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Midnights RE Fathoming: Post TTPD 💙🤍 (Patreon)

Published:
2025-01-25 21:00:04
Imported:
2026-09
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In this video we jump around A LOT with thoughts and theories, so please watch the whole video before commenting and then PLEASE comment your theories and thoughts so we can continue to FATHOM ahhhhhhhhWe know you wanted Tay content so hope this fills the void 😂🫶🏼

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Comments

kylinb

I literally refreshed and this was here!!! You guys are the best omg

monika

I never ran over here so fast

Amy

YESSSSSS I have been waiting for this video!!! Thank you chickens!!

Rachel Gresser

Ohhhh such in exciting video to watch!!!!

nikki

I AM SO EXCITED FOR THIS!!!

Christian Roberts

all of my social media has been so dry i am SO happy we have a new video from you gals🫶🫶🫶

Jason

Not now sweetie daddy's favourite tv show is on.

dotty

OH I am SAT for this one!!!! Thank you girlies 💝💝💝

Keri 🫶🏻

Over 2 hours! girlies thank you for FEEDING us!!!

Louisa Nordström

Yessss I've been waiting for this one! So exciting!❤️

Maria DeLuca

So excited for this, thanks girlies ❤️❤️❤️

Kathryn

OH, I AM SAT

Elizabeth Brown

Yess! Was hoping you would fill this after the fathoming of Chloe or Sam or Sophia or Marcus video!! ❤❤

• Sammy 🐍🖤 •

OMG I’VE BEEN WAITING FOR A MIDNIGHTS RE FATHOMING 😍😍 Day made!!! 🥰 She’s been on repeat for weeks so I am READY!! Thanks girlies!! Appreciate you 🫶🏼

Jami Marie

I can’t wait to watch this!! 💙

Megan C

I am DELIGHTED!! Thank you!!

ashley

YAY ive been needing this video from you guys im excited

anxious_swiftie

Oh my gosh can’t wait to click play!! 2 HOURS OF REFATHOMING MIDNIGHTS?! YES PLEASE!!!!!

Marina

Aah😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍 you just made my day

Meg👢

The fact that Em. said "so we are going to START w Midnights"....🙏✨🙏✨... So ready for this refathom... And hoping you maybe meant we will get a refathom of Folklore / Evermore as well🤞🤞 x

GreatCatsby

I'm so excited for this!!! I have thoughts 👀👀👀

Allie

The video I've been waiting for !!!!!!

💯

Yes please. Everything I needed!!!

Zoe

I am so beyond excited for this!!! How can an album almost 3 years old still give us more 🥲🥲🥲🥲🥲

ellsbells

Thank you for serving us with this absolute tea ladies

Richard

You don't have to only do Tay content. Kelly Clarkson might be releasing new music this year. She is starting her own label.

emma

Ahhh I was hoping we would have a refashioning! Very excited to watch and refathom

Generi Talens

I can’t wait for this video but also just want to say you can make ANY video you want about any topic and I will be tuning in ❤️❤️❤️

Christian Roberts

i know you girls aren’t HUGE on the very heavy pop sound, but tate mcrae’s new song “sports car” is amazing and i feel like you girls should definitely listen to her new album that comes out on the 21st of February if you enjoy it!!!

Momo

Omg TWO WHOLE HOURS 🫶🏻💜🫶🏻💜🫶🏻💜

Jessie 🌸

Omg who knew a mic would make that much difference. Clever little chickens 🐓

From Gramma

SUPERB !!! 👏👏👏👏👏

Elvira✨

going to sleep now but can’t WAIT to watch this tomorrow, thank you for the super long content this is so nice and it’s gonna be so much fun to re-fathom with you guys 🫶

Camila Dejesus

Something I've always noticed and always hated about their relationship is how much lesser Taylor viewed herself than Joe. "You paint dreamscapes on the wall" Like girl, the medium you're using is you painting a dreamscape what are you talking about? Even in Lavender Haze, "You don't really read into my melancholia" I feel like this was her trying to paint that as a good thing. Like "Wow, I'm over here stressed and you just pay no attention to it al" But to be honest, if she's sad or stressed he SHOULD care about her feelings. He's not a better person for not caring.

Liz

oh im SAT !!! MY SHOW IS ON 🤩💝🫨 midnights supremacy

Gianluca

I AM SOOOOO EXCITED AND GOING TO WATCH THIS NOW

justine

you don’t understand how much i’ve been WAITING FOR THIS

Gabrielle

You girls are so smart! Love you guys 🖤🌌🦋

sophie

i love how every maroon fathoming just leaves me wondering more its kinda why i love that song sm

Katie K

I will still be here on your 10th refathoming of Midnights girls, with my cup of tea and a biccie ☕️🍪

Chelsea Clark

I think I've decided that Taylor and Matty give me if Dawson and Joey were musicians instead of just writers energy. (Dawson's Creek)

chel

Oooooh this is why I love u girlies, I currently had to get rid of a few patreon subscriptions as I'm saving to move out of my parents for my postgrad course but I just had to keep this sub. You and your videos are such a breath of fresh air and a ooze happiness/comfort. You're videos always provide such good company and will continue to provide that as I move onto a new chapter of my life. Sorry for long message lmao just love u girlies so much and cannot wait to watch this !!!

Kathryn

I absolutely have to be commenting before I forget but, the lyric in SOTB "could have been you, passing by" I get UFO energy! Down Bad, Matty! I've been in denial but I'm sure he's been her muse for a longgg time 🫣

Tami

Matty covered the stage with carnations when performing “ Be My Mistake” in NYC.

luna magna

I'm absolutely sure that Snow On The Beach is about Matty, even the connections to Down Bad and this love being otherworldly - both are track 4's

Caroline Britz

OMG! I’ve been waiting for this video for so long 💙✨🙌🏻

Tami

If in doubt- the answer is Matty.

Christine Violet

If you end up doing this later in the video then just ignore me, but I’m wondering if we can do a refathoming of the Midnights prologue too?

Renata

i’m only at the maroon part of this video and i fully feel your pain girls 😂 it could really be applicable to so many situations but i kind of think that’s the point? there’s so many men who she’s felt she’s gone in these circles with and hasn’t gotten to where she wants to go and all of that is so hurtful and haunting for her. i think there are many, many recent songs that are about this general feeling of being in a holding pattern with partners in general and not specifically about one singular relationship. or if it is it’s very hard to determine lol but i think that’s by design on her part.

Becky

I have been waiting for this video!!!!!! Thanks ladies.

Aloha Record Sargent

Maroon is Matty vibes for sure. Here's a few pieces of evidence to add your excellent fathoming: Your roommates' cheap-ass screwtop rose = "Rose flowing with your chosen family." (the roommates are likely Matty's bandmates, also his chosen family) The "one" I was dancing with in New York = reference to "The 1" and also "Dancing phantoms on the terrace." The mark they saw on my collarbone (a hickey) = "I knew you'd linger like a tattooed kiss." Maroon = "marked me like a bloodstain"

Jay Unleashed

She probably recorded “I see you everyday now” with Matty right there like an inside joke

Georgina

Did you guys see it recently snowed on a beach down in Destin, Florida 😂

Aisha Louise

omggggggg was waiting for this!!!!

Shawn carni

I’m only 30 min in and loving this! I’m with Bonny on Maroon! This is such a fun idea to go back and refathom after TTPD! 🫶

Alexandra Bennett

The only way my brain connects Red (aka Jake) to Maroon is she is referencing that time together with him but not actually him. Red (Jake) was an immature young love but Maroon (Matty) was a more mature adult complicated relationship. And obviously Maroon is a more mature Red so that’s how I connect Jake to it. In my head, it’s not about him personally but about that time in her life.

Liv

When you guys were talking about the wine stain reference in Maroon it reminded me of "marked me like a bloodstain" in cardigan, possibly symbolizing the same relationship

DemiMarie🤍🖤

Love a good ReFathoming of Midnights...she definitely is that bitch 🤌🏻💯

Emily Warfield

Midnights is my favorite album, so excited.

Samm Delamoneda

If you’re not looking at Maroon through Matty Healy lens you’re doing it wrong

Samm Delamoneda

Matty IS maroon, the parrellels to the other songs about him is too much.

Katie

Love this! Midnights will always be a big question mark, and like Em touches on in the video I think Taylor made it purposely ambiguous given she was supposedly happy with Joe at the time it was released. My favorite thing is that Taylor gives us so much of herself in her music, yet we still have no idea what the eff is actually going on in her life. Will never forget the reality check we all got with TTPD. What a fun day that was LOL :)

Alvaro Jose

Cheap ass rose when Jake has a million dollar couch makes me think it is about matty. Also "closest friend" connects to "he was my best friend" in my boy only breaks his favorite toys.

chatsandreacts

yesssss omg I never thought about IBYTAM but thats so tea

Clive

I cannot tell you how excited I am for this video. Being a newbie I always saw Midnights reactions post Joe, and they made me cringe. Now to have an updated fathoming - awesome!

Kayla Murdock

I think the timeline is muddier than we know given that Matty was involved in writing for Midnights but those songs were not put on the album.

Bobhog

OMG IM SO FUCKING EXCITED!!! Going to bed has never been harder. I’m so hyped on waking up tomorrow and having this video!

kaelyn

I truly truly truly think maroon is more generalized as her feelings regarding all past relationships. like it’s an amalgamation of what she learned through out each one, drawing from every single one of them as she fathomed that maybe joe was part of that. he was maroon, not red. which I think you both actually further proved by listing out each of the mash ups. maroon can be applied to all eras. and if matty helped write this album maybe being around him again cemented the fact that joe was maroon (in the past) and matty was reigniting something in her (enter guilty as sin?) I don’t know if there’s any merit to that, but that’s the canon in my head.

Sara Medina

I want the hour that you edited!!! Jajdjdjdjsjs

Camila Dejesus

Gotta say I do think Maroon now is about Matty! I don't think Taylor cares about Jake much at all, whereas we know now she clearly cared a lot about Matty. And considering she was with Joe it makes sense she would have thought that wow, this was the way things ended. This is our "legacy" in that sense. I just think if she wrote a song about Jake today (or in 2022) it wouldn't be a pinning one.

Linzie Wilkins

Is it just me or is maroon obviously no questions asked about Matty?? ONLY because of Chloe or Sam!

Maggie

Woah woah I didn’t expect y’all to skip Mastermind! I think we need to consider that Joe wasn’t seeing her and the depiction of the guy in Mastermind that “knew the entire time” that she’s a mastermind is someone who is SEEING her. To me that ties into TTPD and the connection Taylor and Matty had as artists, (ie, who’s going to know you, who’s going to know me). So in the face of her relationship breaking down with Joe and reigniting something with Matty, she’s choosing to believe that it’s fate and it’ll work because she’s feeling seen by Matty in her art.

Patty Minor

So happy you put this out. Like I’ve said a gazillion times I’m here for Taylor content. So happy to hear a revisit of other albums will be happening. One question on Sweet Nothing wasn’t there an admission that this was about Paul and Linda McCartney?

Clementine

I don't think Maroon is about Jake, the lyric "That's a real fucking legacy to leave" I take as positive, I don't think she views Jake in a positive light, especially now that we have the manuscript, I also believe there might be a matty reference in yoyok if you read the first verse it gives matty for me so that might be something to fathom, something else that I realised is that in question she is asking him a bunch on questions like "Can I ask you a question? Did you ever have someone kiss you in a crowded room...etc" which is a lot like the smallest man who ever lived, in the chorus she says "I don't even want you back, I just want to know If rusting my sparkling summer was the goal And I don't miss what we had, but could someone give A message to the smallest man who ever lived?" and the bridge is just a bunch of questions to...

Karen Valentino

I loved this video, thank you! My overall takeaway is feeling wonder over how subtly and intricately Taylor weaves references to other songs into new songs. She’s a genius.

Manon

I think the Matty theory is strong for Maroon, but personally, I've always pictured that song to be about Harry. The dancing in NY ("move the furniture so we could dance" in OOTW), the wine stain (Clean), the rust between telephones (Now that we don't talk), the legacy to leave (Suburban legends), it's screaming Harry for me.

Melanie

I took a few notes while watching this refathoming and one thing that kept popping up in my mind was the TTPD epilogue and how it was pretty Joe heavy considering most of the album was about Matty. Especially when she said “tried wishing on comets, tried dimming my shine” (bejeweled) and “in one conversation I tore down the whole sky” which could be alluding to the fights you guys were taking about in linking Maroon and The Great War, and maybe how she was the one who initiated the breakup. Also slightly unrelated but isn’t it so curious how Peter is like one of the only TTPD songs not in the Apple Music playlist 😂 After watching your Chloe or Sam breakdown and relating the concept to Peter, it would have probably went to the acceptance playlist (“but the woman who sits by the window has turned out the light”) but its still fascinating how she chose to leave it out!

Luna

I don’t think that any of this is about Matty. Matty was just the miracle move on drug. And the effects were very temporary. She thought Joe was the love of her life. TTPD is all about Joe and about her coming back to herself. To me “ now, pretty baby I’m coming back home to you. I know who my first call will be to” I think this is her saying she’s coming back to herself. It’s not about a man. She’s the man. Matty was just a redherring and a distraction so that it wasn’t so obvious a dig at Joe. She says “ it’s the worst man I write best”…. Regardless, if she caught momentary feelings he was a rebound. You don’t write a masterpiece album when your Taylor Swift about a rebound. Even if they had been friends through the years and flirted here and there.

ton

Watching you guys realise that lyrics work many different ways is so real… she’s so good. I enjoyed this discussion thanks.

Amber

SWIFTIE RANTS ARE ME FAVOURITE TYPES OF VIDEOS THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS GEM, also i just wanted to add that my non-swiftie sister was in my room when i was watching this and said swiftie lore is like a whole different language because how the hell was i understanding you guys' conversation lmao

Lily Logan

They have different messages but Snow on the Beach and Down Bad intertwine for me too!!! like ‘FLYING in a dream’ ‘stars by the pocketful’ ‘aurora borealis green’ is all space vibes to me- and listening to Taylor talk about Down Bad on the radio saying ‘wait this was weird but cool’ reminds me of ‘weird but fucking beautiful’

Amanda Mittelman

Couple thoughts on Maroon: 1. The thought of Jake having roommates (let alone ones with cheap ass wine) is absolutely hilarious to me…he would never 2. I don’t think you guys touched on the rubies line, but I’ve always taken this as the rubies, the shine, the spotlight she gave up to be with Joe (ie bejeweled) 3. The rust that grew between telephones—rust can actually grow really fast, so I’ve thought this could hint that while Joe was filming his movie while Taylor was writing midnights, they weren’t talking as much as she wanted or maybe at all. 4. I also picture the carnations as when he finally did come back from filming, he brought her flowers and they sort of fell back into the lavender haze because they missed each other (V1) but then they couldn’t really avoid the problems that had become so evident while he was away (V2) maybe even the mark on her collarbone being from someone else but even then she wakes up thinking about him even though their relationship is in shambles 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

justine

this album is so important to me for so many reasons 🫶 after watching a few of your videos i watched you reaction to midnights and became obsessed with not only you guys but rediscovered my love for taylor and her music. i had listened to taylor growing up and still always loved her and kept up with what was was doing, but i never made an effort to listen to her new albums for some reason, i had such a weird relationship with music. watching that video made me go back and rediscover her music, there were so many more songs that i knew and remembered listening to with my sister growing up. this also helped me break out of my cycle, and listen to more from artists i already loved or new ones. this album is already superior, but i feel like it holds so much more meaning to my relationship with music, taylor, and you guys ✨💙🐣

Gianluca

SOOO MAROON: i personally think that you missed a very important lyric and that's the: the rubies that i gave up, im just saying: bejeweled, i think that maroon is about joe! Even the lyric in daylight: its golden like daylight (the sky) but actually it was maroon, it was red but darker (rep the romanticizing era). and bigger than the whole sky is imo also about joe. He is blue like the sky. but I also think that Chloe... is about joe and I know you think that its about matty but just Listen to it and think about joe, also the using of the end of champagne problems a Song that they wrote together and you can check it, its the exact same notes❤️

Amber

okay i never understood how people thought that sweet nothing is about joe because maybe people disagree or are unaware which is fine, to each their own, but do people not remember when she liked that tweet about paul mccartney literally saying in an interview that he would come home from a run and tell his wife he wrote a poem and shed say 'what a mind', and that they have a holiday house in wicklow and had ties to the area or something. also i think writing credits are different when it comes to writing the instrumental and the melody, and sweet nothing is such a joe piano moment, which would explain the writing the song together could just be her using his piano for the song not them actually sitting together and writing it (which unrelated would explain why aaron is credited on cassandra even though she had written all the lyrics in the voicenote, because the melody was to the instrumental he wrote so he would have writing credits for that). but anyway i just really really deeply think sweet nothing is about paul mccartney there was more stuff if you look into it but i cant remember it rn and the lyrics relate so well

ton

A random piece of information… there was a large pink moon in late April 2021. JA was off filming but subsequently TS left London in May to stay with him for a couple of months in Ireland while he was on set. Maroon for me could be catching up with MH after a long time… rust (glitch) but choosing to go to JA… (who is the one she danced with) leaving MH hollow eyed. Also where she was on April 29 (high inf) MH put carnations all over his stage in NY after MNTS came out

Tarebearstare

A random thought I just had about sweet nothing...what if this was written from the perspective of their relationship during the pandemic. They said the end was coming (a global pandemic), everyone's up to something (could be the orange guy's nonsense), they're outside pushing shoving (BLM and all the unrest during that time)...but Joe's just in the kitchen humming

ton

Interesting. Love how we all have head canon for songs. Thanks so much for this one

ton

It’s weird but beautiful!

ton

Was just thinking the same thing. Def worth a refathoming!

Elyse

I think people give Matty way too much time and space on this album.

ton

Soooo…. YOYOK opening verse…. Still the yearning stays I wait patiently he’s gonna notice me Were the best of friends You’re smoking with the boys I didn’t choose this town I dream of getting out There’s just one who could make me stay Anyway…. Just dropping this here in case it resonates? 🤣🤣🤣

ton

Did we forget to mention snow is drug slang too….

Ally ❤️

Hollow-eyed In the hallway links me to you’re losing me- running down the hallway, you know what they all say….

Erica

I’ve always been under the impression that the line “the lips she used to call home, so scarlet it was maroon” she is talking about her own lips. Because she is saying the lips were scarlet/maroon. Like, her red lips she uses to call home, like call her mom because she’s heartbroken 📞 Haha

Aloha Record Sargent

Yeah I think Jake (and Joe) definitely know the difference between carnations and roses, too. And what about the incense? I don’t see Jake or Joe lighting incense, either!

Anna

Yes, she says "counterfit" in Glitch and loml and she also repeats "starry": "nights are so starry" – "gazing at me starry-eyed".

Ally ❤️

I think a lot of the songs attributed to Matty are actually shrouded Joe songs. She is a master of obfuscation

Silvia

omg i’m having a breakdown over this video but also enjoying so much had to order sushi

Amanda Laura

The roommate lyric in Maroon stops me thinking its about Jake or Joe

ton

I think your timelines for writing are a bit confused. Wasn’t Joes time in Panama in Nov 2021? I thought You’re losing me was done as a part of those big MNTS sessions when all of MNTS was being written.

ton

It’s so funny how I hear Sweet Nothing as a negative song. All you wanted from me was “Nothing” in the middle of the song is really tragic…ties back to Glitch… went back to guys who want nothing. Also the phrase Sweet Fck All = Sweet Nothing as a switch on Sweet Nothings is clever

ton

lol what if it’s MH dissing JA as just being a room mate vs her “husbands wine” in Ivy 🤣

justine

i feel like it makes sense for snow on the beach to be in denial but still be about matty because it’s supposed to be “falling in love with someone while watching them falling in love with you at the same time” the denial comes from thinking matty was falling in love with her, she mentioned several times on ttpd how he love bombed her it wasn’t real

ton

I think being less public was something they both wanted tbh. I think she genuinely wanted to settle down and be more out of the “over engaged” public eye. Especially as she fears it means she can’t have a normal life and family because of her fame

Erin S

I think why Midnights has become so difficult to fathom is that it is more like folklore/evermore in that each song isn’t directly diaristic and doesn’t wholly point to a single relationship, but is rather an amalgam of past love/s AND Joe, and also her past selves and her current self. She is dissecting her past relationships and why they failed to understand why her now longest relationship (five times longer than her previous longest relationship) is unraveling. Is it him? Is it her? Is it just them and a general incompatibility? Or is it simply that her romantic ideals don’t line up with reality? So a song like Maroon is I think about both Matty AND Joe. And maybe even Jake and Joe. And other songs seem to reflect on Harry or John or Taylor Lautner or Tom in some way. Is it not working out with Joe because he’s too pretentious and fame-averse like Jake and squelches her light? Or too nice to leave her like Harry? Or too tortured like Matty? Or wants too conventional a home life (wife, kids, Christmas… peace) like maybe Taylor or Tom or Calvin did (picket fences sharp as knives), but she wants to be out there making her own name? Or is this all just a problem with HER and not Joe/the other men? Has she been too quick to flee (bolt) at the first sign of trouble in the past and this is the first time she’s hung in there and tried to navigate the ups and downs and this is just new for her? Is she always chasing that lavender haze… the excitement of a new love… and doesn’t know how to sit in the every day of long-term commitment without getting restless? Has she changed her mind that a love that is warm and golden IS better than a love that is fiery and passionate and red? Is it that Joe’s even-temperedness that was once a balm to her is now not what she needs? Is Joe TOO “unbothered” to even fight with her, to acknowledge or share her emotions, to communicate and work through an issue towards a solution, and THAT’s the actual problem? Is it that she can no longer deny the part of herself that she has suppressed in order to mould herself to him and what he values? (Taylor’s Eras are not just about her trying new genres and reinventing herself to stay interesting and relevant… she has been a chameleon who changes to match herself to a love interest. She changes sartorially and musically and geographically to fit herself to another person… until she can’t ignore her own likes and desires and traits anymore. She’s still doing it with Travis… but maybe for the first time, he’s already a lot like her and she’s able to be her truest self with him.) Or has it always been the monster in the room that is her fame that chokes out the relationships? The intense media and fan interest and scrutiny in her relationships was the undoing for her and Harry,… like with Joe, she and Harry were always running from the glare of the camera flashes and seeking places where they could be alone together. Neither could handle the scrutiny, but were also too polite to leave her, so she had to be the one to walk away. Finally, is the problem that she is not in fact the one who can save Joe from his blues and grays the way he saved her after her darkest time? Being with him enabled her to escape her dark tunnel and rediscover the light, but she doesn’t seem to do the same for him. She may even be the trigger for his dark moods, which then threatens to pull her back down into the dark with him, and so the only way she can save him - and herself - is to leave. Alternatively… maybe she IS the one who can save Matty from his darkness. She regrets walking away from Matty before when she was too young to know how to handle it (before she’d had her own extensive dark period) and thinks maybe now she has the tools to handle it and is in fact the one.- the ONLY one - who can save/fix him (or - oops - maybe she CAN’T!). As much as I’ve written, I could go on further about this album! There is just so much to excavate! I think it fully deserved AOTY… it’s so much more complex than others seem to understand!

Darya 🤍

Somehow I thought we already had this video 😂 is this a second REfathoming or am I going crazy

Aloha Record Sargent

Didn't The 1975 add "Question...?" to their pre-show playlist? Another box checked for that song being about Matty. Also the reference to "politics and gender roles" makes me think of Matty's infamous interview in 2016 where he said it would be emasculating to date Taylor, and then the follow up interview where he compared her to Obama.

ton

I’m not sure high infidelity is about cheating but it is confusing. Imagine if it’s Tay writing from Joes perspective 🤣… dragging his feet down the aisle to try and be a good husband, picket fence is sharp, you’re putting on your records and burning my city of London to the ground and that she thinks he’s free loading 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Note: I don’t think this myself, just having a laugh

Sami Ali

First of all I wasn’t even going to watch this unless it was over an hour because I KNOW how much there is to refathom so imagine my sheer JOY when I saw it was 2 hours! You did it justice! Also this is an example of what you guys are best at… pulling lyrics and interpretations in from past eras. I NEED you to write down the order you think the songs were written about. Also a big YES to those folkevermore refathomings! !!!

subtle reads

I think my brain exploded a little bit but in the best way possible after watching this and reading all the comments. Y'all are so smart. I love that we can continue to refathom and return to Midnights (and other albums) for years to come. Now THAT'S a real fucking legacy to leave ;)

Tess7

First, never think a video is “too long” I thoroughly enjoyed this video. I felt your pain trying to figure it all out lol. This is why Midnights and TTPD are such great albums. We really just can’t trust every thing Taylor says - she told us Bejeweled was about her fear of going back to pop music after folklore & evermore. Folklore was fictional, but the first song she wrote was MTR…obviously about her old label and Scott etc. She said at that SS piano, Maroon is about something that took place in New York “a long time ago”. Well, six years is a long time ago, but so is ten years lol. If Im ever granted a wish that I could ask Taylor anything and she has to answer..,.I’d use it to make her explain Maroon and name names 😂 I still think question could be about Harry. I still wonder how she explained some of these songs to Joe, or did she just not care by then? I personally think Taylor and Joe broke up and got back together a couple of times. She did not let the news get out those times. Until it was truly over. Thank you for the refathoming- I think this is the third time? Lol I’ll be here for the next one 🫶💕

Aloha Record Sargent

"Got swept away in the gray" (from Question...?) reminds me of that lyric from Goldrush: "And then it fades into the gray of my day old tea 'cause you know it could never be."

Ally ❤️

Sweet nothing: better safe than starry eyed.

Erin S

OMG… Glitch… Joe being the dude who gives nothing… SWEET NOTHING. 🤯

Jules

Loved the video! I am a newer swifty. I have always loved Taylor but I just recently became a swifty. I love learning everything! I enjoy watching you both fathom and run ideas by each other if you could also do one about TTPD! It would be fun to watch you do Folklore and Evermore as well 💗...I love the patreon thanks for doing this for us!

sNiles

Ya'll are so cute in those shirts!!!

Erica

Okay.. however, she did say in the album summation poem that she needed us to hear her plea of temporary insanity.. how it wasn’t a love affair! Both point to a short and brief relationship. She also mentions going from someone who spent years in denial, rotting away, and then finding a man who told her he could be brand new. So there are moments of joe but most of it is about her falling from one long drawn out relationship, out of the oven, into a rebound, into the microwave. Lots about Matty.

✨Bri✨

Over 2 hours of chatting about my favorite album of all time??? Superior!!! Thank you girlies!! 🌙✨

Jenna Bolmgren

Not to mention the “float in your orbit” line from Chloe et al 🌌

Emily Nielsen

We always want Tay content! Thank you!! 🎤💿🙏

Lisa S

I always kind of thought this too for these same reasons. Also, wasn't Harry roommates with Louis back then? And there were rumors she was barefoot dancing with Harry doing Karaoke with friends in NY.

Katie W

Never put this together until now, but apparently carnations are not naturally red. They originated as pinks and peach. SO, we have our first reference in Maroon to pink (a light version of red, of course) but an implication that the lighter, happier color was confused or fake or manipulated, like their love. GASP!

Jami Marie

I am team Maroon is about Matty

ton

Here are some of the timelines I’ve seen about writing / recording the songs Renegade, WCS, high infidelity Mar 21 TGW Hits Different April 21 Lav Haze Glitch mid year 2021 Vig Sht, Maroon, Anti Hero, YOYOK, MR, Ben, Laby, MM, Paris, Dear Reader Nov 2021 Question, Ur losing me Dec 21 SOTB Karma recorded early 2022 Sweet Nothing Feb 22 Finished recording April 2022

Farrell Peka

I thought that Jack antonoff says that you’re losing me was the last song for midnights??? Am I wrong??

Madeline

Literally joined your patreon for this video lol

Jenna Bolmgren

I hate to say it, but I think Cornelia Street may not be about Joe… 🫣

Sarah B

The confusion of the midnights album photo shoot (and midnights mayhem with me) looking extremely 1970s but then midnights not sounding 70s. Why? Why the 70s visuals? Now seems like the purpose might have been to reference…. [the] * 1975 * also, down bad/snow on the beach connections guilty as sin "hedge maze" lyric.. a hedge maze is a maze like a labyrnth

Taylah Louise

I would love the excuse to listen alongside the girlies

Katie W

Am I the only one who thinks "the guy who seemed like he would have bulled you (Matty) in school" is Joe? The gut observation was that Travis is an athlete and perhaps intimidating because of his size, but I don't feel that timeline makes sense. Travis is also known -- off the field, at least -- to be mostly goofy and happy and lovable. However, Matty would have easily been in a position to wedge his way back into to Taylor's life after another on again/off again situationship, to say, "Oh, I saw you out with Joe in the tabloids, he seems like a real posh asshole, so quiet and aloof and smug, thinks he's better than me and is so judgmental, and I can't believe you're with him. I've heard stories from him from mutual friends and he's a real asshole." It is delusional and deflecting and just talking shit about Joe to feel better about himself, but I can totally picture Matty doing that to manipulate Taylor after all their time together. Anyone else think this is the only option?

Ally ❤️

“She needed Matty to move on” but as we know, NOTHING good starts in a getaway car 💔

Leney

When you guys refathom folklore and evermore you MUST include renegade and the Alcott too. I swear everything goes back to renegade 😂

Leney

I think Maroon could be her reattributing the color to Joe. She says in daylight “I once believed love would be burning red but it’s golden”. And I think maroon is her fathoming that Joe isn’t golden he’s red just like all of her other relationships. Not even burning red but a deeper, sadder, red like maroon. So applying the concept she started with Jake but talking about Joe. That’s why it is so ambiguous because it’s a song about a relationship ending in the same way all of hers does which is why is could be about so many different situations.

Ally ❤️

Thanks for doing this!!!!

Alexa

this was so awesome, looking forward to a folklore & evermore refathoming as well ❤️

Jeebs

"Looked up at the sky" in Maroon could be another nod to Matty as a lot of their relationship is compared to the stars and planets.

Annie930

"the burgundy on my t-shirt when you splashed your wine into me" in Maroon links with "vintage Tee, high heels on" in Cardigan, which we know from Eras is about Matty.

Annie930

Also this woman loves mention of a hallway in a song. Maroon, Exile, Hits Different, Coney Island, You're Losing Me all mention a hallway.

Sofia Sanchez

I also feel like Maroon gives off such Matty energy. For ne, it could only be about Joe if we assume they had a previous breakup before the official one.

Bella

Besties how are u wearing long sleeves in this hideous QLD weather right now 😩

GreatCatsby

Idk Ive always felt maroon was about Harry but maybe I'm alone in that? I'm not a one direction fan and was never super into her and Harry's relationship but just lyrically, here's a couple of things I take. -out of the woods "move the furniture so we could dance" to "dancing in New York, no shoes". I'm sorry but no one is dancing in any public space in New York with no shoes. -Harry seems to be one of the only relationships she's written about the guy openly crying. -harry and Taylor seemed to have a back and forth relationship mentioned quite a few times throughout 1989 in Style and OOTW. -The vault tracks really made me dive into the maroon being about Harry theory with Taylor confirming a significant period of time of not speaking in Now That We Don't Talk correlating to "rust that grew" between telephones. I feel like Jake just doesn't fit into maroon narrative and story telling. I could see Matty fitting it better than Jake but something just has always said it's about Harry. Andddd I'm off my soap box now 🤣

Claire Williams

You both so pretty in this video!!! Glowing gals

Leney

I agree!! And clean having “you’re all over me like a wine stained dress I can’t wear anymore” and harry having a song called meet me in the hallway”/ several references to hallways

Leney

I think she is talking from someone else’s perspective because who on earth would tell her she was free loading😂

Cassandra

What the hell did Taylor tell Joe bejeweled was about lmao

The Renn Domino Experiment

Regarding Maroon, the lyrics are "you were standing hollow eyed in the hallway." In the TTPD epilogue, Taylor describes Matty as "someone hollow." I thought that was interesting.

Leney

I really hope when you do folklore and evermore you keep in mind that Taylor likes to reattribute her songs to new people. I think in the same way she sings Endgame and Labyrinth for Travis now. She views some songs like cardigan to represent her and what she thought she had with matty Healy at the time. However I don’t think she was writing those albums with him in mind. She could have said “this song is about you. You know who you are” before singing Mary’s Song and no one would think she wrote it originally about him. People only think that about folklore and evermore because the timelines murky. But I highly doubt she was reconnecting with matty Healy during that pandemic. I think folklore and evermore show more bout what was happening. With Joe at the time

ton

🤣

ton

Don’t know, I know he posted the date they worked on it but not aware he said it was the last. Perhaps the last they completed production on rather than writing as such?

ton

Probably because she and Joe had time in Wicklow together in July…

ton

As well as…Miss Americana, Ronan, Very 1st night, if this was a movie, I can see you and Our Song I guess….

ton

I picture that photo with Calvin Harris every time 🤣

Mary 🫶🏻🇨🇦

Oh I’ve been so excited for this since she said midnights and tortured poets are sister albums!! Thank you so much girls ♥️

Ludic Queen

💀 actually ttpd x maroon mashup is illegal.

rachel long

I’m so fully convinced maroon is matty because I also think “the 1” is about him and he’s “the 1….i was dancing with…” and then she sang maroon for the first time in New York and it was SAD. Then she played it 8 more times post meeting Travis in a much more “healed” way….and then there’s the scarlet maroon connection to Chloe et al…then that loops back to the internet starlet connection in the 1!

Lia

Oh my god

Mary 🫶🏻🇨🇦

I think one of the things I wonder is did Joe and Taylor break up earlier during the midnights process? There are some songs that feel really dark about their relationship and maroon and others allude to other men she’s had relationships with so maybe she just said it’s midnights throughout her life to cover the fact they had a planned breakup announcement and they’ve been separated for awhile during this album process…

✨Bri✨

This is the timeline that makes sense to me: I think that you’re losing me happens bc of the Great War (which I don’t think is one fight i think it’s a time period of resentment and tons of other things) and Taylor says she needs space so they break up. Then she’s realizing that it hits different (curse the space that I needed) bc he’s Joe and this is unlike anything before bc it’s such a long relationship with deep complicated roots. Then they end up getting back together (survived the Great War) but it’s not the same as it was and she realizes that she was in the delulu in getting back together bc she was just trying to stay in the lavender haze all the while Matty shows up giving her attention again and promising her everything that she felt has been missing with Joe and so then she ends things with Joe.

Jeebs

I sort of took the "Top 5" lyric to be a reference to Myspace - which wasn't that how Taylor and Matty first really connected?

Sarah J

Matty and Taylor may or may not have dated during the pandemic, but the 1975 did release an album (Notes on a Conditional Form) on May 22 2020, right in the middle of the pandemic. Taylor could have been inspired by that album coming out and wrote any Matty songs during that time in part because of that.

megsterg

I also think it meshes with the lyrics Smallest Man about him sliding into inboxes, like reaching out to girls on social media.

megsterg

Who of her exes would buy carnations thinking they were roses?? Like come on, that just screams a Matty thing to do lol

The Renn Domino Experiment

These questions are for anyone. When did Taylor stop playing new music for Joe? We know they wrote songs together during Folklore and Evermore. At what point did she no longer share her songs with Joe? Of course, we may never know the truth, but I think it's interesting to think about.

megsterg

I'm convinced that we're going to get some vault tracks on reputation that will have us refathoming all this again. She met Matty around 1989 release, so I think she for sure wrote songs about him that ended up getting scrapped when she disappeared and then the vision of reputation came about. Potentially even what the lyrics about 'longings locked in lowercase inside a vault' could be referring to. Ahh!!

Rose Ellen

I find it so interesting that the bulk of Midnights was written while Joe was away. They'd spent a lot of time together in the early years and during the pandemic that I wonder if an extended period of time apart really got her thinking. I've wondered if the 'rust that grew between telephones' lyric in Maroon could refer to this time (or a similar time they've been apart) and haven't talked as often and been really disconnected, which feeds into themes explored in You're Losing Me. Like she's saying "You're expecting me to just always be here, but actually I'm starting to fathom that I'm feeling lonely and unappreciated in this relationship and I need more from you"

Rose Ellen

We need a discussion of Renegade!! TTPD gives so much context to it and I think Renegade is necessary to understanding why she's staying during Midnights

Andrea C

I’m ill at the thought that my beloved Maroon could be about ratty Matty Healy. I’m going to live in my happy place where it’s about Jake, Harry or Joe

Jessica Argueta

I love the video so much!! Thank you for re-fathoming midnights!!! I can’t wait for the folklore and evermore re-fathoming! So much to say!!

Brittany Diamond

I still can't help but feel that Midnights as a concept is still largely what we've imagined: she's looking through her past relationships to try and figure out what her current (at the time) one was failing. It's layered but cohesive, which is very her. So she's wondering if it's like the situation with Jake, where they just keep slipping out of rhythm and the whole thing is just sad? Or is she the problem? Is he just not fighting for me like Harry? Is he too threatened by my success like Calvin? Would I just be leaving another perfectly good man for the sake of my career like I have before? Etc But there are some darker tinges of Matty like in High Infidelity, implicitly wondering if she's about to do the same thing to Joe and that she did with him (while ruminating on Calvin). And then both Labyrinth and Glitch are huge connecting pieces between Midnights and TTPD, in that the lyrics can quite literally be about either Joe or Matty and then she continued that in *several* songs on TTPD because the beginnings of both relationship were so remarkably similar. We obviously don't know enough to do anything but theorize, and once again a lovely discussion from you guys. <3

Elizabeth

Yessssss! Renegade adds so much context to Fresh Out The Slammer!

Christine

For your Evermore fathoming, ‘no sound it’s all around’ in Snow on the Beach reminds me of “My house of stone, your ivy grows. And now I'm covered in you” where Joe is the ‘husband’ in Ivy. The ivy placed by Matty is slowly and quietly growing like Snow accumulating on the Beach

Elizabeth

I agree with this 100%

Elizabeth

I think the re-fathoming needs to be going all the way back to 1989… Taylor & Matty connected before 1989 and she asked the 1975 to tour with her on the Red tour. Therefore- a lot of 1989 could be about Matty. As well as going into Reputation and even Lover… I think that once Reputation TV comes out and we get vault songs, it will confirm that a lot of Reputation is about Matty and not necessarily all about Joe. Also, Matty & Taylor were both born in 1989, and I also think we could take titling the album 1989 as alluding to a connection to The 1975. (Especially with them both wearing each others merch during that era). Songs on 1989 that I think need to be re-fathomed: Style, Out of the Woods, All you had to do was stay, Wildest Dreams, This Love, I know places Wonderland, “Slut!”, Now that we don’t talk, Suburban Legends Songs on Reputation that I think need to be re-fathomed: …Ready for it?, End Game, Don’t blame me, Delicate, Dancing with our hands tied, Dress Songs on Lover that I think need to be re-fathomed: (I think that we could even look at Lover as if she is looking back over past love as she does in Midnights as well). Cruel Summer, Miss Americana, Cornelia Street, Death by a thousand cuts, False God, Daylight Cruel Summer & Hits Different have always seemed to me to be about the same person and I think they’re both about Matty. I think Bonny was right in thinking that Hits Different is about back when they first met and that uncertainty of the on and off and back and forth. “Bad, bad boy, shiny toy with a price. You know that I bought it”- Connection to My boy only breaks his favorite toys? “I'm drunk in the back of the car. And I cried like a baby coming home from the bar (oh) Said, I'm fine, but it wasn't true. I don't wanna keep secrets just to keep you” -This is giving “And I never don't cry (no, I never don't cry) at the bar. Yeah, my sadness is contagious (my sadness is contagious) I slur your name 'til someone puts me in a car. I stopped receiving invitations” -This is the same energy from Hits Different as Cruel Summer “It's cool, that's what I tell 'em. No rules in breakable heaven” -It makes so much more sense to me in the context of her & Matty having an on and off again casual thing because he wasn’t ready to have anything serious (lost to the lost boys chapter of your life) that then Taylor would be playing it off and being like “oh it's cool, we can be casual, i’m cool with that” even if she really wasn’t cool with it. Also, it makes more context in Reputation if her and Matty were the ones sneaking around because he wanted to hide from the media, he didn’t want the attention of her fame to over power what he was trying to do with his music. Which is essentially what he explained in that interview back then when he said it would be emasculating to be Taylor Swift's boyfriend. Also in Hits Different- “I used to switch out these Kens, I'd just ghost”- Connection to My boy only breaks his favorite toys? “Rip the Band-Aid off and skip town like an asshole outlaw” -Connection to Cowboy like me Delicate- The 1975 video for the song Caroline is SO similar to the Delicate music video. There are insane similarities to the girl in that video and Taylor in the Delicate music video. Also, in Maroon “The one I was dancin' with, In New York, no shoes”- In the Delicate music video Taylor is dancing in New York with no shoes Death by a Thousand Cuts- The 1975 song You & Me Together Song (You & Me TS) is heavily rumoured to be about Taylor and the lyrics directly connect to Death by a Thousand Cuts.

Elizabeth

I've said this before but I just really don't think The Alchemy was written about Travis, I think it was written about Matty but Taylor has now reimagined it to obvi connect it to Travis. I think All sports references were always about Matty: End game= Matty Big reputation- Joe did not have a “big reputation” during this time and still does not, but Matty definitely did. “You and me would be a big conversation”- the world wasn’t ready for them to be together and clearly after their most recent attempt, it still wasn’t ready. “I got a bad boy persona, that's what they like. You love it, I love it too 'cause you my type” -Joe is absolutely not a “bad boy” lol “Knew her when I was young, reconnected when we were a little bit older. Both sprung, I got issues and chips on both of my shoulders. Reputation precedes me, in rumors, I'm knee-deep. The truth is, it’s easier to ignore it, believe me. Even when we'd argue, we'd not do it for long, And you understand the good and bad end up in the song. For all my flaws, paranoia and insecurities. I've made mistakes and made some choices, that's hard to deny” - this whole verse is Matty speaking to Taylor “I hit you like bang” -Taylor keeps comparing meeting Matty as a crash or some sort of wreck- Chloe et Al- “Back to the moment I crashed into you Like so many wrecks do Too impaired by my youth To know what to do” Question?- “Does it feel like everything's just like second-best after that Meteor strike?” The smallest man- “you crashed my party”- to me she is referencing James crashing Betty’s party Taylor’s Verse in Reputation: “We tried to forget it, but we just couldn't. And I bury hatchets, but I keep maps of where I put 'em”- To bury a hatchet- "Bury the hatchet" is an American English idiom meaning "to make peace". I think here Taylor is saying I’ll make peace with the fact that I want to be your “end game” but it’s not in the cards for us at this point in time so I’ll “keep a map of where I put you (Matty)” for a later time and then we will be end game The alchemy- “I circled you on a map” She’s going back to where she “buried the hatchet” “It's like your eyes are liquor, it's like your body is gold”- I know we thought Joe was gold but Joe was always blue and Matty was always gold, also Matty is always referenced to wine. Matty very publicly loves wine and he “drinks” it at all his shows, it’s part of his bit on the stage. Willow- “Lost in your current like a priceless wine” =Matty “The more that you say The less I know. Wherever you stray I follow. I'm begging for you to take my hand, Wreck my plans”= wreck what I have with Joe “That's my man”= “they shook their heads saying god help her when I tell him “that’s my man” “Head on the pillow, I could feel you sneaking in”= folklore and evermore mostly written about Matty. Also the Willow music video is a direct continuation of Cardigan which is about Matty and therefore so is Willow. “As if you were a mythical thing”= mythical/ she’s writing about Matty in folklore and evermore as if it’s just a story or a myth. “Like you were a trophy or a champion ring”= Matty is all the “sports” references “And there was one prize I'd cheat to win”= connects to High infidelity & Illicit affairs “Every bait and switch was a work of art” =scheme/ con artists/ “Cowboy like me” The Alchemy- “This happens once every few lifetimes”= once in 20 lifetimes/Cardigan “These chemicals hit me like white wine”= wine is Matty “What if I told you I'm back? The hospital was a drag” = relationship with Joe “I circled you on a map”= bury hatchet but I keep MAPS of where I put ‘em “Hey you, what if I told you we're cool? That child's play back in school”= child’s play as in Betty, James and August “Is forgiven under my rule”- I forgive you for it, Betty forgives James “He jokes that it's heroin but this time with an "E"- this is just obviously a clear reference to Matty being addicted to heroin in the past. There is absolutely no way or reason her and Travis would be having a conversation like this. “Cause the sign on your heart said it's still reserved for me”- STILL reserved for me, it once was and then it got away from us

Kristiina K

This! Gold 🫶 Taylor is so complex and her escapism to "lunar valleys" is known. I think her songs are reflections of a feeling, and that feeling can be linked to many stories/people/memories/fantasies.

Liz

I am sorry but folks are dululu if you don’t wanna admit Maroon is about MH. The girl swirled him into her poems and locked them in a vault. She then wrote basically a full album about him, shocking us all and being honest about her decade longing to maybe make it work one day with him. She KNEW what she was doing when she said that word in CSSOM. It is about Matty. I’m also not convinced Hits Different is about Joe anymore . She was dreaming of MH, I don’t think she was throwing up in the street over him. I love Emily, but she is always trying to say songs aren’t about Matty, when they actually are - I know it stings…hah!! But she was IN LOVE with her BEST FRIEND and when he left her down bad…it broke her. Also, CHEAP wine…is Matty. Records…is Matty. Sitting on the floor like best friends, that is giving Matty. I know it’s hard to come to terms with the facts - but it just is about MH.

Aloha Record Sargent

Agree about Glitch! I will never not hear this as a Matty song. And loved the possible connection of bloodmoon lit to a maroon sky!

Elias

HOOOO boy tWO HOURS?? You are keeping us FED can’t wait to listen!!!

Elias

I agree with this, her tacking maroon on at the end when she sang the black dog sorta confirmed it for me

Aloha Record Sargent

They ran into each other at the NME awards in Feb. 2020. We know she gets inspired to write songs after seeing old flames at awards shows!

Aloha Record Sargent

Well, she ran into Matty at the NME awards in Feb. 2020. And he had been tweeting at that time that she should write an acoustic album.

Aloha Record Sargent

I think they met before that. He mentioned her in an interview in 2013!! He said she supported his music and even asked him to open for her tour.

Hayley 🫶🏻✨

I feel like her weighing up the pros and cons of leaving Joe came to fruition by writing The Great War and You’re Losing Me at roughly the same time. The pros are in The Great War where she is reflecting on the positive impact he’s had on her, getting her through her darkest times (Rep) vs the cons in You’re Losing Me where she is reflecting on how, to quote Bejeweled, familiarity breeds contempt, as time has gone by he has become complacent and isn’t providing her with the love and security he once did. She mashed these two songs together at the Eras Tour and it completely killed me! I have a whole theory about The Great War which I wrote about - https://www.paperrosecreative.com/blog/the-great-war-lyric-theory Thoughts? 💭 🌙✨

Aloha Record Sargent

I think it’s Calvin. He’s the bully, he’s the “dickhead guy” that you saw that night!

Emmie Kruger

I would be fascinated to know what Joe thought about Midnights. Like....there is no way he could not have thought some of the songs were sus.

Noor Sm

I loved you guys i can watch you talking for hours and never get bored ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

Aloha Record Sargent

I think the album prologue/poem and summation clearly state what the album is about. I would highly suggest re-reading those if you don’t think any of it is about Matty!

Aloha Record Sargent

Lots of lyrical connections between Maroon, Cardigan, and The 1

Emmie Kruger

I've wondered since fathoming the Bejeweled is about Joe, if the top five lyric could also refer to like Spotify top five artists. Like he doesn't even listen to her music. Obviously also meaning priorities but perhaps just a extra meaning as well.

Liz

‘I find the artifacts, cried over a hat’ - Hits Different ‘I keep finding his things in drawers’ - ICDIWABH Just saying…we may have to come to terms with it being a MH song friends!

Emelie

I get that but I see ICDIWABH as looking at both breakups so it could still be Joe

Emelie

That would be interesting! I don’t know why but every time I hear the bridge of Peter in the end my brain starts adding the “why don’t you rain on my parade” of the Alcott to it and I think it’s quite offensive

Liz

Yes, I could see that. But by TTPD I don’t think she’s depressed about that ending as much. I think she’s down bad finding evidence of what she had with Matty and now he’s left her, because he’s the smallest man that ever lived. She was singing Bejeweled about Joe not letting her shine a whole album before. So I think by here, she’s not crying over Joe. We just all had no idea she was absolutely heartbroken over Matty.

Emmie Kruger

About Glitch, I just don't know if I would call a 6 year relationship a "situationship". And also Taylor and Joe also started as just friends. And a few seconds later I'm fastening myself to you with a stitch feels like it references how quickly she moved from Tom to Joe. I would rather call Tom a "situationship".

Emelie

Yeah maybe you’re right! Though she could still be sad about Joe even though she felt that resentment about him after bejeweled.. I guess we just don’t know

Liz

Very true! Hah!

jordan bertges

bigger than the whole sky always confused me as a song but now i 100% think it's about her breakup with joe, specifically because of how the lyrics tie into the TTPD epilogue when taylor says "And in one conversation, I tore down the whole sky"

Esther Michaut

to me pretty much all midnight is about matty - and I've drawn a parallel between Snow on the Beach and Down Bad, which are both imo alien like abducting songs - being transported somewhere else

Luli Swiftie

Hi guys! I don't know if this helps but there was a blood moon on December 19 2021 in New York... just 2 days before RED tv came out... so she would've been in NY on a rooftop thinking about red, looking at the moon and realizing it was maroon.

Heidi Muller

Gosh it's a bit of a mind field. Hopefully in 50 years it will all be declassified

Luli Swiftie

or she could be with Joe looking at the sky but thinking about RED...

Luli Swiftie

ALSO "But loneliness struck at that fateful hour Low hanging fruit on his wine stained lips" in summation poem ... the lips I used to call home so scarlet it was maroon... THIS WOMAN! also there was another blood moon in NY may 15 /16 2022... this one was at night so the wine makes more sense... I'll be on my deathbed fathoming maroon.

Emmie Kruger

I think this refathoming is great and there are definitely songs that I previously thought were about Joe that are about Matty, however, I think something that is actually evident to me about TTPD is that many of the songs are about both Joe and Matty, and that there are similarities between the two relationships. Both relationships were a bit impulsive at the start as well, with Taylor potentially cheating on Tom/Calvin (or maybe just in her mind...) so I think it speaks to a pattern and a repeat of the same mistakes from Taylor which could be why Matty's breakup had such a spike as it was fast but opened old wounds. I also feel that we should not forget how important Joe was to her. Just because Matty was also important does not negate the impact Joe made on her. IDK obviously we can only speculate but I am of the opinion that a lot of the songs on TTPD and Midnights are Joe coded at the same time.

Nina

Oh Emily, Blue is definitly your colour!!! 💙

Laura

Alsooo in Glitch 'nights are so starry' to 'gazing at me starry eyed' in TSMWEL and ofc her using counterfeit in glitch and loml. I reckon that’s too specific of a word for her to choose TWICE without it meaning something and there being a connection.

Gianluca

I NEED MORE OF THIS 🫥 lets do folklore and evermore too

Emmie

Thank you for this video. Loved every second of it.

monika

This is how I see the timeline also!

monika

Oh my god you're so right!

Gianluca

I forgot to mention in my maroon fathoming that in the non explicit version she says lasting legacy not f*cking, so 6 years are a lasting legacy to leave. sometimes its very important to consider the cleaned versions they give also new content to fathom

monika

I absolutely second this!

Saskia 🩶🤎🖤🤍

Thank you for this really long video! I absolutely love content like this 💙

Saskia 🩶🤎🖤🤍

Yes exactly! I wonder how much he knew about Matty and if he questioned their whole relationship after the breakup when he saw that she was dating him now

Anna Mehrbilder

my biggest compliments for your style of discussing with each other. how you interrupt each other, than shortly checking in who can for this moment shut up and who has to talk, the one who gets to talk making quickly a pause to listen what the other one wanted to say. it was a masterclass in listening and interested in one another s opinions, what a joy. besides that: so well edited, so dense (I really had to concentrate), so divers and open to future developments. I actually really dont have theories, I dont sit around and wonder who maroon is about. as much as I love listening to you discuss it - at the end of the day I just want to sing along. I am a simple girl and all for melodies it seems :-)

Livi

I think about Matty for Maroon, simpely because of «i see you every day now», and «I wake with your MEMORY over me thats a real fucking legacy to leave». And in Chloe of TTPD she says «will that make your MEMORY fade like this SCARLET MAROON, like it never happened» ….. i mean she is kind of speiling it out for is in a way here. She also says she lost «THE ONE i was dancing with in new York». Which could be a direct link to The 1. here she also mentioning him taking a girl home from the internet. And in Chloe she says «and you have kids with an internet startet». So now i feel like all these songs here Are about the same person. 💕

monika

Bonny and Emily, thank you so much for this highly offensive video!!! I've watched it with my mouth wide open for the most part, your incredible ability to link songs from other albums to Midnights, your vast knowledge of the timeline and your interesting take on the songs is just amazing! This is why I love your videos so so much and also why I called my best friend to come over tonight so I can watch this video again with her! I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE FOLKLORE AND EVERMORE RE FATHOMINGS!

Livi

Hmm but yeah it could also be a Joe song… Maroon is my favorite from Midnights and is such an intense song!!! So it holds alot of feelings. I cant deal. Would love to have Taylor confirm the contects of this superior song 🥹🔥♥️

💯

I loved the interjections, the lyric displays, and the mini heads! My fav part is the long conversation of your thoughts. Again - YOURS. Don't ever be afraid to be unfiltered. That is what we need from this community. Honest opinions and thoughts that can change as we learn and fathom. Be safe and love everyone here!

💯

Also we need a refathom of lover and folkmore for sure.

Natty Vee

All I'm gonna say about maroon is... The word 'maroon' can be the colour, but it also means: "leave (someone) trapped and alone in an inaccessible place, especially an island".... and based on So Long London 'you left me in the house by the Heath', I personally think Maroon is primarily a Joe song. I say primarily, because I think it could be a case of another Happiness where different sections of the song could be about different people, like Taylor explained in that Zane Lowe interview for Evermore with Happiness

Giel

I'm convinced Maroon is Taylors version of Mattys perspective; and it was Maroon because she knows he was reminiscing during the red TV era after writing about him in Folkmore

Joan Chan

Getting lost in the “who is Maroon about” conversation is deeply relatable. I also love how you two discuss and disagree in ways that are still loving towards each other!!

ton

Yes I think that TS is good at writing about the feelings she has and they may be evoked by multiple experiences, the reason these discussions are so interesting is for that reason cause she’s so good at the open discussion of the same feelings in multiple circumstances

ton

Interesting I always link it to her friend Claire’s pregnancy loss. Claire did an interview about how she wanted it to be recognised and talked about because society is too uncomfortable with the topic that impacted her ability to grieve. I thought this was a nice acknowledgement by Taylor

Giel

regarding the "friend" lyric in maroon; there are so many songs referring to somebody that she wants to see as a friend but isn't able to, ever since lover. I think it is so obvious all those songs are about Matty; glitch, it's nice to have a friend, MBOBHFT, paper rings, the archer, cardigan, its time to go, closure, yoyok,

ton

Hmmm… for me I think it’s always possible to find links to support a theory but I definitely think the 1989 stuff is too far for me. All of the messaging and hooking up and going to his concerts etc started after 1989 was released. I think she was a fan earlier but not in any kind of connection to be writing songs about. And definitely lose me when suggesting STYLE (with the 1D album take me home in there) is not about Harry Styles ??? Nope can’t buy it

Giel

Maroon: "the one i was dancing with, in new york, no shoes" = cornelia street: "barefoot in the kitchen, sacred new beginnings"

Giel

Emily: "obv cornelia street is about joe", to me it seems this is proof cornelia street is about Matty Healy (and half of the lover album is)

Eirini

I’m still not convinced that Question is about Matty…. I think maybe OOTW was like their song at the time, and that’s why she made that connection, but I can’t shake the feeling that this is a Harry song… maybe it’s her fathoming that this happened more than once, and it’s about them both? Idk

ton

Yeah she was pretty ‘dishevelled’ at them and MH gave an acceptance speech about being a Cowboy there….

ton

Note… I don’t think they dated then, she was at the show with Joe but agree she may have been inspired by her feelings at seeing him again

Mimi Grazebrook

I saw a tiktok saying how in maroon she says ‘that’s a real fucking legacy , to leave’ and cause of the comma she’s saying that leaving (the relationship or her) is a legacy… not that he is leaving a legacy if that makes sense??? this caused me to spiral 💀🩷

Erin

I feel like I still can’t comment on whether you have the timeline right because of folklore and evermore!! I need a refathoming of them and then I think we need to create a timeline and actually have an image of it - I will say though even though we know Taylor wrote your losing me in 2021 could she have been looking back on the time around tolerate it? AND how does Matty fit into folklore if we all assume that cardigan and maybe a few other songs are about him. I also need to know about the album she scrapped after 1989 would that have been matty coded? OR are some of the songs from midnights those songs reimagined? OR will we get them on the rep vaults. I think question..? Is harry because a lot of the songs we definitely know are about harry end with a question mark, are we out of the woods? And is it over now?

sleepless_dream (Lauren)

maroon absolutely has to be about Matty to me especially because of TTPD & Chloe, we have all the evidence we need in all her albums to understand it 🤓🩷

Kathryn

Love this take!

Monique Fonseca de Lima

I think that bejeweled is also about coming back on tour. She is like, I’m gonna dance all night, I’m gonna shine cause I’m bejeweled and there is nothing you can do about that even if this break us apart

ton

Also just note that MH dated FKA Twigs from Jan 2020 to July 2022 I believe

Eirini

About High Infidelity: she could be reflecting about how she felt with CH and thinking about how this feels the same now with Joe… she cheated back then and she explains why, maybe she’s thinking if it’s worth it or justifiable if she cheats again? Guilty as sin?

Dillon Hayes-Pelletier

In the clean version of snow on the beach Taylor says weird but it WAS beautiful

Monique Fonseca de Lima

And like you said it makes sense being one of the last songs she wrote for midnights. I thinks she was already thinking about going back on tour. And she said on her book that when she was planning this tour she knew it was gonna be massive like no other tour was before. So I think in this song she was also fathoming the fact that she was gonna be travelling a lot and shinning and dancing every night and maybe Joe wasn’t so happy about that. No wonder they broke up when she started the tour. And I also think during this period of time Matty was supporting her idea of going on this tour

Karen

Please don’t EVER be sorry about long videos, they are the best!!!

idadler

I have always wondered, if her decision to stay with Joe so long after You're Losing Me was written, also has to do with the public reaction to a potential breakup. Taylor was always painted as a serial dater, that "couldn't keep a man". I feel like the public and the media always painted her as being the problem in any relationship she was in and that she was the one who made these relationships fail. During her relationship with Joe, I remember reading alot of times - even from fans - that that made her more mature, almost like she really was the problem in all her relationships and he fixed her. I can totally see, that she might have clung to this relationship, so that the media and the public wouldn't be able to say that she ruined another relationship. After all she knew, how Joe was perceived by the media and also her fans, since she always painted him in a great light in all of her songs. Would love to hear your opinion on this

ton

That’s fascinating …. Even the way she sings “to leave” makes more sense that way! Thanks!

Nele

She really said "swirled you into all of my poems"

Esther Newman

I love the Maroon discussion - you've opened my eyes to totally new perspectives. I've always thought it was a Harry song actually given all the lyrical connections (this is a good guide https://www.tumblr.com/swiftlystyled12/700220732262760448/why-maroon-is-absolutely-about-harry-styles) and also because she potentially was reflecting on this period whilst re-recording 1989 TV (and also Red TV since the end of that era overlaps with the Haylor period). Though saying all this, I think Taylor is deliberately being vague about all her muses - she's learnt how to do this so well ever since folklore and evermore. Aka the period where her and Joe's relationship started to break down and potentially also when she realised being so clear in meaning wasn't sustainable (that it was creatively restrictive and also impossible to do so and protect a very private relationship already under strain). It's also been her way to avoid the 'paternity testing' her music goes through and I guess to reflect more on herself/her patterns of behaviour. Maybe Maroon has touches of all these people - Jake, Matty, Harry, Joe - because she's trying to work out why she keeps ending up in this situation? Much to ponder!

Daphne

Bonny you just blew my mind pointing out the "I see you every day now" tense change 😳

Drey Szabó

I just have to giggle when I think about the fact that Scott has probably learnt so much about his own daughter through your fathoming haha. Like I know he probably knows a lot more factual details about her life and understands the context better than anyone but really, I don’t think Taylor ever talks the meaning of it all through with him and he must be understanding his daughter so much more because of you guys!

Brenda1989

Ohhh I so wished u guys would have re read the midnights prologue and the ttpd epilogues along with the refathoming of the songs but THANK YOU so much for this video!!! I think the thing that’s been so wild about the last 4 albums from Taylor is they have all been written in real time and how absolutely wild that is. As for maroon…I do think it’s about Jake… 1) rubies I gave up = scarf= “innocence” 2) wake with ur legacy= she wrote the manuscript 12 years after red was released that’s a legacy

Marissa Killpack

As a 1975 and a Taylor fan I just always assumed Matty and Taylor had a on and off relationship over the years behind the scenes because of how they spoke about one another and certain 1975 lyrics and when this all happened it was like a vault song coming out, things that were missing made so much more sense. In my opinion Maroon is about Matty. However, when I first heard it I thought it was about Harry! I was totally convinced lol. Sometimes I still picture Harry when I hear it hahah especially the " That's a real fucking legacy to leave" because Harry was everywhere for three years straight and he made a legacy with his nights at Madison Square Garden and I thought that was what she was referring to for the longest time hahaah but there is a lot of lyrics that this song compares to with Harry songs such as Meet me in the Hallway, From the Dinning table. The lyrics "The lips I used to call home" reminded me of Harry only because she refers to Harry as being home in Style, but when I heard Chloe, or Sam or Sophia or Marcus it confirmed it was Matty for me officially.

lane ♡︎

I’ve always felt that she kind of sounds annoyed or bored of it in her tone of voice when singing sweet nothing

Ally ❤️

Well…. Blue was already taken by Halsey & Joe 🤭

Lauren

I absolutely cannot wait for the Folklore and Evermore refathomings!

Ally ❤️

So I was thinking that Lover & Midnights were sister albums, but it’s pretty crystal clear that Midnights & TTPD are… I’ll have to compare track list parallels… 🤔

Ally ❤️

Lavender Haze creeping up on me: Ivy covering her house of stone… now I’m covered in you. (Similar metaphor)

Dawn

Loveeee

lane ♡︎

It’s so curious thinking that Joe literally did not listen to midnights or the process of her writing these songs and not fathoming where she was at.

Ashley

I think it’s important to remember Taylor is a free woman who was never really locked away by Joe- she said herself in ttpd that these things were Self Inflicted— lover fest had limited dates because of her moms cancer treatments — I think Taylor still has a lot of processing to do about the Joe relationship because as of right now, she’s making it seem like he didn’t let her outside lol we are also seeing more of Joe in interviews so I’m gathering it wasn’t all one sided

claudia jones

loveeeee this video but so hilarious that we are being side eyed by Taylor twice 😭😭😭xx

Tiana Kirk

I love the cosmic Matty muse theme theory. Snow on the beach, high infidelity (chart the constellations in his eyes), question…? (Second best after that meteor strike), long story short (rare as the glimmer of a comet), glitch (nights so starry/ blood moon lit), Chloe et all (could it be enough to just float in your orbit), down bad, mastermind, Peter ( same moon, different galaxies) but also I hate it here (I will go to lunar valleys in my mind - feels like a guilty as sin call back)

Cristina

Haven't thought of it this way before...but what if lavender haze chorus is referring to Matty, whole the rest is about Joe.. feeling the lavender haze "creeping up" would make more sense in the context...I'm with you, you don't say too much and I'm feeling a new, unexpected love taking over me. No deal - we're not getting married, I'm not getting that 1950s shit they want from me...so I might as well just stay in this love bomb I'm starting to feel for someone else. And it's "surreal" .. the love with Joe wasn't surreal at this point..it's giving weird but fucking beautiful , a rekindled love with Matty. Maybe she was more honest than we thought, posing the first track as look I have these conflicting feelings I can't make sense of. Just not about the same person.

sharon teles

I think that in Bejeweled "the band" is the 1975 band from when she went to their show and matty probably asked her if she has a man: And when I meet the band They ask, "Do you have a man?" I can still say, "I don't remember"

Kiki

And he can be my jailer, Burton to this Taylor ... If we're all convinced that ready for it is about Joe, it's a lot that Taylor started with the prison reference on Reputation

Noor Sm

Yesss PLLLZZZ !!

Lan

Absolutely LOVE this discussion!

Ashley

Hits different may have been written once they got back together— like she’s pulled it out of her journals then put it into a song— hits different doesn’t feel it was produced in the thick of a break up but just that she knew she could write a killer break up song from what just happened

kayla ramoutar

i agree. i think a lot of taylor's writing on ttpd has swayed people's thoughts on her previous albums and i don't really love it? i don't think we need to overanalyze her 6 year relationship through the lens of the smallest man who ever lived— and she told us NONE of them ever scratched the surface of her, INCLUDING matty, and to see a lot of the fandom giving him like... flowers for their relationship/situationship makes me feel a lil icky lol. like what i mean is we don't have to start attributing songs that have always made sense as joe-songs to matty just because she wrote fresh out the slammer, y'know? this video was really great and obviously the girls are great at lyric fathomings, but there are definitely moments in the video about certain songs that i just can't get on board with haha. LOVE the video anyway though because i'll watch anything they post lol

Luna

She wants us to know at the end that it’s the worst man she writes best. Matty is not the worst man. But she had to find a way to put this album out without creating an insane media storm around Joe, which is what everyone expected.

Luna

I do agree that there’s a lot to be referenced about Matty. I just think we’re putting way too much focus on him. When he is the red-herring. Maybe it’s making a miss other things because of it.

Carly

I think Snow on the Beach is about Joe and her affair with him while she was dating Calvin on April 29th. If you think of it through this lens, all of the lyrics make sense. I think she wrote Midnights not knowing what to do about Joe and some of the songs are her reliving her good memories/feelings about their relationship, reliving memories of other relationships and trying to figure out what went wrong, with the thought of trying to process what to do about her relationship with Joe.

Carly

I think that the dickhead guy in Question is Calvin. She met Calvin at the Brit Awards. That same night she was hanging out with Matty and The 1975 and they looked high in the photos. Matty supposedly hates Calvin. I do think that Calvin is the bully she refers to in Chloe et al.

Cristina

Maroon never clicked for me to be about Jake because of the roommate and cheap ass rose, while Jake has a million dollars couch and probably drinks only sophisticated wine. Cheap rose is also very British vibe..so either harry or matty. And with it being called out in Chloe...it's simply about Matty in my opinion. Also "crashed into you like so many wrecks do" makes me link to "when you splashed your wine into me". Maybe that's how they first met by physically crashing into each other at a party / meteor strike

Saskia 🩶🤎🖤🤍

I read a comment on here earlier saying that The 1 is clearly about Matty and writing The 1 like that is a hint to The 1975 and now that I think about it it’s sooo obvious!! Can’t wait for your Video about re-fathoming Folklore and Evermore 🩶🤎

Saskia 🩶🤎🖤🤍

Me too! Ttpd told us so much and tbh we as a fandom have to fathom her albums all over again since 1989.

Saskia 🩶🤎🖤🤍

I am not really familiar with the The 1975 music tbh - could you please give some examples which lyrics or songs you are sure are about Taylor??

Sov

love this refathoming!! tbt this discussion has made me question everything since REPUTATION!! ya the relationship was 6 year old but 1 year was spend in rep tour, one 1.5 years in covid bubble and frankly the lover era year was spent pretty much in preparing the album release and her mom's cancer treatment. idk but it seems Joe saw taylor during the hiding year and was like THAT is the only Taylor I want. the 1st year of relationship was the honeymoon period that I feel Taylor clung to for the next 5 years

Jeebs

I recently have had more a feeing that The Manuscript isn't about ATW10 but maybe more about revealing her relationship with Matty. The story of them is no longer a secret to Taylor. ("the story isn't mine anymore"

kaitlyn 🤍

queens this is unrelated but would you be interested in reacting to szas new deluxe album ‘Lana’? It’s a very different vibe for her and certain songs I think you’d have the best reactions to and the best time fathomingggg. Since it’s. deluxe of Sos i’m not sure if it will be grammy eligible but if it is I can definitely see this being a strong contender especially given szas success with Sos!!

Geneva

Are you guys mad at each other in this video? 😅 I don't think I've ever seen you both lose your patience with each other this much lmao

Giel

the rekindling with matty healy in the middle of the pandemic totally happened i think; illicit affairs, this is me trying, betty, tis the damn season, cowboy like me, and ivy are all pretty explicitly talking about this in my opinion

Laura

Loved this video so so much gals😭🫶🏻 I personally think maroon has to be about Matty! The incense is giving Matty imo (smoking weed then burning incense) not Jake or Joe. And if we refathom some songs on folklore also being about Matty then “rosè flowing with your chosen family” in the 1 fits the rosè in maroon! And “I chose you the one (the 1) I was dancing with” fits with the 1 too. Plus the mention of maroon in Chloe et al seems too obvious for it to not be a direct connection, especially as she uses the words ‘memory’ ‘scarlet’ and ‘maroon’ in both songs♥️ It’s just the most perfect and concerning song ever!! I got the Cornelia street x maroon mashup in Liverpool and honestly it was the best moment of my entire life 😩

Nicole D

PLEASE REFATHOM the Midnights Liner Notes!!!!!!

lana del gay

Also, You'll slide into inboxes and slip through the bars... You meet some woman on the internet and take her home..!!!

Renata

brillianttttt refathoming ladies, and i especially love how you explore the multiple different avenues a song could take because that just makes it so much more informative considering we’ll probably never fully know the true story lol. it’s nice to have all the different possibilities discussed. there was so much happening in her life at this time it’s no wonder she was writing songs like a mad woman! one thing i think is interesting is that you guys think the black dog is about matty, i absolutely think it’s about joe, the starting line reference notwithstanding (we know taylor has loved the starting line since she was a teenager, it makes sense she would find meaning in one of their songs for her joe). i also think imgonnagetyouback explores her feelings of going after joe again after hits different. it tells us so much about the mindframe she was in during that breakup, which i do think they did, like it hurts like hell to be without you but getting back together seems wrong too. idk those are just my thoughts!

Marissa

Love this video! Caroline O’Donoghue described Midnights as “the fase in which you start slowly hating your boyfriend” / resenting your relationship (without always realizing it) on her podcast and I thought that was spot on. I always thought some songs on Midnights are about multiple people, like she started to do on folklore (hoax) & evermore (coney island) and she also does on TTPD (The Manuscript). I think Maroon is a prime example of that. We will be talking about this forever 😂

Megan C

I think about this all the time. I truly don't understand this. I assume she would share what the songs meant and refer to... but maybe she didn't? Did she lie? Her speech at the Grammys when she won aoty for folklore she thanked Joe, who is the first person she plays every song to.

Dorka

lol 45 minutes in and you are only at Maroon

isabel

i am soooo glad yall made this video!!! midnights is a top 3 for me for sure (could be 1 🫣) and i’ve had so many of the same fathomings to songs!! it’s nice to feel seen sometimes 🥹🥰💕 thanks!!!!

lana del gay

If question was born out of rerecording 1989, which we've kind of assumed it was, then that tells me that it was one of the earlier songs made for midnights a potential order i've come up with is Would've, Could've, Should've (Potentially born out of re-recording Speak now?) High Infidelity (a question mark for me, but it was written at the same time as wcs) Question (matty refathoming) Karma Anti-Hero You're On Your Own, Kid Vigilante Shit Mastermind (General songs not about a relationship) Hits Different Bigger Than The Whole Sky (Joe and taylor break up) The Great War Paris (they get back together and everything is fine for a moment) You're Losing Me (Taylor fathoms that her and joe are on their last leg if he doesn't stop... tolerating her) Lavender Haze Sweet Nothing (Things aren't working again with Joe, but she ignores it and focuses on the positives) Maroon Midnight Rain Re-fathoming older relationships to figure out what to do with her current one) Labyrinth Snow On The Beach Glitch (Begins to fall for matty again because he's showing her the attention Joe isn't) Dear Reader Bejewelled (Taylor and Joe are hanging on by a thread, Falling for matty has really opened Taylors eyes to how bad joe has been treating her) I believe Bejewelled or Dear Reader were the last songs written for midnights.

Shannon

There is NO WAY Maroon is about Jake! At all, not even close.

Amelie

for hits different, bonny has low-key convinced me that it's about matty. the whole second verse being about how she used to date and how she was before they ever went out and then when they first ended things she was actually really upset about it yet she was still going to "the bar" (going out so to the rest of the world we didn't see that) and then the bit at the end "i stopped receiving invitations" could be a direct link to reputation and how everyone hated her, therefore she stopped being invited to events and places.

Amelie

also it could be a good reason as to why the song is so upbeat and the production is so fun and playful and happy, because her and matty were in a good place/were friends at this time so she is reflecting on when they were first together in a playful way??

Tina

“karma is my boyfriend” - I always tought that she meant karma itself is her boyfriend, that it is “he”, she also says karma is a god=he

Julie

I think there must have been some songs (probably glitter pen) written between lover and the pandemic - she’s always already working on the next album - so some songs like lavender haze could have been much earlier

Ava Demassio

Maroon is MATTY CODED I WILL DIE ON THIS HILLLLLL

Leah Rose

When Midnights came out and Taylor gave her explanation video/audio she talked specifically about feeling taken for granted AND she talked about wanting to step back into the Popstar moment and kind of hyping herself up that yes, she could do it, which definitely ties in nicely to her going back on tour!

Leah Rose

I really feel this, when I first listened to TTPD and even now i find tons of connections between her relationship with Joe and her relationship with Matty. Example, I'm actually a firm believer that Chole et al is a Joe song yet I can easily see how it's a Matty song too. Loml although I believe to be about Matty, has some very interesting lyrics that tie perfectly to Joe, and i think a lot of that is intentional on Taylor's part, but also I think it just goes to show that there were a lot of similarities in how the relationships began. With Joe she was leaving behind her relationship with Calvin and Tom. With Matty she was leaving behind her relationship with Joe. It's all soooo fascinating.

Lisa

You guys are like two mathematicians at NASA headquarters breaking this down😂 About Maroon - IDK who the fuck it is about anymore, but I have never seriously taken it to be about Jake. I get it, maroon is a darker shade of red, but that to me doesn’t automatically mean they are connected. And scarlet you can also take as “scandalous” or “sinful”, like in the book The Scarlet Letter. Yes, the letter A was scarlet red in that story, but it also had a meaning of “wrong”/“sin”. Also, “I wake with your memory over me/That’s a real fucking legacy to leave” can potentially refer to the memory of who she thought this person was; the memory of how good things used to be. About Snow On The Beach: I definitely think Matty. “But it’s coming down / No sound / It’s all around” gives me such a strong sensation of inevitability. Like she couldn’t fight this feeling if she wanted to, it is undeniable. About Question: I do think Matty, but I really needed TTPD and The Anthology to fathom that. About Bejewelled: “Didn’t notice you walking all over my peace of mind / In the shoes I gave you as present” is a really interesting line to me, because my interpretation of it keeps changing. Obviously, she is starting to realise that this person (probably Joe) has greatly affected her (maybe that wasn’t his intention or he didn’t even realise it himself, who knows). But the line “In the shoes I gave you as a present” almost gives me the impression that she recognises that she has allowed the situation to develop like this. She has allowed herself to make certain decisions based on his happiness and comfort, which has led their relationship to a place where she feels trapped. Now, there are almost always some compromises in a relationship and that’s completely normal, but there has to be a balance. I also feel like the fact that she was feeling so low in her relationship may have enhanced the rush of joy she got when Matty gave her some attention. It doesn’t necessarily mean that Matty was doing everything right and was being perfect at that time, but maybe that little bit of attention was just a great relief from her feelings in the relationship and therefore it felt very significant. About Mastermind: Definitely about who she is and how she goes about things, but I feel like there is a layer of her questioning whether or not that is a good thing. Yes, she manages to get what she wants, but what you want isn’t always what you need. Do you know what I mean? About folklore/evermore: First of all, I think a lot of the specific story details are probably mostly fictional, but the underlying emotions in the songs may be from her relationship. Secondly, I get what you are saying about her not wanting to share what was going on with Joe and therefore labelling the albums as fictional, but I think she really hadn’t fully fathomed why she was feeling so low. and even if she was aware of the problems in the relationship, I don’t know if joe asked her not to explicitly write about it. I think she could’ve definitely had the desire to not share a lot about that, especially if she still wanted to repair the relationship. Can you imagine if she had released an album where she spoke about every problem they were having and then stayed in the relationship??? No one (including us) would shut up about it.

✨Bri✨

For some reason I can wrap my head around almost all of the other potential Matty songs except for maroon. To me it just feels so much like a breakup of a real relationship, and with so much of ttpd being about how they never really gave an actual relationship a chance in the past it doesn’t make sense to me. But SOTB, question, labyrinth, and glitch make total sense to me! I wasn’t convinced of glitch but you guys gave me some very interesting fathomings in this video. Haha but for some reason maroon still doesn’t add up for me!

Marissa

Oh and I really can’t ignore how Hits Different literally transitions into Fortnight. So I do believe that she got scared and very sad after the breakup before the definite one - which makes sense after such a long time - that made her look back on their relationship with rose colored glasses. After they got back together again, she realized how bad it actually was and started romanticizing Matty even more. In that song she said that either her and Joe would get back together or that she would go mad (which in the end both happened, as she later describes her relationship with Matty as a stay at the psych ward).

Lia

I’m so fucked up by how Bonny described snow on the beach, now I’ll never look at it in the same way as I did before this!Thank you for sharing and letting me fathom and connect more to the songs🥹🩷

Becca C

When I hear the real fucking legacy line I always think all too well, and Jake 100% , I feel like she’s looking back at what she though was this amazing love and realizing that it was darker than she thought: especially the fact that she has commented on the age difference in the vault tracks and maybe re fathomed how messed up that was of him.

Claire Williams

Labyrinth was immediately my favorite song on Midnights, and it still is. She sounds so angelic, and I can feel her emotions and all of the turmoil in her mind in the song. I feel like that song perfectly sums up Midnights. She's so stuck in her head in Labyrinth and isn't that the theme of Midnights? Staying up all night, thinking too hard lol? I LOVE LABYRINTH and yes it makes so much more sense now that we have TTPD.

alessia

I really feel like snow on the beach precedes down bad… SOTB is Taylor being beamed up and down bad is after when Matty drops her back down

Marie S.

Emily your hair lenght/ style is iconiccc

Deborah

I would love for you to create a playlist with your theorized timeline. Not all the songs, just the songs that contain the key plot points from this story in the order you think that they were written!

Deborah

Also, I read Rob Sheffield‘s book heartbreak is the national anthem. And he said that Sweet Nothing is a song written about Paul McCartney and his wife. That line about writing a poem and the partner saying “what a mind” is a story from Paul McCartney. I don’t know if that’s true or not but I thought that it was really interesting!

Marie

TEA

jordan bertges

I totally understand that interpretation, I used to think it was 100% about that, but the lyrics that get me is when she says “Every single thing I touch becomes sick with sadness” and “It’s all over now, it’s not meant to be” I just feel those lyrics point to the situation she’s talking about being her fault in some capacity + “not meant to be” and I feel like she wouldn’t say that about a child of her friends passing… I just think there’s more to the song 🤔

jordan bertges

I think this makes a lot of sense! I kind of understand what Emily is saying about there needing to be some sort of change in their relationship for them to remain together post You’re Losing Me, but I think we’re underestimating how hard Taylor tried with Joe and her ability to focus on the love she had for him over her own feelings, emotions, and needs in a relationship… my guess is during that final year of them being together things were not good, and she was getting her internal validation from Matty versus getting it from Joe. Also, if Joe was shooting movies during that time period and away for several months, it would have made sense for the relationship to be breaking down for a long period of time with them not talking and spending little time together even if they were “together” in public.

Emily Wheeler

I really think Maroon and The Bolter are linked. I don’t think Maroon is about a specific person, I think it’s about her ending relationships and how it’s a legacy by leaving it.

Emily

Thank you for this video…Love hearing your retrospective thoughts about this album !!!

Katie W

Totally agree. The connection is that the two loves were both hot and intense and fiery, so they corrolate in her mind as the same color. The experiences were similar; the men were not.

Shannon

EXACTLY!!! 🫶🏻

anna

Rhonda

I mean…Maroon..it can apply to Jake, Harry, Matty, and Joe!! The girl likes to dance..moving the furniture with Harry…dancing in refrigerator light with Jake…dancing barefoot with Matty…and Joe ..I think she gave up getting rubies from him…he couldn’t commit to a diamond lol I think it’s a combo ..the girl likes a bare foot!!! Sorry Em…Hits Different..Matty Healy…especially leading into Fortnight with they forgot to come and get me.

Christine

I was wondering if The 1 is about Matty too, specifically ‘If one thing had been different Would everything be different today?’ I just don’t see her saying that about Joe. It sounds like her & Joe had multiple issues therefore, if 1 thing was different I don’t think they still would have been able to make it work

zara

THIS. To me there’s nothing more obvious that Maroon is about Matty 🍷

Nicole

I used to think that "I was supposed to sweat you out" was a sort of innuendo abotu a steamy fling, but while you were talking about it I think it could be more of a detox "sweat it out" type of reference. In the same way that Matty over those years was getting clean of his addiction, she was trying to detox from him and get over that moment, that dream of him.

Nicole

I hadn't taken the time to refathom Hits Different, but I agree with a lot of Editor Bonny..."bet I could still melt your world" is giving imgonnagetyouback. "I can tell when somebody still wants me" and "i can take the upper hand and touch your body". Plus you get something like "find the artifacts cried over a hat" - the artifact was because it was from so long ago and that triggered her to think about that time and break up with Matty. And then again in I can do it with a broken heart we get her again finding things "I keep finding his things in drawers, crucial evidence". And it would make so much sense for the end of hits different and the start of fornight to link up if Hits Different WAS about MH.

Ana

The Great War and tolerate it and Fresh out the slammer are connected because of “her” being mentioned twice as well as silent dinners Lay the table with the fancy shit And watch you tolerate it Spineless in my tomb of silence Tore your banners down, took the battle underground And maybe it was ego swinging Maybe it was her Splintered back in winter, silent dinners, bitter He was with her in dreams

Nicole

A lot of this really could make sense!

Jesse Conner

“Maybe it’s ’blood moon lit…because it’s maroon??” *duhn duhn* Ok but why did this remind me of Law and Order but with Maroon?? 💀😂😂

Ana

My “tolerate it” epiphany: Tolerate it is most definitely about Joe if we’re looking at it as part of the loathing trifecta — “tolerate it”, “the Great War” and “fresh out the slammer “. All three songs have the overlapping themes of silent dinners, “her”, the feeling of being left behind. She’s the one staying at home while he’s building other worlds on movie sets playing out different characters and lives after which she’s welcoming him back home with the battle hero welcome. She’s the one polishing plates to then have silent dinners during winter — this lyric evokes the same image as her “tolerate it” performance on the eras tour. She’s in the prison waiting by the door like she’s just a kid for him to come back and give her some attention or the way she says it — for just one hour of sunshine (which you know they release you from solitary confinement cell for one hour a day, right?) Who wouldn’t gratefully accept crumbs instead of starving to death? And we get “her” twice, and “tolerate it” does sound like being with someone who’s not present in relationship that they’re in but daydreaming about someone else. All in all, her insane writing will probably keep us awake for years to come. P.S. while writing I realised how much there is in “peace” and “Bejeweled” about it as well

nikki

I know it’s not a Midnights track but I think that somewhere in all these re-fathomings we simply must include Renegade as a piece of the puzzle

maya zutra

Maybe Maroon is the friends we made along

Artenchanted

I think she is wearing a white t-shirt on the photo/short video that you mention? like it's a very common outfit to wear any day. I don't think it indicates any particular date unless I am missing something.

Alexis

To add to the Maroon discussion, I think it’s important to consider how often she played it during the Eras tour. I mean of course, it’s such a superior song so it’s warranted, but also it feels like it really really resonated with her. It would make sense to be a Matty song especially in light of TTPD. And I know we skipped over YOYOK, but similarly I thinks there’s a reason she played that one so often too. Imagine how she was feeling while writing Midnights and then in light of both breakups. The message of being on her own but then also that she could face this must have been so meaningful. It’s no wonder why Maroon and YOYOK became two of her favorites songs to play as SS.

Curt Decker

This is the ultimate fathom, and I DESPERATELY need your folklore/evermore re-fathomings!!! I’ve said for YEARS that folklore/evermore is way more autobiographical than had been originally stated.

Curt Decker

Welcome! The water is GREAT here.

Curt Decker

We NEED the folklore/evermore re-fathomings… I am deeply CONCERNED! ❤️❤️❤️

Curt Decker

The “secret gardens in my mind” lyric from “I Hate it Here” tell me that there is a huge connection in folklore/evermore that we’ve missed. I am unwell.

Sara🇸🇪

My feeling is that Maroon is about Matty, i have the same feeling as Bonny! The legacy is the feeling and dreaming about what it was and could have been. I also think she sing i see you everyday now, she has a little space between everyday now, thats why i would thinn it is now as in today. Maybe the depression playlist is about she is in a relationship with Joe but realizing her feelings for matty so it feels so sad.

Sara🇸🇪

LOVE THIS RE-FATHOMINGS😍🥹 been hoping so long for this😍😍😍😍

Sara🇸🇪

OMG just so this. I hope the girls do to! This got me thinking sooooo much…..

Laurent D

I would love for you girlies to react to The 1975's 2022 album, because in so many ways, it IS the counterpart album to Midnights, and you've read some lyrics, but musically the pain and feelings of love are so present

Hannah

Okay. But these playlists. I honestly don’t make me think about who the songs are about but what they are about. No matter who Maroon is about it’s sad, it makes sense on a depression playlist no matter who is listening and applying it to their own experiences I think. At the same time Sweet Nothing and Lover can be beautiful love songs, in hindsight they weren’t for her.

Alexa

Just thinking about Sweet Nothing…I definitely agree there could be connections to Lavender Haze in the chorus! But on the other hand I think the ‘they’ behind ‘they said the end is coming’ could also be referring to her friends. We can assume from So Long London (‘and my friends said it isn’t right to be scared’) and Fresh Out The Slammer (‘my friends tried but I wouldn’t hear it’) that she was already being warned or told by those closest to her that her relationship wasn’t working, or wasn’t going to work at least. It would make sense that in her delusional state (😭) this would cause a rift between her and her friends, and make her even more inclined to run towards his quietness. Anyway! Love this video 🥰

farah abed

I LOVED THIS SO MUCH THANK U QUEENS ❤️❤️ I think joe and taylor definitely had an on and off period of breaking up and getting back together and this is also reflected in the fact that we really didn't see taylor at all in 2022, she was basically MIA and i think it's because of all of the turmoil and uncertainty she was facing with joe. And since we know for a fact that YLM was written at the end of 2021, i think it makes perfect sense for The Great War to come after a song like that of such deep sadness and mourning (i mean what greater metaphor than world war I to describe the depth of the sadness, hurt and betrayal she felt in YLM?)

lou

my running theorie is that at one point taylor had a revelation that what joe was giving her wasn't actually enough and spoke to him about it. it resulted in a big ass fight and taylor wrote you're losing me. while joe was away, she realized that fighting with him and being on the brink of a breakup with joe actually felt much different than it ever had, so she wrote hits different. when joe got back, they talked it through and taylor wrote the great war about the whole you're losing me situation

Micra

I do feel Taylor and Joe would have not lasted that long if we did not have a pandemic and lock down. This makes me so sad because she deserves best.

Emma

Oh could you also refathom the prologues for these three albums (midnights, folklore and evermore) with the hindsight that we now have from TTPD

Lale

Thanks for this video! Loved it! I think Maroon and Hits Different are about MH. For the legacy part in Maroon, I think it is linked to Suburban Legends. Also in the end of suburban legends she says 'my life would be ruined' when he doesn't come back to her anymore and TTPD literally says I love you it's ruining my life. But who knows 😅 I really enjoy that everything is connected, she is a mastermind...

Ali ❤️‍🔥

No one agrees with me but I feel so strongly that maroon, hits different, Chloe et al. Are all about Joe. “You just watched it” is giving “do something babe say something” like she’s reflecting and thinking like “I gave this guy so much of my time and he really just didn’t even care.” I also always feel like matty seems like he would have bullied people in school and I seriously can’t get behind that lyric being about Travis. Then of course the maroon lyric - which brings me to maroon. The connections to Cornelia street and that time period are a LOT, plus I think he was away from Taylor a lot for filming whether the relationship was in a good place or bad place and that song to me seems like they’re in a bad place and he’s away, they’re talking less (rust grew between telephones), also with Bonny saying looking up to the sky seems like outside, I always picture them up on the roof (which she mentions a ton during lover). She’s looking back at that time and realizing her purple pink skies were darker - maroon. Hits different was released on CD at the East Rutherford shows and matty and Taylor were together at that time. I think the obvious love in that song and how close they were, having a key, their things being at her house, etc. doesn’t even fit matty from 1989 era because they weren’t super romantic. They weren’t in love, she just built it up in her head in the years since. I can’t imagine they were close enough at that time for him to have left his things, had a key, her friends to tell her love is a lie. Also, the second verse has a reference to getaway car which tells me that whatever situation she’s talking about is after rep. Anyway, No one agrees no one agreeeeees (anti hero voice lol)

Ali ❤️‍🔥

Also if glitch is about matty, she’s saying we were supposed to be just friends, and the lines after make it sound like they weren’t that serious when they ended in 1989 era OKAY IM DONE

Hayley

In Question she says, “I don’t remember who I was before you painted all my nights a color I’ve searched for since.” Then in Maroon she says, “Looked up at the sky and it was Maroon.” Maroon was the color she’d been searching for 💔

k80scorner

“But your eyes are flying saucers from another planet” “I’ll build you a fort on some planet where they can all understand it” 👀

LindseyMarie

This is everything I wanted! Thank you so much for doing this! I don’t have people in my real life to discuss these things with🫶🫶

Leah Rose

I am so glad I found someone else who feels this way. I have always felt Chloe et al was a Joe song. "Hologram stumbled into my apartment, hands in the hair of somebody in darkness" could easily refer to Joe and his role in Conversations with Friends and him and his castmate were, well, fairly intimate in the show, which is putting it delicately. Also Taylor's self-deprecation tendencies are used much more often with Joe. Her saying that it would break her cold heart if he were to tell her he loved her the way that she was, feels way less like something she'd say about Matty, but she cared deeply about how Joe viewed her and she put herself down and blamed herself for their problems. She does NOT do that with Matty. The way that she used to be was someone who was very private, and she did that for over 6 years. This ties nicely to "as the decade would play us for fools" because they were together for the greater part of a decade. And then don't get me started how "fools", ties to The Prophecy (cards on the table, mine played out like fools in a fable), which then ties to the "card sharks playing games" line in Cornelia Street. Maroon could potentially be a "sleepless night" where her and Joe almost broke up. It doesn't have to be about a past relationship. There are a lot of lyrics throughout Taylor's discography that point to her and Joe having trouble at some points. I mean False God, After Glow, Cruel Summer, and Cornelia Street all have lyrical connections to Maroon!

Erica

Yes! They really should react to it. Especially if there are re fathoming like this. That would be amazing

Feride Eron

what's INSANE to me is that in the behind the scenes of bejeweled she still has her and joe as a wallpaper on her phone. insane behavior. thank you guys for the videooo we needed that 💙🤎

Mavi💖

The way I didn't know this video was a need on my life until you provided it!!

Hadas Mailhot

I'm curious if I'm the only one who heard it this way - the first time I heard Maroon I was sure the "lips I used to call home" line was talking about her lips that were maroon - as in these lips of mine that I'm using to call home, to talk to someone on the phone. But then I realized most people understood it as she used to think of the the guy's lips as home. am I making any sense? random but I feel like it can be both

K

sweet nothing makes me sad now. I am in a happy relationship and could relate to the song a lot. Like I also relate to invisible string . And now both songs make me so sad thinking of the end of their relationship

Eva

OMG and "Just say, 'I loved you the way that you were'" could be referring to Taylor when they first met and she wanted to hide away and maintain a very private life, versus after Folklore and the pandemic when she was ready to go back out and dazzle again.

lane ♡︎

I feel they were both in denial for so long and maybe he just assumed she was making fictional story lines and songs? Idk but he had to have been avoiding a lot for this relationship to go on for as long as it did.

lane ♡︎

It all makes so much sense when Bonny said Hits Diff, Great War, Losing Me order. I also agree that bits and concepts of songs on The Anthology were written around the same time as Midnights and it all came full circle during the process of TTPD.

smolberry

As someone who once had a Matty in my life for years....the fact you said Matty and her didn't "date" during the Pandemic is sooooo funny to me. 😂 A "Matty" in one's life doesn't just simple date you. He is stitched...interwined...or shall i say...swirled in all aspects of your life. Its complicated. You and they never wanna let go. He is always there...even if he hasnt been therebforna while...he will always find a way to send you Downtown Lights. She and Matty knew each other before 1989 came out. Like between Red release and 1989. I even think she was inspired by the title of Matty's band's name for her album title. It makes sense. 1989 ... 1975. Idk maybe I'm delulu

Dani

Love love loved this!!

Sara Rose

Am I the only one who thinks Bigger Than the Whole Sky is still a huge question mark??? I still don’t know what or who it’s inspired by. It definitely feels like a deeper sadness than a breakup. So it’s not a Joe vs Matty thing. Is it a grief thing? Is it for Ronan? I’ve always been so confused by this song.

CamilleC

What will happened when Rep Tv isn't just Joe 👀 i'm so curious to see if Matty is more present in a song or two like the moment they've met/Hangout after 1989. I need to know and i need to see Bonny's face if that the case 😂 😲

Hannah

If Taylor and Joe did break up and get back together then I think there's a good chance that Bigger Than The Whole Sky could be about him. Or... if she did realise that she still had this love for Matty but chose to stay with Joe and try to let Matty go then the song could also work for being about Matty. The lyrics "what would've been, could've been, should've been you" make sense if you're talking about someone who you have all this unexplored potential with. Plus "you were more than just a short time" would fit the Matty narrative at that point too

Hannah

I also do think there's a good chance that Hits Different is about Matty. The song isn't necessarily about a break up, its just about someone who you can't move on from coz something about them 'hits different.' And the fact that both the "switch out these Kens" and "have they come to take me away" lyric directly link to MBOBHFT and Fortnight which are almost definitely matty songs

Alyssa

With regards to what was written first... at my Liverpool N2 show she mashed up The Great War with You're Losing Me. The Great War was sung first, into You're Losing Me. Could reflect that The Great War was written first if she was painting a narrative with the two songs in that order? The mashup went: "I really thought I'd lost you.... but how long could we be a sad song?" so could also suggest that The Great War was written AFTER You're Losing Me because she is reflecting on nearly losing him in The Great War!

Erica

I commented the same thing! Because she is listing things that are maroon. So she is saying maroon lips… they could only be her lips….! Or one of these men wearing maroon lipstick haha And the maroon lip reminds me of reputation. That darker red lip she wore!!

Erica

It definitely sounds like she is calling home with maroon on her lips. She always talks about talking to her mom about her life. She doesn’t have a therapist but she has said her mom is like her therapist.

Alyssa

A chatty video about song crossovers would be sooooo intriguing!

Joslin Boals

To me, The Great War has always been reflecting on the same huge fight from Afterglow. They have a lot of connecting lyrics, and perhaps she’s thinking back on that fight to convince herself they’re okay because they survived it.

Hadas Mailhot

Wow yes I love this theory, she could be calling her mom haha

Erica

I love this way of viewing hits different. And the “switch out these Ken’s” line .. joe and Calvin were so KEN looking. Tall, blonde, fit. And matty is not a Ken at all…. He’s different. Grungy, brunette, rockstar.

Erica

I know no one is talking about Rep necessarily, but I just have to say END GAME is a song I finally fathomed after the whole Matty timeline played out. I could never understand how joe had a big reputation?? But damn it really fits Matty and her. “Ooh you and me we got big reputations… you and me would be a big conversation”…?! And they were!!… AND and “I heard about you, you like the bad ones too” (lol at joe liking bad ones.. no way, but Matty…..) “we tried to forget it but we couldn’t, I bury hatches but I keep maps of where I put em” .. “I can’t let you go, your hand prints on my soul” .. It just fits their whole narrative of never fully dating because they didn’t want to commit to end game. They could tell the feelings were strong enough for that. Which is why she always says “I wanna be your end game” and not “I am your end game”. It sounds so much like a convo you would have with a guy like Matty that you can’t shake. Ya know? Like, we can’t, I don’t wanna end up missing you, I don’t wanna hurt you, I don’t want to be an ex you don’t wanna see someday, I don’t want to play… I know rep is a joe album, but if she started writing two years before (2015) then there could be songs that are Matty coded. Especially since he was a big presence in her timeline right after 1989.

Erica

Right 😄 you know she always calls mom when shit goes wrong. “And here’s to my mama, has to listen to all this drama”

Ella

I’ve seen suggestions that it could be about miscarriage and baby loss. As soon as I linked it to that I can’t imagine it being about anything else, it just makes perfect sense. Not necessarily meaning it’s her own experience, but perhaps an experience of a friend that she’s writing from the perspective of?

Erica

I’m guessing it seems like it’s about joe since he wrote it with her.

Amy Versprille

I think High Fidelity could just be a fantasy song - maybe she was dreaming of having an affair - sister song to guilty as sin

Amy Versprille

In Practical Magic they say blood on the moon means danger is coming

Sammi

Would love you guys to touch on the “error 321” “red herring” that came with the ttpd announcement- like yes rep was a red herring for ttpd… but I feel like she wrote all the songs where they could be about either man as a red herring / to throw us off? Idk I’d love y’all to touch on this.

Sammi

In addition… the glitch on the Spotify background linking glitch to wildest dreams… any chance wildest dreams could be a Matty song??

Sammi

YES! I am terrified for those vaults. I keep these longings locked in lowercase inside a vault… what songs on rep, folklore, and evermore are about him/were written and not released?

JentaSarabia

the denial about maroon being about Matty is SO funny to me hahaha it's so obviously about Matty SO OBVIOUS

Andrea

god girls hahaha I refuse to believe pre-midnights songs are abt that man... they rekindled during the midnights recording sessions, and also... let's not forget this woman was OBSESSED with Joe hahah like I LOVE hearing you talk and dissect every lyric, but also we need to actually be serious, not every song can be aabt that man 😂😂😂😂😂 (OBVS just my opinion, I still LOVE hearing your opinions and thoughts even tho if they dont align with mine 🫶🏼)

Jenn Hamel

I feel like I’m not usually so blunt but BLUNTLY: EMILY GET OVER IT, MAROON IS ABOUT MATTY, YOU SOUND SILLY ARGUING WITH BONNY ABOUT IT 😂

JentaSarabia

How much will you hate me if I say that I think Cruel Summer is about Matty, too? :) :) :) yes, I've started to refathom every song since rep and it's oainfulllll

Rebecca

Thank you ladies for doing this video, love it! I cannot wait for you to dive into folklore and evermore...much to my dismay quite a few of the songs on these albums are MH coded, curious to see what you ladies think. I'm of the opinion that some songs are about more than one person, hence that is why we often say, "this song can be so confusing" because that was her intention, perhaps. Perfect example is how one of you thinks Maroon is about Matty and the other thinks it's about Jake - it could be about both, perhaps? This song, when I first heard it, was very confusing and hard to decipher but after TTPD it was clear to me that it's about Matty, so maybe this isn't the best example. Just a thought! Thank you!

JentaSarabia

I'm just live reacting at this point but I'm SORRY I have such strong opinions about this. Glitch and Snow on the Beach are Matty songs. SOTB the most obvious one since all space - related metaphors are Matty.

Erika B

my interpretation of “carnations you had thought were roses” is very different is very different from yours because on first listen what I thought of is that carnations are more resilient than roses which wilt faster. She could mean that what they thought would be a fling and be over quickly (rose) has actually lasted longer than intended (carnation). Symbolically carnations can represent friendship while roses typically represent love (though very color dependent) so that could be an additional meaning that they thought they would find love but instead found friendship in each other

Erika B

I’m a carnation girlie so I don’t like the slander that carnations are cheap or represent a fake love 😅 hence my positive spin

Abby

I think high fidelity is about Calvin Harris but I think it’s more ABOUT her reflecting on her patterns especially now that she wants to cheat again, you know?

Laura R

Sweet Nothing is an interesting one because of the Paul & Linda McCartney inspo. "I wrote a poem; you say 'what a mind'" is an interaction between Paul and Linda that Paul spoke about in an interview. I've always taken Sweet Nothing to be a positive song about finding solace and relief from the world in your partner. I wonder if Taylor had that inspiration from Paul and Linda and recognized in that either something she had previously felt with Joe and wanted back or a reality she could see with Joe if she could be okay with the less public lifestyle he wanted. The whole "everyone's pushing shoving; you're in the kitchen humming" feels like an allusion to how loud and horrifying the political landscape (with a sprinkling of industry bullshit) is as well as how the public often wants her to speak out more on this or that (hence "the voices that implore 'you should be doing more' to you I can admit that I'm just too soft for all of it"). I can see how "all that you ever wanted from me was sweet nothing" could have a negative patina to it, and that may be a layer in there; but the inspiration originating from this pure moment between Paul and Linda McCartney has always made me feel like, at least parts of the time in the song, "sweet nothing" is positive to her.

Marla Lee

Maroon is NOT about Jake G. Emily, you keep saying RED is a breakup song about Jake. She’s moved on about that guy. I do agree than it could be either Marty or Joe. Personally, am leaning more towards Matty. Especially when she says: “ I see you everyday now”.

Ashley Grady

The only thing I haven’t seen mentioned as much about Maroon is the line “your roommate’s cheap ass…” There is NO WAY Jake had a damn roommate when they were together. 😂😂😂

Ashley Grady

Didn’t she write The Great War with Aaron after the Grammys in early 2021 (along with WCS and Paris)?

Jill

loved this refathoming! could watch you two talk about taylor swift songs all day

Akchita S.

Honestly, I don't think Maroon is a Jake or a Matty song. To me, it's a feeling song more than anything. I think it's taking the concert of Red, the song *and* the album, and making it into a darker, more mature situation. Maroon feels like a personification of "mosaic broken hearts." All Too Well is one hell of a legacy to leave (as we see in The Manuscript) but clearly so is her relationship with Matty. Also, nothing can convince me that Long Story Short is about anyone other than Joe because there are so many callbacks to reputation and Lover and the reputation era. While Matty was clearly so impactful, I don't think it automatically means every song in the past could be about him. I also think she re-claimed Glitch for Travis because she played Glitch x Everything Has Changed (Lyon night 2 piano) and that felt like a Travis coded song (she also did The Prophecy x Long Story Short that same weekend.

Geneva

That's the line I keep returning to! I was like how are they not mentioning this?!

Shannon

I also love carnations! They live for like 2 weeks! Roses die so fast.

Shannon

Taylor and Matty didn’t meet until after 1989 was released.

Shannon

They didn’t meet until after 1989 was released.

Cat Tulo

I always thought “I see you everyday now” was like “I see you in my mind because I’m seeing these memories so vividly”. Like she was distancing from Joe and now she keeps replaying the memories with Matty. It ties into “I wake with your memory over me”, like she can’t escape thinking about him. Which ALSO ties into Guilty As Sin. She was def “seeing him everyday” in her fantasies 🤠

Cat Tulo

are we also ready to acknowledge that “the 1” is literally about matty?? probably many others on folklore/evermore too 😭

Shannon

I still think Question is about Harry! It connects to the 1989 vault tracks! “did you leave her house in the middle of the night” — “why’d you whisper in the dark just to leave me in night? now your silence has me screaming” The melody of “good girl, sad boy, big city, wrong choices” sounds a lot like Keep Driving, which I think is about Taylor. And he’s asking a question!! Should we just keep driving? Which ties into all the car metaphors on 1989 Can I ask you a question? Are we out of the woods? Why’d you have to lead me on? Twist the knife? Is it over now? .. all questions!! Maybe it’s possible matty is “weaved” into the song, though I’m still not entirely sure what she even means by that. And like she didn’t have the sample ootw they could have done anything!!!! Also I think Maroon is Matty.

Mercedes

While TTPD def shows how impactful the short relationship with Matty was, I don’t think that it means that those feelings were *so* strong the entire time they weren’t together. I just don’t think that I can see Glitch as a Matty song - to me it’s always been “I hate accidents except when we went from friends to this” as a full song. Committing to a relationship with Joe was an “accident” aka a glitch. Plus the 6 year blackout *not* being about Joe is just too weird to me - how is her time apart from Matty only 6 years, when they were talking/ around each other starting in 2014? Plus the word choice of blackout just works well with a glitch and doesn’t necessarily mean “nothing was going on” to me Maroon is definitely more confusing but I still see so many callbacks to the Red era…Plus, Taylor herself has mentioned that she will think of lyrics or words that she wants to use in songs and hold onto them until she finds the right song, even if year later, so referencing maroon in Chloe et al. doesn’t have to mean they’re about the same person (“casually cruel” in MPF and ATW is a perfect example of that). But Taylor has def confirmed that she and Jake had a lot of back and forth (the WANEGBT video has so many references to that relationship, including ~the scarf~).

Mercedes

But I do think that it makes a lot of sense for Joe and Taylor to have gone back and forth, maybe even multiple times in their relationship! Taylor wrote so many songs seeming insecure about their future that it wouldn’t be surprising. But she also said that she wrote every TTPD song after turning in Midnights so for songs like Guilty as Sin to exist, I think Taylor and Joe were still definitely together for most, if not all of 2022. I also agree that I don’t think Matty and Taylor did anything in any break she might’ve had with Joe - the magnitude of her feelings in TTPD make me think that she would not have let go of Matty if she “had” him, even if mourning the relationship with Joe

Gulce Akpinar

She sang Maroon so much as a surprise song and that fact makes me think it is *not* about Jake.

Laura George

“I was supposed to Sweat you out” in glitch is so interesting because there is an American slang for sweating someone that means you are pining for them sexually.

JentaSarabia

OBVIOUSLY she rekindled with M during the pandemic are you kiddingGGG?!

Esther Michaut

YES !!! can't wait for the re-fathoming of them

JentaSarabia

I would love to hear you guys' refathoming of the long pond session part where they're talking about the love Triangle and the slightly awkward moment where Taylor says in her mind, James and Betty end up together and Jack looks genuinely surprised / poking fun of her for saying that. 👀 What does it mean??!!

JentaSarabia

The kind of desperate / messy undertones in Hits Different really are giving Matty, too. Remember: she was checked out of the relationship with Joe for a loooong time.

Hannah Grace

I just cant help thinking throughout this if joe listened to this album

Andrea

idk i just feel like connecting so many lyrics to be about matty feels a bit forced, like the fact that she went back to matty was a clear sign that she felt completely bored and sad with Joe, not bc she'd been pinning over him since 2014 (OBVS just my opinion, I still LOVE hearing your opinions and thoughts even tho if they dont align with mine 🫶🏼)

monika

That one is curious to me too! I kinda thought first hearing it it is about loss (like loss of life) of a dear person, but the chorus made me instantly think it is about a miscarriage (I'm never gonna meet what could've been, would've been, should've been you). Also, some other lyrics fit that narrative for me: "salt streams out my eyes and into my ears" - could mean she is laying down like afer a procedure (but could also mean she is laying in bed crying about sth in general), "it's all over now, all out to sea" - like it is washed away.. Just my theory of course, also I am not sure wether it is her or a friend going through this, if it happens to be about what I think it is about.

JentaSarabia

I truly believe that The One is about Matty, which kinda confirms that she had been pining over him for a long time. They had this young love, never really getting together, and I do think they've reconnected during lockdown (to me, guilty as sin might even be about 2020-2021)

Dylan

I don’t agree with the bejeweled lyric interpretation - I don’t think she is saying he’s not in her top 5, but rather she’s giving him top tier prioritization and you shouldn’t do that for anyone - except that’s only something you should do for your top 5.

Nadia Thew

I was listening to a podcast the other day that theorized that most of Sweet Nothing is actually a song from Joe’/ perspective on their relationship. He wrote some of that song so it makes sense that it might be from his view on the relationship. “Does it ever miss Wicklow sometimes” Wicklow is a smallllll city near Dublin that most people (especially those who aren’t Irish) wouldn’t even know about, but Joe was working there and as an English person being in Dublin would absolutely know Wicklow. “Outside they’re push and shovin’, you’re in the kitchen humming” We know Joe had a disdain for the outside world and it’s harshness. And it makes more sense for Taylor to be the one in the kitchen humming. “And smooth-talkin' hucksters out glad-handin' each other And the voices that implore, "You should be doin' more" To you, I can admit that I'm just too soft for all of it” To me this is like Joe being at a big industry party and people are talking with him about his career and saying he should be doing more…. no one in the industry is telling Taylor to do MORE, and we know she isn’t too soft for it… she wants to be BEJEWELED, the whole problem with their relationship revolves around Joe being to soft for the life Taylor leads, so it make more sense that that line is from his perspective. Finally, “On the way home, I wrote a poem You say, "What a mind" This happens all the time” We know Taylor was fascinated by Joes mind and what he came up with, they worked together! So I feel like it makes more sense for Taylor to be the one saying “what a mind” to him. Idk…. I just feel like this makes more sense in the context of the song. Taylor didn’t want anything from Joe at the beginning. Then you’re losing me is saying do something babe! And the tables turn and it’s stops working. I don’t necessarily think the whole song is from his pov but I definitely think some of it is!

Alice Phillips

Hey girls! When you do Evermore breakdown it might be helpful to revisit the Zane Lowe interview. She says several times that she didn’t want to write about reality in case it ended up in tabloids - I think keeping her and Joe’s relationship problems (and keeping them private) is a central motivation for the “story telling” angle she leaned into. Ironically, it allowed her the freedom to be even more honest

Hanna Kulla

it’s crazy to me that they wrote „sweet nothing“ together..

Gina Gould

Someone told me that if you look at the color blue (Joe) through rose colored glasses, it makes a lavender haze

Emelie

Right!!

Emelie

So interesting! Also considering which songs of evermore/folklore they wrote together

TiffK83

Please fathom Snow on the Beach as a prequel to Down Bad

Allie

Denial being Snow on The Beach makes perfect sense as she made this playlist before the release of TTPD. Snow on The Beach was midnights daydreaming about what they had, his starry eyes, can it really be true? And it was denial all along she now knows (at the time of TTPD release) it was counterfeit with MH

Sam

Has anyone seen more Joe Alwyn the past few months than ever before?! Like runway shows, magazine interviews, photo shoots, paparazzi like wtf

Allie

This refathoming of Snow on the Beach is making me even more obsessive

Jazmín Bicego

Maroon being a lyric in Chloe et al makes me 99% sure it is a song about realizing no matter how much time has passed she always felt like Matty was her home. also i am SO looking forward the re-fathoming of folklore and evermore because there are so many lyric parallels to TTPD i am losing my MIND i feel she was so inspired by the feeling of longing for Matty and fantasizing about him - the 1, illicit affairs, gold rush, ivy, cowboy like me, right where you left me.

Leah Rose

Same, I think, (and I hate to use this term but it's the best one I can think of) there is a little bit of a revisionist history going on. Let's not forget these playlists were created AFTER people started going on with the whole five stages of grief thing. I don't think it was an original plan. It was a capitalization on viral moment. Plus I see Denial not the way they are phrasing. It's Denial because she's trying to convince herself she still feels this strongly for Joe when actually her feelings are fading away, not Denial that she's saying the songs are about Joe when in reality she's writing about Matty. Glitch's timeline and phrasing are exactly about Joe. The 2190 days of their love blackout is literally 6 years and they were together for just a little bit over that by the time they broke up so timeline wise it literally is about Joe lol. Taylor and Joe were absolutely still together as of February 2023, they were out together buying furniture. I definitely think they were off and on at some points and really thought they were going to break up but (there's evidence of this as early as False God in 2019) but nah, I don't think she's been pining for Matty the entirety of their relationship lol.

Leah Rose

Yes! This is correct! Aaron confirms this in the Broken Record podcast.

Michaela

Sweet nothing makes me think of the line in fresh out the slammer: ‘my friends tried but I wouldn’t hear it, watched me daily disappearing for just one glimpse of his smile’. Her always running home to Joe’s sweet nothings, despite what’s being said ‘out there’

Juliana Martinez

GUYS THE FRESH OUT THE SLAMMER X SNOW ON THE BEACH MASHUP. hello 😭😭😭

Shannon

It’s because he’s in The Brutalist and it’s award season (he’s doing promo)

Cassidy

Hey guys! I love your videos and interpretations, so I just want to first say take all of my thoughts with a grain of salt but I do have some disagreements. Sorry this is so long! Maroon: Though I also am super cloudy on who this is about, I am curious why you didn't even consider Harry. Considering how New York-coded he is, the on-and-off relationship they had, the slow breakdown, that video of them dancing at karaoke, and the fact that he does have some songs on Red, I feel like it's a strong possibility. Snow on the Beach: I really just can't not say that it is about Joe. Taylor said that this song is about falling in love with someone at the same time that they fall in love with you, and because of her uncertainty surrounding Matty and how he feels, especially at the time of Midnights, I just feel like it's absolutely about Joe. It feels so reputation coded in that it is delicate and it is unexpected but it's also perfect. I feel like she wrote this song about when they fell in love to try and remind her of how perfect that felt, putting it in the denial playlist. And, also, I agree with Emily that the beginning is so long story short coded, which I believe is also absolutely about Joe. Question...?: Fun fact, I was there when she sang Question...? (which I love so much, so I was excited). But I could take it as Matty or Harry. I think it's funny to imagine that it is about Harry with Matty being the "dickhead guy." However, I agree that it might be about Matty too, but the New Years Eve kiss makes me lean towards Harry. Bejeweled: I just want to say that I definitely think it is about Joe, but I think it's wrong to completely ignore the Calvin Harris stuff. I think that she got to a point with Joe that reminded her of how she felt with Calvin at the end of the their relationship and she was kind of like "oh my God, not again, I'm so done with this," and you can hear that in her tone throughout the song. So I definitely think it's about Joe, but I think there is a Calvin influence there. Labyrinth: Such a difficult song to entirely understand, but I agree that it is probably about Matty. That being said, it pushes me to believe that Snow on the Beach is about Joe even more. Because Labyrinth is presumably about falling for Matty while still with Joe, it is so complicated and confusing for her, which makes the simplicity in the feeling of Snow on the Beach feel more Joe coded. Glitch: ABSOLUTELY about Joe to me. I will never think otherwise. The beginning (we were supposed to be just friends) is exactly the vibe of their first summer like Cruel Summer and Cornelia Street and even Gorgeous. The fact that 2,190 days is exactly six years alone tells me it is about Joe, and the lyric is "it's been 2,190 days of OUR love blackout". Also contributes to why Paris and Glitch weren't on that version of Midnights with You're Losing Me. Hits Different: Also about Joe to me. It completely explains to me why she got back together with Joe (because I do think a breakup happened) because breaking up was harder than she thought. I also think now is a good time for me to say that I think that My Boy Only Breaks His Favorite Toys and The Black Dog are both about Joe. I know you guys disagree and I definitely understand, but I'm just so convinced, which I can go into another time lol. My thoughts on the timelines: High Infidelity + WCS (a reminder of shitty men and her feelings at the time of Calvin) --> her thinking about her past with songs like Midnight Rain, Snow On The Beach, Question...?, and maybe Maroon (trying to weigh her feelings for Joe and her past relationships) --> Bejeweled --> You're Losing Me (they break up) --> Hits Different (it's harder than she thought) --> The Great War (they get back together) --> Paris + Glitch + Karma (things are good when they immediately get back together) --> Lavender Haze + Sweet Nothing (trying to make it be as good as it was) --> Anti-Hero (mad at herself) --> You're On Your Own, Kid (really feeling alone) --> Labyrinth (confused once again with Matty) --> Dear Reader (falling apart) Mastermind and Bigger Thank The Whole Sky could fit in wherever Anyways, I hope you see this and let me know your thoughts!

Brianna Fox

Yes! And the “swirled you into all of my poems” from Fresh Out The Slammer makes me think she’s been thinking about him all of these years

Kate Reinwald

I just had a thought- what if the theme of Midnight Era outfits was retro because the albums theme is RETROSPECT. I’m unwell.

skizzo

Let's not forget she mashed up Sweet Nothing with Hoax, says it all

skizzo

which links to Guilty As Sin so well

skizzo

and she was already living in denial back then

Fede

yes 😂. sometimes I'll be listening to Bejeweled and just think like??? what did he make of that song?! *insert couldn't be me gif*

Hayley

Taylor told Matty (and let’s be honest all of us) that Cardigan was about him on stage at the Eras tour. So we know this to be true. “But I knew you, dancin’ in your Levi’s, drunk under a streetlight”, brings me directly to Maroon. “The one I was dancin’ with In New York no shoes looked up at the sky and it was maroon” Both lyrics imply that they were dancing outside at night, possibly after drinking. There are also lyrics in cardigan that suggest they were young when this happened, (during 1989 era) and they were trying to keep it from the public. Lyrics like, “To kiss in cars and downtown bars was all we needed”, “I knew you, playing ‘hide and seek’ and giving me your weekends”, “Cause I knew everything when I was young” It wasn’t just a fling back then. But he wasn’t ready for it so he “left like a father” by “stepping on the last train, marked her like a blood stain”… a maroon blood stain. 💔

Riley H

The Great War continues to mess me up because that's was what they called World War 1 before World War 2 happened. So in my head they had this big fight that they recovered from and were looking back on it like "Oh that was bad, but we're all good now" without knowing that there was another war just around the corner. It reminded me of this quote, referring to the 20 years of peace between WW 1 and 2: "This is not a peace. It is an armistice" (a pause of active hostilities). I think it refers to the first big fight (or breakup) that they had, but it wasn't the last

Monique New

How she went from hits different to so long London: for me it’s key then to understand labyrinth as timeline being close after hits different. It’s how they got back together. The plane was going down and he turned it around. It only hurts this much right now Was what I was thinking the whole time Breathe in, breathe through Breathe deep, breathe out I'll be getting over you my whole life You know how scared I am of elevators Never trust it if it rises fast It can't last Uh oh, I'm falling in love Oh no, I'm falling in love again Oh, I'm falling in love I thought the plane was going down How'd you turn it right around It only feels this raw right now Lost in the labyrinth of my mind Break up, break free, break through, break down You would break your back to make me break a smile You know how much I hate that everybody just expects me to bounce back Just like that

Luz Meneses

Guys hate to say this but I think more songs than we know are about Matty. Snow on the beach is down bad part 1!! Flying sources and all the sky theme is so db coded… also please please go in this rabbit hole with me and watch casually unperturbed theory on YouTube please please! So much makes more sense seeing all throug that pov it will blow your mind!!!!

Shan

I loved this so much but Bonny.. when you came in with that quick ‘leave that for the evermore refathoming’ thing I couldn’t focus for a few minutes because I’ve been WAITING for that 🥹🥹🥹

angel (plnkblue)

So I actually have a whole fathoming/narrative playlist centered around Glitch (full breakdown and link here if anyone wants to spiral with me lmao https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wW4XgqMQ1suFg8KgbJfsLh6VRlBfyB8CnjOISGpXF6k/edit?usp=sharing), and ultimately I was under the impression that Glitch is about her fathoming what you guys alluded to in the discussion regarding Reputation and the beginnings of her and Joe's relationship, which is that the inherent foundation upon which they built their relationship was flawed from the start. She was in a bad place and looked to him for safety and comfort and support in isolation, and as you mentioned, he loved her when it seemed like nobody else did. There was genuine affection formed there, but it also meant that neither of them got to fall in love with each other on an honest level. And though issues may have begun to spring up later in regards to that, other things reared their head that prolonged their relationship and her inability to confront the underlying issues (the masters debacle sending her back into a bad place, the pandemic forcing prolonged isolation and cancelling her tours, etc). In Glitch, Taylor is basically stating outright what she's been alluding to in Lavender Haze, Sweet Nothing, etc; she KNOWS their relationship is doomed, has been doomed from the start, but she either will not or can not leave of her own accord because of how much has been invested into the relationship time-wise and energy-wise, and also because, on some level, the fact that it has been able to last for so long DESPITE being built on a fragile foundation is something that fascinates her. It makes it feels like this relationship is truly fated, because if it hasn't horribly imploded, maybe it can be mended properly and made into something stronger. "I thought we had no chance, and that's romance." There's also the fact that, in terms of an overall "timeline," everything that happened with Joe was never anticipated or planned, and differed strongly from how many of her past relationships played out. The lyric "I was supposed to sweat you out in search of glorious happenings of happenstance on someone else's playground, but it's been 2,190 days of our love blackout" indicates how unexpected he was in her life. Maybe, if something like COSOSOM alludes to an almost decade-old fling with Matty like y'all mentioned, she genuinely did want to pursue something with him back in that 1989 era, but then the Reputation Of It All happened and her life and plans were thrown off course. Ultimately, this is what Glitch is talking about, which is why I still consider it to be about fathoming her relationship with Joe and trying to make sense of why she stayed despite feeling so many types of bad over the years. Here's the little excerpt from that document that specifically pertains to my feelings on Glitch: There is something extremely Snow On The Beach-y about this song, which we can defer from one portion of the Midnights prologue: "Why can't you sleep? Maybe you lie awake in the aftershock of falling headlong into a connection that feels like some surreal, cataclysmic event. Like spontaneous combustion, or snow falling on a tropical beach. A lavender haze crush that feels like the crash of a wave." The implications here are interesting, because they intertwine feelings of fascination and beauty with images of destruction or uncanniness. Snow falling on a tropical beach is beautiful, but it's also creates this feeling in the pit of your stomach that something is deeply wrong. Because why is it cold enough in the tropics for snow to fall on the beach? This is the idea being presented within Glitch: that despite this love being so intense and passionate and magnetic, there is something inherently flawed and potentially harmful about its nature. We were supposed to just be friends, I was supposed to go along and stay in situationships and remain an "adventurer in pursuit of rapturous thrill," but you came along and wrecked my plans. That's my man. It's now been 2,190 days of us being together. My system is breaking down. It was never supposed to be like this. There's been a glitch. But also… I'm not even sorry. I thought we had no chance, and that's romance. Let's dance. There is a clear acknowledgement of the inherent "wrongness" of the relationship, yet no real desire to escape it quite yet. (I'd written this general breakdown and analysis of Glitch like 48 hours before TTPD dropped, so it wasn't approached with any of that album's hindsight, but my thoughts overall haven't changed.)

Mia Leone

Thank you so much for this fathoming. We have all been trying to do this since TTPD came out but it was so great to hear some of our theories confirmed and that we aren’t crazy. Midnights is still THE album!!!! On a side note to one of your conversations- she does reference affairs in How did it End- fell victim to interlopers glances-

Nick S

!! And in So Long, London: "My friends said it isn't right to be scared, everyday of a love affair."

Michelle

Just an opinion and I’m unsure if it’s just me - but any time Bonny talks about Joe it feels like she really doesn’t like him, and never recognises any of his good traits? Emily try’s to bring up the good parts about him, but Bonny normally goes back to making it something bad? I’m not saying Joe is perfect, because no one is and he clearly struggled with his mental health. But on the list of Taylor’s boyfriends, I think he’s one of her better partners who helped her through her worst moments and has always been respectful of her even after the breakup. I think they were really well suited in private, but they ended up realising they weren’t compatible the more Taylor wanted to be in the spotlight🤷🏼‍♀️ Which is why it was so tough to end the relationship because they could’ve worked so well if she didn’t want to be the biggest pop star. Love you girls very much, this is just something I’ve noticed over a few videos🫶🏼

Renee S Smith

Why all this idolization of a guy that would subject another person to "quiet resentment".

Michelle

It’s not idolising, it’s looking at both the good and bad, which is important given there was clearly good in the 6 years. Taylor has written songs where she admitted she’s been in the wrong in their relationship too? Like in Afterglow and The Great War which both reference her self sabotage in the relationship blaming him for things he didn’t do. I don’t think it’s unrealistic to think that everything bad in their relationship wasn’t caused by him🤷🏼‍♀️

Jennifer Sweeney

DESPERATE for folklore/evermore re-fathoming!! It's all I think about when you break down TTPD songs. There is simply so much to say please can we talk about CARDIGAN help!!

Catherine (YOYOK stan)

Cannot wait for the Folklore and evermore refathomings! I am currently listening to the 1 and cardigans and these connect to ttpd so well! As well as songs in midnights help! Could matty be behind all of this, the smoke imageries, Peter connections, the blood stain, it’s too much and it’s only been two songs so far I’ve relistened to with this perspective. 👀☕️ I need hours of this when you guys relisten to the albums . Help!!

Catherine (YOYOK stan)

And I know Taylor had that moment on stage where she declared basically that cardigan is about Matty! There is so much we literally don’t know so wild!

Meghan Carty

I was always confused by the opening lines of High Infidelity until TTPD. “Lock broken” ties so well to Fresh Out the Slammer and Guilty as Sin and “Slur spoken” reminds me of The Bolter (“he’ll call her a whore”). I’m not sure if it’s based on true infidelity she’s committed, or more of a fantasy ala Guilty As Sin, imagining breaking free of her relationship to be with Matty, who I think we know she may have had in mind while writing folklore/evermore with the love triangle songs (if not earlier). There are also lines like the April 29th and freeloading ones that seem to point to Joe/Calvin/Tom situation though. SOOOO, my theory is that the title High Infidelity is clearly inspired by High Fidelity, the novel and subsequent movie and TV adaptations (the recent TV one starred Zoe Kravitz!!!!), and the plot of those is the main character recounting their most recent breakups to figure out what’s been going wrong. I think that could indicate that the song, like The Bolter, is less about a particular relationship, and is more about a pattern she very clearly identifies in herself, where she gets bored or feels stuck and sorta moves on before completely ending things.

Jordan

Karma is personified. She’s literally saying Karma itself is her boyfriend. Not Joe. Karma - as if it were a person. Genius, genius song.

Alice Hannah

I thought this too! So many references to the sky / flying etc

Mae

I can’t believe they never brought up Harry Styles for Maroon lol (I do think it’s about Matty but Harry is definitely the second strongest candidate imo)

Kellie Mahoney

I think Maroon is very likely about multiple relationships, there are too many callbacks that reference multiple people. I’m fairly certain there’s a paparazzi picture where she has a hickey and that was during the Harry Styles period (the mark they saw on my collarbone). Dancing with in New York could reference Jake, Joe, or even Tom. Rust that grew between phones could reference Joe, Harry (the vault tracks), or Matty. Home could reference Joe or Matty

Paweł

I feel like after folklore and evermore, her writing changed. She started writing more often about one thing, one person, one story. After those albums, she realized that she could write something that doesn’t seem autobiographical but actually is. She was talking about how writing songs makes her feel happy, and I believe that by writing songs in this new way, she can achieve that effect without saying too much. I can see her having a hook in her notes when she was with Joe, way before she got back together with Matty, but this idea became a song only later. I can picture her just writing a song title—"My Boy Only Breaks His Favorite Toys"—and years later turning it into a full song. She always had this need to protect Joe—that’s one of the reasons why we got folklore, evermore, and Midnights. I’m sure that Maroon became a song after re-recording Red, simply because she could go back there, be her younger self for a moment, and rethink some things. She even said in the manuscript that looking back might be the only way to look forward.

hauntedwillow27

i also think “my hand was the one you reached for” reminds me of “and then you squeeze my hand as i’m about to leave” so maybe it could just be that bare minimum effort like she touches on in renegade, not that he’s trying his best to rekindle things

CamilleMG

I know it's not popular discourse but I believe we shouldn't forgetto acknowledge how the reaction of the fandom may have impacted her relationship with Matty Healy. Seems like we all just jumped in the bandwagon that he is the ultimate bad guy with bad intentions from the start (which I do not believe 100%) and we are forgetting a HUGE chunk of the story.

Blake Lindsay

I think we need to do a refathoming of the Alcott

Hayley

BONNYYY no the fact that long story short could be a Matty song is actually rearranging the brain cells… I realized something she does is the 3rd verse. It’s like she’s talking to Joe in the first and second verse and then she says “and HE’S passing by, rare as the glimmer of a comet in the sky And he feels like HOME, if the shoe fits walk in it everywhere you go” She switches the lyric from “you” (Joe) to “he” (Matty) which makes me think that yes Joe was there for her through the worst time in her life in the first half of the song, but soon enough their relationship was in turmoil and that’s when Matty “passed by”. Help.

Betsa Collins

Has anyone fathomed that the voice at the beginning of Labyrinth is Taylor and Matty is the ‘oh’ at the end of the phrase. It’s definitely his little English voice. Maybe a song he was meant to work on but didn’t?

Samm Delamoneda

I think when you have your own Matty Healy it’s much easier to see him in her songs. If you have been their you don’t see the connections

Rhonda

Hits Different is Matty Healy!!! Then to start off Fortnight with” they forgot to come and get me” Stop it!!!! ICDIWABH mentions finding crucial evidence and this one finding artifacts and crying over a hat. Can you picture Joe…. in a club …having fun ….😳and Taylor crying and getting drunk and puking in the street…in her folklore nightgown….nobody holding her hair because it’s braided like my great granny….Not in a million years!!

Kellie Mahoney

I really think Glitch is about the beginning of Joe and Taylor’s relationship, if you listen to song on Reputation or even Cruel Summer you know that she did not think their relationship was going to work. I do think a lot more of Midnights is about Joe than people are willing to believe because of the Matty thing

Hayley

I think a lot more of reputation is about Matty than we think 🫣 Which would actually make sense because her and Matty’s relationship was still fresh in her mind while making rep. The Dancing with our hands tied bridge: “If I could dance with you again” Cruel Summer is looking more Matty coded as well now: “Bad bad boy shiny toy with a price” “I’m always waiting for you to be waiting below” 🫠

Kelly Prang

I thought it was "every day of a love affair" as in, each and every day during their relationship she was scared.

Kelly Prang

I always thought Bigger than the Whole Sky is about a miscarriage-- the beginning (background) to me sounds like an ultrasound, but no heartbeat. I picture the subject lying down for an ultrasound crying with tears running into her ears. I know a friend of Taylor has had a miscarriage (I can't recall which friend but I know one of her long time friends had an Instagram post about her pregnancy loss back in 2021 or 2022?), so I wondered if this song was similar to Happiness- believed to be written about Abigail's experience with a divorce, and this song was written about the experience of one of Taylor's friends

Jennifer Maureen

I always took the Great War as being about an outside fight she went through - like reputation days, beginning of their relationship when everything with kanye and scooter, etc. Joe was there for her and if they as a couple, could survive that, they could last.

Jennifer Maureen

I think she realizes NOW that what she and Matty had wasn't real and he didn't actually know her, but she didn't know any of that then. I believe she used to 100% believe he was her soulmate because that's what he wanted her to believe and they maybe didn't actually know each other all that well. That's why the delulu playlist even exists.

Staci DaSilva

I think Maroon is a composite sketch. It’s about almost every breakup she’s been through. Every love feels red but looking back it’s maroon. That’s the only way I can fathom it because it doesn’t line up perfectly for anyone specific.

Jordan

I think it’s interesting that Fresh OTS and Florida!!! Were written in Dec 2022

Mads

"Now you're running down the hallway"/ "I heard your key turn in the door, down the hallway"/ "standing hollow eyed in the hallway"=all references to Joe/the falling apart of their relationship in my opinion! Also Joe would totally have had roommates when they first got together-he wasn't that successful yet 😂

Mads

I also think it makes sense that the lyrics of Maroon was so vague & hard to pin down-she didn't want to be too obvious w/ the public during this time when her and Joe were on and off.

Erin M

Another time line pinpoint (not really) Sweet Nothing was written after You’re Losing Me because YLM was written December 2021 and the lyric in Sweet Nothing “last July” it would need to be 2022 since we know they were in Whitlow July 2021.

Breezy Bumbles

That was A LOT for my little brain! I need charts and maps and strings with pins to connect all of this information. It’s so fascinating to try to figure out Taylor’s brain and what is actually happening.

Kelly M

I think this also explains why she played it so many times on the Eras Tour, similar to YOYOK, which we know is a walk through all of her eras.

Elizabeth

I also think its important to take another look at the lakes in the context of folklore and evermore if there is potential that those albums have hints to Matty in them... Will you girls ever react to any of The 1975 albums?

Mads

Taylor liked a tweet that quoted Paul McCartney pretty much saying exactly what she says in verse 2 of Sweet Nothing (writing a poem and his partner saying 'what a mind') this combined with the sound of the piano of this song has convinced me that this song is largely inspired by Paul & Linda McCartney/maybe wishing that's what she had with Joe

Mads

Mastermind is about US!!!!

sebastián

reading this comment section makes me feel like i’m alone here but trying to connect every single song and lyric to someone in her life is a bit…. much. sometimes i feel like people take everything so literally and forget that she is in fact a writer so she surely makes stylistic choices that don’t necessarily fit what happened perfectly…. that sometimes she could be writing about a feeling, that she could piece various stories together, that she can make up a line or two just because it works better in the story of the song and not bc thats how it happened. i have more opinions about this but like i said i think i’m alone here so i’ll just keep them 😭

Anjie Crow

I’m with you on Maroon, Bonny! The song never really made sense to me until Matty came back into her life. There’s no way Jake would have a bottle of cheap rose’, and he would never mistake carnations for roses. He’s too upper class for that. Matty, on the other hand, is not lol.

Staci DaSilva

Right!! Interesting point. I think it’s a song about general heartbreak. There are some moments of specificity because that’s how Taylor likes to write. Maybe there are details about a few different people from her past (the roommate’s cheap wine and the barefoot dancing in NY).

sebastián

seeing some people say that basically her whole discography since 1989 is about him has me shook to my core like come onnnnn what is happening

Elyse

I agree, not everything is about that man. Personally I don’t need a folklore/evermore Matty Healy fathoming because I don’t think it’s necessary. Plus it’s all pure speculation and we are just making her work about one man versus her feelings and lived experiences

sebastián

yep! also i honestly dislike the idea of people listening to her songs and just trying to connect the dots like its a murder mystery instead of appreciating it for the incredible masterpieces that they are and how that makes them feel about /their/ lives. of course i love her beyond words and her vulnerability makes me feel the sadness she’s felt, but when i listen to my favorite sad songs of hers im sorry but im not thinking of matty or joe or john or any other man 😭 im thinking about how her music is and always has been a companion for my own sadness (and happiness too)

Alison

I take a lot of the songs like Maroon, High Infidelity, etc. to be inspired by the way she was feeling about Joe but actually technically ABOUT past relationships. So maybe she wrote Maroon about Jake or even Matty but was inspired to even go there because she felt like things were falling apart with Joe. Same with High Infidelity, the lines about being stuck at the house and how it felt like the right thing at the time… that seems heavily influenced by how she felt during the pandemic with Joe but she’s writing it to relate back to the breakdown of her relationship with Calvin.

Erin M

In Lavender Haze you mention how it could be viewed as rose-colored glasses, which instantly made me think of Gold Rush from evermore and now I NEED an evermore re-fathoming

Chloe Amelia

nothing could have prepared me for the SNOW ON THE BEACH re-fathoming...holy fucking shit

Kristin Ranae

Omg! Maroon is 100% about Matty H. (In my opinion) it has to be. Love these videos. So much to fathom.

Alessa Hampel

I'm sure someone else has already said this, but the blood moon lyric in Glitch being a link back to Maroon also makes me think that "let's dance" is a link to Maroon as well. For me, the 'let's dance' has always felt a little bit random, but they were dancing under the sky that was maroon.

Kate Johnson

I think a theme of this album is different verses of one song are talking about different phases of her life- I think this is what Maroon is about and what YOYOK. Some of Maroon is Joe, some is other relationships. Like how each verse of YOYOK is a different phase of her life.

Kate Johnson

Agreed with this theory 1000%! Like YOYOK. Different verses are different relationships

ArielStormborn

Picking up my jaw off the floor because Bonnie is SAYING SOME THINGGSSSSS

Johanna M

Maroon might be a composite song, describing a feeling but relating it to multiple relationships. That's why it's hard to place. Although I believe it gives a Matty vibe. The rust between telephones and the rusting my sparkling summer in TPPD!

Roz Emma

Total speculation but I think maybe Joe and Taylor broke up briefly during north hemisphere summer 2019. When they broke up for good there was the quote "They've had rough patches before and always worked things out, so friends thought they would take some time apart but eventually come back together". If Taylor and Matty first met/hooked up/flirted late 2014, then Matty was in a relationship with Gabriella Brooks until they broke up north hemisphere summer 2019. Then Matty would have been available Summer 2019 which given TTPD context, I wonder might have made Taylor start to think about him and them again. June/July Joe's filming - maybe Taylor and Joe decide to take a break. Maybe August 2019 for a "fortnight" Taylor and Matty have a thing, before Matty then also starts to see FKA twigs. Taylor realises Matty was a "hoax" and her and Joe come back together and are strong together again in 2020 during the pandemic. I don't know! Thinking about these possible happenings gives me fathomings for folklore/TTPD that help them to land/make sense/relate.

Johanna M

Hit's different has such a 2010s and young energy that I always thought TS really went back into the past and maybe Hit's different is about the break up with Matty around 2014. He is the one that it took a decade to get over. It's really different this time.

Gemma

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but I don’t think The Great War is about Joe. I think it about the masters/re-recording situation and the relationship with the fans. Hence why you are struggling to place it in the timeline 💙

Ally ❤️

I feel like Glitch was about Joe… only because “stitches undone” in So Long London… I think it was the glitch stitch that was undone.

KyraB

I think so many of the songs on both Midnights and TTPD are not about one particular relationship. I think many of them draw inspiration from multiple relationships and the moments and feelings she had during them.

Lizz Keiper

Ahhh! I love this discussion! This is so what my mind sounds like when I am trying to fall asleep :D you two are therapy for my tortured brain!

Lizz Keiper

And we knew they would embroider things about their relationship, hopes and sorrys on things. Ahh!

Emilie

i think after tortured poets i saw "maroon" being about matty because i interpret the song "the manuscript" as being her way of saying "i could only get past through all of this (the breakup with matty) because i felt something very similar to this devastating heartbreak with jake when i wrote red and all too well" etc and that's why for me they are like sister albums. it's that lyric "the professor said to write what you know looking backwards might be the only way to look forward". she already KNEW this thing with matty was more intense than what happened to her and jake, because it was MAROON. other lyrics that make me think of the connections between the two relationships is how he left a typewriter at her apartment (like she left her scarf there at his sisters house). or "i've seen this episode and still loved the show" (i've lived something so risky - and maybe SHORT because it's not even a film, it's an EPISODE - before and it still made me feel so good once, so i'll do it again).

Jaclyn Loschiavo

I love how Bonny’s whole world view is in flux because of Taylor and Mattie. It’s like everything she ever accepted as true is now up for reevaluation

Emilie

oh god yes

Emilie

also like... i'm all ABOUT YOU. the 1975 literally have a song called about you???????

Emilie

also i think mastermind is about matty healy byeeeee

Mly

I think that in I Hate Here, it could function as a bridge or as what was happening between The Great War, Hits Different and Your Losing Me. I think, it's an assumption, that they fought and then Taylor begins to evaluate the situation of their relationship, but she can't say or write breakup songs in Midnights because they were already good, they were supposed to, so I Hate Here comes in and it also reminds me of the line from "I would've died for your sins." I think she was willing not to publish those songs but then since the relationship was already bad, she released them. Well, great video and my brain exploded with some songs, thanks for the video ❤️

Lily

Snow on the beach giving guilty as sin with the fake it til you make it til you do lmaooo

Alex Torrie

I saw someone say that Snow on the Beach is Down Bad part 1 with all the galactic and space references Snow on the beach is her kinda clocking Matty again and then down bad is her fully falling in her feelings

Brianna Fox

What if Cornelia Street isn’t about Joe and it’s actually about Matty? I think Dress could also be about Matty

Natalie

Wait why did the skip bigger than the whole sky, what's that song about?

Ana Clara

Ok so here's my theory about High Infidelity: I think is not only about Calvin. “he brought me back to life” could imply Matty’s reappearance when she was with Joe. I think the song explores emotional detachment as a form of infidelity, emphasizing how neglect and longing for someone else can be just as damaging as cheating.

Virginia

She swirled him (Matty) into all of her poemsssssss

Virginia

Matty reminded her that she was still Taylor Swift and for that I don’t actually hate him. I just deeply dislike him.

Virginia

I think that the gap between you’re losing me and them fully breaking up is the “I was a functioning alcoholic until nobody noticed my new aesthetic”

Virginia

Sweet nothing is a soft sweet diss track. Like he gave her nothing and he didn't want her to be herself. She tells him she wrote a poem and he says, "that's nice, dear". And this happens all the time?? Damn. That's so sad. Like she thinks he's a soft safe space until he turns into a cold castle.

Virginia

I think Joe made her feel like she was cheating because cheaters project. She had to remind herself in guilty as sin that she didn’t actually do anything wrong. She was at home. He was everywhere except home.

Virginia

I think glitch has an actual timeline in it too. And a blood moon is absolutely maroon.

Virginia

I also think that anything Joe is credited on is an argument that they had that she’s using in her work and he can’t be mad because he’s getting paid and it’s “just storytelling” to us.

Virginia

She mentions the “haze” in the great war. She got a sense she’d been betrayed? I think Hits Different is first, then The Great War and You’re Losing Me are two perspectives of the same fight and break, and then Lavender Haze and Sweet Nothing are happening at the same time. She gets injured and gaslit into staying and she then vows to always be his (Joe’s). Then she’s in shock and she feels numb for a while. She becomes a “functioning alcoholic” and meets Matty again while she’s high (Blue Nile is a strain of weed as well, btw) and we get High Infidelity.

Erica Olson

I thought Maroon was about Karlie Kloss — more of a friendship loss. Lips called home was more about conversation.

Kesha

Passing by unbeknownst to me - that’s from snow on the beach. Passing by gives me spaceship.. like down bad. Which is about Matty

Kesha

Playground in Glitch also reminds me of maybe my boy breaks his favorite toys in the theme of childlike playing

Brooke Noelle

I will always think Maroon is about Harry. The lyrical parallels between that song and some of BOTH of their past songs are too strong for me to think otherwise.

Debzie3

Have we ever thought about a potential link between glitch and maroon with the blood moon lit sky being…maroon? You killled me with this- I am unwell.

Brooke Noelle

I think Matty is actually the “dickhead guy” Taylor was with in Question and Harry saw them together. I think Matty might be the one Harry sings about when he references “him” in his Taylor-coded songs from his first solo album.

Gabriela Mariotto

saw a girl on tiktok talk about Question being the closure of a triangle of questions. The first being 'are we out of the woods yet?' the second "Is it over now?" and the final the urgent question she talks about in Question: if he regrets losing her. She goes on and on about it and now i can't unsee it, if you girls want to check it out her tiktok is @brittonrae

Ally ❤️

“Stars by the pocketful, flying in a dream” is giving Peter Pan, who gives Matt-man

Jasmine

i haven't got to the labyrinth section of the video yet so you might talk about this but i have to get this out now- 'i thought the plane was going down how'd you turn it right around' she thought her plane was going down back to the US after her breakup with Joe but Matty made her turn the plane right around back to the UK

Meagan

Downloaded and joined Patreon for this video and am sooo happy I did!!!! Very excited to be here and love you girls and your breakdowns

Ellen Blair

I think Jake was her Red and Matty was her Maroon because she felt that heartbreak even more deeply. 😬

izzy 🪷

Bonnie BANG ON about Maroon/Matty. She nailed every narrative & description. As a 1975 fan and Swiftie I love that you guys look at everything objectively. (I don't condone Matty - w the band it's mostly music, not lore/personality like it is with queen Tay). 💖

Momin Masood

You're Losing Me could have been written as the first song in the timeline - then The Great War later. "That was the night I nearly I lost you" as a reference to You're Losing Me moment of thinking this is over. Plus, YLM could be the instinctive "it's you're fault" song whereas TGW is a bigger, objective realization of her role in the breakup as well - also echoed in Anti-Hero as part of her insecurities and how they deeply affect the way she sees the world. Those insecurities could have been the thing that fed into the Joe vs. Matty situation in her head + all other issues surrounding TGW.

Nicole

For the Maroon lyrics, whether “you say” applied to the line about how’d we end up on the floor or your roommate’s cheapass screw top rosé was never clear to me. I wasn’t sure if it’s saying Taylor had a roommate or the person she’s singing about had a roommate. Either way it’s confusing!

Nicole

Could it be possible that she hooked up with Matty around the met gala time too?

Linda's World

Maroon is on my Top 5 Taylor songs ever, and the moment I heard TTPD and realized it was mainly about Matty, I totally reimagined Maroon with the new information. It actually helped me with why The Manuscript, which is so clearly about Jake, was the last song on an album about Matty and Joe. For me, it’s because Jake and Matty were her two biggest heartbreaks, and when the “professor” said “looking backwards might be the only way to move forward”, she had to go all the way back to the Jake situation and how it hurt her to come to terms with having left Joe and a dying relationship for the decade-old promise of Matty…which never materialized and killed her fantasy of being saved by her white horse (pun intended).

Laura

I've always thought Hits Different was not based on her own experiences, similar to DBATC. Maybe she liked the phrase "it hits different" which had just begun to be popular on fans' online comments, and felt inspired. Just think of You Belong With Me, a great example of how easily she was inspired to create a story out of a simple line (she has talked about this in interviews).

Rebecca Monish

Exactly, ignoring her friend's outside talk and running home to Joe's "sweet nothing's" to live in this "lavender haze" she wants to stay in because she doesn't want to face the reality 😢

Laura Donovan

Idk i feel like we are really trying to force matty and even joe places now which in some cases works but not all... I think maroon is still jake. As part of the concept album reflecting on all relationships. All too well is a real fucking legacy to leave

Jordan

Sweet like justice! Karma is a queen! Our delulu queen creates her own utopia! It’s how she can stitch so quickly from the mentality of the Prophecy to The Bolter, too. Ahhhh this superior human!

Breezy Bumbles

Random question: do you think that Jack would ever work with The 1975 again?

Enzo Reis

26:07 I think that Maroon is so fascinating because it's one of her most beautifully ambiguous song. And all Jake's, Joe's and Matty's perspectives for this song works. And it makes sense for me because Jake, Joe and Matty Healy are the three men that broke her heart the most. A prove of that it's that the three muses in TTPD are Matty, Joe and Jake with The Manuscript. Because I think Maroon (both the color and the song) is about the feeling of feeling Maroon; deeply heartbreak, decay, abandonment, imprisonment and the feeling of losing something you wanted to have worked out. What exactly do we find in these three relationships? deeply heartbreak, deterioration, abandonment, imprisonment and the feeling of losing something you wanted to have worked out. Maroon’s ambiguity and abstraction are intentional, because I think when she wrote Maroon, she was thinking about Maroon’s own feelings, which I mentioned above and in writing that feeling, I think the feeling itself evoked these three relationships and how she felt all of that in them. Because you can apply a lot of phrases very well to all three, for example: the roommate issue; could all three of them have a roommate and which one does that make sense for; in fact, Jake already had one. So yes, I think Maroon is intentionally addressing all the three relationships.

Enzo Reis

@Nicole it's Taylor saying it back to the guy. The guy has a roomate not her. Because he's saying: "how we ended on the floor anyway?".

Rebecca

I agree 💯! On multiple songs actually, not just Maroon.

Cassy

i disagree. that line is asking a question. implying that “you say” is in reference to the line about the roommates screw top rose after taylor asks how they ended up on the floor. i think an interesting possible connection is in ivy when she sings “and watch what we’ll become and drink my husbands wine”. i think in maroon she’s using “roommate” to replace “boyfriend” because let’s be real at this point joe probably did feel like more of a roommate.

Cassy

i honestly think she’s singing about both joe and matty on a lot of these songs as well as obviously other past muses as well. i think it was probably a very confusing time for her. for the past couple years she’d been fantasizing about leaving this dying relationship with joe and what it would be like to be with matty and finally she was in his space again (writing with each other) and so while writing songs that may have started out to be about joe she gets to thinking about matty and vice versa. therefore often saying things about and to both of them. which is why it can be confusing for listeners to agree on who she’s singing about. lavender haze for example i think at first glance is obviously mostly about joe but i think parts of it or even the concept of “lavender haze” could be about matty. for example the bridge screams matty to me. she could be saying talk your talk and go viral about matty. matty goes viral all the time for saying stupid shit! maybe she’s saying “f you to the public for wanting me to just settle with joe and be his bride i just want to stay in this lavender haze” (this situation with matty). i think it’s interesting when describing lavender haze she says “when the world finds out you’re in love with somebody, they’re going to weigh in on it.” i know this could obviously mean the world weighing in on her relationship with joe but what if she’s also talking about protecting the thing going on with matty a theme she later explores in but daddy i love him.. i can also see it being “rose coloured glasses” towards joe but honestly the other lyrics about how he doesn’t say too much, he doesn’t read into her melancholia, etc just seem a bit negative in comparison to this feeling of lavender haze and being in love.

Vanessa Lesser

I absolutely agree. It reminds me of Coney Island the way she has multiple relationships and how dark and depressed she felt. Maybe even Harry too. I don’t quite understand how Matty could have broken her heart as badly in midnights era and before, bc that didn’t happen until the Eras tour as far as we know.

Enzo Reis

@VanessaLesser I think Marron could aply for Matty because they were together em 2015, but it didn't work out because he wanted drugs more and also Taylor was on the peak of her good girl image, so they split up. And like she said in Chole or Sam, she spend half of the decade wondering what they could have been. So Maroon, looking with a Matty's perspective is about that 2015 first break up.

Emma Butler

You ladies are so smart, your minds fascinate me and make me so curious about all of these theories! Love your videos!!

Vanessa Lesser

Oh true…I guess it just doesn’t feel as devastating as the ttpd era. But that’s also the culmination of ten years. Chloe etc is sooooo fascinating as well bc i’ve seen interpretations that it happened in the past, she’s reliving it, but also maybe if she’s going through the motions w him and like, disassociating with him bc SHE is chloe sam sophia or marcus…she changed into goddesses villans and foes, genders, etc for him. I swear these songs i will refathom my whole life. There’s so many perspectives!

Vanessa Lesser

This video is absolutely amazing. I have watched, listened, paused, rewound refathomed so many times. Thank youuuuuuu. Your minds always are so essential in understanding and connecting Taylor’s storytelling. I love at the end when you are sorting out Great War, Hits Different and YLM. I have to ask how Cardigan enters that piece of the chat tho? She was in the basement, thrown under the bed, etc with Joe or maybe someone else and Matty kept putting her on calling her his favorite…is that a reflection of the past like 2015 bc it had to be before they worked on midnights…ahhhhh.

Vanessa Lesser

@cassy i agree. Genius has the “you say” with the how’d we endup onthe floor, but Apple Music has “you say, “your roommates…” i need to check her actual lyric book now! and calling Joe a roommate is tea bc she definitely “can’t remember” if she even has a bf in bejeweled.

Mly

I'm watching this again because oh, what an album Midnights is, but I NEED you all to check out @maryhan.music because she made a Chloe or etc video that is OUTRAGEOUSLY GOOD. Thanks for the refathom videos.

Lison

the loml/glitch parallel with "counterfeit" OMG

Coffee @ Midnight

So my recent fathoming on the The Great War is that it could actually that it’s about a much earlier time period of her and Joe, like what gets referenced to in Cornelia Street — there were periods of instability in the beginning where she didn’t think he was for real (combined with the major trust issues that she had from everything else going on in her life at that time). I agree that it was likely more than just one big fight, but I think Cornelia Street references perhaps the last battle when she felt she could believe it was for real. But they got through it and seemed to have a period of stability for some time. And so that’s where you get her feeling of “I vowed I would always be yours” which correlates to her in Cornelia Street being scared of him leaving. It would then make sense in her reflecting on this when writing Midnights because in You’re Losing Me she’s talking about him NOT fighting for her so she’s thinking about a time back when he did fight for her and wondering like what happened?Where did this all get off track? (almost a bit like How Did It End). Also there’s another tie in to TTPD when considering it this way. In TGW she says “I vowed not to cry anymore - If we survived the Great War” and in Guilty As Sin she asks “Am I allowed to cry?” as in after I made this promise and got what I wanted at that time, am I allowed to cry if it’s not what I want anymore or didn’t turn out how I expected it to be (but it technically is what I asked/bargained for). Anyways, just thoughts, and peace, and love!

domdodom

reach trying to link again

Samm Delamoneda

When you fathom maroon you really fathom maroon

Abby

maroon has always given me harry vibes because of the “carnations you had thought were roses, thats us” but after your fathoming i think it could be in reference to multiple men. maybe its a jake and harry song as they were both from the red era and were on and off, and then referring to matty in a way also because he has re-entered her life from this era and its taking her back to this time. soooo many fathomings

efegalda

as of lately Ive kinda been more convinced that midnights is so confusing because it follows a bit of a coney island pattern, like going back to analizing how previous relationships ended to understand and process the one with joe that is really struggling and shes like white knuckle holding on to it, and then she is glaring at the flame because it represents a thought but she is probably wondering if its time to burn the house down, like we saw in the tour visuals as well. I had absolutely not fathom the possible matty songs on midnights besides maroon, really enjoyed this video tysm heheh but yeah I feel like midnights is a forever and continuos fathoming too

efegalda

also adding the alcott and renegade to this understanding is so superior, and I think she has writing credits on another song in the album that has the alcott in it

Katie Rogers

I’ve always taken the rust between telephones to be like their music (microphone aka telephone). It’s been mentioned that they talked through their music and given that there was 3 years between 1989 and rep, the “telephone” could be considered rusted? Also her microphone in the eras tour movie looks rusted when she sings maroon in the surprise songs

Matthew Gordon

Um I need a fathoming of why ROBIN is in the denial playlist?! I love Robin but I’ve never in my wildest dreams thought of it as a song having to deal with the relationships of Taylor’s?! I always thought it was about Aaron’s son

Megan

Oh my god you two have FATHOMED SOME THINGS and I can never look at these songs the same again. Amazing depth of thought, thanks!

Jess

I think it's probably related to denial of growing up and childhood being over, rather than a breakdown in a relationship

Jaime

I saw a video about this when midnights came out but they talked about how Carnations are usually used in funeral arrangements, whereas roses are more associated with romance. They thought it was romance and love but it’s actually dead. (Her and Joe) 🧐

Ally ❤️

Stars by the pocketful and flying in a dream references Peter Pan, which we know is Matty… SOTB is a Matt-Man song

Sydney

So glad to hear you gals re fathom this album post ttpd knowing what we know now 🤍 lovely video as always !

Brittany DeLara

Soooo I always took “when you splashed your wine into me and the blood rushed into my cheeks” as he threw the wine AT her and her face went red from embarrassment and anger. It doesn’t seem like she’s referring to a silly moment but a serious one. Kind of the same with the collarbone mark. I always took it as a bruise made out of anger. Not a love bite or whatever.

Courtney

The “carnations you had thought were roses, that’s us” makes me think of “a red rose grew up out of ice frozen ground”.

Summer

Loving all the theories, but wasn’t glitch pretty clearly about joe because of the lyric “it's been two thousand one hundred and 90 days of our love blackout” aka 6 years which was how long they’d been in a relationship?

JD IHateItHere

Isn’t Labyrinth’s “you know how much I hate that everybody expects me to bounce back just like that” possibly calling Matty out for knowing she didn’t let go of the feelings she had with him and using that while she hadn’t yet given up on Joe yet? Matty played on that to rekindle their romance. Mr. Steal Your Girl is in the know about her inability to bounce back from their long illicit affair (in the mind or literal down low hook ups with him/on again off again). I think we all know the feeling of being expected to recover from a relationship and let go of the bad boy (I Can Fix Him No Really I Can) but not at all being able to just let go of the possibility she always played with (Chloe or Sam or Sophia or Marcus/Peter) in her heart until she finally turns out the light on the porch. The Labyrinth is where he goes to fuck with her emotions and makes her smile in order to manipulate the hope. It’s so twisted it’s a Labrynth. I don’t think that lyric of bouncing back just like that is about Joe. It’s about Matty knowing she’s Down Bad.

Alevtina

Also „carnations you had thought were roses, that's us” seems to be a metaphor for counterfeit.

Celina

Taylor is an unreliable narrator at times.

Cali

I seen a video that someone broke down how some of taylor's songs are linked to some of the 1975's songs. They were like call and response type songs back and forth with each other over the years.

madi ꨄ︎

help i always thought maroon was about harry styles LOL

Megan C

The Maroon discussion deserves a Nobel or Pulitzer Prize for Swiftie Lyric Analysis. I think about it multiple times a week.

Megan C

Or it's how long she wasn't with Matty if they were together before Joe...

Natalie Kulick

SO sorry if this has already been considered in the maroon discussion but have we already pointed out in Chloe or Sam or Sophia or Marcus the line "Will that make your memory fade from this scarlet maroon like it never happened?" that feels like a big hint to who that song is about

nikki p

The 1 “ rose flowing with your chosen family” maroon “your roommates cheap ass screw top rose” I always thought “they say the end is coming” was in reference to the pandemic lol

Bailey

Watching this AGAIN. I fear this is one of the best videos you guys have ever done. Scratches my brain so much !!!

sierra

girl saaame. the way i wish i could have a 2 hour convo w/ my bestie about a taylor album 😂

Bailey

SERIOUSLY!!!! So real

Danielle

I just don’t think there’s any chance that Taylor used “scarlet maroon” in cososom and didn’t mean it to be an obvious clue that maroon is about Matty.

Bailey

I actually had read that filming wrapped in Panama for the movie Joe was making with Margaret at the end of December 2021. By January 2022 they weren’t filming anymore. Which would mean almost all of midnights was potently written at the same time as you’re losing me. November - December 2021!

Soph

this should probably not be my comfort video…? but it is so yeah

Em Wilkins

the thing that fucks me up the most about this album is that by effectively ending it with 'you're losing me' - a song that sounds like there's no way back but that she actually likely wrote first or at least very early - and beginning with 'lavender haze' - a song saying "actually, this is creeping back in..." and is her trying to ignore issues to stay in the relationship - she has created the endless cycle of the thought patterns that tormented her *in album format*. like you can listen to the album in full and finish with her saying "this might be done" and then each time you start it again, she is *literally saying* "...but maybe not". illegal.

Soph

Wanna throw out there that Matty’s album came out in 2022 and jack worked on it quite a bit. soo there’s a good chance matty was back in Tays circle by late 2020/2021

Mona

Maroon & Hits different are both 100% about Matty (and about their „breakup“ 10 years ago). There are all the things Bonny mentioned, but you can also tell in the energy. Songs like you‘re losing me & so long, london have this defeated energy as you said because she ultimately ended it because she couldn‘t do it any longer. Whereas Matty left her and she was completely flabbergasted (TTPD) but before they got together again and when she was pining for him it makes perfect sense that she was reminicing on their breakup back then (ties into the sleepless nights throughout her life). In both songs Maroon & Hits different the breakup wasn‘t on her terms, it doesn‘t have the defeated Joe energy, it has the painful Matty energy.

Soph

i think snow on the beach is 100% about matty

Jade

I deeply need to know about this

rachel long

I cannot believe she wrote labyrinth while in a 6 year relationship I cannottttt beliveeeeeeee

Linn

Sweet Nothing ”they say the end is coming” is reminding me of Fresh out the slammer ”my friends tried but I wouldn’t hear it, watch me daily disappearing”. It’s making me imagine her friends (Jack?) trying to tell her the relationship with Joe is not it… and in Sweet nothing she literally ”wouldn’t hear it”, she’s running home to his sweet nothings instead. And in Fresh out the slammer she has obviously fathomed that she was delusional during the Sweet Nothing-time…

Mayra

It's funny how Taylor and Travis are so similar and their exes are the total opposite Joe didn't like the media/being public and KN couldn't put her phone. down

Jackie

Also, "the 1... I was dancing with in New York"

Nika

Could someone explain what these playlists by Taylor are or what their purpose is? Like why did she create these?

Megan C

When she was releasing TTPD, fans speculated that the different colors/photos/names of the variant album matched up with the five stages of grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance). And then prior to TTPD, she released playlists where she put her songs into different categories, each playlist being one of the stages... so like when we thought Lavender Haze was initially a love song and then she put it in the delusional/denial playlist, it provided more clarity on how she viewed the songs. Idk if this makes sense- let me know if it doesn't and I will try again lol.

Megan C

This is one of my emotional support videos now and I just get so stuck on her folklore aoty speech when she said as soon as I write a song, I play it for Joe. Like how did she explain all these songs that may be MH songs? It stresses me out just thinking about it. 😂🫠

Megan C

Same lol

Nika

Oh thank you, that really helped 💖

izzy 🪷

maroon is 1000% about matty, I never understood how anyone could see anything else. that line in chloe et all confirmed it completely.

izzy 🪷

literally! i was like girl, accept it lolol

izzy 🪷

omg you just blew my mind :3

Hoostock

You talk a lot here about Taylor and Joe being on and off but it could be that they had times apart because he was off filming without her but they were still together

Barb 🔆

Bonny and Emily do a great job offering the other possibilities.

Soph

This video is one of my favorites ever I think cause it highlights your guys intelligenceee the ability to understand stuff in multiple contexts

Soph

Em is in DENIIAL about maroon lolll

Barb 🔆

You nailed the fathoming of midnights in the contact of ttpd , for sure. I appreciate how humble you are recognizing the delulu status of your initial Midnight's take. Also, important for all of us to remember that songwriters and artists in general take Liberties to make their Work Fit narratives and rhyme schemes and interpretations as needed .. So not every lyric is going to have a perfectly tight explanation.

Brittany R

I kinda wished you guys would still listen to the songs during your refathomings. Just me?!

Dori McDowell

*back after TTPD 2years birthday* Literally just remembered Matty was dating FKA Twigs 2021 & 2022. So they were both in relationships 😏🤭🤔

Dori McDowell

She was also starting Era's Tour planning in 2021... WILD how much was going on!!!

Ashley

Love that we are STILL fathoming in 2026 🤭 and I so agree with you, thier exes couldn’t be more opposite

Ilka van Schalkwyk

I'll be getting over you my whole life links to You were the Loss of my Life as well as Will I Always Wonder

n moon

I wish you guys could fathom all her songs that you know now that could be matty related.... I could die tomorrow, not knowing who her songs were for!!! I get a mini panic attack just thinking about it! One day there is going to be a documentary about her after she is dead, her children and friends are going to talking about who she was talking about and im going to be dead (mot knowing any of this) because im older than her 😔

Janie

Sometimes I wonder if Midnights is actually Stevie Knick’s story…and nothing to truly do with Taylor except her empathetic emotions and skilled writing craft? Don’t worry- I know I’m wrong and that doesn’t bother me one bit. Still so much of this album feels like a template- “a fill in the blanks” and whether it’s Clara Bow, Stevie Nicks, Taylor Swift, or the next ingenue, the stories reveal similar patterns. 🤷‍♀️

Cordie

I'm sure you won't see this comment 2 years after the fact, but I saw an interview before the pandemic where Matty was asked about Taylor and he said he would love to produce Taylor's music if she did her version of Jonie's Blue, and a stripped back sound (acoustic country sound). I've always thought that it must have been during that time, after seeing each other again that they began to text as friends and that he sent her Downtown Lights and inspired such songs as: guilty as sin?, ivy, illicit affairs and cardigan. (I knew you'd come back to me). link --> https://youtu.be/9v0ccdogyAU?si=TqINAg7p3NiKffaL (6 years ago). This was response to Emily's comment on the rekindling with Matty around 2:12:14. She wasn't cheating, she was just thinking "what if?" or more like haunted by it. (ILIPW). I do think High Infidelity is about Calvin Harris and the reason I think she was thinking this is because she was in the middle of another possible breakdown and she was looking at what went wrong, before Joe this was her longest relationship.