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Stark Trek: TNG 517-518 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-08-05 12:00:06
Imported:
2026-08
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Comments

Joel

Happy Star Trek Day!!

Brandon

The Outcast has received both praise and criticism. To give it some credit, the terminology we have today simply didn't exist in the early 90's when the episode aired. Some have criticized the ending for condoning conversion therapy, but since it is definitely not meant to be a happy ending, I have to disagree with that. On the other hand, despite not actually dying it can be easy to see Soren as an unfortunate victim of the "kill your gays" trope. It's a flawed episode, to be sure. Still, compared to the stupid "It's Pat" sketches on SNL at the time, I have to commend TNG for taking the subject seriously.

Temba His Arms Wide

Geordi has a beard because LeVar Burton wanted to grow it out for his wedding.

Matt O'Keefe

Cause and Effect is a top tier(could not number it) episode

Robert Cooper

"You chose to work on a spaceship?" So, one of the things that is always remarked about in the TNG era is that the ships are mostly, vastly empty. The Enterprise D is HUGE and only has 1000 people on it. Compare that to a modern aircraft carrier that is more the size of the original Enterprise and has 7-8000 people on it.

Data Cable

Given his surprise at the facial hair, has George never seen the Geordi version of the Drake meme template?

Matt O'Keefe

Johnathan Frakes said at the time Soran(en?) could have or should have been played by a guy.

John Rose

As it was intended, it's an allegory for homosexuality and how they are treated in society. It has morphed into more territories with gender due to more modern sensibilities.... Jonathan Franks has said that he regrets that they wimped out and didn't make the actor a man.

John Rose

Also Simone is right you're concentrating way too much on the word evolved.... That literally was mentioned like once, and that could mean mentally evolved like let's say the Vulcans have evolved mentally to get rid of emotion though it's still there. I'm not saying that's exactly the same thing I never even put into effect the whole evolution part into my train of thought because it really isn't even relevant. It's an allegory for homosexuality and how terrible they are treated insociety, more so at the time. I was like 12 when this came out it definitely helped form my feelings of empathy.

David Szoke

I have 2 words - HUSK BUKKAKE

megamoo chilli

I think George and Star Trek writers are putting an objectively positive value on the process of evolution, as in more evolved equals better, fitter. But evolution can take a species in any direction. Moths that live near industrial chimneys might evolve to be black in colour, they've changed to fit their environment, doesn't mean its better or worse.

Rob Steere

There are reports that Jonathan Frakes wanted to take the episode farther and cast a man as Soren, but was shot down by the producers.

ChiefKC

Star Trek Day!

Brandon

Yeah, I remember reading that somewhere. I think all of the J'naii we saw in the episode were played by women.

blerbaberpaterb

this is one of those episodes i point to when people cry about modern day star trek is 'woke'.

Polecat21

The Outcast - I'm not sure I understand the objection to Soren desiring to stay the way the she is because they evolved into an androgynous society. Maybe you could look at this way - we evolved into 2 sexes so why would someone have the desire to be with the same sex.

D Gyre

I always understood the loss of gender to be more society imposed rather than actual evolutionary change. The strict and oppressive description plus other context clues make me think the "evolution" part is more propaganda than truth, part of how the government justifies infringing on personal freedoms and choice. I don't think it's a true biological evolutionary step.

R. Chang

On the use of the word "evolution" in the episode The Outcast: That is the language being used by the authorities and how they teach their people. Look at our own world and trans politics. There are many people who claim (incorrectly) that science/biology says that there are only two genders. That is factually wrong, but it is the ideology that they promote. If you want to imagine a much more complicated story of how the Genai came to be as they are, it's not hard to assume that such a story would be suppressed by those in control. People like that use bits and pieces of science that they like to craft the narrative that they prefer. All that said, I really don't think it's a big deal that they used the world evolve. That's not what the story is about.

TalynOne

People have this warped view of the 90s and before, as someone who lived through it in many ways society is much more bigoted now than it used to be. Sure bigotry existed back then but it was considered more taboo, now with the amplification of hatred of anything different through social media it's become more socially acceptable to be openly bigoted. Our current president ran on a platform of hatred, and won, twice. I remember one behind the scenes trivia that Frakes wanted the other person to be male leaning, but Berman (known chauvinist) overruled him because he didn't want on an screen male to male kiss in Trek. Frakes thought it was cowardly.

John Rose

I always assumed the bozeman was looping as well for all that time but it was clarified later that they only traveled through time, they were not in the loop. Only the Enterprise was actually in a timeloop the Bozeman is a time travel situation.

Brian Moore

Every time Simone says “I don’t remember this” about one of my favorite episodes of my favorite show, my little Trekkie heart dies a little.

gfixler

Yay, Stark Trek Day!

Jacob

Card counting is only a thing in Blackjack. Data would be free to use all his mental advantages in poker games.

Paul T Hewes

In canon, Captain Morgan Bateman from the USS Bozeman goes on to work with Star Fleet special operations and assists Captain Freeman of the USS Ceritos to clear her name.

Paul T Hewes

one of the most memorable for sure. Especially considering when it first aired in syndication, the ship exploded and it cut to commercial each time.

TalynOne

It would be more accurate to say Groundhog Day did a Cause and Effect, since the TNG episode came out first.

WastedPo

I honestly think that the Outcast works as an allegory as successfully as "Zootopia" does for its intended allegorical parallel. Meaning, it works quite well, which is impressive for a TV show episode that came out in 1992. The Outcast also arguably took a way bigger "chance" for pushback/controversy considering the time it came out. (Though now that I think of it, if modern Trek made an episode like "The Outcast" today, a lot of people would be freaking out, likely more than society did back in the early 90s.) As for Cause and Effect (sorry if this is mentioned in the reaction, which I haven't watched yet), I learned fairly recently that this episode actually came out BEFORE "Groundhog Day." For most of my life I just assumed that "Cause and Effect" was inspired by the Bill Murray movie. Adding to my comment as I get into the reaction: Yes, there have been non-cartoon shows that have broken the fourth wall. "Moonlighting" - the light mystery show that starred Bruce Willis before he became a movie star - did it regularly. And at least once the show "Northern Exposure" did it. I'm sure other shows have done it too, but those are just the ones I remember personally seeing.

Ian Tellam

I suppose it couldn't have been looping the whole time, as it would need to have crashed into the enterprise thousands of times, but as they only did 17 loops that couldn't have happened.

Blackbaldrik

First episode discussion: I can sense the wave of angry comments George is gonna get over this one. And I'm kinda joining them. Though I by no means send any hate his way. I just think this is a take he's gonna need to ruminate on, 'cause it feels like a significant miss. The allegory the episode is going for, isn't invalidated by the separation between universe and writer, the J'nai's attitude toward these (by definition, trans) people is still wrong within the context of their own society. What the gender-having people are, hurts no one, the only negative to themselves is the egregious abuse they recieve for it, and then they get their brains scrambled by the State for nonconformity. The people who have 'deviant' genders, simply want to be left alone to live normally, just like people do here on Earth. The context of how they obtain this ingrained immutable characteristic is pretty much entirely immaterial, and clearly there isn't some kind of species brain difference that would make it not immoral for them to take away a person's free will in this matter. Side note: I love Jonathan Frakes, man. He was, and continues to be, a really dang cool dude and staunch ally.

Ian Tellam

Evolution simply means change over generations, it needn't be biological. There is a concept of cultural, or societal evolution. Used in this context it's a term that's largely fallen out of favour in the modern day, but I tend to understand it in this sense when it's brought up in Star Trek, as meaningful biological evolution is unlikely to be possible in the sort of timeframes they're discussing here, unless their generational turnover is much quicker (which doesn't seem to be the case with most of the humanoid species).

GAB

Stark Trek? Sounds like a porn spoof version.

Stuart_Design

Stark Trek would actually be a good show idea: Captain Ned Stark voyages North of the Great Galactic Wall to subdue a growing community of Red shirts who, tired being used as cannon-fodder on away missions, now just want to live as 'free-folk'

REDR58

Think of how the “r-word” has seen a resurgence in use.

REDR58

Cause and Effect The episode is directed by Jonathan Frakes. What would you do if you realized you’re in a show? You’d have “The Truman Show.” This is the only time the exterior view looking into the main shuttle bay is seen in this entire series.

WastedPo

True. It's one of the more obvious examples. But I honestly think that there are many more things inherent to TNG that those same people would be crashing out over even before getting to The Outcast. For example, Patrick Stewart's reading of "Space, the Final Frontier" at the beginning changed it from "where no man has gone before" from the original series to the gender-neutral "where no one has gone before." That alone would've elicited many Twitter rants and Ben Shapiro video essays.

Vinnero

Outcast remined me again that I would love for Cinebing to go through The Orville

Monica Alarcon

The novel Star Trek: Ship of the Line has more information about how the Bozeman got stuck in the time loop and how it's crew adapted after this episode ended. Warning. It should be read after Star trek: Generations as it has spoilers for the movie and sets elements of the next movie "First Contact".

The Real Andrew Kim

I think it's worth stating that "The Outcast" is less of a gender norms story and is much more of a coming out story. At this point in the late80s/early 90s, the idea of transgender or non-binary was not really in the conversation in mass media. And yes, most people did not delineate the difference between gender and sex and treated them as the same thing. I think the writers thought making a neutral gender species was a clever way to talk about feelings of homosexuality without actually having a same sex interaction on screen and Sorin's main speech was talking about the oppression of the closeted gay or lesbian person. I think the writer's unintentionally sidestepped themselves into also writing a story about transgender and non-binary peoples as well and thus became one of the greatest episodes of television in the process to represent LGBTQ community regardless of its flaws.

Robert Gendron

Yeah, how many times has Picard referred to humans as having evolved past certain traits, like greed. We certainly aren't going through a leap of biological evolution away from greed in just 300 years. Societies also evolve.

I Want A Hypothalamus For Christmas

George, in your speculations you have unintentionally (?) described the situation on the famous "Brigadoon Planet," which became a rogue planet when it encountered a causality loop and left its star system some 50,000 years ago. The inhabitants, unaware of their predicament, have been reliving the same events -- foreign military operations, the same President, reruns of the same TV shows -- for 500 centuries. Besides the existential ramifications, it raises serious questions in physics about the relationship between Time and Gravity. I think we've discussed this subject before.

Levi Curry

Since the deck is usually shuffled after every hand, card counting is not helpful in poker. It's a technique done with blackjack, and despite what Stu in The Hangover would have you believe, it is not illegal and it is not cheating. You're simply using publicly available information and a good memory.

photos_by_geoff

I stopped at 36:48 to state that this gender discrimination is a direct parallel to the issue of gay people at this time when this show aired. My mother was a lesbian and she was always introducing us to people who had to go through struggles of not being excepted for who they were. Back then (and in some case still today) it was widely thought that it was a choice of what you were inside and that if you went through shock or mental treatments,that you would be "fixed" from thinking you were gay. This has so many parallels, that I just had to point then out to those who might not see what is being said in the early 1990s here.

Rav Low

To give the perspective one queer person here: 1) I took "evolved" as social evolution. Like how nowadays most people don't believe in the divine right of kings. So not necessarily biological evolution, but cultural/social evolution. 2) This episode is absolutely a trans/gay allegory. I think it's very clever and useful that they had the story be about a character with a female actor expressing the desire to transition to being female from "agender." For it's time this is an excellent way to present the idea in a way that viewers may have been receptive to, where a direct trans story would likely have been rejected out of hand. The episode received criticism at the time, but I think a lot of folks struggle with grappling with the fact that to get a counter-cultural message or view point to the majority and have them receive it, you almost always have to ease them into it in a lens they are comfortable with, at least at first. 3) I do get what George was saying however, and I liked the conflict between the prime directive and respecting the individual rights of Soren. However two aspects I think george missed that are interesting: -Soren had every opportunity to request asylum and chose to be a martyr for gendered J'naii in an act of incredible bravery. Riker's chauvanism and selfishness led him to move to try and extract her against her wishes. -Picard DID support riker, subtly. "are we finished with our business with the J'naii?" Picard could not OFFICIALLY sanction Riker's desired actions. But he could provide an official excuse to remain in system and look the other way, and wag his finger at Riker, should he have succeeded in the extraction.

Rav Low

This is a great point. The word "Evolution" is a propaganda piece.

Rav Low

Also, as someone else pointed out "Evolution" is undoubtedly a term used as propaganda by the J'naii government to portray gender as "regressive" and "deviant"

Jomero

The main person responsible for my Trek fandom was a friend from high school. His love for Trek, during a time when it was EXTREMELY socially uncool to be a geek, was very infectious for me. The episode that initially hooked him was Cause and Effect, as he had no knowledge of the show and happened to just catch the beginning. It intrigued him enough to keep watching. He passed away 20 years ago. But his love for the show, and our little inside jokes per episode, still live on in my heart.

Ronan Suar

i'd like Simmone to explaine her thought's because i feel that sometimes she just stay silent, cool reaction guys!

Cc Decc

Heh -- you might want to tell the mobsters behind the casinos that. Since card counting successfully WILL give you an edge and make winning more likely, they aren't having any of that, and will kick you right out curbside, hopefully with your fingers still all pointing the same direction.

Cc Decc

I will sidestep the inevitable Outcast drama and note I got a chuckle out of Simone's "its not like they can just explode the enterprise" at the beginning of Cause and Effect, given that after a while that is ALL every single Star Trek movie did. The Enterprise became like "the Last of the V-8 Interceptors" in Mad Max lore, this legendary thing that nonetheless was run down and destroyed every single bleeping movie. In the future you couldn't pay me to take a ride on the Enterprise -- I value my skin too much, and it appears to be made out of cardboard.

Paul Peavler

I don’t know where this idea came from that you’re not supposed to apply human ideals to other species in Trek (well, I have an idea), but that’s like, the whole point. It’s not hard sci-fi, it’s classic sci-fi exploring humanity through the lens of outsiders as a means to generate empathy. By the time Roddenberry created TNG he had fully bought into his own legend as a visionary for a communist utopian human future and TNG was supposed to represent a future evolved version of humanity looking back at our modern (ie 80s-90s) selves via alien allegories and then specifically making value judgments about modern society based on that. The Outcast was explicitly about gay rights. There’s no point in considering “well if it’s evolutionary, then it’s like a tail, and…” because none of that matters. It’s not real. It’s a made up story with made up characters with the sole intent to be about LGBTQ rights, and specifically to make you feel empathy for LGBTQ people. I’ve been watching the channel for years, long before any Trek reactions, and I generally really love the content, but the TNG reactions have gotten so difficult to watch. Every time there’s an episode that focuses on a real world topic like this we go through the same discussion about “not applying human values to other species” when that’s almost always the whole point of the episode. Even if the conclusion is that “yes, here is the moral argument against what is happening and it’s correct but it’s not our place to enforce that for political reasons.” And if that is the conclusion you’re generally not supposed to feel good about it. So if you (and I guess I’m speaking mainly to George here) keep going into these episodes expecting that kind of apolitical or amoral viewpoint on other cultures from the protagonists or the writers, then Trek just isn’t the franchise that’s going to give that to you. By and large, TNG is the closest you’ll ever get to that, and most shows after TNG get more messy and more explicitly political and woke, often making the allegory literally explicit to human history. DS9 in particular is going to be difficult to watch because on a messy scale of 0-10, this episode is like an 8 for TNG but like a 4 at best for DS9. And there’s so much there that is amazing (it’s my favorite series), but if you’re going into it with this mentality, you’re not going to be able to enjoy it for what it’s supposed to be. I mean, there’s an episode where a hyper capitalist alien quotes Karl Marx while organizing a union, which is illegal for his planet ffs. Nobody involved in that intended for the viewer to be confused about the value judgements at play. Everyone that worked on that show was woke as hell and they’ve talked in documentaries about how their only complaint is that they couldn’t be even more woke and explicit in the allegories.

blerbaberpaterb

its almost like art can be interpreted in more than 1 way by different people... you dont have to agree with them, but neither do other people have to agree with you. proclaiming what you interpret must be right and everything else is 'difficult to listen to' is a sign of a closed mind.

Paul Peavler

Tell me what part of what I said was wrong about any of the creators or Trek in general. If you don’t think Trek was made by a bunch of people with an explicitly political agenda, well, as they say, you’re entitled to your wrong opinion. And the incongruity is only going to get harder to rationalize when they start quoting Marx or showing clips of Jan 6 or referring to WW2 resistance cells.

blerbaberpaterb

lmao. yep thats the problem, thanks for proving my point, you can only perceive all this as 'right' vs 'wrong'. at no point did i say how you interpret things were wrong. in fact i was saying the opposite, that multiple interpretations of things is possible. but youre so eager to just argue and make a stance that you perceive everything as just black and white, as an argument of whos right whos wrong.

DemNikoArt

Regarding the outcast and the evolution part: To use George's allegory: If you lived in a universe where all other species still have their tails and you evolved past it. And all you see it people running around with them. Also Riker would tell you how awesome it is, you can hang from a tree, grab stuff with it and so on. I could see becoming curious about what it would be like to have one 😀 And it would still fit with the aspect that some evolved to have one again and are happy.

Phosphorus

I also think the word evolved was used in the middle of a monologue like it was paraphrased from the "official narrative", so one shouldn't discount the possibility that it was used precisely to elicit the reaction that George was having: "oh if we (biologically) evolved to this state then it is only right not to regress to a previous state" when in reality, that could've been used very loosely to plant the idea that they changed to their currently state naturally (as opposed to being forced through by a section of society) into a more "advanced" form, all to justify what their society does regarding this issue.

Levi Curry

Casinos always have the right to kick you out for any reason and the mob does what the mob does. Card counting is still legal.

Michael Daw

Simone's "Crash Test Dummies" reference is peak Canadiana. 🥰 Great song, great band.

TexasNight

No ones knows exactly how long Phil Conners was stuck in the loop in "Groundhog Day", but occurring to an article in 'Collider' the filmmakers believe it is somewhere between 12 and1/2 year (4,576 days) and almost 34 years (12,395 days). In one version of the original script the time was "10,000" years.

Elisa H.

Ah cause and effect. One of my top episodes. And possibly my first experience with a time loop storyline which helps begin my love of time travel stories. Love the filming of the scenes at different angles so it's not repetitive.

Elisa H. (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-05 05:00 Question for star trek people. Since media seems to be all intellectual and with value, do you think there is just for fun media in this time. Like reality shows, comics, soap operas, talk shows, etc ?
2026-08-05 18:51 Question for star trek people. Since media seems to be all intellectual and with value, do you think there is just "for fun" media in this time. Like reality shows, comics, soap operas, talk shows, etc ?

Question for star trek people. Since media seems to be all intellectual and with value, do you think there is just "for fun" media in this time. Like reality shows, comics, soap operas, talk shows, etc ?

Michael Daw

Ensign Ro: "We're losing attitude control!" Me: "You never HAD attitude control!!"

REDR58

They seem to be very interested in classical music, jazz, and chess. And poker.

Paul Peavler

Sure, you can interpret things multiple ways, nobody’s stopping you. Plenty of people interpret Starship Troopers to be pro-fascism. But by the time Doogie Howser shows up in a Temu SS uniform and starts running experiments on a living being in a concentration camp, maybe if that’s your interpretation it says more about you than it does the people that understood when Paul Verhoeven said that the whole point was to be uncomfortable by the uniforms and the militarism and the ignorant confidence of the government because it’s supposed to be an anti fascist story through the lens of satire, “what if the fascists got everything they wanted” as Paul said. Some things are intentionally left to interpretation. Some things are deliberately gray areas. DS9 loves to do both and it’s my favorite series. But some things are just what they are on their face. If you watched The Outcast and came away with the conclusion that “conversion therapy works” as some people did, then I’m not going to stop you, I’m just going to point out that the people that made the episode have explicitly said that wasn’t their intention and their main regret is that they couldn’t be more explicit (eg by hiring a male actor as Frakes has mentioned). Also, the funny part is that I never said anything about their interpretations being philosophically right or wrong, I didn’t necessarily disagree with most of what George said about evolution and language and applying human concepts to aliens. What I said was that George seems to go into all of these episodes with the mentality that you’re not supposed to judge alien species by human values but that’s almost always the whole point of the episode. It’s about the framing and foundation of the franchise and going into it with open eyes about what to expect, because otherwise he’s going to be having the same debate like every other episode by season 2 of DS9. By the time we get to an episode where they go back in time and are like “damn this economy is unacceptable and these people are racist af” or storylines that are very thinly veiled Israel-Palestine allegories, if you spend more time debating whether or not we can judge aliens for being warrior species then you’re spending less time on the debate the show wants you to have, which is how to handle that warrior fascist culture’s colonialism and imperialism. It’s you that’s turning it into a debate about the morals at hand, probably because you always seem to turn up in my replies when I mention that Trek is explicitly political and those politics are explicitly leftist.

REDR58

As regards the gender/sex thing, I distinctly recall when Simone and George reacted to RoboCop, the scene in which RoboCop heads to the police headquarters and looks up the file on one of the criminals he’s encountered. On the screen for the “rap sheet” is shown a number of different classifications such as “Alias ID”, “Voice Print”, “Photo ID” and “Sex”. George questioned why it listed “sex” on that screen. It was obvious to me and some older people I’m sure, that the intent of the filmmakers was meant “sex” as “gender” as an identification characteristic. Back 1987, forms were still asking for “sex” rather than gender.

REDR58

Melinda Culea who played Soren should be familiar to fans of “The A-Team” as “ Amy Amanda Allen” who was on the show for the first season and a half.

REDR58

Correct. All the J'naii actors were women.

REDR58

From Memory Alpha (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Outcast_(episode)): The actresses cast in the episode had their voices electronically lowered and they were outfitted in masculine clothes for their role. According to Michael Piller, "We wanted to go midway between males and females, and we tried it with both actors and actresses and found that it worked best with actresses." While the producers tried not to let public perceptions of what was acceptable "influence us too much...", Rick Berman conceded, "but having Riker engaged in passionate kisses with a male actor might have been a little unpalatable to viewers."

REDR58

From Memory Alpha: The actresses cast in the episode had their voices electronically lowered and they were outfitted in masculine clothes for their role. According to Michael Piller, "We wanted to go midway between males and females, and we tried it with both actors and actresses and found that it worked best with actresses." While the producers tried not to let public perceptions of what was acceptable "influence us too much...", Rick Berman conceded, "but having Riker engaged in passionate kisses with a male actor might have been a little unpalatable to viewers." https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Outcast_(episode)

James W.

There seems to be rich fantasy lives in holodecks and holosuites, as well as some characters having more "old timey" hobbies through the various shows. The TNG crew seem pretty buttoned up overall but there are outliers like Barclay. Also, I think their adherence to using "classical" art forms has more to do with not feeling dated like lots of the sci-fi of the 80s and 90s which are often very pronouncedly of their time. Star Trek usually feels like "Trek" rather than feeling very 80s or 90s with some obvious exceptions.

Hammond of Texas

Cause and Effect is one of my favorite episodes, so I'm watching it first!!

Guts

Red Letter Media acquired the model of the exploding Enterprise. They have an episode on it.

James W.

517, I get why George is over intellectualizing their approach to gender norms and sex in the episode but it wasn't something that wasn't deeply examined at the time, at least not in the mainstream. They are basically speaking directly to the lowest common denominator of viewer who have no idea what parthenogenesis is. We're barely addressing other lifestyle choices now so the fact that they even tried back then was surprising. Really though, they are just using Soren's attraction to Riker as a stand-in for them basically being queer in their society. Soren comes out to Riker in a similar way a gay person might in our society. Similar to how mutant powers in modern X-Men stories going back to the 80s and 90s were using "mutant" as a catch al for different so pretty much every marginalized group started seeing elements of their struggle in the various mutants. I just think its crazy that Riker is the consummate man-whore who is always thrust into pretty much every remotely sexually charged plot. As much as Troi gets mind raped to a disturbing degree, RIker is just pelvis first in every interaction to a problematic level by modern standards.

fforw

If we're discussing the ethical implications of a plot, it kinda makes no sense to say "well, she's just a plot device". To discuss the implications is to enter that world and take that situation as-is. *She* is a person that feels different than her society commonly says is permissible. As far as the prime directive goes, of course they can't officially take sides in an internal matter, but Riker is not dating Soren in a private capacity. And as a private person he can of course support his friend and share her view of what she is and should be allowed to do.

Cally

In "Cause and Effect" they should have displayed the episode title every time the loop resets to the Captain's Log, just to screw with people.

REDR58

That 4th breaking wall of “Northern Exposure” is fantastic!

REDR58

Heck, the bridge of the USS Enterprise D alone is fantastically large compared to modern naval and civilian ships like carriers and cargo vessels.

REDR58

My biggest problem with “The Outcast” is how in the hell does Riker get away with what he does at the end? Clearly he was seen and Worf even fought off two of security guards! The J'naii just kinda let that slide!? I mean, how many humans have been on their planet recently? Why isn’t Krite calling up Picard and screaming about how and why in the hell did his officers assault their guards?

Hammond of Texas

Someone made a conscious decision to do this, with their brain, and it's bloody brilliant. Also....I just noticed for the first time that Worf is not present at the officer's briefing in the early time loops, because they don't yet know there's a threat to the ship.

Angela's invisible airfryer (corey)

In regards to the first episode, and star trek as a whole I guess, it's important to remember the distinctions between moral relativism and moral universalism. George has mentioned many times respecting other species customs absolutely, which to me reads very morally relativistic (though I could be deadass wrong). I myself am more morally universalistic, at least for some cases. For example, I firmly believe that every intelligent being has the right to autonomy regardless of culture. I couldn't care less if an alien species has a history spanning 2 billion years and commands a dozen star systems, if they have a tradition of disrespecting autonomy, I believe they are wrong. If I had the power I would defend anyone's autonomy, with force if necessary. For this case, I would definitely follow Riker. But am I right? Are moral relativism absolutists right? That's a hefty debate for sure, lol.

Dan

Regarding the first episode... I think George's "Don't impose your human morality" principle will never be as strongly challenged as it could be by Star Trek as family-friendly light(ish) entertainment. IRL there are more morally outrageous (to most of us) practices that are accepted and condoned in certain human societies, let alone the sort of thing a species from a completely different evolutionary background could come up with. Also, George was unhappy that the androgynous state being more "evolved" and I think both George and the Starfleet characters didn't challenge the idea that "evolved" (in the Darwinian sense) implies generally or morally superior. Unless you believe there's some divine intervention going on (and it doesn't seem that any of the characters do) Darwinian "fitness" is only superior in a pretty narrow sense. Furthermore, it might not be the case that a minority characteristic has really been evolved "past" at all. There are some characteristics which are beneficial (in Darwinian terms) when they are minority characteristics below a certain threshold but detrimental in a population when the incidence rises beyond that threshold. Populations will then tend to evolve such that that threshold percentage (where it stops being beneficial) of the minority characteristic persists. (Eg, from memory, certain unconventional mating strategies - I think this is mentioned in The Selfish Gene.)

Dan

To be fair the J'naii "won" that encounter by way of effecting the "treatment" prior to the rescue attempt and IRL it's a pretty common (though certainly not universal) diplomatic strategy not to make it a big public issue when the other side were in the diplomatic wrong doing something sneaky and you beat them. Probably better to keep the incident in your pocket to apply pressure in a future negotiation and to avoid risking provoking your own people into opposing any future deal you might want to do with the Federation.

Dan

It's kinda funny because the "detective noir" genre fiction that Picard enjoys wasn't (and probably still isn't to the extent of literary fiction) seen as being all that worthy yet it seems to get a pass because it's old. Though you could probably say the same thing about Shakespeare... I feel it is a bit of a weakness of the show that it overly-concentrates on overly worthy pursuits. I think after a hard day saving the galaxy a more mindless computer game is a fine way to relax but the only time we see one in the show it's an addictive Trojan horse. It kinda stands out after a time that they're always listening to classical music or doing am-dram.

TyWorth

Have George and Simone talked about any plans for DS9?

Dan

They're doing the whole franchise in (pretty much) broadcast order, IIRC.

Adam Morgan

The word evolve can also be used in different ways, and not necessarily the biological process: An author may evolve a story over multiple drafts. Someone may study philosophy a describe themselves as having an evolved consciousness. If you level up a character, you can describe that as evolving the character. Even if it is in the sense of developing a species, biological essentialism doesn't necessarily answer everything. This is an allegory for homosexuality but, from a strictly biological point of view, homosexuality is as pointless as a human considering their non-existent tail. It not only serves no purpose, it actively undermines the likelihood of propagating genes to a subsequent generation. If homosexuality were a fictional concept, it would make no logical sense; yet it still exists. Strictly logical biology is clearly not the only answer. (There are theories about why homosexuality exists but. as far as I am aware, the science is still uncertain.)

funky weapon

So back in 1992 we had gay protestors crashing the Arsenio Hall Show, gay panic, conversion therapy, the Westboro Baptist Church, and about less than a decade between the start of the AIDS epidemic and this episode. It is wildly progressive for it's time, let alone today. The gender stuff at the time was to dress up homosexuality in scifi terms the home audience could understand. But everything in this episode is about the struggle gays had to be accepted in mainstream society. It's kinda funny to watch an episode designed to get a largely homophobic audience to empathize with gay people be recontextualized by the modern lens of the LGBT struggles involving trans people. Also, even though Frakes has said he wanted soren to be more male presenting, that would've probably been a hugely controversial decision. I'm talking top story on the 6pm news hour. Politicians would've had soundbites decrying Star Trek as propaganda trying to influence young minds and destroy the fabric of society. We laugh at that now but that shit was very real back then and it could have serious consequences. So yeah, I get why trek wouldn't go as far as to make soren male presenting. There was a fine line to tread back then and this episode treads it beautifully.

Dan

My niggle with the second episode is that they (Picard) could absolutely change course as a result of a suspected causality loop triggered by a future event - given that you wouldn't have that suspicion on the first loop. And then to get more technical if you can get any data at all (such as the snatches of conversation but even useless data) you can hash that and use it to seed a random number generator, then start changing course/decisions based on that to avoid repeating the exact same mistake. The difficulty is knowing how much you need to vary things but they should at least make the attempt.

djKENTO

hey George, Star Trek was not "day-time TV". It was aired in prime time on weekends or right before primetime around 7pm or right after at 10pm. It was up to the station, but nobody was airing this during the day.

REDR58

It was also originally broadcast not on network TV (like ABC/CBS/NBC) but instead in syndication, that is, not locked to a single network. In my case, it was on the local FOX affiliate, WTXF 29 (originally WTAF) and later WPGS 57 (I think, repeats). Here is a list of all known original broadcast channels in the US: https://broadcastsyndication.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation

REDR58

I remember the “controversy” about a same-sex kiss on DS9.

Maerandir Eldar

This is pretty much what I came here to say - in this context, I think it's quite clear the word "evolved" was a propagandized term, used to normalize an institutionalized, even indoctrinated societal norm. Keep in mind this was filmed only a few months after the fall of the Soviet Union, wherein male homosexuality had been a criminal offense (the Russian state, to this day, has a "don't ask don't tell" policy in place), and it was still highly taboo in much of the United States at this time. Thirty five years ago, producing this episode for prime time TV was incredibly bold.

Dan

I can see that causing real problems when some network broadcasting it thinks it really has gone wrong, though.

Dan

Within the context of their own society they believe they are helping, not punishing or "scrambling" (so the "afflicted" not hurting anyone isn't really the point).

Will Sofer

They’re doing the entire Star Trek universe.

djKENTO

yeah here in the bay area it was channel 44 which was a totally independent station. They played it at 8pm in the middle of the week depending on ratings and what they had to compete with at the time. Same with DS9. Their dedication to making Trek prime time TV for over a decade is what got them their UPN affiliate contract right away.

REDR58

I vaguely recall it was on at 7:00 pm on Thursday nights here in the Philadelphia area for the new episode and possibly repeated on a weekend night as well?

Will Sofer

Far more recent examples in the Marvel universe include “Deadpool” obviously, as well as “She-Hulk”. While it’s a part of both of their schticks, the latter is completely Fourth Wall breaking, and even integral to the plot (both in the original comics, and the live action adaptation).

Will Sofer

Exactly. Evolution occurs in response to evolutionary pressures, but they also need not be solely biological. Societal pressures can select for certain traits, and it’s made clear that this is what has happened. Jh’nai society selected for androgyny, and eventually, it became taboo to express any gender identity whatsoever. They were clearly some sort of hermaphroditic species before with individuals that identified with a gender and more overtly expressed a biological sex, that artificially selected for asexuality and androgyny. So yes, they did “evolve”, including biologically, but evolution is not a straight line, and variation can always lead to new ways in which a species can “evolve”, sometimes radically.

Will Sofer

Indeed. You might walk around for a half hour and not see anyone else.

James W.

Channel 44 was dope, KOFY and Channel 36 also had goo stuff when I was kid. Bay Area TV stations felt solid. even before the advent of cable TV.

djKENTO

And Sutro Tower is a legit super strong broadcast antenna. I’m up in Sonoma county in the north bay and we got every station easy.

MacGuffinStuff

OUTCAST hits hard. This show is amazing. Yeah people since forever have contemplated why they're attracted to the people they are. I have nothing to say about that except that when two people really truly love each other, Mind your business. But seriously, I don't recall ever seeing this episode when I was a kid, I'm blown away, the depth, this episode and so many like it are astonishing.

Andrew

George has clearly never played poker before. Strategy and bluffing is far more important than math in poker.

gfixler

I wonder if George is getting hung up on the word "evolve", because it's strongly used in terms of genetic evolution, which is a very specific form of evolution. The word also just means "develop gradually, especially from a simple to a more complex form." Like a business's practices can evolve. Your thoughts can evolve as you learn more. I remember getting hung up on that word in the past, because I only really knew it as the genetic variety, and had to later learn the other meaning(s). When she said they had evolved, with that in mind, I actually took it more to mean they had developed practices over time, techniques, science, chemistry, etc. for whatever reason (sex is dirty, maybe?), and now felt more evolved over their old ways, like how Vulcans evolved to suppress their feelings, which really was just the society building laws, rules, practices, meditation, and a bunch of other things to quell their bloodthirst.

Simone's Coconut Squire

Re: George’s take on impulse vs evolution. Not all impulses are dictated by evolution. There are people today who identify as androgynous or genderless and there is no evolutionary root for that.

Angzarr

I tend to dislike time travel story lines as trite, but this is one that I think was done very well (even though I agree with George that the mechanics at the end make no sense... at the end of the loop, you should bounce back to the starting time, not time continuing but with the same events repeating... After 100 repetitions of a 1 hour time loop, 1 hour has passed, not 100!) I have often wondered how much time was saved in production for this episode, seeing as much of the material could be reused between loops and even what changes can mostly be shot as part of the same block without resetting. I suppose the big bada boom was fairly expensive. If it wasn't for that, it would have made a great bottle episode. EDIT: hmm, a klein bottle episode? I can't help but hear 1:24:52 as if it's an old school pull-the-string style speaking Worf doll 😆 And right after that... once again a case where the whole episode could have been avoided if they'd followed Worf's advice. 1:32:30 "I don't remember these events, but your phase is familiar" Right, I'll see myself out...

Rob Steere

I was about 15 when this first aired. I still remember the house phone ringing about 10 seconds into the opening credits. It was my best friend and he yelled "What the f*** was that?!?!?" I yelled "I know!" and that was the end of the conversation.

Rob Steere

There's a group in NYC called "Improv Everywhere" that does flashmobs and group events around the city, both big and small. One of their first events was to take the loop idea from "Cause and Effect" and for one hour create a 5-minute long time loop in a coffee shop in the city. A troupe of 8-10 actors did the same thing for an hour. Some were big things like a couple standing in line having an argument and she storms out followed by him, or someone walking through with a noticeable song playing out loud on their phone (which was the signal of the start of a new loop). But also little things like someone working on a laptop who spills water on the table and walks over to get napkins to wipe it up. After a couple loops other customers started noticing the big things, followed by the realization that other smaller things were looping, too. Unfortunately this was before they thought to video their events.

TechJJ

There's enough great comments on the level of boldness of conveying real struggles and forced suppression and "straightening" of the "deviants". Orville, which many of Trek fans identified as part of "true" Star Trek, did tackle this polarizing issue with all male species and forced gender reassignment storylines. I actually wouldn't mind seen Simone and George react to Orville. But I want to give a shout out to U.S.S. Bozeman. It looks very much like the U.S.S. Reliant hijacked by Khan in ST II:TWOK. Reliant is a Mirada-class ship in late 22nd century, while Bozeman is a Miranda-class variant - Soyuz class in early 23rd century. So Bozeman and Reliant are sister-ships!

gfixler

I remember having George's time thoughts back when Click was in previews on TV. I thought about what it would be like if the remote also worked on you. Play would do nothing. Stop and pause would just freeze you and everything else for all eternity. Fast-forward would be okay, but you'd race past things, I guess. I don't know how you'd tell things are faster, if everything, including you, are all racing forward together. Rewind is a scary one, because it's just like pause. You would immediately rewind to a point before you hit the button, start playing again, and hit rewind. You'd be in an infinitesimally small bounce between playing and rewinding for all eternity.

dys

Or like how our current US president just 10 or 12 years ago thought the ban on people using the bathroom of the gender they identified as in one state was ridiculous but now it's somehow a new crazy far-left idea that trans women are women and trans men are men.

REDR58

And looks like a few of the episodes are already up!

REDR58

Just the other night, I happened to catch an old episode of TNG via my 60+ year old Winegard Colortron TV antenna that is mounted in the attic of the house. It was left behind when I moved in and is so old it advertises being able to receive black and white and color TV! After we got rid of cable TV about 10 years ago, I hooked up the antenna to some of my TVs and it works just fine. I don’t remember which channel had TNG but next time it comes on, I’ll make a note of it. I had to fine tune the antenna a little bit. I guess it got bumped around over the years, but I’ve got it locked in towards the giant broadcast tower farms in Philadelphia: https://www.radioworld.com/tech-and-gear/facilities/in-philadelphia-broadcasting-begins-in-roxborough About a month or so ago, I bought a brand new TV antenna and I have a combiner setup so the signals from both antennas are combined and I get a lot more channels that I did with the old antenna alone, about 60 in all.

REDR58

Oh and djKENTO, I just looked up the Sutro Tower you mentioned. That is so cool! It’s a really interesting-looking tower!

djKENTO

My twitch stream has a “pirate broadcast” theme where I have a wireframe of the tower spinning as my intro. It’s pretty sick. One of my favorite Bay Area landmarks.

Robert Mendoza

Every time Simone doesn't remember an episode it makes me feel better about my messed up memory. The Outcast: I was brought up in a very conservative Christian household and this episode made me think a lot at the time. It's not perfect but it served it's purpose at least for me it did. Sorens speech was great and it makes me emotional so well done actress. I have to really agree with Simone, mind your business Krite, you narc. Cause and Effect is some kind of a magic trick to keep repeating scenes but make such a fun episode.

punterjoe

Two classic episodes in one sitting. The Outcast is classic Trek. It's almost "too pure" Trek to be airable. It deals with (I almost said "tackles", but nothing is resolved) really thorny philosophical issues. Gene's "evolved" universe of IDIC vs the non-interference Prime Directive. I don't know if there WAS a point - other than to get folks thinking long and hard about the subject. As for Cause & Effect, it's a fun concept to play with, and they did it well here. I think the same writer also did an episode of the '90s "Outer Limits" with Kevin Nealon and a very similar theme - only with a squirm worthy Outer Limits ending. Worth checking out.

punterjoe

Yeah, I'm surprised Rick Berman let it go as far as it did. I can easily see this as one of those "if only..." legendary unproduced scripts. I suspect they had to fight hard to get this through - even in this watered down version. I'm certain this faced more front office opposition than, say.... Code of Honor 🙄

punterjoe

Language itself is (often not deliberately) propaganda. We slap a label onto a concept and make it a "word". The labels are never perfect fits, and much of the nuance of the original concept gets stripped away. That's what I loved about "arrival" - how the terms you use to describe your perception to yourself affects how you perceive the world. The world is what it is, whether you perceive it well or not. Gender binary is an oversimplification that works - until it doesn't. Like Newtonian physics. 😏

punterjoe

I'm sure it's just a matter of time.

Thomas Larsen

"Stop trying to bone everyone" is very much like How to train your dragon's "you just gestured to all of me" hehe

Al

Cause and Effect is a fun episode. But we can't be too bothered about time travel paradoxes because they are pure fiction (when it comes to traveling back in time or so-called time loops). This would violate ideas of causality that are established in physics. The arrow of time and entropy. So, while it is a great fictional landscape, don't get too frustrated trying to get it to make sense - because it can't.

Angzarr

John Scalzi's "Redshirts" is literally Star Trek where the characters become aware they're in a show. And I suppose Galaxy Quest is the exact opposite.

Brandon

I think you are looking at the 80's and 90's through rose colored glasses here. Rush Limbaugh's show began in the 80's and exploded in popularity by the early 90's. The mid 90's is also when Fox News started. This stuff didn't just begin in 2015 when a certain person began his first campaign for President, nor did it begin with social media. There were decades of work that led to the current presidential administration and the normalization of its practices by the media.

TalynOne

Yes, Fox and Rush existed but they were considered the fringe, now they're the people in power in every corner of society. Everything was by design, Fox was created to make sure somebody like Nixon would not be punished simply for committing crimes (literally).

The One True Chris

@08:15 -- George says "whoa, in the 80s." This episode aired in 1992.

Thomas88

I know someone said it, but just my opinion on the Outcast Its a 90s episode but the concept came up in the 80s. Also George said "daytime TV" that wahat got it so much critism.... back in the days, this was as much as you could "try" on this subject. Specially about convertiontherapy. That was a bold move, but it worked and like "Darmok", "First duty" and "measure of a man" its one of the episodes that gets used in university to study the subject they show. thats how good it was done

Geoff Richards

I knew George would chuckle at the line I was waiting for, "I'll run a pattern matching algorithm on the number three". Some of the most hilariously daft technobabble.

Geoff Richards

Oh, and Patreon post is titled "Stark Trek", just so you know :-)

Kyle Baker

In Poker the cards are shuffled every hand. So 'counting' isn't a thing. What Data can do is remember every card dealt face up even after it's folded, but any Stud player of any quality can do that anyway.

Chrissonator

Came here to say that very thing. haha

Alec Zrike

I'm pretty sure that, given a long enough run, every sci-fi show has a "Groundhog Day" episode.

Runes N Raccoons

The fact that the r-word is coming back is a major symptom of how our society is losing so much empathy. I will continue to call out people who use it, but it's a drop in the bucket.

Runes N Raccoons

This, and it's a reason why I disagree with George's point that Riker is merely applying human morals on an alien race. Soren's monologue about how her male classmate was treated shows that this goes well past gender being a biological or medical issue. For example, if a human was born with 6 functional fingers (they feel no pain and function exactly as well as everyone else), they might be teased by their peers, but they wouldn't be arrested, have the 6th finger forcibly chopped off, then brainwashed into thinking thet were unhappy with 6 fingers, and then forced to stand in front of their school, declaring that they were happy they were cured. They would just continue living with 6 fingers. It's telling that this is societal oppression because feeling a gender has become ILLEGAL.

Runes N Raccoons

I'm 100% certain that the Outcast is what inspired the Moclans and their entire story line.

Jay

Oh really Paul? They used the term "woke" in DS9 documentaries and how they wish they could be "more woke"? ROLLS EYES VERY HARD.

Paul Peavler

In the documentary “What We Left Behind,” Ira Steven Behr at one point makes a list of progressive topics they tried to cover on DS9 and laments that they couldn’t do more, particularly by featuring a gay character/couple.