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UNCUT - Equilibrium (DS9 S3E4) | Star Trek Journey 332 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-01-14 21:00:52
Edited:
2026-01-15 17:00:06
Imported:
2026-09
Tags:
stj

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Matchstick Jose

To help ease the integration of Joran into the Dax personality matrix, Jadzia will now choose one person on DS9 a week to murder. Up first, Morn.

JordanK1991

Definitely not my favourite of the season, but I'm glad you guys enjoyed it. I always felt it was an okay episode (and a necessary one for Jadzia's character growth + Trill lore), but overall, it sorta pales when taken in context of the entire season. Definitely a few fun moments though. I like the intro of this one a lot.

Matchstick Jose

Looking at the first 4 episodes of the season (plus the next one), you can perhaps see the DS9 writers trying to lure TNG viewers in by setting all or part of the stories off the station (Founders’ homeworld, Qo'noS, Trill, Cardassia). It’s like, see? We don’t just sit. We go places!

Summer

Maybe that is my real issue with this episode no Chief

Summer

Tiriaz was the one who died in an accident the fifth host

KR Thompson

If you think about it, the selection for the Trill hosts IS still incredibly restricted and a special achievement. At least until and unless Sisko goes public or the secret escapes or something, those selection barriers are still in place. It’s just that the restriction is entirely socially enforced — like winning the Olympics or being awarded a Nobel peace prize — rather than being a biologically reinforced requirement as the Trill populace has been told.

Sam Langanke

The Dax hosts seen or mentioned so far: Lela, Tobin, Torias (No. 5), Jarad (No. 6), Curzon (No. 7), Jadzia (No. 8) . So we now know there were eight, that leaves two still missing. I guess Verad ('Invasive Procedures') doesn't count because he had the Dax symbiont only a few hours and wasn't fully joined, whatever that means.

Cory Paton

TNG to Enterprise are all what the cast and crew call “letter perfect” - a script supervisor would be on set at all times and ensure that the script was followed word for word, any deviation means you do another take till its right. Improv was not allowed, period.

Target Audience

Genuine question - improv is its own distinct style, but what if it was just a style of saying it? Like the line is “Come in, have a seat” but they said “Come in” and gestured to the seat? Would they instantly yell cut? lol

Target Audience

Good point, I think I may like social enforcement more anyway tbh

Jon1701

Runs out of story a bit. Too much of Sisko and Bashir running around at the end.

Cory Paton

My understanding from various interviews and podcasts is that it was that strict but people could be exaggerating. Also its possible that small things like that could slip through if shooting deadlines started creeping up! Ive definitely heard multiple cases of an actor or director wanting a line changed while shooting and basically that involved getting approval from the producers/showrunners

JordanK1991

Not even a B for me. If I had to grade it like Alex and Josh do at the end of each season, I would give Equilibrium a C. Basically, a passing grade.

Matchstick Jose

Probably they would yell cut. From what the actors have said, directors generally left them alone to read the lines the way they wanted since they were the expert on their characters. They just had to say exactly what was on the page.

misti-step

if josh and alex ever played one of those star trek rpgs, i think josh would play as a trill 😅

Worf and Riker Ride Again

I'd love it if the music Jadzia starts playing at the beginning is the DS9 theme

temsik28

Didn't realize that was Jeff McBride! So funny they got him as a guest just for this gimmic. I'll add a youtube link to my favorite performance. Love how he can produce infinite playing cards out of nowhere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIqpGnBz5yA

Trekkie74205

I like this episode. I also noticed Bashir grew up when we weren't looking. His friendship with Chief has become genuine and now we see so much progress with him and Dax. He doesn't hit on her inappropriately anymore. She cares for him and is comfortable enough to sleep in his quarters.

Phenomenon (Doo - Dooo - Dah - Doo - Doo)

For a Chief-less episode, I like this one more than most do. I liked the mystery of what was happening to Dax with the waking nightmares, as well as the reveal that the Symbiosis Commission were not as squeaky clean as they would have us believe. More lore is always better than less lore, whether the "L" is a capital "L" or not

Phenomenon (Doo - Dooo - Dah - Doo - Doo)

The masks in Jadzia's waking dreams represented her previous hosts and the fact that Joran's memories and personality was hiding (or buried) among them. Once the last "mask" was pulled away and she stared Joran in the face, Jadzia went into shock because the unlocked memories were messing up her medical technobabble levels

Ryan

Interesting how during The Search, you guys were talking about Sisko doing the Good Starfleet Captain thing and not going after Chief and Dax on the planet. In this episode it seems like the Good Starfleet Captain thing would either be to expose the conspiracy of silence around hosts and symbionts or to say "Prime Directive, we can't interfere," and instead he weaponizes it specifically to save a crew member. Maybe he heard you talking? Better episode than I remembered! Of course I didn't really remember it, so low bar, but it still cleared it.

Sam Langanke

Trill is a member of the Federation. The Prime Directive doesn't apply.

Ryan

Oops, duh, yeah. I still think they’d usually say something about “it’s your internal security problem” or something, though.

tyranusfan

I would have found it funny if the tub scene had ended like Friday the 13th, with Joran coming out of the water and dragging Jadzia down, then her waking up!

Tim Nikiforovs

Sisko "Kai Winn, I have a pressing situation I need to discuss with you in person. Could you come to DS9.............this Saturday? Around noon let's say."

Jonathon Tsagris

I don't think the secret is a question of corruption - because there are so few symbionts; the Trill government wants to make sure that there is a rigorous selection process to ensure that only the very best and brightest get them, that way the symbiont gets the most out of the joining. If everyone knew that half the population was capable of being joined that system would break down.

Jonathon Tsagris

So I think you guys are a little mixed up. We have Torias dax, who died from injuries sustained in a shuttle accident - Jadzia says early in the episode that he was in a coma for 6 months before he died, but the implication is that this is a cover up for the Joran period. Joran was given the symbiont by accident, he was a sociopath and a murderer. The circumstances by which he came to have to get the Dax Symbiont are unknown. DAX was removed from him and put into Curzon.

Jonathon Tsagris

I feel like being a guardian is a bit like deciding to become a monk or something.

Jonathon Tsagris

I think it’s a question of intent. Here the lie appears to be in service of the greater good; at least given the information we’re presented with.

Target Audience

Corruption is dishonest conduct by those in power. That’s what is happening. It doesn’t mean they don’t have good intentions or don’t believe it is for the greater good. Both can be true.

Darren

I’ve always liked this one - it’s never going to win awards as the best episode and maybe its a little overlooked but it’s a competent well made story.

paultardspambot .

The "six month coma" never happened. That was the missing time when the symbiont was in Joran.

paultardspambot .

"they could put into anyone else" Even a human like Riker who was basically overwhelmed by the symbiont but there was still some Riker in there

paultardspambot .

"at no point reading a book am I like wahh" Then you haven't read the right books

paultardspambot .

ok, don't mean to get political, but loving your enemies is definitely not "woke" "Woke" is hating everyone who doesn't live up to impossible standards. It's the opposite. Looking for whatever mistake you can find to crucify people. (I don't mean people that are legitimately doing awful things, I mean people who basically agree with you but have the wrong haircut or something. Universal love and acceptance is definitely not it)

Tim Nikiforovs

Solid episode, if a little dull. It does provide some meaningful developments in Trill lore and also Dax lore, so I can forgive slower pacing. I also think it's interesting to compare Sisko's conduct here to what he did in The Search, especially since both involved Jadzia possibly dying. I don't think either was about whether Sisko sticks to protocol like a good starfleet officer or not. He straight up blackmailed Quark in the pilot, so he's certainly willing to bend/break rules when he deems it necessary. In The Search however, he understood the gravity of their mission and what war with the dominion would mean, so he weighed the millions of people who could die against Dax and O'Brien and decided to leave them, hoping they were just taken prisoner. But to sacrifice Jadzia to cover up the Trill's dirty little secret? To play politics? Not a chance. Now I get why the Trill cover up how many are compatible, though I expect even if the secret got out they'd just have to massively increase security around the symbiote pools. However you might get a lot more cases of people trying to steal symbiotes like Verad did. Sisko gets that too, but he's not going to sacrifice Jadzia or anyone else to protect that secret, so he uses it as leverage instead. I can't see Picard doing that. Maybe Riker. Kirk would in a heartbeat. It'll be interesting to see if having this cold, murderous personality as a previous host changes or plays into Jadzia's character at all, or if the writers just kind of forget about it. And yes, Bashir has come a long way in terms of maturity in the past 2 seasons. He may still be crushing on Jadzia, but he puts their friendship first. Overall, I give it a C+ for Competent

THE Fans

My closest friend is an ENFP/ESFP personality... Marilyn Monroe basically... also, Jadzia. They love and accept everyone, that type, I mean. They especially love the freedom to love and would only give it up for someone special. My friend also can have a fierce temper... which seems to go with that type. They are a very rare type.

Joe Concepts

It's a good story and episode, but it definitely is a slow one. I feel like too much of the reveal/solution was crammed in at the end. Maybe less of her visions and time on the station earlier would've given us time for her reaction that you guys were hoping for. And all we see of this huge cover up in Trill society is one mostly nice doctor hiding what she knows. Should have been more of a big deal.

Reality Strikes

LOL!!! I see Alex used my toilet paper!!!!

Guernsey

I hate when my medical technobabble levels get all messed up.

Reality Strikes

The age old story of the authoritarian. “We are doing it for the greater good “

Ashley Sigmon

Bashir has the most character growth of any Star Trek character I can think of, at least off the top of my head.

Jonathon Tsagris

No, corruption is dishonest conduct by those in power *for personal gain*. The specifics of what took place re Joran and the coverup with Dax were handled very badly, but there is a strong argument to be made that maintaining that secret is in the best interests of Trill Society. Ultimately a government's job is to be everyone's parents - to do what needs to be done to make sure everyone is healthy and safe. We have state secrets for a reason - just like parents don't tell their kids absolutely everything or give them a say in absolutely everything, so too a responsible government has to keep secrets sometimes.

Naglfarius

Deep Space Fine checks out.

Forbidden Donut

"Fine" is pretty much where I land. The episode isn't as engaging or interesting as it seems on paper, but it's not bad.

Captkirc

Redlettermedia just did their first ever DS9 video (released literally 2 hours ago) and the TrekMovie article about reactions gets a shout out and right in the center is the picture of you an Alex and they even said they’ve watched some of the reactions. You guys really have hit the big time

TC Green

This episode is fine. But I also give it leeway as I always do with all Dax episodes

Loot Narsbaar

“Woke” is being aware of social injustice. Nothing more.

Loot Narsbaar

The number one reason they brought the Defiant onto the show is that once the Dominion was done kicking it’s ass it would allow the crew to escape the station now and then and tell different types of stories that you couldn’t do if everyone were traveling in a roundabout

Pixels At Dawn

I think the main problem in this episode is that they had to skip through to the end because they ran out of time. If they had an extra 15 minutes, they could explore the Joran/Jadzia relationship much more. But this is what happens with the fixed-length traditional show. I still really like it though.

Drake

the man in the mask is the former Dax host, the man killed is the doctor that the brother mentions was murdered,

Matthew Ganz

On the communication aspect: Warp speed is used for physical propulsion -- moving from point A to point B, but subspace is what is used for sending messages. I can't go further in depth without spoiling certain things -- but subspace is a term that has been used before. In fact a few episodes have lines that are "get me xxx person on subspace".

TC Green

Just a warning it is filled with spoilers throughout

Target Audience

Ok yes I remember that term, but how tf does it work and what are the limits? Can I call someone on Earth from Betazed?

Target Audience

Ironically I thought the pacing came to a screeching halt once Jadzia was taken out, so it felt stretched.

Target Audience

Fair argument. I’d say what qualifies as “personal gain” is very blurry. As an earth example, if the government actually discovered proof of alien life and did not tell its people, is that corruption? It’s a good question.

Deep Red

I suppose they could use something like what it is used in the Mass Effect games. Something called Quantum Entanglement. Basically the message piggy backs off of quantum bundles all the way to the final destination of the message. To put it in VERY simple terms lol

Jaymison Boeker

There is spoilers for DS9, Voyager, and future trek shows. They should not watch it.

Nolan

I think they could have played up Joran's muder past a bit more. Yeah, the masks halluccinations were cool and a great symbol for hiding among the hosts, but how much more visually arresting would it be for Jadzia to hallucinate a brutal murder scene, the confrontation, I dunno. I mean, the brother says Joran has a violent temper, but what we see is a cold, calculated, sneaky kill. I think punching that up would've brought the episode up a bit. Maybe this one needed an extra draft or two to hone it.

Deep Red

That is definitely not what "woke" means. It comes from african american slang. As Loot Narsbaar put it, it is being aware of social injustice. AKA you are "awake". As usual, people have co-opted and corrupted the term in modern parlance. I don't know anyone who uses "woke" to actually describe themselves. It's always other people calling others "woke" in a derogatory fashion.

jon bolton

The one you forgot was Torias Dax! Don't worry guys you'll remember them all one day lol. For me this is yet another A, but a lower ranking A than The Search, and The House Of Quark.

Avaria

The you're-going-to-hate-it answer is that it's inconsistent relative to the needs of the episode. In general, you can speak to the local area in real time; an extended area with some delay/interference/static; and long distance requires waiting for a response. The signal can be boosted by relays (think cell towers). So, yes, in TNG/DS9 times you probably could talk to Batazed from Earth (they're relatively close together and in a strong coverage area), but not to Bajor (farther away, more isolated).

Greg Quinn

Kinda feel like they should have at least made note that she contacted the brother. But no biggie. I can assume that happened off camera.

Matchstick Jose

It's definitely governed by speed of plot only. There is no delay in real-time communication between DS9 and Earth if the plot demands it.

Ricky

"Uprise of the Guardians". That's a damn fine title lol Also, I presume the "nearly half" of their population is a conservative estimate. I'm going to bet it's like having big oil do their own research on their environmental impact. I suspect the number is closer to a majority of their population, if not 100%, and the whole process is just prejudice. Either way, I think the process is based on prejudice. Also, do you think that maybe the Symbiote population is controlled? If that were the case, I think that is a great way to distinguish social classes/how "special" certain Trills are. Keep the Symbiote population low and maintain the social strata. Perhaps the Symbiotes want their population controlled to maintain how "special" they are or as a means of protecting themselves, and this plot of theirs they are able to hide from their host. I think there's a lot of great material to really expand on the Trills and Symbiotes.

Avaria

23rd century vs. 24th century maybe? Deep down I suspect Kirk would have opted for exposure in similar circumstances (with some variation on serves them right for concealing the truth), regardless of how disruptive it might be. Sisko (and almost certainly Picard), whose command training seems to include a greater emphasis on soft skills, instead uses the secret knowledge as leverage in negotiation towards the desired result.

jon bolton

Even though i really like this one, the Chief missing was noticeable, but as Josh said, in my head i was picturing him visiting Keiko on Bajor, and helping her settle in.

Avaria

I think a lot of it stems from trying to hit the prescribed episode time so precisely. Not just the full run time, but also each segment between the commercial breaks. You'll notice most episodes only vary in length by a handful of seconds. They had to stay pretty rigidly on those rails. If you let the actors play around too much with blocking and delivery, it can muck up the timing of the entire episode.

Scarpad’s Domain

I'll have to admit i snoozed a little during tis episode its a bit of a snoozer

Scarpad’s Domain

thats definitely not woke but i dislike that word as its a perjoritive and should not be but thats enough of that as we should not get into politics here

Summer

Hadn’t thought about his being gone despite seeing this many times, his being with Keiko makes sense

Nolan

Going back to your FAVORITE TNG S6 episode "Aquiel," that was set on a subspace relay station. So presumably, subspace messages get passed along on a relay network, and depending on the priority, it can be instantaneous, but likely chews up all the bandwidth of all the relay stations it goes through, delaying other messages.

Jeff Cornell

The "official story" is that Torias Dax was badly injured in a shuttle accident, and was in a coma for 6 months before Dax was transferred to Curzon. The reality is that Torias died in the shuttle accident and Dax was immediately given to Joran. 6 months later, Joran was killed and Dax was given to Curzon after having its memory of Joran blocked out. They made up the story of Torias being in a coma to explain the 6 month gap in Dax's memory and official history. Most of Joran's history was erased from the record. They only kept the date of his birth and the date of his death. But Sisko noticed that Joran died on the same day that Curzon received Dax, which was also the same (falsified) day listed as Torias's death.

Pixels At Dawn

Maybe they needed to reorder it a bit to find that extra space?

Ryan

That's a great point. '90s Star Trek was a product of its geopolitical time -- "the world is peaceful; let's just keep it that way." There was a lot more emphasis on soft power. Or maybe Sisko was just reading Picard's autobiography in his down time.

Captkirc

Yeah 100% they can’t watch it because of spoilers but it’s still super cool RLM gave a shoutout to the article and even had warm feelings about Josh and Alex’s generation appreciation of classic Trek. Also was really cool they actually watched some of the reactions

KingPin124

Whatever you want to call it, NOT telling the population is very likely the right decision. Remember the episode Invasive Procedures when Verad hires mercenaries to steal Dax? That kind of thing would be happening every day! Like the doc lady says, they would become commodities. People would literally kill for them.

paultardspambot .

They're not very consistent about this, but the official answer is there are communications through "subspace" which allow for FTL communications but they need relays to do this so there are limits.

sword bard

This is a *really* complicated way to learn to play the piano.

paultardspambot .

I think this gets down to two slightly different definitions of the word. The definition people whp say its not corruption is the specific one where 'corruption" means when an official gives personal favors in execution of their duty in exchange for some personal benefit. An example would be if a company gives money to an elected representative directly in exchange for voting in a way that would benefit them. Or in a process to select a company to get a government contract, a company gives money to people responsible for the decision to pick them. Under this definition, doing something dishonest for the general good of the people is not corrupt. Its not for the politician's personal benefit but for what they genuinely think is the social good. Corruption is where the politician isnt thinking of the general good, only their self interest. That is usually the sense the way the word is used in respect to governance. However, there is another, loose and more general definition, in which something is "impure" or "tainted" (which the former definition is derived from)m and this is the definition TA is using. In that sense, the idea is that there is a general principle, certainly one held true in the Federation of which Trill is a part, that "the first duty is to the truth", and that a process sponsored by the state and an essential part of society is what it claims to be, and this more general sense of "corrupt" is the later definition.

sword bard

I like to imagine that the whole time all this is going on, back on the station Odo is still awkwardly trying to stir a bowl of food because nobody ever came back to tell him to stop

Some Guy

Beets are terrible vegetables

BN13

My interpretation of why the hallucination/memory scenes were so weird, is that our dreams are expressions of both memories and emotions and warnings that something is off. I think all of the masked figures were representing that the dax simbiote was feeling like something very scary was being hidden. So that emotion mixed with the actual memories in the dreams in the form of scary masked figures.

paultardspambot .

notes from Memory Alpha- As someone mentioned, the inspiration for this episode was from the magic show of Jeff McBride who plays Joran. Michael Piller saw Mcbride's show, loved it, and commissioned his friend, Christopher Teague, to come up with a story based on it. McBride's act involved the removal of masks from what appears to be a single mask to reveal multiple layers of masks underneath. The original story by Teague was about a traveling space circus with a magician who winds up being involved a murder, a mystery involving the use of magic to hide it, but the DS9 writing staff wasn't keen on the idea. Echevarria change the focus of the story to Odo and a mystery involving a series of disturbing dreams which were clues emerging from his subconscious, but Moore (who was involved in the writing after all) suggested switching the focus from Odo to Jadzia as the central image of a series of masks revealing other masks fit more with the concept of the trill. Echevarria based the scene with Dax in the pool on the play Equus. Originally, the vegetable Bashir disliked was supposed to be rutabagas as a tribute to Frank Zappa from the song "Call Any Vegetable" but Echevarria thought beets were funnier (possibly inspired by the nickelodeon show "Doug"?) It's interesting Alex mentioned the appearance of the Defiant's bridge as this episode featured some changes in design which would stay to make it look more defined and "starfleetish". Behr mentioned it featured the Bashir-Dax relationship evolving beyond him wanting to bang her which he was thankful for as he didnt like that angle and the way it came across previously. He agreed with TA that it was expositionn heavy because of the complex nature of the mystery but felt it worked as Terry Farell was great at expressing both Jadzia's vulnerability and strength. Quote from Echevarria that speaks very much to the way the guys felt, that he seemed to feel the same way, and why that was. "I think there were a lot of interesting things about the Trill homeworld that you found out in the episode. I'm not sure how well it played out as a mystery, though. In order to be satisfying, you want the audience to conk themselves on the forehead and say 'Why didn't I think of that?' and I'm not sure if they do. It was a troubled script in that we were writing stuff that was filming the next day three or four days into the shoot. We had locked down certain scenes that we would have liked to have changed the new climax, and so on, The more the script was rewritten over and over again, it just kept losing focus and regaining focus. It's just one of those things where you're trying real hard to make it work, but ultimately you're not satisfied with the end result. It's an intriguing idea, and the episode holds up pretty well in some of its elements, but it's not quite satisfying in the last couple of acts. It becomes too much of Bashir and Sisko running around investigating the mystery rather than concentrating on the character of Dax" I find the idea of how the tight deadlines effected the how interesting, and cant help but wonder whether more time would ultimately result in a beter show (or if something is lost without the time constraint and pressure. I know some of the better things I've written were when there was a time crunch and I didn't have time to overthink or rewrite and just had to go with the flow.) But its also funny how Echevarria's thoughts mirrored the thoughts of TA so closely. I suppose they have seen enough Star trek to have some similar thoughts about what the end result should look like and what kind of pitfalls it should get into, though I definitely don't agree with "here comes to the plot" which I think only applies when like in TNG they had to through in the sci fi problem of the week when the main interest was a character story, but I totally disagree that is the case when it's the "epic, big plot" stuff of DS9. Alexander Siddig was quite fond of this one. I like the medical ones because, after all, that's what I was hired to do. I play a doctor. It's really nice to actually get around to doing those occasionally, as long as the language isn't too horrific. When it gets too complicated, it totally fries my mind. I don't think it was too harsh in that show. I particularly liked it because it offset the usual Dax/Bashir relationship for the first time. It actually showed everybody that we could possibly be good friends and that's what might happen between them. As far as I know, people have accepted that quite readily. People quite like the friendliness of their relationship now. It's like Bashir is second best, almost good enough, silver medal" Too funny, from the "Continuity" section- "This is the first episode to reveal that Sisko is from New Orleans, to feature the Trill homeworld and to show that Jadzia's spots do go down to her feet, as they can be seen briefly in shots of her on the hospital bed. " Does TA promise they didn't read memory alpha for this one? lol The Trill capital city while not named in this episode is shown on star charts as "Mak'ala"

Redjac

the known host before curzon wasn't 6 months in a coma. 6 months before curzon got dax the host died and dax was given to joran belar. joran become unstable 6 months later and dax was transfered to curzon. so they changes the host before joran day of death to jorans.

Paul

This is a "meat and potatoes" kind of episode, but with a large side of Broccoli. Healthy, important to eat, cooked decently well with a bit of char so it's still tasty, but overall... a bit dull in certain spots. Still, given all the lore and excellent character scene with Bashir and Jadzia, I have to give it a low B. Insightful Patron take by BN13, well done. WOKE CAREBEAR!!

Philbot

On rewatch this felt weaker they should have played up the murder and been more clear about who did what and why? And maybe Dax should have played detective not been prone on a table while the boys are sleuthing.

Laura Thornley

I think the implication with the Keeper is he's so absorbed in his work he's not had time to go back to the surface in a long time.

BN13

There's a famous interview from a later guest star where he kept saying "well, that ought to do it" when the script said only "that ought to do it," and they wouldn't let him say "well" without officially changing the script and getting approval for a changed line.

Philbot

I was calling him Torial like Berial.

Erik L Jerks

This is a big concept episode that doesn't really put a lot of energy or stakes into the actual 3rd act. It starts off great, and give Dax something to do. I feel like they could have kept that attitude and lack of emotional control throughout the episode. If she got to the point where she was going to murder the other doctor you could have Sisko and Bashir working to stop her. Maybe a bit too much like the Odo turns heel episode though.

Philbot

More like Eye of the Beholder TNG. I don’t know if being a psycho really comes across. It seems more like a crime of passion.

Philbot

Yea there’s a TNG episode.. I think the defector ? Where JLP get a “BAdmiral” message they leave it like a voicemail..

Philbot

Could have cut some hallucinations.. more agency from Dax would have helped.

Todd

So, let's go back, Starfleet is able to have real time communications due to subspace relay stations which boost signals. There was one in the TNG episode Aquiel. I would assume that for a planet, they would have to patch into some type of planetary network, which I believe Bashir did to contact Yolad. The character moments are nice in this episode. I like the little bits about Julian too (my favorite DS9 character) but he is so warm here and genuinely concerned for Jadzia. With the Trill, it does seem like the society might have a few flaws of its own. Since there is so much emphasis placed on the Symbiosis commission and everything and the lengths they go to to protect information. I wonder if there are some other unsavory bits.

Numinous2019

That's a really interesting and most likely correct interpretation of the masked figures.

MJBull

Are the entrance exams to Starfleet Academy based on just prejudice? They might just be trying to find the Trills who would benefit most from the symbiont's experiences and who will give the symbionts the best experiences. It is an attempt at a meritocratic sorting.

MJBull

It tends to work at the speed of plot. At times you can get real time communications, at others it can takes days or weeks. In TOS "Balance of Terror", for instance, the message from Starfleet that Kirk is authorized to act on his own discretion arrives after the Romulan ship is defeated.

MJBull

I love that cope, as the people who use "woke" positively also like the idea that language evolves, at least when redefining words suits their purposes.

MJBull

Josh forgets the name of Kahless...the Unforgettable.

MJBull

Other reviewers have mentioned that the way the Symbionts work is a mild telepathic ability. Perhaps the Keepers become a little mentally touched by being surrounded by telepaths constantly.

MJBull

Yes, but we still get fiction that claims that "noble" lies are good, at least in some circumstances.

reactive1

Joran Dax (not Jarad).

reactive1

As for subspace communications… Federation space occupies a very small percentage of the Alpha Quadrant with an overlap into the Beta Quadrant. There are subspace relays set up all throughout Federation space (we saw one in “Aquiel”). Evidently, this network extends into the Klingon Empire, perhaps due to their treaty with the Federation.

Dr. Paul Stubbs

Sorry about the mid-episode name change, I am new and decided that Dr. Stubbs would be more fun to roleplay than Dr. Quiace. Re-watching this with the commentary, I still don't like the ending where Jadzia integrates with Joran. I don't see how Joran is much/any different from Verad in Invasive Procedures, aside from the fact that he lived as Dax for longer. Did Jadzia/Dax have to embrace her Verad persona as well? I don't remember her having a fondness for that guy or incorporating him into her host "canon" back in that episode... That said, props again to BN13. That's a great take and had me re-thinking things, like Picard in I, Borg.

Dr. Paul Stubbs

This was my reading as well. In fact, I think all the masked figures are just Joran. As he removes the masks, it represents Jadzia working through her memory blocks towards the repressed host. The first few masks completely cover his face. The final one has eye holes, which reveal a bit more of who is hiding underneath. I'm pretty sure this final mask is the same one we see both on the station and when Joran is finally revealed during the murder scene memory.

BN13

With my patron take, I agree with you that all of that doesn't really come from the episode, and it's probably not going to be something that you think about in a first watch through. But if you're like me, and you watched these shows countless times over 30+ years, you find more and more messages, and more and more real life in them as time goes on. For me personally, I think I've gotten to a point by now to where not a day goes by that I don't link something random happening in my day to a scene in Star Trek.

LonghillAndy

Not one mention in the takes of Odo’s mixing skills with the bowl 🥣 😂

Shugadonk

From the end of Invasive Procedures, Dax: "I remember it all, Benjamin. Everything he thought... everything he did... and it's so... sad. I guess he'll always be with me." She definitely at least felt sympathy for him, and carried on his memories at the end of that episode, so I'd say its not too dissimilar to this episode.

Dr. Paul Stubbs

Good call. Maybe it's not outside Jadzia's character at all then. Just a lot more visceral seeing her directly embrace Joran vs. talk about empathizing with Verad.

BN13

She still felt compassion and pity for Verad. Especially since she experienced everything from his perspective, so she knew his story. He was definitely wrong, and not a good person. But she understood that his story was "so sad" as she put it. And yes, she'll have that experience for the rest of her life. He IS no different from Joran in that sense. He's part of her too. They just didn't make a big deal about it because it was such a short time and she didn't have her memory of him erased or anything where they had to make a big deal about her accepting him. He was already integrated. And I think I should clarify that accepting somebody as they are, or loving somebody as a fellow human, doesn't mean that we shouldn't hold them accountable for their actions; let them off the hook because they're "poor innocent victims;" excuse everything that they do; pretend that they don't cause others harm; agree with all of their decisions; or even that we have to like the person. I'd actually argue that part of unconditional love is holding people responsible for their actions because part of unconditional love is respecting people's free will and autonomy, and holding them responsible does that. Actions have consequences, no matter what we choose. If we choose an action, we also choose the consequence. We aren't helping someone grow if we shield them from the consequences of their choices. That's actually a form of control, which is contrary to unconditional love. We can unconditionally love somebody from a place of shared life and humanity, even if we disagree with every choice they ever made, or we think that they are the worst person who has ever lived. This is because ultimately, all life is in the same boat. We're all equal to each other. None of us knows the full truth of our existence here. None of us has our life 100% right. We all make mistakes. We all get misled. We all make bad choices and harm others at some point. We all choose hate or fear over love and compassion. We all let anger or jealousy control us. We all choose service to ourselves over service to others. We all choose to try and control others actions or beliefs at some point instead respecting other's free will and right to choose. It's just that some of us do this far more than others. And we all pass judgement on others as if we're above them where, if you want to revisit the lesson from Tapestry, we could actually BE the very people we judge if our lives had turned out just a bit different. Everyone we see in our lives is a mirror of ourselves, and a lesson to learn, even if we hate them. And we all do this because ultimately, we're all stupid in the grand scheme of things. We're all doing the best we can while dealing with our own traumas and hard situations here. As a result, our personalities and everyday choices all lie on a vast spectrum ranging from good to bad. Some of us on the whole consistently make far better choices than others. And some of us consistently make self-serving, destructive, and unhealthy decisions to the point where they can even develop a psychosis. If somebody is really far off the deep end, we shouldn't try to hate these people. We should try to help these people grow in a better direction. Unfortunately, they are who they are due to their own free will. We can't FORCE them to be different, otherwise we are following the same path they chose. And they aren't likely to listen to anyone trying to help them. We just have to keep extending the helping hand, knowing that they'll try to bite it off, and protect ourselves from that happening. We need to set boundaries with these people and do whatever is necessary to protect society from them because they are dangerous. And we should hold them accountable for their actions. But ultimately, this should all be done not from a hatred of who they are and what they've done, but from a sincere desire for the person to learn from their mistakes and grow into someone better, even if we know they'll probably never choose that. Unconditional love is the desire to see everyone grow and improve, and the acknowledgement that even the worst of us are ultimately just struggling with life; sometimes to the point where it turns them into monsters. They should not be cast aside at that point, but pitied. That's the acceptance. We all began as infants, and we'll all die. Let's wish each other the best of luck as we all try to figure this life thing out.

Dr. Paul Stubbs

Hey, thanks for your detailed response. Very well reasoned and articulated. It's even more interesting in Jadzia/Dax's case, because as you put in your original comment, it is self-acceptance as much as it is accepting someone else. I guess I just wished this theme was explored in the episode. Like Josh and Alex, I didn't think of any of this stuff until I read your Patron take.

sword bard

To be fair, if you're a symbiont and your non-joined experience is just swimming around in a murky pool in a dark cave your whole life, you'd be super excited to experience life as someone like Tobin Dax, who Jadzia said was basically a nerd who didn't have sex but he knew a lot about phase coil inverters. Sooooo maybe we're overestimating what a symbiont thinks is "the best experience".

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

Reminder: Kahless was first introduced in TOS alongside Abraham Lincoln where they fought against each other in a savage battle royal HOW CAN YOU FORGET ANY OF THAT?! HOW?!

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

It is a little vague and inconsistent - largely whatever the writers need it to be. But in principle subspace works like the nether in minecraft where one unit of message traveling in subspace is equivalent to a lot more in real space. So subspace messages can travel faster than ships by a lot. However, over long distances subspace 'relays' are required, making it so the fringes of explored space (which lack that infrastructure) can still feel like the fringes where comms can take days and starfleet can't advise you on everything. In reality there should still be small delays in ALL conversations, but a 2 second delays doesn't make for good tv when having a conversation on a view screen so you either get real time communication or huge delays, and nothing in between.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

Love your enemies? Extend unconditional love and acceptance to the Cardassians?? Can only heal through accepting what they did on Setlik III?! This is not a Captain Maxwell approved ethos #RememberThePhoenix

Miranda

I agree with you that this episode is mostly fine, but a little boring. I really like the scene between Dax and Bashir in his quarters. Nice character work, which Rene Echevarria is very good at. I like the next episode quite a lot more. (Not a spoiler, since I know you've already seen it.)

ShazD

Ugh have to watch on Paramount + now as it's left Netflix and the video doesn't sync well anymore 😭. Also, "Zionistic"? Yikes.

E Parhas

My theory is originally the symbiotes were a parasite but they eventually evolved to work together. I can imagine in Trill's history maybe there was a noble class that was secretly joined

E Parhas

Picard pays for the 5G satellites to talk to Star Fleet, the average officer can only afford 4G LTE at best lol

BN13

I would have loved it if the episode really explored this theme! As well as more of Jadzia's reaction to the whole thing. But we got what we got. Not enough time to really explore all of that with the story that they wanted to tell.

Skye Maidstone

Nice to see Terry get a couple of nice scenes acting wise but I agree that this was a nice idea for a story that could have been executed better. I forgot this episode existed.

Derekm82

They have a full roll of toilet paper at the ready during the discussion! 🤣

Mark Chrisco

It's possible Jadzia is attracted to Julian, but, not the symbiot, or vice versa

TalynOne

I almost fell out of my chair when you said the Trill government murdered Joran. That's just a wild jump. The truth is we don't know how he died, but none of the conjectures I've heard is that the Trill government did it.

Martin Bohnet

I Seem to remember Joran died when escaping the crime scene of killing that guy. I don't remember if that was from "Lives of Dax" or more canon sources.

Lorne Pribbeno

When she first sees the figure, the masks he removes are to represent Jadzia and Curzon, since they both were before Joran. Its a great detail you would forget about, and only really catch unless you watched again.

Prof Moff

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 5 Jadzia 2 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1

Sᴏᴄɪᴀʟ Kɪᴅ

That was a very religious looking scene for such a science person.