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Star Trek: TNG 611-612 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-10-14 12:00:08
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2026-10
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Comments

Mastervodo

I love Simone's "Sssssspace... fuck" or "Ssssssspace ... nailed it!" intros.

Joel

THERE. ARE. FOUR. LIGHTS!!!!!

Raven Dark

You beat me to it. :D

Jimazoid

There are 4 Episode Reactions This Week!

TalynOne

Jellico is a great captain for American military since he has no qualms fostering an environment where orders are followed without question, it makes committing war crimes super easy. Not so much if you buy into Gene's vision of Starfleet not being a military first organization that fosters cooperation and collaboration. Riker was completely in character, in episode 1 it was established he disobeyed direct orders from his previous Captain by not allowing him to beam down to an away mission to insure his safety. Picard, being intelligent, welcomed someone who could challenge him. There's nothing wrong with Riker arguing for the Captain's safety. It's just discussion, he didn't disobey any orders. If simple discussion bothers you that much that you think you need to relieve someone of duty then you don't belong in Starfleet, you're better of in 21st century militaries. Jellico is why we have Badmirals trope. He would make a perfect Badmiral. I understand why George likes Jellico, I don't think he buys into the utopia vision of Star Trek he wants Star Trek to be grim dark war mongering horror fest.

Hasan Ahmad

as a TNG and Star Trek fan i really don't like the way George reacts to this series lol. I only watch for Simone rewatch.

Mike W

I do like hearing different takes, its the beauty of reactions for me. Personally I've never thought of starfleet as military though, they can do it sure but its not their primary purpose. A military starfleet is more like the empire from the mirror universe.

Jaaahn

what is he saying that you find so disagreeable?

Matrim

I definitely think Will was out of line. Could Jellico have handled things better? Probably, but I don’t think he ever overstepped. Will blowing up at Jellico I totally get, but the scene in his quarters was very petty.

ChiefKC

Star Trek Day!

Kieran Hawk

One of the more unrealistic aspects of Star Trek is that Riker still had a career after this episode...

StonyD

Because the "American military" are the ones who perform "war crimes" LMAO! You sound Canadian ;p But I agree with your take on Jellico and Riker's interactions

TalynOne

All militaries commit atrocities, America is just the most familiar. Canadian military is why have the Geneva conventions, they broke all the rules the convention set up in response to what the Canadians did.

Runes N Raccoons

And honestly, Riker kind of proved Jellico's point during the scene in his quarters.

StonyD

Between this and Wolf 359, it's a testament to Jean-Luc Picard's resolve that he stayed in Starfleet. Tortured in two different ways. I wonder if any actual POWs went right back into active service once they were freed.

Mastervodo

6x11 is one of my favorite Star Trek episodes. Great performance by Stewart. And David Warner, the Kardashian torturer. Friggin Kardashians.

John Miller

Jellico is a great captain, and that's it. Riker disobeyed multiple orders and question the rest. Now, questioning orders is fine. But the way Riker did it was completely wrong. He was annoyed at every order and questioned it with others. The second in commands job is to relay the captains orders. And he didn't just question, he argued and got angry. He was disrespectful, disobedient and arrogant. Regardless of what people like to pretend, Starfleet is the military. They have ranks, uniforms, a strict chain of command. Nothing in any of the series, at any point in time, do they even remotely suggest that Starfleet is anything other than a military organization.

StonyD

Agreed. But, in their defense they make a mean maple syrup.

supwizy

Simone is right that sometimes riker gets dumbed down to be the audience, its why he always has to be there when someone needs to ask georgie/data to explain something.

StonyD

Hey George! Throwing the comm badge worked because it was something they brought with them into the holodeck. The sims move in response to your body movement, floor, etc. But if you went into the Holodeck to play a game of baseball, and you brought your own ball, it would hit the wall too. Even if you told the program to recognize it as a baseball being used in the game, there is no way for the physical room to compensate for a real-world object being thrown a great distance without it colliding with one of the walls. The clothes and objects brought into the holodeck are "part of the person" and are simulated around. And also, it's fiction. ; )

gfixler

In the Star Trek world, the thing on Cardassian foreheads are referred to as spoons, not labia. I will say no more.

R. Chang

I really don't like the writing for Riker in the second part of Chain of Command. He acts like a shitty teenager. And I'll admit, when I was a shitty teenager, I loved watching him get the upper hand on Jellico. But as an adult, it's pretty cringe. I feel like the writers thought that the scene between the two of them somehow shows that Riker was right, but if anything it shows that Jellico was right to relieve him of duty and that he's a good captain. All Riker cares about in that scene is his own bruised ego. All Jellico cares about is completing his mission (and saving Picard!). And if he has to humble himself before Riker, he's willing to do that - because he's the better man. I see these episodes completely differently as an adult.

Jon

Being the military is still ONE of their primary functions. It's not out of line to view them as such or expect them to act like a military.

TalynOne

John, which orders did Riker disobey, specifically? As far as Starfleet not being military : "Starfleet is not a military organization. Its purpose is exploration." -- Captain Jean-Luc Picard ("Peak Performance", Season 2, Episode 21) "I'm a scientist, not a military man." -- Lieutenant Karl Jaeger, speaking about his specific role in Starfleet ("The Squire of Gothos", Season 1, Episode 17) "Starfleet is not a military organisation. It is a scientific research and diplomatic body." -- Gene Roddenberry, explicitly defining the organization in the original 1967 Star Trek Writer/Director's Guide (the official "show bible" given to TOS scriptwriters).

John Miller

I will always be team Jellico.

Jon

100% with George on that while Jellico wasn't being the best leader perhaps, Riker was still wrong. Also, with the communicator hitting the wall, my theory is that it was a real communicator that they brought in so it had no where to go when it was tossed. If it has been a created communicator then the holodeck could have made it appear to go further.

TalynOne

Yeah, and Kirk should be in jail 100x over all the times he disobeyed a badmiral and the prime directive, he should be in the brig along with Picard. Good thing this is Star Trek and not our dystopian present.

Blackbaldrik

I'm a huge sucker for jerks with a good reason, so I love Jellico. He was pretty much right the entire time and his actions were strict but reasonable. And to be honest, I'm pretty sure that was completely the intent. I but also don't fully blame the crew for their reactions to him or his extremely difficult demands. He kinda barreled in like a wrecking ball coated in heavy-grain sandpaper.

John Miller

I disagree with Simone about Jellico having preconceived ideas about Riker. When he first came on board, Jellico talked about how he looked forward to working with Riker. He had looked up his record and knew who he was. It was Riker who caused all the animosity. He didn't follow orders to change the duty shifts. Shifts set up for research and pleasure, not war. Nothing Jellico wanted was impossible, it was just going to be hard. Hell, when Jellico was forced to beg Riker to pilot the shuttle, and Riker talked about Jellico not bringing joy to the crew. What the actual F? Joy in going to war?

Joel

This episode, along with O'Brian's recounting of Cetlik 3 in "The Wounded" sealed my opinion of Cardassians

Gryff

Kirk should be in dozens of planetary jails, a starfleet jail, general space jail, and Time Jail. That man was a menace!

Gryff

I came here to say pretty much this. We are here doing military stuff, William. I need you to suck out that expectation of joy and replace it with duty. Its like Riker got sloppy in his sleazy season 5

John Miller

To answer a few of Georges questions about the holodeck. First, how they were able to end the simulation. They didn't. They never regained control of the actual holodeck, until Moriarty released control. They were able to trick him by doing the same thing he did. They didn't go to a different holodeck and create a simulation. They used the holodeck, inside the holodeck program that Moriarty was running. So that whole scene where the transported and then went to the shuttle bay, happened inside the original program. As to why Data was able to throw his com badge at the wall. It's because his com badge was real. If the simulation of Geordi had done the same thing, the com badge would have not hit the wall. The way the holodeck simulates the space around you requires that everything is a simulation. For example. If you created a phaser in the holodeck, it would simulate the way a phaser works and go in, until it hit something in the holodeck. Whereas, if you brought a real phaser into the holodeck, and shot it, it would hit the holodeck wall.

Gryff

No one ever talks about it, but in S6E12 (1:16:02 - 1:16:40 in the video) there is a VERY nice Long Take during Picard and Moriarty's conversation.

REDR58

"Spoonheads" is the slur. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Dan

As a veteran, I'll share my thoughts on Riker and these episodes: (My apologies in advance for the length) First, I don't take any issue with George sharing his opinions; I'd rather he be earnest and open than to say he has strong feelings ...that he won't share (that would be rude, haha). Second, of all the things George said, I resonate mostly with the criticism that Riker was, to some extent, written "out of character". He was very passive aggressive, possibly even catty... which are traits he doesn't normally exhibit. On the other hand, he also doesn't normally have issues with his own (direct) chain of command, either. In Measure of a Man, he openly protested being assigned the role of prosecutor, but he did his duty when the ultimatum was provided. But his options were also about other people, not his quality of life, the respect he deserved, nor his own career. I served in the US Navy on ballistic missile submarines. Each military job is different and each military branch is different, but I would say the Navy submarine life most closely resembles Starfleet life. Very few of us are "grunts" and there's no such thing as a "Navy of one" (in contrast with the Army's retired slogan); On boats, we have highly technical jobs that require coordination and cooperation in order for the mission to succeed. My LPO put it best: "The problem with living where you work is that, when you hate your job, you start to hate your life." Suicides are common, as are instances of people lashing out because they feel like they have nothing left to lose. So, when you're running a confined crew in a metal tube for long periods of time, it's a *bad* idea to get on everyone's bad side all at once. It has a way of coming back to you. Especially when it matters most, especially when an "oops" can happen. Wartime is *more* dangerous to an a-hole, not less. It's also important to note that civilians tend to have a skewed view of what "command" is like and how important "orders" are to us. Yes, all the military-approved Hollywood movies promote the idea that dire circumstances require utmost obedience, but (1) we haven't just "followed orders" since Nuremberg, (2) officers aren't gods to us, (3) officers are *often* wrong because they usually lack technical expertise, and (4) we have plenty of our own ways of fighting back against pointless tyranny. So, with that in mind, I'll pull out my Bluejacket manual that I was issued to me many years ago and quote its section on leadership: (i.e. Not my opinion, this is how we're trained) " Good leaders are concerned with more than simply getting the job done. *How* the job gets done is also important... What good is a leader who gets a job done but loses the respect of his or her crew in the process? What good is a leader whose methods result in dissention, disorganization, ineffectiveness, or poor morale? ... [g]ood leaders rely on much more than their authority to lead people. They recognize that subordinates are human beings like themselves, not mere tools that can be used for a job and put back in a box. Good leaders find ways to cause individuals to carry out an assignment *willingly* rather than out of fear of reprisal. ... [Among a list of principles of a good leader] *Keep your subordinates informed*: No one likes to be kept in the dark. And a person is usually better able to do a job if he or she understands why that job needs to be done and how it fits into the "big picture." Sometimes, for security or other reasons, there will be things you cannot share with your subordinates. But unless these conditions exist, you should make it a common practice to give your subordinates as much information as you can about what they are doing and why they are doing it. This will improve morale and will often help them do a better job. " Following orders *can* be important, but so can (politely) rejecting them. When a nuclear reactor operator is given a bad instruction, we don't just say, "Okay, I guess we'll just melt this baby down..." Our authority to operate the plant comes from a higher position than our own captain's, and we're allowed to refuse "unlawful orders" and orders that endanger the plant. If I'm in the center chair, I have "positional authority" to order disruptive people out of the control room (aka Maneuvering), even if that disruptive person is the captain himself. Granted, this only lasts for as long as I'm in the chair, and I can be relieved of my watch... but that still requires a formal turnover to another qualified operator. The more likely scenario, though, is that we offer an alternate solution, e.g. "Sir, recommend [x] order instead." Which is basically to say, in the Navy, we're required to consider the orders we receive *before* we act on them. Ours is a thinking job, and to NOT think would be the bigger danger on a boat that can sink 150 people at a time. Especially if the guy in charge isn't a subject matter expert on the equipment. (In real life, engineering folk are managed by more Barclays than Picards; we have to tell them what orders we're supposed to receive so that we can do our own jobs. Imagine Barclay in the center of the bridge, with everyone around him saying, "Sir, recommend 'red alert', followed by raising shields and firing back! Duh!") -------------------------------------------------------- Bringing this back to Trek life: 1. Jellico did mis-manage his subordinates War = war, but this... was not a war. They were having meetings and were being given 7-hour deadlines. They were being given time to act and, more importantly... to think. And deliberate. During that time, Jellico's leadership style was to disregard everyone's opinions and treat them all like automatons. When he took command of the ship, he could have gotten a lot more obedient cooperation if he'd forewarned them that they had difficult times ahead while reassuring them that he'd support them to his best ability. A short message of, "Hey, this is gonna suck, but I understand and need your cooperation anyway" goes a lot farther than, "You suck, and I DGAF if my decisions result in you wanting to hang yourself with a set of sound-powered phone cords while on-duty." 2. Jellico didn't keep anyone informed, even when they had the clearance and need-to-know Riker never refused any orders. He wasn't relieved for insubordination, he was relieved for sharing his opinion. Which, as a seasoned first officer, should have been a valuable resource to a commanding officer. No captain in the world knows everything; they're provided with trained staff so they can have effective advisors and receive alternate solutions. Jellico was fully entitled to keep Riker in the dark, but doing so was dangerous for multiple reasons. Even in the show, Riker's expertise as a pilot became crucial. Wouldn't an earlier collaboration on the piloting mission served both of their times better? Jellico had a winning strategy of ambushing the Cardassians with mines, yes. But what was truly served by keeping Riker in the dark about that strategy? Don't you think Riker would have been amenable to that plan, if he'd simply been told about it? It's not like Riker couldn't have kept the secret himself, and it's not like his animosity towards his own captain served a performative purpose (like a ruse for the Cardassians or something). It was a pointless argument that risked decreasing the ship's performance. -------------------------------------------------------- TL;DR I don't have any issue with George's opinion, particularly as a civilian. I'm just offering the perspective of someone who's been mis-managed in bad situations, knowing how bad they could have gotten. And I got tired of going to "don't kill yourself" training every month during my entire sea duty period. I can see how people might think Riker was being petty by making Jellico "ask" him to pilot the mission, especially when Riker himself should have had a personal motivation to see the mission succeed. An alternate view, though, is that Riker was confident in the mission's chance of success and merely used the opportunity to teach Jellico a lesson in leadership, with the only opportunity he had available to him. Perhaps Jellico will find himself in worse conditions in the future, and use this experience to lead (not order) people to a better outcome.

Dan

If we're treating this like the military... then I'll just say, as a veteran, that's not how the military works.

Jamie

I like his reactions but I can see why people wouldn't. He does seem really eager to tear apart the whole suspension of disbelief aspect of EVERYTHING the show does, even in the more tender/sharp moments. But hey, that's fine. It's fun to see people react, and he seems to be still enjoying the show (he seems okay with continuing on the DS9!)

Jamie

Jellico did question Riker tho, he asked Picard about him and was concerned that he'd given up promotions.

REDR58

An interesting bit of background from David Warner who played Gul Madred: Warner took over the role of Madred on three days notice and, though he had previously appeared in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier and Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, he knew nothing about the Cardassians from The Next Generation. As he recalled in a 2011 interview; "I took over on three days' notice. It was another makeup job. It was with Pat Stewart, who's an old colleague. It was great to be a part of that. I thought, "Oh, I've done two of the others, the old classic ones, and here I am in The Next Generation. I'll go for it." So I wasn't aware of it, of the Cardassians. I didn't know their history at all, except of course, that they weren't very nice." Due to the short time in which he had to prepare, Warner also did not have enough time to memorize his lines. As such, they were written down on cue cards. As he commented; "There was too much technobabble and dialogue that doesn't come naturally to me. So they wrote everything up for me. I don't mind people knowing this. Every line I said, I actually was reading it over Patrick's shoulder or they put it down there for me to do it." https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/David_Warner

REDR58

I really liked that subtle smile from Madred right at the end as Picard is led away from the room. And yes, Jellico was right.

Dan

As a veteran, I don't agree with this assessment. But I can see how a civilian would think that. I made a longer post below, but leadership is more than just giving orders. And as someone who served on submarines and had to go to lots of "don't kill yourself" training on a constant basis due to bad leadership... Jellico is a bad leader. It's not about whether he's "right", it's about whether he can inspire people to pursue the mission at hand by giving them some perspective on what their role is in completing that mission. If Riker's main motivation was to get Picard back, then surely Jellico could have gotten Riker on his side by simply telling him that he had a plan to rescue Picard, right? So why the secrecy? Was Riker incapable of maintaining operational security? Was he going to blab about the plan to the Cardassians? Both of their times would have been served better by them working together rather than apart, and Jellico was the one who set them on the path to working apart. It's not just bruised ego, it's demoralizing to be instructed by someone who won't even give you an opportunity to demonstrate your competence. The first strike against Riker, according to Jellico, was that he hadn't switched up the watch rotations on the schedule that he'd been given. But Riker had good reason to slow-roll the schedule change. He was aiming for a rested, effective watch team. I've split atoms on 2 hours of sleep between Monday and Wednesday, and I wrote a long ass letter to my captain about why it was a bad idea to operate a power plant like that. Sure, pressurized water reactors are inherently safe enough to sleep at the control panel... but there are myriad reasons why that shouldn't be the policy. (Fun fact: Navy sailors have a term for speed-running multiple shifts in a chaotic pattern that causes everyone to lose sleep. They're called "Vulcan death watches" (you can google it), and the term has been around for 60 years because engineering folk have always been nerds, and nerds have always been Trekkies. These watch schedules are typically used to let external, non-crew, day-walking auditors review the drill behaviors of everyone onboard. So, important people are flown to the boat, they do their thing, and they're done by 4pm. Meanwhile, the rest of us are 4 layers of jet-lag deep without even having flown anywhere.) Jellico had his own reasons for speed-running the schedule change, but he didn't tell Riker about how serious he was or how the rotation would support the upcoming mission. His secrecy led Riker to make a judgement call that Jellico disagreed with, and that was Jellico's fault for not providing any leadership for the situation.

Joel

Which personally, I CANNOT wait to see him watching DS9, those are going to be EPIC for him

Lessiarty

You are not wrong, who deem That my days have been a dream; Yet if hope has flown away In a night, or in a day, In a vision, or in none, Is it therefore the less gone? All that we see or seem Is but a dream within a dream. -- Edgar Allen Poe

Monica Alarcon

It's so funny that when Simone and George say "Cardassians" the closed captioning shows it as "Kardashians"

akaTheBAY-AY-RON

There's a meme I always think of when I see a Five Guys (Five Guys being a burger restaurant for context if they don't have them in Canada). The letters on the sign are in all caps like "FIVE GUYS" and someone took a picture of one of their signs where the F and the E weren't lit up so the only lit up letters were "IV GUYS." Underneath is Picard screaming "There are FOUR GUYS!"

James W.

On 610/611 - Jellico is almost cartoonishly assholish. Will was a bit off but everyone has off days especially under stress. At this point he has been serving under Picard for like 7 years. He passes up advancement because he is attached to Picard and his crewmates. Picard is like his best friend who he has seen go through so much, Riker will break protocol for Picard especially when faced with the likes of Jellico. Jellico is as an experienced officer and regardless of the situation he's been deployed to handle, would know better how to get everything he needs from the new crew without alienating them. He actively antagonizes pretty much everyone in the crew needlessly. If they were not following orders or something, I would get it but that's not the situation. Coming in and doing a bunch of superficial changes was just as petulant and stupid as Will's reaction but I will side with Will because I have been hanging out with him for 6 seasons at this point so his actions make sense in the broader context. Jellico doesn't have the trust of the viewer let alone the crew. On a meta note, the guy who plays Jellico, Ronny Cox, has made a career of being a massive dick in movies an TV. For a lot of us old heads who watched this as it came out, he trained use to hate him on site so it would have been more shocking if he was cool. All that said, Jellico wasn't wrong, but he was a stupid dickhead.

Monica Alarcon

There's a reason Moriarty was "forgotten". • When Star Trek: The Next Generation produced the Season 2 episode featuring the holographic Professor Moriarty, the writing staff initially assumed the Sherlock Holmes characters were in the public domain. The Arthur Conan Doyle estate argued that parts of the character and later stories were still protected, leading to negotiations and licensing discussions before Paramount could bring the character back. So he was finally brought back after the legal disputes were settled. He was intended to be a recurring villain originally.

gfixler

I don't know why anyone would be upset with your feelings on Riker in part 2. I see it. I get it. I agree.

REDR58

I find him more interesting as a non-villain, but just as an antagonist.

John Rose

Yep, what you said is correct, I was coming here to say that.

REDR58

I find your assessment of this as a naval veteran quite enlightening.

Monica Alarcon

There's an alternative ending where they placed Moriarty in a simulation in which he's the wisecracking buttler to a successful Broadway producer...

Dean Makin

Jellico is right about everything. He's set up to be the typical guest Captain who is gonna be a problem, but turns out to be the one who sorts everything out. His opinion of Riker is spot on because he's written as a brat. Great pair of episodes.

Captain Kermit

Jellico wasn't right. Riker is actually more correct when he dresses Jellico down. Jellico doesn't provide an atmosphere of trust, he is close minded, and he doesn't inspire people to want to work for him. He hated Riker and was trusted Data, from the very start. Data is never going to question his orders, and can work around the clock. Having a conversation with Riker, from the very beginning, would have solved a lot or problems. He's the Captain, he didn't have to, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't.

Andrew

It does seem like George nitpicks every aspect of TNG episodes more than anything they watch. I can't tell if he genuinely enjoys watching the episodes or if it's just work for him.

Captain Kermit

Yes, Jellico was lying when he first spoke to Riker. That's evidenced when he's talking to Picard just a few scenes later. He gravitated to Data immediately, I assume because Data isn't going to question his orders and can work all night. Riker is correct, Jellico doesn't provide an atmosphere of trust and he doesn't make people want to follow him. Yes, he has the power to just bark orders and change everything on the ship without any consultation with the current crew that's been there for 5 years, but that doesn't mean it's the correct course. Having an actually conversation with Riker, and the senior staff, would have solved a lot of these problems.

Dan

"Vulcan death watches": It's a real-life US Navy term that's been around forever (Seriously, you can google it) ------------------------------------------------- So, I mentioned in a comment below that I'm a former nuclear plant operator on ballistic missile submarines. Most of my commentary was about "leadership", specifically from the perspective of a person trained by the Navy, because it pertains to space-"ships" and a captain's duties to lead. But, fun fact: Navy sailors have a term for speed-running multiple shifts in a chaotic pattern that causes everyone to lose sleep. They're called "Vulcan death watches", and the term has been around for 60 years because engineering folk have always been nerds, and nerds have always been Trekkies. These watch schedules are typically used to let external, non-crew, day-walking auditors review the drill performance of everyone onboard. So, important people are flown to the boat, they do their thing, and they're done by 4pm. Meanwhile, the rest of us are 4 layers deep in jet lag without even having flown anywhere. I've been on schedules where only 2 hours of sleep were afforded between Monday and Wednesday. Pressurized water reactors are safe enough that you *could* (in theory) fall asleep on the job, but it's fundamentally not a good idea... and you *will* get in a LOT of trouble for it, even if it's the leadership's fault. Vulcan death watches have always been rumored to be "illegal", but no one takes that seriously and I'm sure we're still doing them to this day, just like they were when I served. In Jellico's opinion, Riker's first strike was not switching over the watch rotations fast enough. But Riker had good reason to slow-roll the schedule change. I wouldn't want to operate a warp core on 2 hours of sleep, either. Riker was exercising good judgement in the absence of leadership, meaning that Jellico hadn't explained why the rotations were necessary, why the deadline was necessary, or how the change would support the upcoming mission. Leadership is not just telling people what to do, it's about giving them good reason to be invested in, and support, the mission. You do that, in part, by explaining what a person's role is, in the big picture. Jellico failed to do that, so Riker went by the normal operating procedure that he was familiar with. Jellico got mad, but he really had himself to blame, if we're treating this like a real military. Everything that followed was a continuation of Jellico giving orders, rather than leading.

Dan

Thank you, I appreciate that! Hopefully it comes across as dispassionately non-judgmental as it was intended.

Captain Kermit

No, Riker is saying all the things that couldn't be said by him or the rest of the crew because Jellico was the Captain, but should have been said. Being Captain gives him the power to bark orders an be closed minded, it doesn't mean he should be. Walking on the ship and immediately making drastic changes without consulting the crew that was already there is plain stupid. Jellico doesn't provide any trust and people don't want to follow him. Data was the only one that didn't mind Jellico because Data isn't going to question orders and can work all night without tiring. I had a Lieutenant like this, when I was in the Army, and I'm so happy that I didn't have to go to war with him.

Dan

As a Navy submarine veteran, I've already commented at great length on this post, in multiple places, about the mismatch between a civilian's idea of war+leadership and a veteran's idea of war+leadership. I'll let you search for a couple keywords if you're interested in my lengthier commentary (see: Vulcan death watches and Bluejacket manuals) To address your specific argument, I'll just say that there's a reason why the watch rotations weren't *already* geared for war: because that's actually ... not their primary mission. It's to seek out new life and explore (research and pleasure...) ... their mission statement is literally exposited at the beginning of every episode. Jellico's first failure, as a leader, was the refusal to address the crew and tell them that "war" was their NEW mission. He's telling them to change their watch rotations without an explanation, which leads to speculation, disbelief, and disorder. On a United States Ohio class submarine, "Battlestations: Missile" is a particular personnel and equipment configuration where people prepare for launching our inter-continental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) to end the world. I've been at BSM probably hundreds of times. Do you know how many times we ended the world? None. Putting me at my BSM condition doesn't tell me we're going to war, the captain (or someone) would have to actually tell us that. Jellico didn't tell anyone they were going to war, he just put them into a configuration where they were likely to think it was a drill (assuming they're heavily trained, meaning they expect a training exercise). If he wanted better cooperation and less complaining, the first thing he should have done is acted like a leader, rather than just giving orders. As far as Riker not following orders, well, I address that at length (see: Vulcan death watches). Also, not all uttered sentences are considered "orders"; we, as humans, take a variety of instructions. If Jellico wanted his instructions to be considered orders, he should have said so. if he wanted every uttered sentence to be *considered* orders, he should have put those in the "Captain's Standing Orders" (a specific set of instructions, intended to provide guidelines for anything not enumerated elsewhere). It's a captain's duty to review the off-going captain's standing orders, and to revise anything he disagrees with.

Cinebinge

hi Andrew, thanks for the feedback! to answer your question, i do genuinely enjoy the show. Noticing small things or nitpicking IS how i enjoy things :) it just means i am engaged. to me finding criticisms or noticing flaws is not diametrically opposed to enjoying something. if anything, i hold the show to a higher standard than other things we do because i've seen how good it can get, so the bar for consistency, quality and logic is higher for me when it comes to TNG, because i am aware of what theyre capable of when its really good.

Patrick - Excelsior (edited)

Comment edits

2026-10-14 22:00 I think waiting to do DS9 is a mistake. There are things in the rest of TNG that only make sense if you have the information presented in the first couple episodes of DS9. At a minimum watch the first 2 episodes of DS9, then finish TNG.
2026-10-14 17:26 I think waiting to do DS9 is a mistake. There are things in the rest of TNG that only make sense if you have the information presented in the first couple episodes of DS9. At a minimum watch the first 2 episodes of DS9, then finish TNG. As for this episode. Riker was doing his duties as assigned. It is his job to presnt alternatives to the Captain and point out when he thinks the Captain is making a mistake or violating orders. As long as he does it "with all due respect". This he did. Jellico was within his rights as Captain to do what he did but he a a shit Captain. When temporarily replacing a Captain during a critical mission, like one that could result in a war leading to the deaths of millions' you do not re create the ship procedures minutes before going into that mission. If he was to be given permanent assignemnt as Captian of Enterprise, then wait until the time is right to take the ship on a shackdown cruise, change the procedures and yes even push the crew to the brink to see what they can handle, but you DO NOT do it 5 days before a mission that could potentially lead to war. This is not a time you want a shaken, confused and exhausted crew. Jellico was the one acting petulant, not Riker. I don't always agree with Riker but in this case, he was. Also, loyalty to ones fellow officers is something the military values. Riker showed loyalty but at all times obeyed the orders be was given. Question, at what point did Riker make Jellico plead for doing anything. It was Jellico that said he would not order Riker to do it, When Jellico asked him to do it (which is proper protocal) Riker immediatly said Yes. He put no conditions or expectations on Jellico. Riker's later snarky "Your Welcom" was in respose to Jellico not giving him the curtesy of a thank you for volunteering for a deadly mission. While a thank you is not necessary, it is usually customery in this situation. This is my observations as a US Navy submarine veteran.

I think waiting to do DS9 is a mistake. There are things in the rest of TNG that only make sense if you have the information presented in the first couple episodes of DS9. At a minimum watch the first 2 episodes of DS9, then finish TNG. As for this episode. Riker was doing his duties as assigned. It is his job to presnt alternatives to the Captain and point out when he thinks the Captain is making a mistake or violating orders. As long as he does it "with all due respect". This he did. Jellico was within his rights as Captain to do what he did but he a a shit Captain. When temporarily replacing a Captain during a critical mission, like one that could result in a war leading to the deaths of millions' you do not re create the ship procedures minutes before going into that mission. If he was to be given permanent assignemnt as Captian of Enterprise, then wait until the time is right to take the ship on a shackdown cruise, change the procedures and yes even push the crew to the brink to see what they can handle, but you DO NOT do it 5 days before a mission that could potentially lead to war. This is not a time you want a shaken, confused and exhausted crew. Jellico was the one acting petulant, not Riker. I don't always agree with Riker but in this case, he was. Also, loyalty to ones fellow officers is something the military values. Riker showed loyalty but at all times obeyed the orders be was given. Question, at what point did Riker make Jellico plead for doing anything. It was Jellico that said he would not order Riker to do it, When Jellico asked him to do it (which is proper protocal) Riker immediatly said Yes. He put no conditions or expectations on Jellico. Riker's later snarky "Your Welcom" was in respose to Jellico not giving him the curtesy of a thank you for volunteering for a deadly mission. While a thank you is not necessary, it is usually customery in this situation. This is my observations as a US Navy submarine veteran.

Dan

1:03:46 (no-sync): "a glitch in the matrix (diodes)"!

Patrick - Excelsior

Why so, I served in the military for many years, I've seen XO's say much worse to Captians. As long as you say it "with all due respect". Which Riker did. It's his duty to offer alternatives to the Captain and point out when he thinks the Captain is making a mistake.

Dan

This is really interesting to know. But I now wish I didn't, because my OCD ass is gonna be noticing that from now on, haha. Just like when someone pointed it out on Firefly, the episode "Shindig", where an older gentleman comes to Kaylee's rescue. I have to avert my eyes and pretend I don't know...

REDR58

I think it’s fair to say that different people have had very different experiences in such a large organization as a branch of the military. When my father served in the US Air Force in the early 1960s, stationed in Texas he told me he had a much more relaxed time of things compared to his brothers who were both in the Army, one who was deployed to Thailand and the other to Vietnam where he saw combat.

REDR58

Dan, speaking of ending the world via sub-launched ICBMs, have you ever heard of the “letters of last resort” issued to Royal Navy sub captains? “the Prime Minister pens four identical letters in their own hand writing outlining instructions on what to do if a nuclear exchange has occurred and the British government, including the Prime Minister and a designated second person, has been killed or incapacitated. Under the worst of circumstances, the Letter of Last Resort would stand as the last act of Her Majesty’s Government. . . . . . There are a handful of known instructions the Prime Minister can choose from when penning their Letters of Last Resort, and a combination of them can also be stated. These commands include retaliate, don’t retaliate, use your own judgement, put yourself under the command of the US Navy if it still exists, or go to the same in Australia. Clearly the secrecy surrounding the letters is key as without knowledge of what the fail-safe second-strike commands are, the nuclear deterrent remains credible. https://www.twz.com/7300/letters-of-last-resort-are-post-apocalyptic-orders-for-uk-vanguard-sub-crews

David N

The only thing that Jellico did wrong was changing things on board too fast for the crew to adjust without providing proper guidance and explanation as to why. He was brought on board because of his expertise with the Cardassians which require a very specific approach to not appear weak. Jellico knew what needed to be done if war were to break out but that would mean a complete repurposing of the Enterprise and its crew. This would of course lead to problems but all Jellico cared about was that without these changes, they would not survive a real war. This lead to a percived lack of humanity from the captian and resentment from the senior staff. I assume that is why Will is so petty towards him but it does come off as unprofessional. If Jellico had taken a small amount of time to explain the reasoning behind his orders the crew would have had much less antipathy towards him.

Guts

1:32:29 - I think George might have missed (or talked over) the part where Picard said that he inadvertently gave Moriarty his command codes in that one scene. That's why Moriarty was able to take over the real Enterprise.

DonkyDave

I've been a Patreon supporter for years, the second episode was literally the first time that Simone remembered something and George couldn't

Guts

Simone has more of an emotional response and George is more analytical in nature at least in their first knee-jerk reaction. George gets Simone to talk about and explore some of the things she might have otherwise overlooked, and vice-versa. It's perfect. I feel like 10 years I ago I basically was George to some extent but in the last 10 years or so my emotional walls have come down a bit and I like it, at least privately, although being emotional on camera would be a different animal of course. Although sometimes they talk over an important bit of context and then George might point out a flaw that isn't one due to that. But it is hard to find the right moments to talk without missing anything, I get that. 😅 I feel like there are 3 main tendencies among reactors: The primarily emotional ones, the immersed thinker and the director type (who always think from the perspective of the makers of the show or the actors). We mostly get 1 and 2 here, which I like, because 3 makes it hard for me to stay immersed as they always remind us that we are watching a show.

John M.

I bring this up at Target Audience occasionally: Riker is a dick throughout TNG, beginning to end, but every time it happens (there are dozens of instances) people say, "That didn't seem like Riker." It's fascinating.

Guts

Ronny Cox is amazing. His acting makes Jellico feel real. All around great acting in the two-parter.

Guts

I don't think many would be on Riker's side here. George is absolutely right. Riker is unprofessional in some of his scenes but I can understand him criticizing Jellico for being willing to sacrifice Picard like that. Riker often has to take on the adversarial role like he did in Measure of a Man. But in today's episode the script did him dirty. But I can easily ignore it because I love seeing Ronny Cox act as Jellico.

Guts

Sounds more like you didn't like the writing of the episode. Can't blame Starfleet for having the right, the most efficient man for the job. Or to quote Picard: "Brinkmanship is a dangerous game." Riker's scenes showed him as unprofessional and petty. He yelled at his captain in front of the crew and made snarky remarks. Riker doesn't always have the most consistent writing I suppose.

p0sthum4n

George, have you never read 1984? Trying to get him to say there are 5 lights is basically straight out of 1984 wherein they tell prisoners of the state that 2+2=5.

Carlisle Richards

There are some Trekkies who go to bat for Jelico.

PIG

FUCK! goes down as a big part of my experience on this rewatch.

REDR58

I like to think of the holodeck as an environment where each person is "equipped" with his or her own invisible VR gear/helmet, or that somehow the room is able to give each person his or her own point of view. So if there are several people in a single holodeck-generated room, as soon as one person "leaves" that room and steps through a doorway into another holodeck-generated room, then he or she "vanishes" from sight of the others. Or if "outdoors", that person moves far enough away out of the bounds of the physical holodeck, that person appears to get smaller as he or she moves farther into the distance. Exactly how the holodeck could generate multiple points of view, one for each person in the same or neighboring environment as they step some distance away from each other, I can't imagine... This would probably be simpler if each person was inside his or her own smaller holodeck room (or pod, or something!). Sort of like a LAN party where everyone has an isolated view of the same place.

Thall

I love the mid episode discussion! Can't wait for DS9, I think the themes will give you lots to talk about and I can't wait to hear your takes!

StonyD

I always thought that was either a nice touch or pure synchronicity at work

p0sthum4n

George vocalizes out loud pretty much single issue he has suspending his disbelief throughout shows or movies instead of giving a chance for things to play out and see how it unfolds ultimately. It's just who he is. I get why some people might find it grating. Sometimes I roll my eyes at something he says but it's just part of how he consumes media.

REDR58

Ship in a bottle Pulaski was in Season 2. I would have liked it if Moriarty had at least mentioned her by name, instead of the oblique reference to her, but no such luck. As far as I can recall, that is the last reference to Pulaski in TNG. When Geordi was demonstrating on the screen in engineering about how the planets will collide, the graphics reminded me of the game Osmos: www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGuieN5-6dI English actor Stephanie Beacham (the Countess Bartholomew) should be familiar to fans of seaQuest DSV where she played the medical officer Dr. Westphalen aboard the seaQuest submarine commanded by Captain Bridger played by Roy Scheider (Police Chief Brody) from Jaws. The little device sitting on someone’s table is my Mac mini M4 that I’m watching this with right now, smaller than Barclay’s “enhancement module.”

p0sthum4n

George, the original command given to the Computer when creating Moriarty was to "create an opponent capable of defeating Data" and that's effectively the whole basis of his knowing how to operate the ship and so on.

funky weapon

I'm surprised at how taken aback George is regarding Riker. Riker has always had moments of being a catty bitch on this show. basically whenever his status is directly challenged by anyone, the claws tend to come out pretty damn fast. anyone remember how he treated Ro Laren in the beginning? Jellico didn't have time to get to know the crew or get them to play nice and the first impression Riker gives is to disobey a direct order because Riker felt he knew better. I'm surprised Jellico didn't sit Riker's ass down immediately for that.

StonyD

Riker was a guy who beat the Borg when Picard was taken. He succeeded where 40 other starships didn't. And now instead of him taking over during a simple quadra-political skirmish, some random asshole gets brought in by Starfleet. The guy has no respect for the time and work Riker has done on the ship as XO and interim Captain. He treats him like another cog in the machine and doesn't take the time to be an actual leader. It takes more than rank, guts, and shouting to be a good Captain. Jellico will go far...on a Starbase or a lesser ship like the Excelsior or something. He's not wrong, he's just not cut out to be the Captain of the flagship. All he brings is textbook Starfleet and temper tantrums.

Thall

I always figured the Cardassians didn't try to torture actual information out of Picard. They didn't need the information, and it would've been worthless, as Jellico said the Federation would change aynthing Picard could possibly know about the defense. Plus, the Cardassians used the operation and the capture as leverage to gain a system diplomatically, instead of fighting, so the mission being commenced, then Picard being captured is all they ever needed from him. Picard clocked the situation though. Torturer had a shitty childhood, has been tortured and been powerless for many years presumably. And as some people do... Pay the misery forward. Make Picard suffer, like he himself suffered. That's why Picard said "I will never see you as anything but a 6 year old boy, powerless to defend himself."

TalynOne

Guts, I liked the writing. It showed Jellico to be petty and ego driven. Oh no, Jellico can't handle a raised voice, poor baby with his widdle little fees fees caused him to fire anyone who dared be anything but a drone following orders without discussion, awww... Guess it went to bite Jellico in the ass when he actually needed Riker. But even then he acted like a petulant child storming out of Riker's room when Riker simply said "you welcome". Riker didn't demand anything from Jellico in return, just said if you want something ask me in calm voice. Jellico couldn't help himself by barging into Riker's quarters acting like a jackass saying how much he hates Riker before even asking for help, dude is insane.

Dan

REDR58, it's been many, many years since I was in, but it wouldn't surprise me if I came across this information before. It is interesting to consider, since their country's footprint is so much smaller than ours in the US. It's also interesting to note that nuclear policies normally focus on the key conditions that would result in a retaliatory nuclear strike, and those policies are normally publicized between nations in order to avoid surprise conflicts of the nuclear variety. Russia is an enemy, for example, but they clearly state the conditions under which they're likely to initiate a nuclear strike (even if it's in response to a conventional attack, e.g. a large scale invasion). We've had a lot of close calls in the past, and everyone kind of figured it was best to avoid confusion, even when war tactics typically demand deception (Sun Tzu).

Brandon

I don't think it's a great idea to start DS9 and then immediately postpone it for several months before TNG is done. I don't think they will be lost or confused at all if they wait to start DS9.

Brandon

I have a worn out t-shirt that is just Picard's anguished face with the text "There are four lights!" beneath it. I haven't been able to find another one, but I might get that instead.

Paul Peavler

Riker was acting very unlike Riker because of Jellico, that’s the point. He never would have acted like that with Picard because he respects Picard, and that’s because Picard has earned everyone’s respect. Nobody earned Jellico’s respect because he never even tried, Riker was just the most vocal, which is in line with his character relative to the others. When Beverly and Geordi were complaining about him and giving him sass in the conference lounge, of course Riker is going to be more animated than that. He didn’t start that way, you can track his behavior back to early in the first episode when he tried communicating with Jellico and Jellico basically just kept telling him he sucked and to get bent. It was kinda the whole point of the story - you can be right, but if everyone hates you, you can be right all alone. Jellico had to temper himself and eat his pride to get Riker to do a job that Riker would have volunteered for in a second before Picard even asked. Also… “grim and dark Trek, I like it…” - Let me tell you the good news about Star Trek Deep Space Nine

Patrick - Excelsior

Ep 612 When they first created the Moriatry program they stipulated that the "villain" be smart enough to out think Data. Which means he is smarter than Data and the computer will supply him with all the knowledge he needs to be smarter than Data. Throwing the book through the arch disintegrated because that arch was part of the program within the holodeck. Moriaty had to have it that way or the Captain would a realised that the arch was fake.

PoindexterG

Something I don't see people talk about. In the Holmes stories it was common for the villain to do something that seems impossible or supernatural, until Holmes later reveals it to be a fraud. And that's exactly what Moriarty did here, with Data (the Holmes analog) deducing what was happening. It's interesting that despite gaining consciousness and becoming more that just a character, Moriarty still fell back onto what he knew.

Paul Peavler

I’m so happy to read your comment because the discourse on Jellico is always so exhausting. I’m not military (though many of my family are, though mostly Air Force), but after 15 years in corporate engineering, I find that there’s really two kinds of people: people that have worked for a Jellico and hated it, and people that are a Jellico (current, former, or aspiring). And the only reason we have a continued debate about whether or not the Jellicos of the world are good leaders is because they tend to be ambitious on average (based on the need to rule rather than lead) and they tend to like and promote each other (since they don’t like disloyalty) so at least 2/3 of middle managers and execs in America are Jellico-adjacent. And when the consequences of following bad orders aren’t life-and-death and you can just go home at the end of the day, I think most people have just accepted it.

Kyle West

Picard knows how to give Moriarty the ability to exist outside of the Holodeck, there's just no way in hell he'd ever invite Q on board of his own free will.

PandaNonGrata

I think you're confusing independently inventing a technology with learning how an existing technology works. Those are two very different things. A Victorian-era person probably couldn't invent a modern TV from scratch without first understanding the scientific principles behind it, but that doesn't mean they'd need to learn the entire history of every discovery that led to its invention. If you brought them into the future, showed them a working TV, and gave them access to explanations, demonstrations, and technical manuals, they could learn directly from the finished technology without having to rediscover everything themselves. They might need to learn the underlying science to understand how it works in depth, but they wouldn't need to learn every intermediate technology or historical step that came before it. The path humanity took to discover something isn't necessarily the path an individual has to take to learn it. You may need foundational knowledge to understand advanced technology, but that's not the same as needing to learn the entire history of how humanity developed it. With Moriarty he had access to the Enterprise's computer, which could provide him with information and explanations about technology that was centuries beyond his original era. He wouldn't need to work through centuries of technological development in chronological order. He would need to acquire the knowledge relevant to understanding the technology in front of him, and with a futuristic computer providing that knowledge, he could potentially learn far faster than someone from his era normally could.

Herbie

Need a tv show poll to recommend Barry

Gizmo_Mogwai_

Did Simone stop doing her weird line intros at the beginning of each reaction? Always looked forward to those. 😕😕😕

dys

I grew up with TNG but never watched DS9 until years later, it was fine.

dys

I'm hopefully in the majority when I say that I watch because I appreciate George's reactions at least as much as Simone's. As a nerdy guy working in tech myself who loves Star Trek but is generally more into hard scifi, it seems like George has a somewhat similar background and attitude to mine in how he consumes media. I far prefer reactions from someone like him, or Simone, who have intelligent, educated opinions on the media they're watching.

Brandon

There's 2-3 cameos with DS9 characters, but I don't consider them crossovers like they did with Arrow/Flash/Legends of Tomorrow. With that, you had to watch episodes from each series in proper order to see the full story. To someone who hasn't seen DS9, Bashir for example would just appear to be some one-off Starfleet character that's only in a single episode and you never see him again. You don't need to know any of his backstory or be caught up on DS9 to know what's going on.

Dan

Thank you very much, Paul. Yes, those are great points, too! I've been in the corporate world for 20 years now and I definitely know what you're talking about. There are many downsides to purely profit-seeking organizations, and one of them is the fact that training is always an easy piece of overhead to cut in pursuit of financial gains. Which reminds me that the military has two other benefits over the corporate world: 1. Everyone is expected to be both a leader and a follower, so we are specifically required to attend "leadership" classes, which the military deems critical and doesn't cut (ah, the benefits of socialized education and a bottomless budget) 2. Everyone is motivated to train their juniors on the job, if for no other reason than to be able to sleep soundly while the other guy is in charge of the same life-sustaining equipment. In the civilian world, people can be hired and fired on a whim, so there is little accountability for any single person to learn or to teach any other specific person, beyond the bare minimum. The Navy's Bluejacket manual, in contrast, makes it clear that "most good leaders are also good followers", because no matter how high you go up the chain of command, someone always has a boss (eventually it's the president, who is a civilian). Unfortunately, military leaders don't actually get tested on their ability to adhere to their training IRL, and my end-of-course critique for my E5-level leadership class was, "This class was great! It taught me everything my command is doing wrong!" rofl. But at least I got the training, which most civilians don't. Which is a shame, when college gen-ed classes are supposed to make people more "well rounded". A continual and ongoing missed opportunity.

dys

I appreciate Dan's perspective on this a lot, I'm not a vet but my brother is in the US navy. The way I can relate to this is I'm a lead at a software company, which is in some ways maybe comparable to an XO? Not in terms of any of the actual heroism and putting your life on the line involved in military service, but in terms of having a team of people who look to me for guidance but there is someone above me who has the final say in decisions affecting them. If I had a new director above me who was asking for too much too fast without earning the trust of my team the way Jellicoe was, it would be my job to stand up to that person and push back against unreasonable asks, but I would not be doing my job if I just told my team I'm on their side, that director was wrong and they should ignore it. I'm supposed to buffer things from them, shield them from priorities changing too quickly or without good reason, but I'm not there to always take their side and whine to those above me. So Jellicoe is being unreasonable to expect the crew to automatically adapt to his way of doing things no questions asked, but Riker is wrong to refuse to find a middle ground.

p0sthum4n

@dys George is definitely more tolerable than 90% of reactors out there.

dys

Honestly the fact that I came around on Jellicoe as an adult just makes me like these episodes more, even if the writers intended us to think he was an unreasonable meany they still wrote him so well (and the actor performs him so well) that what we end up with is a really nuanced relationship between him and the Enterprise crew. Jellicoe still is unreasonable in some ways, Riker is unreasonable in others, that just makes them coming to begrudgingly respect each other in the end more satisfying than if Jellicoe was a pointlessly unreasonable hardass even if that's what the writers intended. This two-parter is where we really meet the Cardassians properly, there have been some inconsistencies with how they were portrayed previously but this is the version of them we're going to see going forward, so I'm curious if George still finds them annoying... For me at this point they might not be an existential threat to the Federation the way the Borg are, but they're a very interesting antagonist and foil to the Federation. They're interesting because of the way they challenge the Federation's principles, the Federation is supposed to be this peaceful utopian union but they *have* to be militarized because there are other powers like the Cardassians around who test what a Federation that prides itself on being morally just is willing to do when pushed to the brink. As antagonists we've had the Klingons who were supposed to be a less culturally and technologically advanced civilization, but could challenge the Federation just because they were better at fighting. We had the Romulans with their own plans but they weren't into fighting grand fleet battles. The Cardassians are the first who are close to the Federation's level of technology and military strength but have completely different ideas about state power and civil liberties. Part 2 really is just the 1984 scene in the Ministry of Truth with Winston being tortured by O'Brien... but all our stories are mostly retellings of older stories, and this one tells it so well. The Ferengi on the other hand remain annoying thus far, and maybe that will change and maybe it won't, unfortunately George just has to keep suffering through Ferengi episodes to find out.

Al

The Riker character was immature and unprofessional in this episode. It was clear from the moment the Admiral arrived and replaced Picard that something unusual was up. He should have surmised these were unusual circumstances and Star Fleet had knowledge he didn't. As far as his interactions with Jellico , he can have his private feelings but to get involved in a shouting contest with a commanding officer was beyond the pale. Especially given how dire the circumstances were. This is the time for real officers to step up and do what is best for the team, not nurse grudges. The decision not to admit Picard was on a military mission is standard operating procedure in these situations (which is why they are so dangerous). Jellico could do no such thing - Star Fleet would have denied it anyway. This was the time for Riker to act like a grown professional, not a pouty adolescent.

Al

It was Riker who first raised his voice to Jellico, his commanding officer.

Al

Wasn't Admiral Hyman G. Rickover, the head of the Navy nuclear program, actually much worse than Jellico was portrayed?

gfixler

When George asked "But why is it called Ship in a Bottle?" I said "Oh, crap. George's hyper-analytical, story/plot/trope-obsessed mind is too powerful for our early 90s TV story tech." This is not going to be the awesome reveal for him that it was for me. Thankfully, the reveal came one minute later, and at least he got to enjoy being right about it. I never once, while watching an episode of any show, remembered what the name of the episode was while watching it, which is funny, because I would always make sure I was back from the commercial break (like if I ran to the bathroom or kitchen after the theme song), just so I could read the very important episode title, which I'd then immediately forget for the rest of the episode, and it would provide no clues to me whatsoever. 😆

Brandon

I think she only does the intros with movies and not TV.

parker469a

George you are wrong. Jellico needlessly antagonized everyone and wasted time doing a bunch of stuff that never paid off and would have never made any real difference even if they had been in a battle. Was Riker quick to temper, yes, was it justified from Jellico's attitude, yes. What's the point of even having a second in command if they aren't allowed to think, talk, or suggest anything? At a certain point Riker shouldn't even bother being there if he isn't allowed any input.

gfixler

Nice work! I was just posting about DSV when I decided to see if anyone beat me to it. I loved that show, and the captain, and especially Darwin, and the tech I would only later learn was behind him. Also, RIP to Jonathan Brandis. That one made me really sad. Like Wesley, he was my window into that show as a young boy.

Dan

Haha, yeah, in some respects. He left a lasting impression on Jimmy Carter, though, before he became president. Carter spoke fondly of him. During his first two-hour interview to join Rickover's submarine nuclear program, Rickover asked him if he'd done his best during training. When Carter thoughtfully replied that he hadn't "always" done his best, Rickover asked, "Why not?" and turned his back on him. That was the end of the interview, and Carter was kicked out. He was forced to re-study and wait his turn to go back for a second interview. Carter said it was a powerful lesson in commitment and work ethic, to devote himself strongly enough to have the self confidence to say, "Yes, I earned this job." He titled his autobiography, "Why Not the Best?" as a result. Rickover respected intelligence, wisdom, and work ethic. On the other hand, he detested inept and unserious people, and he let them know it. There was a method to his madness, but he also spent much of his career trying to overcome incompetence and willful ignorance from mediocre minds (e.g. Congress). His biggest battles weren't with people under his command, it was with people who refused to get out of his way for objectively poor reasons. Rickover also knew his limitations. He knew he wasn't a leader in the classical sense, and didn't try to be one. He served on two submarines early in his career, but he never tried to command one himself. Would he be worse than Jellico? Very likely. But he also wouldn't have tried to be a ship's captain in the first place, because there were too many skills he knew he lacked (e.g. strategy and warfighting knowledge). Would Geordi have liked him? Probably not. But he would have liked Geordi.

gfixler

Picard mentions that they might be able to beam things off the transporter if they disable the "Heisenberg compensators," which I think came up in a previous episode, and were probably described here before (probably by me, but I'm getting old and forgetful). The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (in our real world) states that we cannot simultaneously know both the exact position and momentum of a subatomic particle. The compensators were for the nerds out there, basically black boxes in the transporters which, with no explanation in the show, somehow get around that issue. You need to get around it if you're going to know the nature of the thing you want to transport, and reconstruct it with those same properties elsewhere. Michael Okuda (designer of the "Okudagrams", the panels and labels on things all through every episode, and creator of the LCARS look) was once asked how the compensators worked, and joked "they work just fine, thank you."

Kansas City Shuffler

I was tempted to send them a shirt that says, "SSSS FUCK!" with the same font as Star Trek: TNG's title card in light blue with a black background. But unfortunately, I do not know where to send it, or what would be the right size.

Nabikon

glad I was only ever on a destroyer. never even heard of vulcan death watches.

Captkirc

George, as a kid I was definitely on Riker’s side but over the many years since I’m firmly on team Jellico especially the assignment he was given and the urgency of it didn’t give him the luxury of taking a more personably wait and see approach which he explicitly told Deanna in their first meeting. That said, I don’t think this was out of character for Riker because the thing that made his relationship go from contentious to fractured was when Jellico was unwilling to declare Picard was acting under orders. Riker is fiercely loyal to his captain and friend so an insubordinate response like he gave is IMO faithful to his character.

Alexander Brown

Moriarty was, aside from being extremely intelligent and perceptive, an amateur astronomer. It makes sense for him to instantly clock that the Enterprise was 'adrift in the heavens.' I love these episodes, great reactions!

gfixler

The holodeck is really complex. I have the Star Trek TNG Technical Manual, from way back in the day, and it's kind of fascinating how they imagined it works. People can correct me if I'm misremembering anything. The holoemitters tile the walls, and they're like tiny peepholes, which show the entire 180° hemisphere beyond their plane. As you move around, you see "through" them to whatever is along the line through that hole, and with the walls tiled in a ridiculous number of them, it creates a view that looks fully 3D. Everywhere you move, you're change your angle through all of them, and the resolution is tight enough that each eye even has its own view from its vantage point. That's enough to create things in the distance. The things in the foreground are given substance with really tightly controlled forcefields. When people walk away from each other, lensing forcefields make them appear further away, and even dampen sound. I feel like there was also something with transporter technology to create actual things, because how do the emitters on the far wall, behind your friend, put a table in between to you? Also, I believe you can eat on the holodeck, and it's just replicating food for you to actually consume. There are a lot of holes. The lensing forcefields could be my own imagination (I've thought about this a lot over decades, and could have invented some of it). How does it create things with beaming tech without the beam-in effect you would see, and have to wait for? There are all manner of overlapping issues with a bunch of people in the holodeck that don't feel like they could work, even with invented tech I can imagine, like needing to treadmill people who walk away, so they don't walk into the wall. Also, you can put things on tables in the holodeck. Throwing something at the engine should have seen it bouncing off, but maybe it's like video games, where you don't expect people will ever go behind that thing, so it's single-sided, and vanishes from behind. The computer doesn't expect you to throw something at the warp core, so there aren't forcefields there. It's a different LOD 😆 Now I gotta go read my 35-year old tech manual, and see if any of this is right, or if it's all false memories. I posted a picture of it on my bookshelf once, next to Hawking's book, and Michael Okuda replied, saying it was in very good company ❤️

gfixler

Wow, I guessed at 35 years ago. Turns out the Technical Manual was published in October, 1991, 35 years ago exactly.

Al

I think the issue is that Starfleet has a military structure. The Uniform Code of Military Justice makes raising your voice to a superior officer a serious offense. Anyone who has been in the military can correct me. Although the Enterprise isn't a warship most of the time, it can become one, as it did in this episode. If a subordinate feels a commander is in the wrong, the proper response is not to get in his face and start yelling. Edit: However, I do remember that Bones would get huffy with Captain Kirk. Was is it realistic that a captain would put up with? I don't know. Maybe if they had a relationship.

Al

But shouldn't Riker have realized that Picard was sent on a secret mission designed to give Starfleet plausible deniability? The whole point was they didn't want to admit to an offense against the Cardassians. And think of the trouble Jellico would be in if he went against the narrative Starfleet was officially putting out. He isn't in a position to undercuts his government's official stance.

StonyD

And?

fforw

Totally not on board with George's take on Riker. Riker is not Picard, he is not controlled, not somber. He is emotional, the way he does his job is emotional. He works in relationships. Riker is the perfect counterpart to the somewhat cold Picard. He makes the ship run and ensures that the Captain's orders are followed. Jellico is a very different captain. He decides not to trust and rely on Riker from the get-go without having any real reason except for his action satisfies itself bravado. It is not a bad style for running conflicts, but really bad for running a ship. Does he even try to adapt? He just hides behind his "no time!" nonsense when all they do is sit and talk to the Cardassians.

Ian Tellam

So George likes Ron D. Moore's grimmer, darker take on Trek, eh...? (cough, BSG, cough)

Captkirc

Well the episode establishes that Riker’s only learns about this mission seconds before when told about it by the Cardassian so he didn’t have much time to process the implications and then he’s hit with the fact that Picard will be executed if the federation does not claim he was there on orders. I think such an extreme scenario makes Riker’s response understandable

DaveisCool

Just a small correction for George Starfleet is not a military organization. I agree with your critisisms of the episode but just thought to point this out.

michael denny

Riker was a terrible first officer both episodes his job is to support the captain and manage the officers below him. He deserves a demotion not just a slap on the wrist. Also riker may be the best pilot but he's not the only pilot, the captain did him a huge favor. Not one mention of Diana finally being able to wear real clothes. There are four lights is the i ly thing I can say in a Picard voice convincingly.

Robert Carter

Great comment and I loved the insight from someone who has been in a military role and can give a perspective on this from that world. It came down to this for me personally: Riker prioritises the people and the individual, Jellico prioritises the Federation. Jellico to me is thinking several steps ahead of what MIGHT be and Riker is focused on the now. Neither is wrong but neither of them is willing to listen to the other’s opinion. I actually think they sum each other up pretty accurately when they “drop the ranks”.

Robert Carter

Absolutely. If they both reacted identically then it would be boring. I feel so sad that George feels he has to caveat any negative opinion of something/someone just in case someone doesn’t agree and gets upset. He’s never nasty or hateful about something, just honest.

Robert Carter

I think what you mean is, “George, I think you are wrong”. His own opinion on something subjective can’t just be flat out wrong

Joe Sener

I feel like Chain of Command is a great example of the writers being split on Riker. He's described early in the show as a maverick and a bit of a loose cannon, but pretty much after season one the writing steers into the good working relationship he has with Picard, and the chemistry between Frakes and Stewart. Whenever the writing separates the two of them, its as if the writers fall back on "well, he's a loose cannon. He should act impulsively and lead with emotions" and it wipes out huge swathes of his character development for a short time.

Angela D. Mitchell

George, your CAT is being SO DARN CUTE in the beginning of the video! Rolling all around, stretching, showing off. The cuteness! It burns! Meanwhile, George, I kind of agree with you. I felt like Riker was still himself here for the most part, but I DID think he was shockingly insubordinate and unprofessional with Jellico -- at levels that any military officer would have a legitimate problem with. There was one interaction that stuck out to me between Riker and Jellico where he should have ended his response with "Sir," and he didn't. And it bothered me so much. I just don't believe Riker would do that. I feel like Riker would have added "Sir" in a pointed way, perhaps. But not that he would have omitted "Sir" entirely. Riker is a professional. He is truly a superb first officer. But here, as Simone pointed out, instead he proved Jellico right. So I do kind of agree. BUT -- what an incredible episode. And I was so glad Picard openly noted that torture doesn't work precisely for the reasons we saw and heard here -- at a certain point, any person will break. No one is unbreakable and immune to pain and suffering. At a certain point, a person will break, and say whatever they think the other person wants to hear. Which is why torture is not just grotesque for human rights reasons -- it's inefficient. It doesn't work. I already raved about David Warner in part 1, but just to add that he was so good here. Wonderful acting and a superb script. And oh my God, Patrick Stewart. An incredibly harrowing performance. Last but not least, I was glad that Jellico simply left courteously. I kept expecting him to die, but instead he simply served, and left. I loved the final therapy session with Deanna. I wish we saw more of those. (And also, poor Jean-Luc. That poor guy. So much suffering and torture!)

Angela D. Mitchell

Ronny Cox is so prolific, and such a good character actor. He was perfect casting here.

Angela D. Mitchell

George, I enjoy that you're critical. I also appreciate that you will engage with us about your critiques at times -- I know that's not always easy. I appreciate that you put yourself out there, so keep on doin ' what you're doin'.

James W.

100%, I love him in this, even if I think his character is a bit of a dick. He was also competent and assertive which was nice to see.

James W.

True! He was refreshingly sweet in Beverly Hills Cop. I wouldn't have minded seeing him in more roles like that.

Angela D. Mitchell

PS -- I love that "Ship in a Bottle" ends with Moriarty basically "on a ship in a bottle." It's very clever. In terms of how he effortlessly knew the ship's tech -- he had been self-aware and trapped in the Holodeck for 4 years, so I'm wondering if he was able to witness and understand the ship and crew's functions through those years. This would certainly make his swift grasp of the tech believable, given his level of genius.

ancientmoros

Please tell me George is already working on a supercut of all of Simone's attempts at Space! and all of the associated Fuck!, Nailed It!, and other comments!

Al

Good point. Riker had just found out.

Matthew Maxon

Richard Reihle passed away. He played Batai in the ep where Picard lived a life on the dying planet.

@Foodmancing

George, I think your criticism comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of what Starfleet actually is. As Picard explicitly states, “Starfleet is not a military organization. Its purpose is exploration.” Yes, it has ranks, a command structure, and military capabilities, but its primary purpose is scientific discovery, diplomacy, and exploration, not warfare. Riker isn’t simply being childish or unprofessional. He’s an experienced officer operating within a command philosophy that values collaboration, independent judgment, and mutual respect. Jellico arrives and immediately attempts to impose an entirely different leadership style without making much effort to understand the crew he’s inherited. That’s not to say Riker is entirely right. He absolutely allows his frustration to become personal, and Jellico is clearly a capable commander. But unquestioning obedience isn’t synonymous with professionalism, just as authoritarianism isn’t synonymous with effective leadership. That’s part of what makes the episode so compelling. It’s a clash between two legitimate but fundamentally different command philosophies. Reducing it to Riker being whiny and Jellico being the only professional in the room misses much of the nuance, not to mention one of the central ideals of Star Trek: that humanity’s future should aspire to something beyond the rigid military thinking of its past.

Joe Concepts

One main issue with Jellico's attitude here is that he himself says because of the situation, he doesn't have time to get to know everyone and let them warm up to him. So MAYBE in other situations he would have done that. He bonds with Geordi a little, for example. But even in that situation, his "I'm not interested in anyone else's opinion" attitude is such a huge contrast to Picard, even though maybe it's down to personal style. I think you could say he is a good commander but not a great leader.

Joe Concepts

I don't know why a lot of people think Picard just immediately returned to duty. Granted, in real life, you would probably keep the guy off duty for months after his ordeal. But who's to say it's not a week later or something? He's all cleaned up and his face doesn't look swollen and beaten.

Marcus Hicks

Same here, her intros, and George's reactions to them, definitely elevate the whole reaction.

Marcus Hicks

Interestingly, its the differences in Simone and George's consumption of the media that make their reactions so endlessly engaging.

Joe Concepts

I figured that Moriarty really was inside the computer analyzing things for the four years and learned everything he could and formed his plan.