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UNCUT - The Search Part 2 (DS9 S3E2) | Star Trek Journey 330 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-01-09 14:00:20
Edited:
2026-01-10 16:03:14
Imported:
2026-09
Tags:
stj

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THE LORE!!!

I really hope you guys get worked. This episode plays quite differently after the first time.

Summer

Alex’s surprise face (lovingly dubbed by me the Kermit face) is priceless

Zenlike Creature

Oh man, am I livid! So, I've been watching along with you via Netflix but Paramount have just pulled all Star Trek from there... I'm going to have to source the Boxset now to keep up and that's not cheap brand new. Hopefully I can find a second-hand copy soon! I can watch via Prime but that'll cost me £4.99 a month and I already hold a paying subscription with Prime anyway. Absolute joke! Can you tell I'm miffed?

Target Audience

I believe other patrons have said it moved to Paramount+

Beagle Boy

Ira got one over you Alex

Zenlike Creature

Yeah, can access that via Prime or Directly with Paramount+ but it's still another subscription to pay at the price cited above. Just very annoying.

Deep Red

Oh wow, I didn't even notice that. Great detail. Also really appropriate username lol

Zenlike Creature

Also, for the cost of that per year, I can by the entire Boxset and never owe anyone another penny. I'll be back.

Matchstick Jose

They got worked! One of your best DS9 reactions so far, gents. Kudos.

Alejandro Calzetta

An amazing reaction guys. Your faces when the truth was revealed. I felt the same as Alex in 1994.

Trekkie74205

Love this episode. It got me good the first time I saw it. I know you guys have to steer clear of a lot of things to avoid spoilers. It is the reason I post some of the things I do. I was reading an old interview with Michael Piller and I am paraphrasing on this one. He said TNG is like Superman and DS9 is like Batman. Batman is darker and grittier. He is willing to cross lines that wouldn’t be in Superman’s nature. When I thought about this it really did make a lot of sense. Then it occurred to me, VOY is so Wonder Woman. Ugh Josh, I have the gambling gene too…

Alan F

I'm in the same boat... But Amazon have the entire season 3 for £4.49 at the moment. (I bought it ☺️)

Jonathon Tsagris

I'm honestly surprised it never crossed your minds during the episode that you were being worked; especially when we got to Garak's death.

Jonathon Tsagris

The Dominion chose the best possible admiral to fake.

Collin Freeman

Good pop, guys. I think most of us reacted the same way you did when we first watched this episode.

Fedora The Explorar

So Rick Berman all throughout DS9 has forbidden writers from talking to the cast or any of the other crew so that puts the acting talent of the actors and how much they understood the character even better in perspective

Joe Concepts

I'm never sure about this one. Sometimes seems a little cheap to just do the old "everything was fake" routine. But it's still done well. I think they were clever to bring back Nechayev, because we're used to her sometimes being unreasonable with our captains, so her being the face of a bad Starfleet decision makes it a little more acceptable.

Joe Concepts

It was very cool of the writers to tie Odo's seemingly unrelated origin story into the bigger storyline.

Overwatch Smurf

I was nervous about this one after "The Jem'Hedar" but I am glad to see you guys loved it. We are so back!

Tim Nikiforovs

I wonder if there's a device that could measure the exact number of changeling in that ocean of goo? Some sort of.....Odometer?

Collin Freeman

The reason for not confirming Garak is dead was to fool the audience because we would probably not have bought that he was actually dead, which would have been more of a tip that something else is going on here than what we're seeing.

Jonathon Tsagris

I don't think Whispers counts as an 'it was all a dream/didn't happen' episode at all. Whispers did in fact happen; we were just kept in the dark about exactly what was happening and why. They both have a twist at the end that recontextualises everything we just watched but the two episodes go about it in very different ways

Christopher Hayes

This is why you have to give the whole episode a chance without checking out.

Collin Freeman

Yes, we have arrived at more consistently good Deep Space Nine.

Terminaldogma01

They tricked you by siccing Admiral Bitchaev on you!

Jonathon Tsagris

To be fair it took like 6 ships to beat the defiant up. At the end of season 1 we saw a galaxy class ship get blown to pieces.

Jonathon Tsagris

Surprised the Patron takes didn't bring this up, but the actor who played the female changeling in this episode also played the alien in the holographic projection that gave the big speech at the end of The Chase. I've always been amused at how similar the makeup was between the two.

Deep Red

I bet at this point the Ven Diagram of Target Audience viewers and Jen Murray viewers is a circle

Sam Langanke

Absoluteley not. She just says "Uh! Oh!" and has nothing else. Also it is quite revealing that she stays just a few episodes in front of TA. Bitchmove.

Worf and Riker Ride Again

This was a good reaction! I'm genuinely amazed you weren't spoiled about the Dominion, respect to the moderators / most people keeping shut this whole time

Trent Bowles

Arrrr, ye not be considerin' all possibilities matey.

Sam Langanke

Yes, there was the "pirateship" but you also predected that the changelings could be the bad guys, Alex! Did you forget that?

Keith S

Great show guys. I'm taking about your reactions not the episode.

Sam Langanke

There is a hint that the Admiral isn't the real admiral. She says to Sisko he could be an Admiral as well "what he always wanted". WE know that because Dax said it to him in Part 1. The real Nejeev would not know this.

Matchstick Jose

I’m guessing so Berman could exert a level of control. Ira Behr has noted that his greatest regret is that the writers did not visit the set barely at all over the course of the show. And the edict of that era of Star Trek was that the actors had to be “dead letter perfect” and were not allowed to change a word of the script (that Berman had ultimately approved) without calling the writers and getting any changes approved. Of course, another reason the writers didn’t visit the set is that they were 5-men/women writing staffs writing 26 episodes a year and didn’t have the time. (Crazy if you compare it with 10-to-12-person writing staffs these days writing 8 episodes every two or three years.)

Ryan

I was thinking that too! They dropped it in their part 1 reaction like "wouldn't it be crazy if..." and everyone sitting at home watching was like "YES IT SURE WOULD!"

Trent Bowles

While I don't remember ever seeing any behind-the-scenes information regarding this, it really felt like Garak was originally written to have been real here. Makes me wonder if they decided against it later on in the process, either because it would make no sense for him to have been on board the Defiant, or because it would weaken the mystique of his character having him fall victim to the Dominion's mind probe. Honestly though, I'm glad he was there, even if it wasn't actually him. As reliant as this episode is on the ending, having Garak there to help drag us to the finish line is helpful.

Ashley Sigmon

The sadness in Odo's voice when he says "I have lived a...solitary life" still gets me.

Ian Westcott

I'm sorry but.. Deanna's derp-face in the thumbnail for this video just kills me.

Ryan

I had forgotten how much of this episode played on our knowledge/fears of what a typical Star Trek part-two episode would be. I wonder if Ira Behr was trying to slip in some pointed commentary on that. "We're gonna go this direction to start because everyone will expect us to drop the ball this way..." I'm so glad you guys got worked and appreciated it. I did too on my first watch. I can see where some people would think the big reset-button ending was a dramatic cheat, but I love it because of the story that it's serving. The idea that the Dominion's first instinct is to do this calculated psyop where they're literally reading our characters' minds to gain an advantage? That's terrifying. It makes them a different and dangerous enemy right off the bat.

Marko

Great link is a form of hive mind where they share ideas and emotions. But if you think about it it's also one big orgy.

River Acheron

Horror Connection: Borath's actor, Dennis Christopher, is the same guy who played adult Eddie in the 1990 Stephen King's 'IT' miniseries. A much less punchable face without all that makeup. Decent actor in 'IT' too.

Bert

I can only imagine how this episode landed for you, especially with fans flagging it as “important.” On the surface, it looks like the big shakeup: characters shuffled around, alliances forming, people getting killed off, assets moved off the station. It’s easy to read this as the show hitting the reset button. One reaction you had that I hadn’t even considered was how the introduction of Michael Eddington, paired with Part 1 ending on Odo finding his people, creates a very plausible exit ramp for Odo as a character. You could absolutely imagine Odo leaving and being replaced by a new security chief or someone like him. That’s a smart misdirect. As for Eddington himself, I know you didn’t like him here, which is understandable—but obviously this isn’t really him. For what it’s worth, I find him likable. What I really like about this episode is how much of it feels oddly flat—and I’m pretty sure that’s intentional. Jonathan Frakes knows exactly what he’s doing as a director. Big moments that should have weight—characters leaving, characters dying—are rushed through and denied the pathos they’d normally get. If these changes were truly permanent, they’d land much harder. That flatness feels like a tell. An uneasy signal that what looks like a massive status-quo shift… maybe isn’t quite what it seems.

Michel Provost

I was fun to listen to your reactions of part I knowing what was coming. I guess you were surprised.

Colby

First time I noticed this, but yes. "Have you been reading my personal logs or something?"

Colby

How much of this goo is Odo?

Slugology

necheyev jumpscare

Colby

No spoilers to note, as Alex does toward the end of the takes discussion, this allows Odo to stop only looking backward to his origins and start looking forward to who he chooses to be. ❤️

David Felgate

The previous episode started with a recap which ended with the words "and now, the continuation..." This essentially makes "The Search" parts 1 and 2 actually the final two installments of a 3-part story that started with "The Jem'Hedar". Does knowing this change how you feel about that episode? Maybe you didn't love it because it was only the setup for a larger 3-part story.

Duncan McDonald

Well, Odo Searched for the Founders, and he Found them Searching for Odo. Kind of.

Summer

I can say it when I am not thinking about it, though hearing the name recently helps

David Felgate

Fair enough. I would agree that every installment of a multi-episode story needs to stand on its own to a certain extent.

Paul Rymer

In the search part 1 the contact of Quark’s said that they deal with the Vorta as middle men for the founders and that if you don’t do what the Vorta say they send in the Jem Hadar. The scene is at 28:00.

Paul Rymer

How does that sit then with what some actors said that they lobbied for interesting stories to be written for them. Marina Sirtis said this - were the TNG cast too troublesome so for DS9 they created the rule of writers not speaking to the cast?

Paul Rymer

Good to know, won’t bother watching her content if there’s not much added.

Ca$hWednesday

My bad on being one of the spoilers of the Defiant I guess. The episode previous Odo mentioned it was "adrift in space" and the end of the episode the said the Defiant is in orbit and they beamed back up to it. I guess myself and clearly some of the other commenters were on a different wavelength. Muh bad. Love you guys <3

River Acheron

I hear ya David. I dunno, maybe it's because I grew up with more or less serialized TV like The Walking Dead, Stranger Things etc, so I never looked at 2 or 3 parters any more or less than I would rate a standalone episode. In other words, if an episode is part of a 2-parter, I don't judge it on a different level. I just rate my enjoyment for that. I know there are fans that puts a 2-parter on a different level (they may expect more from it), and I get that from a critical viewpoint. I don't agree with that kind of viewing habit, but I ABSOLUTELY understand it. For me, I just take every episode at face value. With some exceptions, even finales as well. But I am not really a critically-minded viewer. I would make an awful reactor. Except with videogames! Then I am insanely critical!

Darren

As a general rule I don’t like fake out endings and this tended to colour my perception of this one but I think I really enjoy it now. But it’s Odo’s story that I love the most.

David Felgate

On his whiteboard, Josh wrote that this episode was "Important", presumably for its world-building and how it sets the direction of the series going forward. My thought was that the 2nd season finale, which I consider the beginning entry of a 3-part story, is also important for the same reason. This what I had in mind when I asked my original question. No doubt Josh would counter that being important is not good enough, that an episode also has to be entertaining in its own right, and that "The Jem'Hedar" doesn't get a free pass because its an important part of an important 3-episode arc. And couldn't say he is wrong. Unlike you, I grew up with episodic television in the 70's. My first exposure to serialized TV was "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". Say what you want about the dialog in that show or Joss Whedon reputation, "Buffy" and its spinoff "Angel" did a masterful job of juggling standalone episodes, multi-episode mini-arcs, season-long villain arcs, plus the overall series arc, all at the same time.

Raphael Gaytan

I just love Garak. He elevates every scene he is in. DEFINITELY my very favorite character of this series!

Jack Molitor

Another great all-timer TA react!

Jon1701

I wasn’t going to mention that to the boys but that is always a massive tell thats it’s “all a dream” when there are no establishing shots. I noticed it the first time during “Frame of Mind” TNG. Try and forget it because it may tarnish your enjoyment later.

paultardspambot .

The runabouts do have phasers, remember in the Maquis when they fought their modified ships with runabouts andthe runabouts firing in "The Jem'Hadar"

paultardspambot .

In the simulation, it was said there were ships looking for the others which would include Kira and Odo but there was too much going on for them to pay too much attention to that

Dark Kronis

dominion are new to the alpha quadrant and even they know Starfleet admirals suck

paultardspambot .

it wasnt the defiant that was at 20 percent life support, that was the shuttle Sisko and Bashir escaped in. The ship got beat badly but it took out a Jem'hadar fighter and it survived despite the pounding (did the Dominion repait it enough for them to fo home? Thats the only unclear part)

paultardspambot .

Why did they keep the Defiant? Well, it would make some sense they would want to analyze the techology. I'm not sure the plan was to kill the captured officers, they were doing a simulation to see how they would respond to a "peaceful" takeover of their side of the galazy. Not sure what the plan was had Odo not found them. It's possible that they would have sent them back as Odo might have been pissed if they killed hi friends?

Scribe31oz

Please watch Babylon 5 After DS9 because its an example of one primary writer from start to finish

tyranusfan

I like how throughout the episode, we never see the outside of DS9. We never see the runabout launch. Every shot is interior only. Because it ain't real! :)

Doctor Pulaski

I'm glad you guys loved this two-parter! Sorry about the spoilers in the Patron takes, I honestly stopped leaving takes myself because I get so mad when I go in there and see so many... This is going to be tricky with a show like DS9

Gabriel

Capturing an enemy ship is definitely extremely valuable. Studying the technology allows them to discover weakness's and exploits they can take advantage of, and for data collection on there ships computer system about the Alpha Quadrant, the Federation, and other alien races that inhabit that section of the galaxy.

Tim Nikiforovs

Technically none of it is Odo since he didn't go into the link, but I'm just making a corny pun joke

Narnman

i caught on to that line too but funny i couldnt place where i heard it and was just from the previous episode oops lol

Narnman

i dont read patron takes as i like to be surprised what episode is next but yes that does surprise me. i was also wondering if josh and alex would remember her. sometimes they do for previous actors

Narnman

there is something to be said for having smaller more maneuverable ships. i'm thinking defiant vs galaxy class but it also applies to these jem haddar ships

BN13

SFdebris rates every episode on a scale of 1-10. If I were to do that, every episode with Garak in it would automatically get an extra point, even if it meant bringing some episodes to an 11. He really does elevate every episode he's in.

BN13

It's not supposed to be clear what species the Vorta are at this point. Yes they were named dropped, but they were never spelled out.

BN13

I think the main reason why everyone freaked out over The Jem'Hadar wasn't because they thought that episode was amazing. It's because people got afraid that based on their reaction, that TA might hate the Jem'Hadar species, and therefore hate the Dominion, and therefore every episode going forward with the Dominion in its plot. So fans got afraid that you might hate the direction that the show takes in these two episodes.

BN13

This was all over the patron takes. They just weren't read here.

BN13

Yeah we might get a lot more of what happened here where fans remember an episode as "the one where X was introduced." But unless they just watched that episode with a scrutinizing eye, they're not going to remember that a lot of what has since become common knowledge about X hasn't actually been revealed in that episode yet.

Tim Nikiforovs

So I hadn't seen this episode in years, and from memory I felt like part 2 was a step down from part 1. Unlike some, I actually do enjoy the fake out and suspected you would as well. What I didn't like was most of the scenes on the Changeling planet leading up to the reveal. I remembered them being too slow and boring and just killing the pacing of the DS9/simulation bits. Watching again, they're brief enough that most aren't too intrusive, so it was better than I remember. What there's plenty of "WTF is going on here" to tip you off that something is wrong, they keep it just plausible enough that you don't fully suspect it's not real. Starfleet is well within it's rights to reassign officers, starfleet admirals are well established to be incompetent shitheads, and starfleet's recent insistence to bend over backwards to avoid conflict with the technologically inferior cardassians makes the dominion treaty quite plausible. Even Eddington's explanation for why they're letting the Jem'Hadar get away with murder(literally in T'Rul's case) isn't completely unbelievable if starfleet was blinded by the promise of a military alliance with the dominion. You start imagining a season long arc where they're off the station and by the time starfleet smartens up and realizes the dominion is bad news, Bajor is an occupied territory. I think certain things give it away though. Aside from some characters seeming off, it just seems like everything is moving too fast. Like the writers would stretch out such sweeping changes over a longer set of episodes. Plus killing off a recurring character like Garak so casually and seemingly writing the main characters into a corner is enough to tip you off that something isn't right, but by that point you only get a few seconds to figure it out before the reveal. I also would say Odo choosing to stand by the people he's known and the principles he's lived by was the highlight of the episode. As others have said, definitely a turning point for the character and his outlook on things. His questions about where he came from were answered. He wanted to find out who he was, and he did, just not the way he imagined. I don't know how long Odo was gone, decades at least from the sound of it, but I feel bad for the other changelings they sent out. If Odo has already led such an isolated life, and wasn't supposed to find his way back for another THREE CENTURIES, then how messed up will the others be by the time they get back? Also was it necessary for it to be infants? Would Changelings who had experienced the link find it too difficult to stay away? Regardless, pretty shitty parenting.

Caleb

Are you all beginning to like Avery Brooks acting? He almost went off the rails in the scene with Admiral Nechayev. Do you like his leadership style compared to Kirk and Picard?

Evan Guthrie

Love the development of the Odo-Kira friendship in this episode. They have a very deep history and I'm glad the writers chose her to include in Odo's discovery of his origin.

Evan Guthrie

I must confess I was one of the patrons who assumed J&A would jump to the conclusion the Defiant was sticking around after this episode. In my defense, the moderators could have deleted all of them, but they may have thought the same thing. In the grand scheme, it's not a huge spoiler. Based on the comments I was worried it was something bigger that was spoiled.

Target Audience

I think we started liking him last season. We talked a bit about his leadership v Kirk & Picard in the part 1 discussion.

Target Audience

I’m sure there was some of that. There was definitely plenty of butthurt because of “show is good, you’re too dumb” though, especially on YouTube. Not that it’s a big deal, it’s expected!

Ca$hWednesday

Selfishly, I'm a bit worried about B5 now. I'm concerned there's going to be too much comparing the two. As someone who personally doesn't like B5, it would be miserable.

Scribe31oz

Without going into spoiler territory and after watching Alex and Josh's reactions, i think B5 would be up their alley.

Summer

We were told in the Jem Hadar that the Dominion had been gaining information about the Alpha quadrant but most of the simulation came from the minds of those plugged in to examine their characters. That is why Quark and Jake were off and why someone new to us was featured a little. So many are talking about netflix axing their Trek, here in the States I never got Trek on netflix. Since 2017 I do mainly watch Trek on amazon, recently I even bought season 2 and 3 of DS9 to stream. My biggest issue with streaming though there are many, is if I want to watch Schisms randomly on halloween it will show me being in season 6 of TNG. I am considering going back to my DVDs since I do have all Voyager, all DS9 and all TNG on DVD and have acess to Enterprise on DVD too. The main issue with that is obviously that you have to switch to dvd and switch disks, also if your dvd player goes dead as mine often do. But with DS9 and Voyager it can be worth just watching on DVD. Have not actually noticed an improvement between streaming and dvd with TNG or the original series either. Just some thoughts. Though everyone who has lost access to star trek through netflix cancel your subscription for at least a few weeks and make it clear why, I prefer amazon to Netflix any way.

BN13

Just decades? In my mind, I haven't ruled out that the 100 could have been sent out in times that even the Changlings consider ancient; like thousands or even hundreds of thousands of years ago. My only evidence of this is when Odo asks the female Changling how long he was away, she says "a LONG time." I get the impression that the Changlings are pretty timeless. They probably don't age, and are basically immortal unless they are killed. In my head, I haven't ruled out that the Changlings might even have been the Progenetors from the Chase before they evolved into Changlings. So if THEY say something was a long time, it's probably very long compared to how we might think of it. As for why Odo doesn't remember that, maybe Changlings lie dormant indefinitely as infants until something starts encouraging them to actually change and grow? Odo could have been floating in space for who knows how long until he ended up in Dr Mora's lab. And only then did he start to mature because Dr Mora made him move. I have a feeling the 100 may have been sent out long before the Changlings decided to form the Dominion. Maybe they were more innocent back then? Had different motivations. But it's been such a long time that they were sent out, that the Changlings are completely different now. They care less about exploration and more about dominance and order. I feel like the Changlings think they know everything though the Great Link. But the Great Link probably works like shared memories where memories aren't infallible and can even morph over time. They've probably rewritten their own history many times by now, and fully forgotten their oldest origins.

BN13

Here's what we know about the Dominion so far. The Founders are the Changlings; the Jem'Hadar are the OP deadly army; various other species are members and do various roles for the Dominion; and the Dominion has a heirarchy. For instance, the Karuma from part 1 and Rules of Aquisition, play a very minor part in the Dominion, but they seem to be the gateway for handling trade negotiations with them. The Karuma also report to the Vorta, name dropped in part 1. They either do what the Vorta tell them to do, or the Vorta send in the Jem'Hadar. We can also deduce that Borath's race is pretty high up in the Dominion. Eris was going to be a plant, and Borath was running the simulation on the Founder's home world with Jem'Hadar guards. We've also seen that even though the Dominion is capable of using strong deadly force, they are far more about gathering intelligence. The whole point of the Jem'Hadar episode wasn't for the Dominion to come in fighting to the Alpha Quadrant, but to set up an undercover plant to gather information on the Aplha Quadrant. The Jem'Hadar already had a ton of information on us when we met them. And their whole plan in this two-parter wasn't to destroy the Defiant, but to capture the crew of the Defiant and put them in a simulation. And again, NOT so they could plan a military invasion of the Alpha Quadrant, but to see how the Federation would react if they tried to gain a diplomatic foothold in the Alpha Quadrant. They really do operate more as an anti-federation in that sense. And just like the Federation, the main way they operate isn't through force. As strong as the Dominion are, the main threat from them is actually their planning and intelligence. We saw the OP brute force of the Dominion with the Jem'Hadar. But we see a whole other side to the Dominion knowing that the Changlings are the Founders. The demenor of the Founders is entirely different than the Jem'Hadar. We get a much more patient, intelligent, controlled, and hands off feel from them, and THAT is the real threat. That is what is running everything behind the scenes. With the Jem'Hadar, we see the brawn of the Dominion; but with the Changelings, we see the brain. As the female Changling said, when it is time to make their move in the Alpha Quadrant, they are "willing to wait until the time is right." As the show goes on, you'll continue to see just how different the Dominion operates from any other race we've seen.

Zenlike Creature

Thanks for the offer but I've decided to sign up to Paramount+ after discussion with my commanding officer (wife) :)

Summer

I also wish to advise: if you build a warship have a reasonable sick bay

Numinous2019

I know we don't see how Odo (carrying an unconscious Kira) manages to reach a shuttle and escape the Defiant in Part 1, I had a much bigger problem with Sisko and Bashir doing the same. As rapid as the editing was for the fight on the Defiant's bridge, it was clear they had already lost that fight. So it just didn't add up that they would escape. I wonder if this was the show denying any accusations of cheating the viewers. They indicated to us as early as possible that something was off.

Numinous2019

Josh: "Maybe they [the Changelings] are the Founders" (near the end of your discussion of Part 1). Josh, you were technically both wrong and right.

Matchstick Jose

Clues it was a simulation: 1) No exterior establishing shots of anything but the Changelings’ home world. 2) Sisko and Bashir somehow not only escaped the Defiant, but managed to spend six days in a tiny, barely functioning shuttlecraft (maybe escape pod?) in Dominion space and not get captured 3) Not only the batshit stuff happening on the station, but the pace of it that seems to stuff a season’s worth of development and changes into 42 minutes 4) Fake Jake for some reason pointing out to Sisko that something is going on (I always wonder if the Dominion is using versions of the characters pulled from the crew’s brains, and so this is Sisko trying to warn himself) 5) Admiral Nechayev somehow knowing about Sisko’s very personal desire to become an admiral that he confided in to Dax years ago 6) What Josh notes that “There’s still a show after this” and the changes would seem to mean the end of DS9 the show set on the station 7) Garak dying 8) Wormhole collapsing I’m sure there’s more.

Numinous2019

All very good points that you've made. In Star Trek we've had characters come back to life, intervention by the likes of the Prophets, timelines altered, major plot developments rowed back on, the status quo re-established, etc. Basically a ST plot is never over until the green lady dances. For all we knew the writers would just contrive a way to reset everything back to pre-season 3.

LonghillAndy

Hope you guys aren’t feeling Patreon takes fatigue at this point after watching your reactions to some takes even from long term “takers” I know I’ve been in the “I fucked up club” in the past for you over a prop. I hope you stick with the takes in the future but I think on certain peak episodes like this “the defiant reveal” hopefully the moderators can be even stricter about what gets through to you guys based on what you’ve said about alluding to future appearances in wording etc (I believe even my take on this episode may have even alluded to a possible future now I think about it, depending on interpretation) I’ll personally endeavour to be more careful with my wording, but a lot of people need to hold their enthusiasm especially as theirs a hell of a lot more takes coming in now that you’ve grown even more as we get into DS9 season 3 onwards. 🖖🏻 LLAP to the community

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

To quote my favorite companion from heart of gold - only way to save someone is to finish the fight

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

B5 does NOT stand up. and is VERY hard to get through. Now, it is 100% worth the slog, having some of the highest highs, but man is it earned. I don't know if the boys are up for it (yet)

Jon1701

If you go back and watch the introduction of the Defiant it is clear that this is a new “character” in the show. It’s not just a ship of the week. I know the boys have mentioned before they don’t get caught up in the ship stuff but with the light up of the name as she leaves DS9 and a discussion about her backstory in the ward room I think it likely she will show up again.

Deliximus

Gotta be honest, when the Defiant showed up, I never questioned if the ship will stay or not. It could be because of the magazines talking about it

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

Good job guys! Your spoilers have awoken their inner contrarian. I look forward to them picking a part all the cherished things you loved so much you couldn't keep to yourself.

Caleramaen

Glad to see I was right and Alex and Josh's distrust of starfleet let them totally buy the whole simulation thing.

Numinous2019

Josh has made clear repeatedly that no specifics about the future of DS9 should be commented on. Best approach should be pretending Josh and Alex are watching the show as if it was being broadcast NOW and no one knows what happens beyond the current Patreon Takes.

Tasha Yar's Positronic Vibrator

Honestly, it had been a while since I had watched these episodes and I'd forgetten that the Defiant took the beating that it did.

Ramen Nudels

The audience deserves abuse for those inconsiderate takes.

DRedd

Re: The Defiant. It survived two Jem'Hadar ships, took one out, and only lost once reinforcements arrived. It performed better in combat than a Galaxy Class in a similar situation.

Forbidden Donut

Yeah, specifically when it comes to Patrons implying that the Defiant sticks around, I think it's kind of B.S. to complain about that. Did they really think, especially in 1994, especially on a show they know doesn't have an enormous budget, that they were going to design a whole new Federation ship, give it a big on-screen introduction, then give it an on-screen backstory, plus build multiple sets for it, plus spend money on numerous 'hero shots' of it departing the station, flying around, and being in combat, all of which makes narrative sense to not only have such a ship, but to obviously want to use it moving forward, only to then just destroy it, off screen, in one episode, without even a direct verbal confirmation that it was blown up, and with the story literally ending with them all beaming back up to it? I'm legitimately surprised that they even entertained the possibility of it being a one-and-done idea, let alone entertaining it long enough to make it a part of their complaints about comments that 'reveal future stuff'. It really didn't at all. I understand, in general, the complaints about comments that do that kind of thing, but this specifically ain't it.

Tim Nikiforovs

We really just don't have enough info to say for sure.

ShazD

I think you'll find that DS9 writing is of such good quality that you'll never get a badmiral as ridiculously written as "Dominon written Nechayev".

Numinous2019

Brooks finally gets to show what he can do. Sisko has been written in too restrained a way. Even his passionate nature hardly registered. The producers may have wanted Brooks to play against type, but it was the wrong direction.

Mark Chrisco

An interesting note I never saw before. The last shot had Kira embracing Odo, taking his hand, much as the Female Changeling did.. This might be in answer to the Female Changelng giving him a taste of the Great Link. Kira wanted Odo to know he already was a part of a link, not with the Changelings, but the "solids."

Jaymison Boeker

It's the best part about the "Badmirals" meme on this channel. Its lures them.

Pixels At Dawn

That's one of my favourite parts - you can assume everyone who isn't captured is actually really a caricature of how the main crew perceives them. Garek being a sneaky sneak spy, Quark being more concerned with profit over anything else... and the Starfleet brass coming in and screwing everything up 😂

Doug

Based on your reactions it looks like the Dominion ragebait was successful

Jeff Cornell

1:35:35 "Intergalactic" warlords, huh? Tell me, "THE LORE!!!", which galaxies other than our own do you suppose the Founders are warlords in? If they were intergalactic, it would be very strange that they'd need a wormhole before learning about people just on the other side of the same galaxy.

Matchstick Jose

After all the consternation about “the plot,” love how wildly different the reactions were to the half of this episode that is nothing but plot delivered at 200 miles an hour. Josh: “I am intrigued by this plot. Let’s see what they do with it.” Alex: “I fucking hate this plot! Where’s Ron?!? Damn your blue beard, Ira!”

Pixels At Dawn

I get it with new folks. TA veterans should really know better by now.

Doug

Imagine Admiral Nechayev reading Sisko's report on everything that happened, and knowing he genuinely thought that was the real Nechayev, seeing that he willingly disobeyed her orders and blew up the wormhole. Like obviously it was a whole Dominion setup but I would still be a little pissed at him

paultardspambot .

Alex forgot in the previous video he did actually say "what if Odo's people are the Fouders?" and Josh said "That would be crazy!"

Summer

Lets be careful about hinting any of the future, it will not or it will comments and the like can be spoilers, the guys don’t need assurances or warnings or tip offs, they need to focus on DS9

Scribe31oz

I disagree but i think they're the types to see characters evolve and not does it not only stand up, its shockingly relevant in this day and age.

DRedd

Can't be saying that yet, ShazD

Loot Narsbaar

I wasn’t wowed by The Jem Hedar, but Loved The Search. I told you all we’d be fine!!

Loot Narsbaar

Re: the implication of the Defiant regarding the money spent: TNG went nuts showing the Enterprise separating, built a battle bridge, and a battle ready room etc. and used the set again twice in 7 years. I really think people need to limit themselves to solely discussing the episode at hand (what worked, what didn’t, did Mark Twain make you want to die) rather than go nuts about what is going to happen... Sisko told the prophets humans value their ignorance of what is to come , otherwise the game wouldn’t be worth watching at all

Nolan

Sometimes I miss the "Dead Letter Perfect." Too much improv can shift a character from their narrative purpose, and can affect the tone of the final piece. It also creates a huge disconnect between the making of something, how the creative making it feel about it's quality, and the audience reception towards it. "We had fun making it, why aren't people having fun watching it?"

Forbidden Donut

That's fair, and I think in general the best policy is what you and they have said: Only say something if you could have said it the day the episode aired. Specifically with the Defiant, it isn't just about the money spent on it. The episode does not show it blow up, nor does anyone in the episode say that it blew up, and if that was not enough, they all literally beam back up to the Defiant at the end of the episode to go home, so it's 100% clear that it's still available. Between that and the way the ship is introduced in part 1, complete with a full explanation and backstory, I think the pretty obvious reasonable/logical conclusion is that the ship is here to stay, just on those factors alone.

Forbidden Donut

I'm glad you both enjoyed this two part beginning of Season 3. I was hopeful you would enjoy it, but after the end of Season 2 I had some doubts. Definitely doesn't hurt to add Ron Moore and Jonathan Frakes to the mix! But credit goes to Ira Steven Behr as well. He may have his bumpy moments, but episodes like Search Part 2 are a demonstration of some of his better work as well.

Loot Narsbaar

That’s fair enough, but the wider implication may be with people going nuts for it in the comments it implies use outside of this arc

Couch Captain

Meaney and Frakes meet on set like Dutch and Dillon meeting in Predator-

Martin Bohnet

There's one more piece of information I wasn't all that aware of until this rewatch: The Founders do not operate openly in the Gamma quadrant - Eris obviously lies about not knowing who or what the founders are, but I think the Karemma are believable - Also the guy from Shadowplay, who fled from the dominion, doesn't connect it to the make-belief stories of changelings his holo-granddaughter discusses with Odo, and the Skrreea do not react on Odo being a changeling. Due to the events of this episode, at least Starfleet and the Romulans know the nature of the founders. I never thought of that being a new situation for them, but maybe it is?

sword bard

I wonder if sending out their infants is designed to ensure the new changelings come back feeling isolated, angry at other species for whatever mistreatment they encountered out there as a weird unknown species, and primed to buy into the "everyone in the galaxy is bad except us" ideology.

Martin Bohnet

maybe you felt like linking the changelings to the chase because it was both Salome Jens...

Nolan

Too be fair, we kept quiet about the Defiant even existing for 2 seasons, that Odo finds his people this soon (I even posted a take back in Vortex implying it'd be a long on-going plot) and that they were the Dominion - so you know, the Defiant being a re-occurring element is just one of those kittens that slipped out without us noticing from the rest of the cats we're trying to herd and keep under wraps. The Defiant also happens to be slapped onto the first disc of some releases of the S3 DVD, and has replaced the Runabout in the opening animation of the DVD menu. So like a fart in the tub, it slipped out and bubbled to the surface. Oops. But I don't think we totally $#!+ the bed either. 😅

Martin Bohnet

hard to reply to this one without knowing if they give B5 a try, so let's stay on the not really spoiling critique: Personally, I find B5 harder to watch then even TOS as I actually find weak CGI more difficult to endure than antique effects of unremastered TOS

sword bard

Odo spends his whole life hoping to meet his family. Odo finally meets his family and finds out they believe in the extermination of all other life forms in the galaxy. 2025 Thanksgiving dinner relatability

Martin Bohnet

Nechayev is just the admiral in charge for the bajor/cardassia border - she hat 5 previous episodes, and all but Descent revolved around the border conflict and the maquis. Personally, I don't really list her on the Badmiral trope account, just on the "weak diplomat list" as the border treaty that lead to the formation of the maquis seems to have been her doing, at least to a degree.

Summer

So I think the Skreans from sanctuary were sent by the Dominion since the Dominion’freed’ them to start invading

Martin Bohnet

I actually chose Latin at school not to have to learn 2 languages: written and spoken French. I still don't think they're connected.

Martin Bohnet

Berman was a controversial figure for several of his ways to do things. We'd better discuss these things when they become more obvious. BTW I love when he does the right things for the wrong reasons. but it will take a LOT of time until I can de-obscure this....

Target Audience

We’ve communicated to our mods to be more strict moving forward

Martin Bohnet

Good solution for those of us which give New Trek a chance - like Starfleet Academy starting next week. I guess the ones who love to loathe "Nu-Trek" would rather not pay Paramount+ (I'm pro most new Trek - one of those who adore Disco. Now that's going to draw hatred..)

JB

YUS DS9 BEGINS

Paul

I was on the edge of my seat the whole time with a sly grin, wondering if either of you would guess the twist or, as you were, get WORKED! Lol. As far as Odo's people being the Founders, Alex you actually guessed this in passing in the part 1 discussion, but I think it was very quick, off the cuff, neither of you really processed that guess with any real weight. But give yourself some credit there! Indeed my favorite scene is by far the ending, where Kira presses, tenderly, Odo's combadge, not her own. She truly cares for him, and he cares for his friends there on the Defiant.

KingPin124

BIG FAIL on so many of those takes, as well as the Mods that are supposed to be handling that. I thought about that reading those takes, but figured they would be taken out in time. I don’t want to have to be the guy always complaining about them. People just need to think more about their posts. 🤦‍♂️

KingPin124

I’m glad to hear that. If the Mods are ever unsure about a take, have them come ask me. I’ll rule the patron takes with the iron fist of a galactic warlord and with the judgement of a Cardassian court. 🫡

Captkirc

I saw on a podcast Terry Farrell and Armin Shimmerman say Berman forbid the voyager and ds9 casts intermingling because he was pissed when the DS9 and TNG crew did in their two years of overlap. As a funny aside the DS9 actors would raid the TNG food service because it was way better similar to what the TNG actors had to do in the early years of their show

Greg Quinn

I like the fact that the dominion matrix simulation did prove that the replacement security guy would be an absolute piece of shhhh.... It with backing everything including letting Jems go around beating up people.

Philbot

I like to pronounce it Abu Jwah, but my mom who speaks French says I’m wrong..

brqby

I am so glad (and relieved) you loved this episode, especially the last half. I think it bodes well that you appreciate how this opens up Odo's character to development.

Philbot

The Dominion got Quark and Garak right! Even Jake.. Sisco didn’t suspect a thing..

Loot Narsbaar

the only thing it proves is he hasn't earned the trust of the five of them

Loot Narsbaar

where do you sh*t in one of those shuttlecrafts

Anthony Hernandez

Rene Auberjonois (Oh-bear-zhen- wah). The zh is the same sound as the s sound in the word pleasure.

Philbot

Pimp hand is a bit of an overstatement. Guys don’t be thinking he’ll be pimping next week. 😂 Hyper bowl 😉

Forbidden Donut

I think it's pretty obvious that if the ship isn't going anywhere (wasn't destroyed), then logically that means it doesn't just sit there idle every episode that happens to be about something other than the Jem'Hadar. It's like once the runabouts were introduced; pretty obvious they're going to occasionally be utilized for various reasons. I cannot imagine seeing that as something that must not be said.

Philbot

Yea but Tv especially in that era you really think they’ll drop in a plot element and never use it again. “Maybe after episode one we’ll never see the station again?” 😂 I guess it’s more like the battle bridge did we doubt we’d see it again? Barely but it at least had 3 appearances? And at least 1 reference to it… “Disaster”

Philbot

Odos Combadge.. that could be a novel. I was thinking every time he transforms he must “Roll” it somewhere? Inside of his body? Going through a grate? squeeze it through first! 😂

Philbot

Maybe, was the Dominion mentioned then? There was probably repercussions in the quadrant..

Philbot

WWJDestroy?

Philbot

🤙🫲

Philbot

They just pulled that from Sisko’s subconscious. 😂

Philbot

That hilarious Pimp hand comment broke them.. lol

Philbot

Beam it out.

SetsunaYuki

I guess I thought the Defiant would have been spoiled on some cover art or something for the DVDs, my bad.

Philbot

It hasn’t been on Netflix in 🇺🇸 the states for years?

Philbot

I liked B5 enough at like 12 but I don’t know how much it holds up? The Star Fox Graphics..

Philbot

Star Trek always does that. Doesn’t matter how bad the crash was they can get it back in the air. 🤷‍♂️

Greg Quinn

Disagree. He was hooked up in that matrix as well. So the actions he took in the simulation was what he himself would have done with the circumstances. He wasn't the same as the admiral. It was actually him taking the side of the jem'hadar when they beat the hell out of O'Brien.

Greg Quinn

How's that a spoiler? The galaxy class was destroyed in the last season. The Defiant taking out the ships just happened in the episode covered here.

Laura Thornley

This episode does something clever I think, by masking the fact that the A and B plots are reversed. Odo is the A plot, Sisko is the B plot! Because ultimately its Odo's story that resolves Sisko's.

Laura Thornley

Mostly, but with subtle inaccuracies. Garak is never that direct with his insinuations and Quark loves to drop in Rules of Acquisition that no-one else has ever heard. But since they are constructs of what the captive crew know about them, it makes sense - Bashir knows Garak is a spy, so the constructive knows its a spy.

DRedd

The spoiler comment got deleted

ConditionsCloudy

I forgot that Frakes directed this one! What a marvelous episode. Loved seeing your expressions multiple times throughout this one. So very truly excited to journey further into this season again.

Loot Narsbaar

I also have a counter-argument to this that I can't make rn because of spoilers. Point is we've all been guilty of this at some point and we should really think about what our takes may imply even if no harm is intended.

Laura Thornley

I'll also say its hard not to spoil things when I love a show this much, but because I love it so much I'm doing my best to not 'talk ahead' so to speak. Just got to revel in each episode as it comes.

Carsten Tassilo Gräbe

I find the ship dynamics that have developed here interesting. Runabouts < Cardassian patrol ships (presumably due to O'Brien's abduction) < Cardassian destroyers/cruisers (whatever threatened the station in the early episodes). But the Cardassian workhorses are low-tech. Heavy frontal weapons and hulls. Maquis raiders, due to their maneuverability, are perfect against the Cardassian destroyers/cruisers. However, they have little armor/hull, so the runabouts (and possibly Cardassian patrol ships) are more than equal. The high-tech galaxy, with its strong shields and all-around phasers, is practically invincible for Maquis raiders. Cardassian ships can't withstand the tropedo firepower, so they need numerical superiority.(Yes, not all Tropedoes are the same, but we've already seen what a large Federation ship can do against them.) These Dominion ships ignore shields, which makes them good against the Federation. Additionally, they are maneuverable. Runabouts, Cardassian patrol ships, and Maquis raiders are the logical answer. However, since the runabouts did relatively little damage, Maquis raiders without tropedos are out. That leaves runabouts, patrol ships, and the new escort ship. It would be interesting to consider the personnel requirements. Runabouts can manage well with just one or two people.

Loot Narsbaar

Eddington was presumably left in charge of the station

Loot Narsbaar

This has to be one of you guys' best discussions. I think you're gonna like this show.

Trillhouse

Alex really does need to give himself more credit overall. Not only did he call it in passing in part 1, in part 2 he also said out of the gate that it would be great if the Changlings ended up being evil and Odo chooses his friends at the end. Also ironically, he's giving the show so little credit that he doesn't think that the actual subversions are what the writers would end up doing.

Numinous2019

The script has both Sisko and Kira stating the Defiant by name as they beam up at the end. That should indicate it is going to feature again. The real question is why would the Dominion bring it to orbit the Changling home world and how do Sisko and crew get back to DS9 in a damaged ship.

Summer

Yes in Sanctuary the second mention of the Dominion was by the Skreans who were ‘liberated’ by the Dominion then just happened to choose Bajor

Numinous2019

I guess Sisko reached the rank of Commander by knowing what to leave out of his official reports. It is a very interesting and amusing point you made.

Trillhouse

Fun fact: the TNG battle bridge was actually just the TMP bridge redressed, so it actually didn't cost much. Your point still stands though. People really do need to be more careful focusing their comments.

Summer

Well not where I live, never found it there

Martin Bohnet

To be fair, most of us know about set redresses from Memory Alpha or reading elsewhere, so back then we likely were not as aware of what was expensive and what wasn't, like the Battle bridge of the D being a motion picture redress. Add to the mix: at the time, the TNG-Movie was about to be released, so there was a chance that we unknowingly got redresses from whatever that movie may use..

LonghillAndy

I thought I recognised you from that obsidian order meeting the other day 😜 😂

David Kirk

I guess the Dominion kept the ship not too damaged and intact in case their simulations showed the Federation was okay with making a treaty as shown.

Crewman #6

1:09:08 please drop in a clip from Vortex when Odo got clonked with a boulder for the edit :D "Where's Nog?" *Looks at wiki* oh! ... but I can't say :) There's plenty of time for the details of the Dominion to be laid down. It's sad that despite your reminders and talks that you still get future implications. So uh. Yeah, just a lotta shifty eyes between those of us in the audience in response to your theorising.

Summer

Just saw an interview on the 7th rule with the actress who plays Nachaev, nothing on this episode but good. She is fun, and clearly a good actress (this was reviewing Descent part 1)

Loot Narsbaar

Agree. I'm sorry if I'm being an asshole because I think many were attempting to be careful, but I'm protective of the Patron takes and don't want them to go away.

Loot Narsbaar

My head canon with the combadge is the only thing you really need is like a tiny processor and the other 99% he forms with his body

Todd

DS9 still is sorely lacking female presenting characters in proportion to the male characters. Having the female changeling and Nechayev as any type of representation is fine by me even though it is villainous. Salome Jens also appeared in the TNG episode The Chase as a member of the race responsible for populating the galaxy.

Summer

So thanks to you guys on any reactor YouTube page I am being tighter on potential spoilers

Greg Quinn

Hes plugged into the matrix. When Odo gets in he is one of the people hooked up.

BN13

I think after learning that Odo's people are the Founders of the Dominion, it adds another layer to the scene in Part 1 where Odo growls at Quark. Yes Odo is near his limit of having to morph into a liquid, is being strongly called home, and is dealing with the loss of his job. But I think we get a glimpse here of the Founders true nature and how they actually view the solids: "I have no interest in speaking to you, or listening to your witless prattle! So stay out of my way, or you'll regret the day you ever met me!" This part of their nature was probably surfacing in Odo because the gene drawing him home was activated. Maybe it was making him act more like a typical Founder? This would also explain why the lives of everyone on the Defiant didn't seem to matter in comparison to getting home while he was being called.

Back Flip Bet

"similar to how the romulans did to Riker" 😭😭😭😭😂😂 bro that was an alien child with a spirit Halloween Roswell grey mask and super long fingers. The romulans were a fake out.

Miranda

I'm catching up after the break. Glad you liked this one! I love that the Changelings are running a simulation to see how much power they could grab in the Alpha Quadrant through "diplomacy", and how they are slowly turning up the heat, to make the demands crazier and crazier. Testing Starfleet's limit. I love how they plugged Sisko into their mind-reading device and apparently saw that he thought Nechayev was evil. Ha! According to Ira Steven Behr, they told Rene Auberjonois that Odo was going to find his people in this episode and he was disappointed, thinking it shut off possible explorations of his character. He was much happier when he realized what the writers were really doing with this. Yeah, this actually opens a LOT more story possibilities for him. I definitely laughed at your wrap up of the first part, when Alex thought Odo's people were going to save the day, and Josh thought it would just be a standalone story. I knew then that this would be a fun one to watch.

GreenCauldron08

Hahahaha I laughed so hard at that one-two-punch of "Dammit why did they get rid of Ron Moore WHAAAAAA JONATHAN FRAKES!!!!"

MJBull

Alex did speculate on the correct plot point at the end.

MJBull

Vader's advanced TIE fighter spinning out in the void during the Battle of Yavin is one of the most obvious sequel teases in the history of cinema Can you really be spoiled that he is in the next movie? On the other hand, the Dominion allowing the Defiant to continue to exist and be given back to our protagonists is a baffling decision in universe.

Phenomenon (Doo - Dooo - Dah - Doo - Doo)

What I noticed during this rewatch was that when simulated-Jake was talking with his dad in their quarters, he asked - (Fake Jake) "There's something going on, isn't there?" (Sisko) "Like what?" (Fake Jake) "You tell me" But before Sisko can answer, Dax burst in complaining about her sudden transfer orders. The Dominion was not only seeing what kind of response they could expect from Sisko, they were also using the image of his son to probe him more directly for information. This is one of the many benefits of rewatching these series alongside you guys -- I find myself using a far more critical eye rather than relying on comfortable memories

Utterlee

I think the frustration in the Patreon Takes over the Defiant's significance to the series being spoiled is quite interesting. The fans old enough to see the show when it first went out had a lot more context around things that were introduced to the series, changes each season, old characters returning etc were given lots of publicity and were well trailed, so whilst the episode doesn't necessarily flag the Defiant is going to turn up again, the fans watching at the time would have known from the Marketing that it absolutely would be. So the entirely spoiler free way in which Josh and Alex are (reasonably) wanting to watch all of Star Trek, was entirely impossible for the fans who followed the series originally. Hence frustration at guest starts being "spoiled" in the opening credits - we all knew they were coming at the time thanks to trailers and magazine articles, so these weren't spoilers originally at all.

Loot Narsbaar

It's pretty clear the changelings don't want to piss Odo off and they are giving him this favor at his request.

jon bolton

Josh, you summed it up nicely on your whiteboard, i doubt too many fans will disagree this episode is definitely important.

jon bolton

You spoke about the cast of the two shows knowing each other, Terry Farrell has said before getting the role of Dax she was already friends with Jonathan Frakes, Marina Sirtis, and Michael Dorn.

Prof Moff

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version 1ST from prof Moff (the perv) I want to have a go at Admiral Nechayev. Good god she is hot,, stupid but hot. To be clear I want to bend her over a chair..... Not the Fin she gives everyone else The sex score board Quark 4 Jadzia 2 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 GUEST: DETAILS:

TrekWars

You must love the new generation of Star Trek shows.

uberelder

the amount of indirect spoilers even in the patron takes is wild to see lol