, which is exactly what Picard did.

Matt O'Keefe

Hmm. I never really paid much attention to Air Force One. Not a favorite of mine. The same for The Crow. For the other two, I guess I just missed him.

halfAbee

I vaguely recognised the face, but I had to look up IMDB for David - I watched MASH on the telly in Scotland in the 70s - I disliked his character back then, now I know David was doing a great job playing that role, just as he does in this TNG episode.

s0rd3z

Oh and the actor in Half a Life (David Ogden Stiers) played Charles Emerson Winchester III in MASH. I love MASH, movie and series. It's a big ask for the series, which is phenomanal imo, but the movie should make a war movie or dramady poll some day for sure. (Edit: he is not in the movie and joins the series a bit later)

DesolationEntertained

True, though validating of the final point that vigilance is indeed the cost. Maybe it helps to pay our measure to remember those who have before us.

Stephen Morris

The Drumhead and Half a life… two heavy hitters.

John Rose

Star Trek was perfect for shaping my moral and political beliefs, maybe thats why I'm the only liberal in my family until just recently when my mom followed suit after January 6th. Thank you TNG!

Monica Alarcon

Well. Since you asked... There's two things that come to mind with George and words. One is the way he pronounces the word "women" not as "we men" but he says "wo-men". The other is "species" the singular of "species" is also "species" and you say "specie" as in "there are multiple species" (plural) and "that is an interesting species" (singular). Not that it ever bothered me. I know firsthand what a strange language English is when you have to learn it as a second language.

Christian Da Silva

Would it be ok to mention that Project Hail Mary is already on streaming? The Perfect Mix just released their reaction to it.

ChiefKC

I remember him all the way back in M.A.S.H. He also played Oberoth in Stargate: Atlantis.

Pokes

Picard was OK with further investigation into the crewman, but he wasn't willing to restrict his movements or make any assumptions of guilt based solely on Betazoid intuition. That's where he was drawing the line.

Venusian

George, just because you, given your cultural background, think Troi is doing something wrong by judging others, doesn't mean it's wrong for her to do so. You're engaging in the very same behaviour that she is, but on a meta-level. I just think there are limits to moral relativism. If they came across a culture that had the tradition of murdering innocent people based on a monthly lottery, it's rational to criticise them. If they come across a culture with something akin to the Third Reich, it's rational to criticise them, too. Doing so with respect is important, of course, but the idea of just letting things be and accepting silent relativism/nihilism? Nah.

Gerald Walker

The Luxanna episode hits a lot differently at 56 than when I was 21 and first saw it.

Brandon

'The Ballad of Narayama' is a great Japanese film that explores the same concept as in 'Half a Life'. It's about a village where the elderly routinely travel up to the mountains and stay there to die when they turn 70. It's done in order to prevent food supplies from becoming too scarce. There's a 1958 version that uses Kabuki theatre concepts in its production design and a 1983 remake that uses location shooting. Both are based on a novel and are both excellent.

REDR58

He’s been in lots of other stuff but typically I mention when an actor has appeared in something that has been watched here that I know Simone and George have seen.

REDR58

George sometimes drops the “S” at the ending of some words (species/species, as noted above) or adds an “S” to others (“slangs”). George, your English as a second language is also far superior to my nonexistent knowledge of Chinese/Mandarin, so, don’t sweat it.

Robert Carter

I wasn’t paying attention when Simone said “she’s familiar”, so I wasn’t sure if she recognised her (it is Simone after all). I skipped back and the little smirk she had on her face when she said it means she definitely recognised her and know who she plays

Richard Powers Hardt

The actor playing the scientist, David Ogden Stiers was a staple on MASH for years and you might recognize his voice as Cogsworth in Disney's Beauty and the Beast.

Robert Carter

Two great episodes with excellent guest stars in Jean Simmons and David Ogden Stiers. I personally would have preferred Drumhead to be a two-parter with perhaps the actual incident and events leading up to it portrayed in a linear narrative and the interrogation and investigation given more space in a second part but I guess budget and time restraints limited that possibility. In Half a Life, my interpretation has always been that Lwaxana was dealing as much with the realisation of her own mortality as Timicin’s. She instantly feels attraction to and a connection with a man, only to then find out that his people have decided that 60 years is the point before you start to become a burden on others and are “old”. Being someone so vibrant and joyful, this would hit her with the realisation that SHE herself is going to reach that point in the not too distant future and what will become of her then? Will she fade away, be a burden, unwanted by others? Her anger is partly that this is a future for herself as much as it is about Timicin.

Christian Rennie

"That's how they wrote it." I agree with Simone that it is hard for in-show continuity of powers of the Betazoids. But, without looking at the wiki, at this point Betazoids are varied in their abilities and can go from full on mind reading to simply sensing an emotional state. Remember Tam Elbrum (Tin Man) is a prodigy and the extreme example of their full potential to read peoples' minds. From telling orders before someone says them, to sensing feelings, and having a full-on conversation by responding to Riker's thoughts out loud.

Monica Alarcon

Yeah. We all have our quirks. I just mentioned it because he asked...

The Real Andrew Kim

Regarding Betazoid abilities, they are empathic with slight telepathic powers if they are gifted or train their abilities which is why Lwaxana teases Deanna that she has not been practicing her telepathy the first time we meet her. This episode really uses betazoids as an allegory for polygraphs aka Lie detectors. They can detect the biological/mental reactions of a person but the possible reasons for those reactions can be biased and open to interpretation. The reliability and the science behind polygraphs have been disproven and debunked for decades now, but most people still think lie detectors are a thing and is still used today as a persuasive argument tool. Polygraph testing results are actually inadmissible as evidence in courts but it will still be used as a political ploy and intimidation tool to influence witnesses and juries. The Drumhead is one of the best episodes of Star Trek and is one of the best ways to educate people on habeus corpus and 5th amendment rights (at least in the US). I love this episode but at the same time always feel very disappointed and depressed that not enough people learned these lessons given the current state of habeus corpus regarding immigration.

DonkyDave

I'm dreaming of a world where S&G do a Heated Rivalry reaction between seasons 4 and 5 just like they did with Fallout

DonkyDave

These episodes really show what a banger this show became, I really like the nth degree that they did last week too

James Wilson

To George's point/issue with the episode about Satie seeming to become a blunt instrument near the end, I used to think the same thing. I used to think it seemed a bit too scripted/abrupt, and not something her character (to that point) would've done. And it probably was, after all, there's only so much time in the episode. But also I've now come across those types of people. People who seem honest, friendly, and just, so long as things are going their way. But the moment there's friction, disagreement, or problems to overcome, they turn accusatory and start blaming others and seeking retribution rather than collaborative problem solving. So it doesn't seem as disjointed for me anymore.

W_E_Ray (Dungeons-Dragons Grognard since '81)

You recognized that David Ogden Stiers is an absolutely brilliant talent but -- Holy Moly -- I can't believe you didn't recognize him as the voice of Cogsworth the clock-butler from the 1991 Disney classic, 'Beauty and the Beast'!

W_E_Ray (Dungeons-Dragons Grognard since '81)

And only two episodes George asked -- "Uh, are there any good episodes left; this show kinda sucks?!' .... And we were all like, "Just wait a couple more episodes and you get to see David Ogden Stiers do some seriously genius acting that illustrates one of the great 'Prime Directive' conundrum storylines!"

SnabbKassa

I love that Worker and Parasite T. Endut. Hoch Hech!

SnabbKassa

I wouldn't say it's amazing. Human nature doesn't change. We evolve, but only over 1000s of years.

Stately, Plump Buck Mulligan

Sorry to be that guy, but I can't resist: the example Simone gave of "sotally tober" in place of "totally sober" is indeed a Spoonerism, which is a phrase in which the initial parts of words are transposed. If I remember correctly, the term is named after an Oxford academic who, in his dotage, was famous for committing those kinds of errors in speech. A malapropism is the substitution of a word with another word that sounds similar but has a different meaning, potentially rendering the resulting phrase nonsensical. That said, I know these days people use that term more broadly to denote any kind of mistake while speaking.

W_E_Ray (Dungeons-Dragons Grognard since '81) (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-05 05:00 (Does Simone even read the comments? I know George does but it seems like Simone never gives us a shout-out.) Anyway, to answer Simone's question, nothing dumb she says really bothers anyone: My observation is that, in a life long (worthy) effort to speak brilliantly, poetically and artistically, Simone 'wants' to speak creatively and then just sputters into mumbling awkwardly. Like, she wants to say something like, "Character X is effervescent in a beautious and frabjous way, Callooh Callay" but as she's trying to think of genius adjectives and adverbs on-the-spot she becomes self conscious, and comes up with nothing. So, in trying to be poetic and artistic and unique while speaking eloquently, she feels awkward and inarticulate. And only goes half way. But I applaud the effort -- the desire to speak in a manner that others appreciate for its creativity.
2026-05-13 17:55

DonkyDave

also helps that she's fucking gorgeous

Blackbaldrik

For the second episode; I'm not at all disagreeing that there could have been more given to justify why Lwaxana became so attached. But at the same time, it is kinda just who she is. She doesn't really do half-measures with anything, basically everything is either 0, or 100 with her. And usually it's 100. It makes sense to me, that her character would jump both feet in on a whim, expecting just to have a bit of fun, and then unexpectedly developing deeper feelings.

Captain Kermit

Doc Hollywood is where I know him best from, outside of TNG.

Jomero

We know the Prime Directive. But the Secondary Directive of Starfleet mandates the AAAA rule: All Admirals Are Assholes.

Captain Kermit

I know him best from Doc Hollywood with Michael J. Fox. I was never a big MASH fan.

Life in the cave of Garanoga

George is going to love/hate Enterprise lol. One thing I loved about that show is how humans are literally "The new kids" and misinterpret all sorts of stuff as they stumble around. Especially Trip. Dude flies off the handle and gets proven wrong many times. I love the Timicin episode. It should have been a two parter for sure. They could have expanded the dialog more and made it feel just that little bit more organic. That's what I do love about the episode. The reactions feel justified within the characters and like something that would actually happen. People meet, the cultures clash somehow and they argue, then in the best cases they both walk away having learned something and maybe are influenced by it. I also liked how in the end he does stay within his culture and she accepts that. That was the final touch of realism that makes the rushed dialog forgivable to me. George is right, they should have spent more time showing them fall for each other and the disagreement over culture. Two parter could have done that.

blerbaberpaterb

.....so by your standards then.... you get to be the moral center....? ......youre using human standards against human behaviors.....what if theres a species that has thousands of children like mosquitoes and they think its wrong to put the life of the young ahead of life of the elder, they say humanity is wrong for focusing on children.... even though thats mammalian behavior.....do you go by their standards then? or is it just might is right at that point..... how about if theres a photosynthetic species that comes in and decides eating the dead of other living things is wrong? not just meat but plants too? and they decide that all those that eat are evil even if biologically required.....

blerbaberpaterb

......hell using your third reich comparison...... eugenics only feels wrong to us because we are not a eusocial species...... but if humans are eusocial like bees and ants.....suddenly eugenics makes biological sense......eugenics AND tyranny is literaly how eusocial species function..... bees, termites, ants..... they breed specific types to do specific jobs at the service of a single individual that keeps the colony alive..... if they then became sentient intelligent beings..... and think we are wrong for having individually and its immoral to over throw tyrants......yeah moral relativism.....

REDR58

Oh I know, Monica. That wasn’t directed at you specifically! I was just keeping the discussion going.

Candy Found on a Barbershop Floor

Dr .Timcin is played by David Ogden Stiers, who's in some movies you definitely should watch, like The Curse of the Jade Scorpion, and Better Off Dead.

Paul Peavler

You can make up all kinds of hypotheticals but the facts that we are shown in this episode show that their species is incredibly similar to ours and the argument that he makes for the ritual has nothing to do with anything about biology. Further, he doesn’t even make an argument that it’s for some larger reason or external force; for example, the argument could be made that with the dying star their planet no longer has the resources to sustain their population level and this is the way they have decided to handle that issue of population and resource management, and if Lwaxana or anyone else thinks that there is some other option they could present that, but at least it would make an internal logical sense especially given how isolationist and independent their world is. But he argues that it was developed purely because 1500 years ago their world had a bunch of elderly people that felt like a burden and decided that this ritual is the best way to handle that problem. And Lwaxana points out the obvious flaw in the logic that someone can become seriously ill or injured at any point in their life, even at birth, and other people can be completely healthy at 80, so what purpose does a universal seemingly arbitrary age of death serve if the stated goal is to minimize individual and family suffering? That line of logic can lead you straight into eugenics, like we should execute all disabled people to minimize their suffering and the economic and emotional burden on their families. Trek is all about asking philosophical questions, but if the answer to every one is “well it’s up to the person or society involved and nobody else can judge” then what’s the point? And if every question of cultural or societal norms boils down to “well the way it is now must be good because it’s their culture and we shouldn’t criticize” then that seems to fly in the face of Trek’s stated ethos of progress, evolution, and diversity. I agree that those movements must be led from within, but revolutionary movements almost always need outside assistance because they are definitionally fighting a stronger oppressive power, and the Federation doesn’t seem to have an issue standing up for justice most of the time until they need to hit a Prime Directive episode quota. I think the fact that the scientist made the decision and attempt to seek asylum and eschew the tradition, as well as the government’s overreaction to it, shows that there is some level of resistance already existing in their society.

Adam Morgan

Strictly, tastes like salty or spicy are not objectively present. They can be masked by other flavours or affected in other ways. Different people will also have different levels of sensitivity and concepts of what those flavours are. If Betazoid senses are the same (and this is as inconsistent as ship speeds and the distances between locations) then they could still be wrong about the "mental-saltiness" of a suspect.

John Smith

".....so by your standards then.... you get to be the moral center....?" There are such things as objective standards. If a proponent of one philosophy claims their philosophy is better than competing philosophies because it produces people with longer and happier lives; then it is perfectly reasonable to point out that every time that philosophy has been put into practice, people's lives have been shorter and the people seem less happy. Any aspect of a society that can be analyzed via an "Idealized Goal vs. Actual Real World Results" method is more than fair game.

REDR58

Yep. That’s for damn sure for me too.

Paul Peavler

I knew how George was going to feel about “Half a Life” going in and I wasn’t wrong. I have a bias as a certified Prime Directive hater, but it bothers me that you guys both just kept saying that Lwaxana was wrong. I agree that she didn’t approach the situation well, certainly not the way an empath and a diplomat should, anyway. But she was absolutely right in the logical flaws she pointed out with the ritual, namely that their stated goal is to minimize individual suffering and reduce burden on the young and their families but it’s not clear that a universal arbitrary age decided 1500 years ago is the way to address that problem, or even if the problem still exists. Maybe 1500 years ago the life expectancy was shorter, or the planet’s resources more constrained, or the birth rate much lower. Maybe in the past 1500 years they’ve developed new technologies and medicines to extend life or make living as and caring for the elderly less painful and burdensome for everyone. And as she pointed out, it isn’t like there are no burdens to losing a family member at age 60 (I say as I lost both my parents at age 59). And the episode goes to great lengths to point out what their society will be missing with the loss of this one scientist. Imagine that at a global scale. This is not to say that she was 100% right, either. It’s complicated and there may be more to the picture, there almost certainly would be in a real scenario like this. But she pointed out a valid and obvious logical contradiction with the argument given to her for why the ritual exists, and from her perspective, the only person she’s ever met from the planet has a lot more to offer, doesn’t seem especially excited about dying, decides within just a few days to give up on it and seek asylum, and then only decides to go back after being threatened with exile, his work being destroyed, and his daughter saying she was ashamed of him. So idk man, it doesn’t really seem that far off for her to wonder if maybe this cultural custom doesn’t have quite the universal support they are claiming, and while I admit my bias, I think you guys should consider if your bias to respecting cultural norms is clouding the issue. Likewise, I think that bias led George to picking apart Lwaxana’s wig story because movements don’t start with one person, there is an underlying discontent first, but Lwaxana pointed out that the wigs were “uncomfortable for the women and harmful to the caged animals inside.” I guess that’s not explicitly saying that the women hated them and animal rights activists were complaining, but I think it’s a pretty safe inference that women would prefer not to wear big uncomfortable wigs and that the caged animals inside wouldn’t want to keep being caged inside a wig.

John Smith

Ditto. In fact his English is far superior to my knowledge of any other language.

REDR58

George, regarding Ian Andrew Troi, the father of Deanna and husband of Lwaxana, he died at approximately age 38, and you will eventually learn more about him in future TNG episodes. He was roughly 10 years younger than Picard at the time Picard first encountered Lwaxana.

Jeffrey Mitchell

I think the comment was about Picard looking directly into the camera. That's generally a no-no in film making. But I don't think it is very noticeable here. And on the kind of tight schedules these episodes were made under, you can't get everything perfect.

John Smith

It is shocking that police interrogations are allowed, period. Seriously, anything that a suspect says in front of people who HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO USE FORCE ON THEM should be considered inadmissible in court. It's the exact same logic we use to dismiss things children say in front of (who we suspect are) their abusive parents. We question those children away from those we think might abuse them, the same should go for any other time we suspect the use of force might change someone's answers.

John Smith

It also has an older meaning of "in kind" or "of a particular class", which is where (I think) the word "species" came from.

Angela's invisible airfryer (corey)

Honestly, Lwaxana was correct. Forcing people to kill themselves isn't magically honorable and good just because it gets the "100% grass fed tradition" sticker slapped on it. Some things, like autonomy, are universal rights. Culture, tradition, ritual, none of these labels grant the right to deny the autonomy of others, period.

John Smith

Worf was unique for being in Starfleet. I'm sure that he was at least a minor talking point.

blerbaberpaterb

.....is it universal.....? so bees are immoral because they are eusocial and have entire classes that exists solely for serving the queen......? .....autonomy only applies to beings that have individualism and that is not even universal on earth...... ....hell human beings cant even agree among ourselves what level of 'autonomy' is correct..... are prisons immoral..... or is that fine cause people did wrong.....? how about when families keep comatose members alive against their will..... or pull the plug without the comatose saying so.....? .....how about the rights for people to ask for assisted suicide.....? ......we are still arguing about those on earth and we wanna impose that to everyone else.....? aliens with entirely different physiologies and history.....? how egotistical is that.....?

blerbaberpaterb

......objective standards if its within the same species..... ......hell happiness cant even be measured across different species..... ......we objectively view slavery and classism as bad..... but to impose that on bees would be stupid..... they biologically evolve to function that way.....saying "classism is objectively wrong" simply doesnt work..... ......the quokkas natural instinct when feeling threatened is to throw their off spring at the predator so the adult can run off.....its unthinkable to a lot of other mammals.....but if quokkas were an intelligent sentient species.....and their biological instinct is to do that.... then who are you to say they are objectively wrong to your standards......?

blerbaberpaterb

.....objective standards are always from you, the human beings point of view..... but think about that being applied in reverse..... the Borg is the villain species cause they impose their standards on other species who doenst want it......

Drew Acheson

Deanna's mom has demonstrated the ability to actually read minds. The episode with the fish people going to the same conference that she was going to, she read their minds and told Worf no only that they were going to blow up the conference but exactly where the explosive was on their persons. I think the bigger problem is that the writers don't treat all Betazoids the same, or at the very least that perhaps the Betazoid in this episode maybe wasn't a full Betazoid. The only officially full blooded Betazoid we've met so far (Lwaxana) can read minds (except for certain species) and so this guy not being certain about something means he's either not fully Betazoid or the person/people he is reading have more control over their minds than the average person.

REDR58

Bees appear to have no sentience and cannot decide what they do.

blerbaberpaterb

.....okay but you understand the meaning of the word 'if' right.....? and that eusocial species in sci-fi is not exactly new...... and since we are talking about made up alien species here..... then eusocial ones can also be a thing...... .....and to add to that..... is sentience and active choice the requirement for morality.....? ......and what if an older alien civilization arrives on earth and says to us that going against our natural instincts and biological desires is in fact immoral because they believe evolution and nature is perfect so to actively suppress things like sexual desires or rage or wearing clothes is immoral.....? because they see it as objective universal right to exist as nature intended.....?

WastedPo

I think George was being a little pedantic in the post "Half a Life" discussion. Yes, technically, when there is a big cultural shift, it's because a lot of people wanted that change, and not just one person. But also, culturally, people tend to valorize and single-out individuals that do something publicly to further that change. For example, Lwaxana could've mentioned Rosa Parks, (if the writers wanted to really bring up something serious; though it wouldn't have made sense for Lwaxana to mention an incident from earth's history). And it would've been perfectly "realistic" for Lwaxana to frame Rosa Parks' refusal to move to the back of the bus as a pivotal moment, even though technically Parks wasn't literally the only person in society who wanted change to happen.

blerbaberpaterb

.......being pedantic is the hallmark of a true star trek fan......ask every star trek writer and actor thats ever answered a question from a fan at a convention......

Holy Squire

Cultures change when they're conquered. Conquered societies adapt the ways of the conqueror. It can also work the other way around where the conquered culture greatly influences the conqueror as in Greece/Rome.

Ron K

The Betazoid thing is actually pretty simple guys. Full Batazoids are fully telepathic. They can communicate with each other that way. Pretty sure Troy can only communicate telepathically with other Betazoids and with non-telepathic species she's only empathic.

John

The Drumhead is great. I would recommend Spartacus and Guys and Dolls starring Jean Simmons. I would also recommend Good Luck and Good Night, starring George Clooney

gfixler

I like that George's confusion about Picard not following a perfect line of reasoning in Drumhead (i.e. Betazoid has hunch → investigate) implies that George, halfway through the series, may now feel like Picard can do no wrong, just as I always felt watching the show as a kid 😆 Daddy Picard is infallible! Also, I feel like Picard could have simply been erring on the side of "these people are starting to give me authoritarian vibes, reverse course!" Later, after he was alone and could think better about it, he went to have a talk with the kid, to understand things better, which, to me, is him reversing course again, realizing that, actually, a Betazoid is a powerful help in these matters, and maybe he should look more into it. I liked this moment a lot: Admiral Satie: If Counselor Troi suggested to you that someone on the ship were dangerous, would you not act on that? Observe him, curb his activity? Picard: i have to admit I probably would, and maybe I should re-evaluate that behavior. It's so cathartic to see someone in power reflect on their thoughts and actions, and consider changing them for the better, as a matter of course. Picard doubting himself at times, and wanting to improve, and be the best captain he can be, is one reason I love the character.

gfixler

We think we have come so far... the torture of heretics and the burning of witches is ancient history... and then... before you can blink an eye... it threatens to start all over again. Vigilance, Elvenwitch. That is the price we must continually pay.

Marcus Hicks

Compared to Captain Kirk, Picard is a rank amateur when it comes to violating the Prime Directive 😆.

Superpotroast

She's also Admiral Caine from BSG..

Gryff

Cant take anything you say seriously with that blatant misuse of ellipsis...

Marcus Hicks

People who don't know the meaning of the word Etymology really bug me 🤪. Sorry, bad wordplay joke.

Peter K

Simone, you are right, Timicin's daughter did look familiar, I'm sure you will figure out who else she is. As for David Ogden Stiers, really good actor, best known as Dr. Winchester on M*A*S*H the TV series,

gfixler

Things George gets wrong: I actually think George has fantastic command of English, and trying to learn Spanish now for 4 centuries (maybe exaggerating), my level of impressed at anyone who's bilingual is off the charts. If you know two languages, I have zero judgment, only praise. That said, if there was one thing, it would be plurals, especially if a sentence starts to get complicated, with several clauses interrupting things. A specific word, though, is "species". For some reason, that word pops up a ton in CB video discussion, and George often uses "specie" as the singular, but both the singular and plural forms are "species", because English is a mess. I looked it up (because I'm wrong too, sometimes, even as a native speaker, because English is a mess), and there is actually a "specie", but it's different: specie money in the form of coins rather than notes. "the Bank of England in 1795 had held around £8 million in specie" This is so minor, though, who cares? I used to be a bit of a pedant, but then I heard Stephen Fry mention in an interview that he's not one at all, and doesn't care if people mess things up, because the whole point is just to be understood. I respect Stephen, and I decided I liked his outlook more than mine, so I [mostly] gave up being a pain in the as about any of it. Life's short. The interesting bit is what's being said, not if a word here and there is wrong. George is very interesting, and knows a crap ton of things, and two languages, to boot! Amaze. But, also, yeah, it's "species" 😆 I can't think of a specific thing for Simone, except that I think it's funny she says "et" instead of "ate".

R. Chang

Picard didn’t have a problem with some sort of investigation. He was objecting to restricting Simon to his quarters based only on this suspicion. Restricting his rights and his movements based on no evidence. George either didn’t understand the scene or misremembered it. It was a little frustrating to hear him go after the episode so forcefully for something that didn’t happen.

James W.

422, hit different while I am watching my father go through end of life care. I see both sides very clearly. I would prefer to have lost my father to resolution at 60 than watch him melt away in a hospital bed at 80. But I really didn't get to know him until the last 15 years so I would have lost out on that. It is an interesting ethical and moral question. @George Luwaxana mentions that she can't read Timicin's species early on in the ep, so she can't get a sense of his sincerity about his devotion to his planet and their tradition outside of his words. I think it is interesting to see her disarmed of that cheat, it shows how she is sort of lacking in the ability to read people. I wish they was time for their mutual affection to grow more organically so the loss felt earned but I also remember Luwaxana becoming quickly infatuated with a holo-deck bartender because she couldn't read him. Maybe she gets a kick out of Timicin because her race is impervious to betazed abilities.

James W.

Indeed, I just turned 50 and thinking that 10 years from now I would be asked to off myself is wild. However, my father is headed into hospice after being stripped of his health, dignity, and autonomy, and now his mind, so Resolution doesn't sound so barbaric. A fantastic episode.

Robert Mendoza

Simone, "Stop rhyming, I mean it!" George, "Anybody want a peanut?" Half A Life is so good. It's nice to see Lwaxana showing her vulnerable side instead of just being a joke character. I'm pretty sure the episode came out after Gene Roddenberry died so it's likely that some real sad feelings influenced Majel Barrett's performance. It's hard for me to be sympathetic to Timicin's daughter who is arguing for her dad to die. After my own father's death I can't imagine myself feeling that way at all. I know it's her culture but still I can't put myself in that mindset.

Stuart_Design

There will always be a range of beliefs when it comes to 'mercy killings'; the Scientist in the episode did give the reasons why his society felt it more ethical to kill people over 60; that the society was overwhelmingly burdened by more people who lived many years (I think he implied decades) with low quality of life, and young people were less and less able to enjoy a 'normal' life because the system required they look after the elderly for decades of their life. I think morality will always have a certain degree relativity if you are Secular. See how Secular Societies have very different laws on abortion, for example. Legal termination ranges from 3 months to 6 months. That represents a vast difference in the complexity of the life. A Scientist can only describe the physiological changes that a foetus undergoes but it can't tell you the 'exact' moment it begins to matter ethically. So the question is how does the Secularist make the leap from thinking they can can challenge Moral Relativists when they themselves can't come together and agree on something as fundamental as when a foetus begins to mater ethically?

Marcus Hicks

I was so glad when he joined the M*A*S*H gang. His stories were often the best IMHO.

Andrew

I think part of this is that 30+ years ago 60 was considered older than it is now. Back then people retired at 55. Now most people work until 65 if not older so the idea now of people offing themselves at 60 because they are too old is insane. If they made this episode today I think they would move the age back to at least 65 if not 70 just to make it more relevant for today's audience.

GAB

There's so much Trek to get through that I doubt we'll ever see S & G react to nuBSG. I'm watching Katee Sackhoff react to it on YouTube. While she played Starbuck, she never viewed it herself back then. The tales she has from being an insider are the best thing.

GAB

The universe doesn't care about human sensibilities.

Paul Peavler

This is a common misunderstanding of abortion ethics. The argument for pro-choice isn’t based on what’s ethical for a hypothetical future human life, it’s based on the real impact of pregnancy on the pregnant person. Even if you believe life begins at conception and any abortion is ending that life, what right does the state have to enforce someone to sacrifice their body for someone else? That’s what forced birth laws do, it forces a living person that everyone universally agrees is a person to sacrifice their body and possibly life for a fetus that may or may not be considered a fully developed or sentient human. It’s not just “secularists” that don’t agree on when life starts, nor is it just “secularists” that debate at which point abortion is justified. Most people that are pro-choice just center the issue around the rights of the pregnant person and their freedom from state coercion when it comes to their own bodies. The Bible argues that abortion is justified if your wife is pregnant and you think that maybe she cheated. There are gradations of philosophical arguments on the topic.

R. Chang

I don’t think the show is saying that either side is “wrong.” It’s just presenting an interesting conflict to get you to think about these issues. I don’t think that framing these sorts of episodes as being about right and wrong is the best way to think about it. This is a complicated issue and there’s a lot of nuance. It’s not a black and white situation.

Michael Bauer

I love episodes like "Half a Life". Those kinds of ethical questions are a big part of why I chose to get a degree in philosophy so many years ago. I think the situation with Timicin isn't as one-sided as it may appear - and we must remember that acknowledging the fact that moral norms and expectations are shaped by where and how we grow up does not commit us to complete moral relativism^1 - which would mean we could not advocate for any restrictions in how living beings could be (mis)treated. The most important point IMO is that having internalized certain norms is not an expression of the individual's own will, nor do ethical convictions always have to be the result of uncritical adoption of the norms of the people in one's culture or family. In the best case, moral values are an expression of empathy and understanding of the "flourishing conditions" of others, society as a whole, ecosystems and life in general. In the worst case, just like some spouses abused by their partner or children neglected by their parents - normalization causes identifiable moral harm independent of whether the sufferers fully realize it or not. Obviously we have to be carefuly not to be culturally chauvinistic, and interference not generally justifiable - the prime directive makes sense to a large extent. But at the same time, we definitely cannot conclude that any practice that is culturally normalized is therefore automatically okay or harmless. One need only think of cultural (often internalized) misogyny in so many cultures or the anti-semitism in Europe that eventually culminated in the Holocaust. For another real-world example - think of children growing up in a highly religious household among Jehova's witnesses where they are actively raised in a worldview that makes it clearly unacceptable to even consider not following the faith ... and imagine such a kid requires a blood-transfusion to live. These are clearly Similarly - I absolutely think we have no right to interfere with Timicin's wishes or the order of their soceity. But we can voice our concerns and convictions. And I personally am highly suspicious of any culture which doesn't tolerate dissent and non-conformism regarding its restrictions on people's freedoms (where those freedoms do not actively harm others in ways other than "alienated from the 'right' culture" - this condition excludes things like Russia's anti-homosexuality laws). To their credit, Timicin's society isn't as hostile as many people and communities in our world would be when confronted with "apostasy" - this is more about the general point that the strictness to which conformity is enforced matters morally. ________________________ 1: You can even think that there are no moral facts baked into the universe and still you don't have to be a moral relativist (e.g. via social contract theory [Scanlon] or functionalism [Mackie]).

Stuart_Design

"...pro-choice just center the issue around the rights of the pregnant person and their freedom from state coercion when it comes to their own bodies. " This really doesn't stand up under scrutiny.... Outside of small fringe groups, next to no one who supports abortion thinks it is valid to have an abortion close to the general time of birth. Like I said Secular countries have a wide spread of ideas about when abortion is acceptable... but no counties (to my knowledge) allow abortions at 9 months... so its not 'purely' justified on the basis of a Woman's Right to Choose... and there isn't much appetite within Secular countries to make it possible for women to choose to abort all the way up to 8-9 months. What we have at the moment is a 'balance' but different countries strike different balances because there really is disagreement about when the foetus can feel things like 'pain', whether that alone should be the determinant. My point (and reason for bringing this up) is just to say; its very easy to fall into the trap of thinking you are in a secure place to call out 'moral relativists' who don't think you can lecture a society like in this episode who have a very different conception of morality and the role of individual liberties... For most faiths here on earth it is sinful to end your life early... but secularist countries again succumb to moral relativism and can't find an objective standard... no county allow willy-nilly self-termination (but some are getting close)... some countries forbid pulling the plug on the brain-dead... So from on what basis do we 'proclaim' we know what is right and say 'this' society (in the TNG episode) is wrong? We haven't 'grounded' our ethic in something proven to be better over a long expanse of time... we're diverging and changing things every decade... lets see what the long term consequences are for our new found 'secular morality' are before decrying the 'moral relativist' for not passing judgement on others.

PIG

Hot damn what a line up. Possibly my favorite pairing so far. Have I already said how incredible this show is?

PIG

Very depressing 😂 I wish everyone watched this very episode.

DemNikoArt

I loved how the second episode gave Lwaxana so much more depth and character. She was at the brink of being an episode killer but this one redeemed her in my book big time! 👏 P.s. Do Simone and George know that she's the actress who played Nurse Chapel in TOS?

Michael Bauer

I had similar thoughts. Of course George isn't wrong that biology, morphology, ecology will all influence norms and expectations and ranges of what is possible and acceptible. But going from "this is 'natural'" to "this is therefore what's morally justified" or conversely "therefore it cannot be morally unjustified" is what philosophy calls the "naturalistic fallacy". Also - to think that your species should determine what you can legitimately argue against or not is to preclude the very possibility of any overarching reasons accessible to sapient, communicating beings - not in virtue of being a particular species, but in virtue of being sapient and communicating. Why would criticism based on actual arguments lose its relevance depending on the species (or race / culture) of the person making that case? To preclude "outsiders" from making a valid point about the habits of any group they are not part of is just as chauvinistic and closed-minded as people just assuming that all the norms they grew up with must apply to everyone. George's position seems to be that ethics is largely biologically and culturally determined and that shifts are due to basically blind "forces of nature". But looking at history - arguments certainly do play a role, making people aware of things they were not aware before plays a role. People do come to conclusions that existing norms are wrong even without already existing larger movements - just through empathy and reason. And not accepting things as rightful just because they are tradition has been an absolutely necessary precondition for moral progress - so to that extent at least, Lwaxana is absolutely correct. Complete moral relativism is not a necessary conclusion of recognizing how biology, ecology and culture shape norms and the ranges of what is possible and acceptible, nor is it even a necessary conclusion from denying the existence of objective "metaphysical" moral facts (cf. J.L. Mackie, T. M. Scanlon et al). Moral relativism also removes any foundation for considering any shift of norms within any culture as positive or negative - so a true moral relativist cannot acknowledge *any* moral progress at all (e.g. abolishment of torture or of slavery, improvements to women's rights, gay rights etc.)... nor any regress. And finally - your last point is I think the most important one: We are talking about sentient, sapient beings who have individual interests as well as objective flourishing conditions (based on biology and psychology). There are definitely culture- and species-independent arguments to be made that no culture or tradition has moral authority to systematically disregard these interests and flourishing conditions of sapient individuals. And since deriving moral evaluations (or the necessity of a lack thereof) from some facts about nature is a fallacy - we can also conclude that if there were preying mantis-like fully sapient species, the mere facts of biology would not make it morally any better that sapient individuals are killed, and in a society of communicating sapient individuals, the interests of the males not to be eaten would also matter and be a cause for trying to effect change. Biology does not have to be destiny (genes for metabolizing milk als adults are an example).

The Real Andrew Kim

Regarding Half a Life, clearly this episode was an exploration about how society treats its elderly population, something we still struggle with now, if anything its even worse now than it was when this was written. But especially from a western/US perspective, we do a shit job of taking care of our elderly, but its also one of the most difficult things that every single family has to reckon with. Do we want to age with grace, or do you want to milk every last breath of life out of you before your end? Lwaxana represents what I view as the more traditional view, parents take care of kids, the kids take care of parents, and for majority of human history this has been the case for the most part but it is a huge responsibility and burden on families and their relationships. Timmison and his culture represents a more modern (and imo capitalist) attitudes of senior care like retirement homes and hospicing, which eases burdens on families but can be isolative and this is all before we even think about issues of elder abuse in today's real life world. This leads his culture to take a very radical approach in the problems that come with such kind of long term care. Neither approach is ideal and there is no perfect solution. Of course these are big complex socioeconomic and cultural questions and I respect this episode greatly for tackling such huge issues in a compact tight 45 min show. The show I don't think is meant to give you an answer but makes audiences ask these hard questions to themselves and with others. I think media like this is needed to encourage healthy dialogue and face tough questions. Personally, my family was pretty much torn apart because the different family members and in-laws could not agree how to take care of my Grandparents in their final years. So this episode hits very close to home. Also this is my favorite Lwaxana episode, I think this and i think the next lwaxana appearance do a good job explaining her eccentricities IMO but we can talk about that when we get there.

The Real Andrew Kim

Yeah that was my thoughts as well, George is right in that is what actually happens during radical shifts in culture, but for a story, it's easier for audiences to worship one figure than the idea of statistical mass adoption in terms of entertainment value and inspiration. And yeah I'm pretty sure Lwaxana's story about the woman who stopped the hats was pretty much Betazoid Rosa Parks.

Angela's invisible airfryer (corey)

Yea, autonomy is a universal right, and nothing in that ellipsis separated list of random scenarios changes or even challenges that. Everyone should have have full autonomy up to the point of hindering the autonomy of others, at which point, punishments like jail come into play.

Geoff Richards

"Sotally tober" is a Spoonerism, named after some English vicar who used to often swap the leading consonants in words. A malapropism is using a word that sounds nearly right, but isn't exactly what you meant.

John Smith

@ceghwwww "......objective standards if its within the same species....." ".....objective standards are always from you, the human beings point of view..... " All you're doing here is demonstrating that you have no idea what the word "objective" means. There are, in fact, objectively true (and false) things you can say about reality - and since ethics has to do with reality (not some imaginary realm) there are objective things we can say about it as well. If someone argues that their ethical philosophy implies that 2+2=5, then either they or their philosophy are objectively wrong. If someone argues their philosophy will let people live to be 200 years old, but in fact it kills everybody, then they are objectively wrong. People having different opinions, tastes, or preferences in no way invalidates the field of rational, objective ethics.

Sito

It could be worse...Logan's Run

Beddoe

About mispronouncing things: 'Beddoe' rhymes with 'meadow'.

DDK

George, because you asked, I always get a little kick out of the way you pronounce the word “them”, because it sounds more like “thumb” without the b. I don’t know if it’s specific to you or if it’s a Canadian/regional dialect thing, but I’m in the same boat as a native English speaker. When I went to college in a different region of the US, my friends noted how I pronounced “room” like “rum.” Either way, I absolutely think being bilingual still counts as a good excuse lol, especially for something so minor.

Joshua Milus

Nobody’s going to talk about the fact that they BLEW UP A STAR????

This Justin

“The Drumhead” was an example of what people did during the Red Scare. If you want to see more media about it, watch the Jim Carrey movie *The Majestic*.

This Justin

George, imagine someone you love was on trial for shoplifting. They were at the store, and they did buy something, but they did not steal anything. In fact, the item they bought was a gift for you. On camera, they are seen hiding the object and acting secretive, but that was only because they wanted the gift to be a surprise. Now imagine the shoplifting case is solved, and your loved one is proven not guilty. But instead of stopping there, the investigators say, “Well, maybe you were doing something else illegal. Tell us who all your friends are so we can investigate them too. If you were lying about one thing, maybe they are lying as well.” That is the problem. The trial is no longer about the original crime. It becomes an excuse to search for more suspects, pressure people, and make them accuse others. This is similar to what happened during the Red Scare. If someone was suspected of being a communist, they could be questioned, punished, or pressured into giving up the names of friends, coworkers, or family members. Those people would then become suspects too, even without real evidence. You can see the issue here: once an investigation stops being about proving a specific crime and starts being about forcing people to name others, justice turns into fear and suspicion.

This Justin

David Ogden Stiers was a brilliant actor and played one of my favorite characters from the show MASH*. He portrayed Charles Emerson Winchester III. RIP

Angela D. Mitchell

On "Half a Life," David Ogden Stiers is SO GOOD. An amazing actor. The moment when he was near tears after the test failure was so quietly moving. (If y'all haven't watched the show "MASH," please do at some point! Stiers is terrific on that.) I interviewed David about 20 years ago, and it was one of the most delightful conversations of my life. Over two hours of talk about theatre, Shakespeare, literature, classical music, and so much more. I was nervous because I didn't interview a lot of celebrities, but he was incredibly kind and went out of his way to put me at ease. And he talked very movingly about how much his work as an actor meant to him and how humbled he felt when it affected people. And he had such a passion for classical music and had self-taught himself enough to become a genuinely respected symphony conductor -- he had conducted dozens of symphonies across the U.S. at the time of his death. As far as this episode, Simone, I didn't think Lwaxana was "wrong." And George, I don't think this was a matter of "different cultures." When a culture's "tradition" is harmful, senseless, and cruel? Maybe that tradition needs to change. I wish everyone had supported Lwaxana more in at least trying to get them to talk about it. And I was frustrated that Picard and the crew seemed so offhand about this "tradition" of killing citizens because they reach a certain age. And George, sometimes change CAN be sparked by one single person. History has shown that repeatedly. I find Lwaxana INCREDIBLY irritating most of the time (although I love Majel Barrett), but she was the one in the right here, and it was weird that people in Starfleet's intensely humanistic, kind society weren't more outraged along with her. But I loved her relationship with Timicin and loved that she went to be with him at the end. FYI, Michelle Forbes plays Timison's daughter and she is AMAZING: Homicide: Life on the Street, In Treatment, 24, Battlestar Galactica, and so many other great things (including several other TNG episodes too). A wonderful actress.