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Radio War Nerd EP #233 — The Arab Spring & 2020 (Patreon)

Published:
2020-06-18 03:39:19
Imported:
2026-06
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Guest: "Cyrus", MENA researcher

Recorded: June 15, 2020

Are the nationwide protests across the US anything like the Arab Spring? We spoke to MENA researcher "Cyrus", who has spent much of the past two decades in the region researching the political changes from the US invasion of Iraq up through to today, to recount for us what he saw and learned during the Arab Spring, and what if any lessons there are for us today.

Total time: 2:38:34

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here 

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Comments

P. Shaver

Can't wait for this to be available on my podcast app. Will have to listen on Patreon

Ned Schafer

Looking forward to your thoughts on the India-China conflict.

Factory Troll

Fantastic episode. Should be made public, I think. Personally, I don’t share your cautious optimism about the current protest situation. Among many other things, I really do not like the identity politics in this. They are supposed to be against racism, so why are they constantly harping on about black and white, which is a completely facile and utterly stupid way of categorizing people? At least it supposedly has some practical utility to label someone with a nationality or ethnicity – like you can tell their language. But black and white? That is just… racist. I’d also say there is nothing radical about the way these protests are being organized, let alone the protest demands. It is the same old brand of “peaceful” protests (I put quotation marks around peaceful because I don’t think they are very peaceful in nature. “Unarmed protests” seem like a more fitting epithet), the same kind that failed last time and the time before that, and every time since they shot MLK. The same slogans, the same clenched fist. And then there is the support, the overwhelming, unhinged and delirious support, from the same liberal establishment which lost 2016, learnt nothing from it and decided to double down on status quo. So, why is it going to be different this time? The fact that corporate actors are trying to show their support for protesters by poking at the lowest hanging fruits they can find, does not comfort me in the least. I will readily admit being an outsider to all of this, so please tell me if I’m wrong, but the protests in the US seem to represent their time, rather than a change of times, or any change for the better.

Joshua Hart

Gold is used heavily in electronics and high tech components

a clash of purple

The protests are anti-racist, but they exist within the context of an extremely racist country. They talk about black and white people because those are the categories that Americans care about. No one in the United States has any consciousness of any other identity, including class, even though police crimes happen along class lines as much as race lines. It is what it is.

a clash of purple

Especially since they already did an episode on the Sino-Indian War and this seems to be based on the same territorial dispute.

Ned Schafer

I am a newer subscriber. I will look that one up.

Factory Troll

So, if I understand you correctly, an “anti-racist” protest in a purportedly “extremely racist” country must use racist rhetoric because that is the only thing these racists can understand? I think this sounds like some 4-dimentional meta-argument bullshit, which doesn’t make any sense, but people here clearly agree with you. That thing about no one having any other consciousness not only strikes me a as absolutely vile and jaw dropping, but also plain, dead wrong. Yes, people are conscious of other identities than “black” and “white”, even in the United States of America – that exceptional nation – you are not the only genius to think that far. What an attitude to run a popular protest movement with. And then; “It is what it is”. Again, I must be that guy who raise his hand to say something which I think is obvious, but people clearly think is stupid. Why does it have to be what it is? Aren’t you protesters, you know, vying for change and all that? You are supposed to dictate the terms of your own protest for god’s sake, and merely not referring to other people as either “black” or “white” doesn’t sound all that revolutionary to me. I went through google images of the civil rights protest (because I am neither old nor American) and the first reference to black-and-white talk is from a counter protest “keep our schools white”. From the civil rights movement there is none, as far as I can see. Hell, they called themselves the “civil rights” movement. I don’t think there is any meaningful strategic depth to the way these protesters act, talk and organize themselves. I think they are trying to mask their lack of discipline and direction behind jargon, punchlines and high-minded talk. I think they are playing the wrong game in the wrong way, and that they are going to lose.

Ian B

Really great moment re: jeffzkey composition

Edward P Slocomb

It is also widely used as jewelry. This is neither a "stupid" nor a "meaningless" use. There are a whole lot of otherwise intelligent people (OK, men) who don't understand that bodily adornment is an entirely practical and serious use for gold, or that the distinction between real and imitation gold is an important one in this use, or that the social function of jewelry runs a hell of a lot deeper than they seem to think it does, particularly in cultures other than their own (hint: go look up which countries consume the most gold for use in jewelry).

xnfec

I was trying to find it the other day but I couldn't. Which number is it?

Factory Troll

Episode 96. The Sino-India War of 1962, with Aditia Velivelli.

Patrick Fitzgerald

Thanks for shout out to Brendon Anderegg. I just checked out his LP June. It's fantastic.

xnfec

thanks

Simon

Re John's comments on not understanding money, Christine Desan wrote a great legal history of money and the Royal Bank of England called "Making Money". I think it's very useful for thinking about how taxes and money work.

CR

John Hartley

I strongly second that recommendation. Another good source of information on the topic of money and banking is Perry Mehrling's course on Coursera. After thinking about the connection between war and money, I think it is not too big a stretch to say that war is a big reason for money to exist.

Alexander Corden

It's like Gary's old article about how many nameless Yemeni Shia are equal to one Washington Post contributor, he should update that article for just the occasion.

lililililili

ngl something abt this cyrus fellow felt off, educated as he might be on the subject (not disputing that) his perspective felt... well i mean he works for NGOs so

lililililili

Agree! I would have to add that, ironically, the so-called "left" of our country is the least class conscious segment of our society, and these are the people mostly running/supporting these protests. In fact, to suggest that these issues should be viewed through a class lens instead of a racial lens or that they should be organized by workers instead of young professionals gets you branded a racist or a cryptofascist or strasserite (which is also ironic). You are also right that the slogans are hiding a lack of discipline, but they're also hiding the bourgeois forces mobilizing to privatize the police and further disband public employees' unions and the petty bourgeois forces trying to salvage their activism/media industry's diminishing returns. Unfortunately, this reality is the result of years of priming and stoking of racial tensions, there's a lot of money behind the organizations and platforms pushing this narrative and it seems that any critique of them, especially in this environment, can have serious consequences for one's reputation or even job. I think a lot of this more recent stuff is creating new reasons to fire people who may want to push a class-conscious point of view, especially in the workplace. There's a lot wrong with this that no one is criticizing because they're either afraid or they're projecting what they want to see onto the protests. I have friends that literally think this is the start of the revolution and got mad at me when I asked them if anyone there (besides the cops) had a gun. It's pure madness.

Factory Troll

Do you have any concrete examples about such attempts to privatize the police (or anything related to the police e.g. procurement)? I was wondering why these Cuomo-type progressives seem so at ease with the idea of police reform, but that would make a lot of sense. We had a funny scandal in Norway a few years back. It came out that a rather well know organization, called “SOS Racism”, was infiltrated by a bunch of Maoist whack jobs, who had used it as means to embezzle millions of dollars in public funds. Now, these were early 21st century Norwegian Maoist, so… pause for laughter… but I think it illustrates how easily such activist outfits can be manipulated, especially the ones dealing with something as elusive as racism (SOS racism was, among other things, notorious for smearing people as Nazis). Not that activism is wrong, but it needs to be done properly. If the banner is a cliché, there should be some concern. If Google, Facebook and your employer is called upon to police the debate, there should be red lights blinking everywhere.

VictorBout

I get the same feeling. More than enough hints dropped thought the interview as to what he was doing in the Middle East. At best, this is someone who was able to leverage the mechanisms of U.S. power projection in the region for career development. But whereas previous guests with connections to the U.S. government have been clear about their affiliations and perspective, this person couches their narrative in vaguely leftist terminology. It comes off as suspicious.

Animals in Motion

In what way? There are people who genuinely believe that NGO stuff, and work to try and achieve it. There's no perfect perspective in politics. I mean, I know the problems with NGO's and I mostly agree with the criticisms of them – but political parties and other formations also have tons of problems, the iron law of oligarchy and all that.

VictorBout

Yes there are problems with being part of any organized group of people. But anyone who claims to believe that being part of a U.S. occupation, or infiltrating countries on the U.S. government's dime, will do anything to improve the condition of the working class is either extremely naive or disingenuous. This guest does not strike me as naive.

Alex

Agree with lilililili, there's something off about this dude. Also, when it comes to Syria, it seems you can throw out the words "Caesar Files" and "govt massacres" without specificity, evidence or scrutiny and get away with it.

Mark Ames

Thanks, will get a copy. Read some of Elvira Vilches's book "New World Gold" that I think is pretty good too.

Mark Ames

I wish I could read about this Norso-Maoist embezzler story somewhere

Mark Ames

Without getting any more specific, you have the guest very wrong in terms of where he's coming from.

VictorBout

Mark, I really appreciate you caring enough to comment and perhaps I am wrong. He did say he was embedded with the U.S. military in Iraq. Maybe you can understand that it's very difficult, as a non-American who was appalled by the invasion, to trust someone like that.

Ander Pierce

If they're keeping it vague there's probably a reason, and if you don't trust Cyrus take his opinions with a grain of salt?