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UNCUT - Visionary (DS9 S3E17) | Star Trek Journey 352 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-03-06 01:00:10
Edited:
2026-03-09 13:23:07
Imported:
2026-09
Tags:
stj

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THE LORE!!!

Yes! I'm excited to watch this one with you guys.

tyranusfan

Amazingly appropriate. A chief episode on Alex's birthday

Breakingthenotion

I was wondering how you would react to the final resolution of this episode and your debate didn’t disappoint.

tyranusfan

Should be "Prices, a bit high they are, for my taste. " :)

Breakingthenotion

Fun Fact: DS9 was originally going to have a pool table but once they were alerted that Voyager was going to have one they changed it into a dart board.

Scott Woodward

A few things beef this episode up for me past being a decent rehash of Cause and Effect. First, I like that this weird series of deaths and disasters the chief suffers is tied either to the time jumping itself (like dying of the radiation damage) or the intrigues with the Romulans and Klingons (basically, since the time jumping is due to the time warpy effects of the romulan warbird, all the problems Miles encounters are effectively happening for the same reason he is jumping through time). Its a little flimsy, but it makes internal sense. I also like Odo being a sassy smarty sleuth this episode. I almost wonder if he's been doing this since the Search just to mildly bust Sisko's balls for Starfleet bringing in Eddington. But most of all, Colm being in the driver's seat is as always the best call here. The time traveling is weird and doesn't stand up well to close scrutiny. To get past that we need to care what the traveler is going through and Miles is Trek's go to Everyman. Perfect for this role. And of course it pushes the plot threads forward, increasing tensions with the Romulans amongst all the other factions at play in the series. All in all a solid episode in a solid season.

Roger Mortimer

Miles#2 was sleeping when the 'our' Miles (#1) visited because Miles went to bed at the end of the episode..and would have been sleeping.. To be honest though, this puzzled me as well, until you guys raised the issue..and then it clicked.

Sykonee

It's weird how, with all the Chief's timey-wimey tomfoolery and philosophical quandary regarding who's the Real O'Brien at the end of the episode that one thing always gets lost in the discussion... We actually witness DS9 getting blowed up real good too!

tyranusfan

Regarding the pip on O'Brien's collar, there was an attempt to make his "Chief" rank more obvious on his uniform. In TNG, he had the pips of a Lieutenant. Here they're trying to make it line up more by giving him a hollow pip, which would be below ensign (the lowest officer rank).

Lt Dan I Scream

actually Sick Chief jumped into the future ... which is when Chief was sleeping after the darts game at the end... so technically it would be an infinite loop.. the 5 hour ahead chief would be jumping back and we would be left with the dead chief. the idea I think is because we changed the future by stopping the Romulans the past Miles never saw the station explode and never jumped 3 hrs into the future and thus doesnt die.

Matchstick Jose

I believe that was just a reuse of the explosion from Star Trek VI.

Prof Moff

The most realistic thing about the time shat is: Chief goes forward and back in time many times yet has no sex because he is married. And it would not have mattered if Keiko was there..... it still would have been no sex.

Ryan

I think "Weird Shit Happens to the Chief" is my favorite Star Trek trope, above even "Chekov Screams" and "Data Doesn't Really Become More Human." What a great episode. Happy birthday, Alex/Chief.

Matchstick Jose

The way Josh and Alex write “born” looks suspiciously like “Gorn.”

Nick Marten

And here we are, the Miles we’ve followed for 8 years, since the Farpoint mission has died a painful death (from radiation or the station exploding). RIP prime Miles. Seriously though, while for other people not much changed other than NuMiles being ~5 hours older, for prime Miles who we spent all this time with, it’s a big deal. He’s dead.

Terminaldogma01

Should I play more RE9 right after work? Nope, I have priorities. *uses caveman brain to sync up TA to Paramount+*

Andrew Duffy

In terms of why the romulans blew up the wormhole, I always just assumed it was because they decided the dominion was too much of a threat and wanted to make a surgical strike to close it off

Summer

This is a great episode, sadly no Keiko, but unlike a couple episodes it doesn’t feel like an interruption in the story, just a little thread. Been waiting to say “I hate temporal mechanics” actually I find them interesting. Hope you had a great birthday Alex (I am not cool enough to joke about not knowing names.) hopefully you like the next guys, I am in the minority in really liking it.

Summer

Its a chess game with the Romulans they always have another move

Altariel

The stream of consciousness for this "new" O'Brien is basically the same: he also has experienced everything from Encounter at Farpoint until now. ait only differs in this very episode, but you could just as well imagine this episode being told from his perspective, not from the O'Brien that dies. So I don't agree with the idea that the O'Brien we have known until now is dead. The difference only appears in THIS episode, everything else is the same.

Fritz

It has been established before that Romulans use quantum singularities as to power their ships. So when they detected the quantum singularity circling the station, my mind immediately went to "cloaked Romulan Warbird".

Cory Paton

Came here to say this too, BUT I wouldn’t expect A&J to remember that detail 😅

Zenlike Creature

A great episode with some super comedic lines. Odo, especially, has some particularly memorable ones. I do enjoy how they address the time travel problem, too. Very tongue in cheek. Happy (belated) Birthday, Alex!

Gary Willig

This plot seems pretty 'TNG' on paper, but the reasoning behind the Romulan plot fits perfectly with DS9's overarching plot. It makes perfect sense that the Romulans would seek to destroy the wormhole to ensure the Dominion wouldn't be a threat after they let their Federation rivals put one of their prized cloaking devices on a warship just because of how seriously they took the Dominion threat.

Philbot

“Sleeping Chief” not knowing about the other chiefs final jump actually makes sense because he never made the jump forward only the jump back.. As far as seeing yourself in the future it’s like Marty McFly from Back to the Future 2. He shouldn’t be there, the future should be like him and Jennifer disappeared 30 years ago? But you could say that some version of past chief fixed his time shenanigans and just went to bed. Also chief doesn’t die at least not yet he just gets left in the future.. a future that no longer exists.

Philbot

Colm has the best character arc he went from unnamed day player in Encounter at Farpoint to a series regular and the best character in Trek!? Picard just keeps calling him Conn in Encounter at Farpoint. Khan!

Philbot

My only problem with Data’s head is after 500 years he’s gonna need some refurbishment.

Philbot

So it’s not really our station!? 😮

Trent Bowles

One underappreciated aspect of this episode is how good the "competence porn" is here. Obviously, Star Trek has always excelled at that, but it's really nice to see just how effectively the crew uses the information Chief O'Brien gets from the future to solve the mystery. From Odo solving mysteries about Klingon spies, to Bashir quickly relaying information to his past self...it's just really satisfying. I mean, they should have figured out the cloaked Romulan Warbird thing way sooner, but hey, nobody's perfect.

Collin Freeman

Humor: quality vs quantity. Good point.

Collin Freeman

Josh brings up a good point about the transporter creating essentially a new person each time someone uses it even successfully. I think you might be ready for the novel, Spock Must Die by James Blish.

Steven Linden

The thing is, it IS the same Miles we've been with all this time. They only diverged for a few hours. This O'Brien is the same one we've seen in TNG and DS9 all the way up to 3/4 of the way through this episode.

Steven Linden

All of the things that don't make sense about the time travel here are just down to "changing the timeline"-style time travel being inherently nonsensical. The only way time travel could really work would be if nothing changes and the time travel just fulfills what already happened. (And, though you have other reasons for disliking it, the only Star Trek episode we've seen so far where it works this way is "Time's Arrow".)

Steven Linden

(No, I've never time travelled, but for what it's worth I AM a physicist.)

River Acheron

Fantastic episode! One of this season's highlights. I have a soft spot for short-timeframe time-travel stuff. :) Def an A+

Sam Langanke

"We know the station will not blow up!"

Matchstick Jose

I definitely agree that DS9 is the funniest Trek. Not only does it pull off its fair share of light/comedic episodes, but I think the heaviness of the series just really lends itself to a brief comedic release of tension or a well-timed joke. I also think the joke hit rate is much higher in DS9’s dramatic episodes than in the more comedic ones.

Better Watch Trek

Romulans... Klingons... All have their agenta and still... The producers decidet to have O'Brien as main narrative :)

Actuarial Lurker

Alex WAS a fetus for 9 months so theoretically you have to go back to the point of when he could have heard sounds (since people DO play music for their unborn kids in the womb to "enrich" their brains) to determine the first episode that qualifies as being the first that aired when he was alive and sentient depending on religious views and biological facts

Actuarial Lurker

Math and Physics double major here- I understand...I always critique the techno-babble, time warps etc. For example the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle would make the transporters impossible despite the "alleged" Heisenberg correction portion of the device

Actuarial Lurker

We have seen hundreds of copies of our characters if you consider the version that beams to another location through the transporter a duplicate

StonyD

Heisenberg Compensator, Inertial Dampeners, etc. LOL! They usually have tech in there they name to handwave this stuff.

StonyD

It is interesting the mechanics of jumping back and forth in your own timeline is different than how Yesterday's Enterprise presented it. There, the moment the C was in the future, the timeline they arrived in was one in which they never returned to the Battle of Nerendra III. Here, going by that same conceit, when the Chief jumps forward, he should have been missing for five hours on the station when he arrives in the future. But, still a good episode. It's Trek, whatchigonnado.

JordanK1991

Another absolutely wonderful episode filled with interactions and comedic nuggets. A!

James H

So, just thinking here. When Chief time-jumped 3 hours, he had not yet changed the future he’d seen with Chief+5 on the runabout. So Chief+5’s timeline still existed when Chief jumped forward and met Chief+3, who was otherwise going to be woken up by the evacuation alert and become Chief+5. But why was Chief+3 in bed? Because he was already a divergent Chief who DIDN’T do the 3-hour jump, because the Chief+5 future hadn’t been changed yet, which meant Chief+5 still had a past, where he was Chief+3. This made sense to me for a minute, but now I’ve lost the thread again.

Mr Moxie

Alex, here's a pretty easy headcanon fix: It's Whispers again, the Chief we follow the entire episode ISN'T sacred timeline chief, instead we are just getting the backstory of some other timeline chief who sacrifices himself so sacred timeline chief can go back in time and live.

Mr Moxie

Most everybody believes the transporter maintains a person's consciousness since the same matter is turned into energy and then back to matter. Also I agree with Alex that it really isn't the same Miles if you can't trace a direct continuity of consciousness. But as I say in another comment, one way around it is you headcanon that replacement Miles is the real one and the dead Miles was just some alternate early timeline Miles we get the backstory for like in whispers.

Summer

Steven if this time traveling fact changes for you, do let us know

THE Fans

The REAL fix for Alex... both Obrian's timelines are exactly the same up til the last time jump. One died. The other has 3 extra hours of memories... at that point. That's how he knew "dabo!" So this is the same Miles from Farpoint, only he is 3 hours older than standard time records.

Erik L Jerks

My thoughts on the lack of knowledge for the 5 hour O'Brien is that there's a broken stream of consciousness due to prime O'Brien dying in the final timeline. They share a mind during the original 5 hour jump, but once he makes the decision to short cut that he breaks the original loop and causes a divergent/splinter timeline. I HATE temporal mechanics.

Doctor Pulaski

If I do a sun slingshot and travel back in time to the moment of Alex's birth, and deliver him myself, but change nothing else about his life, is he still the same Alex? The sweet sweet irony of Alex being delivered by Dr. Pulaski... what does that change about his destiny?

Mark Wood

Yeap, the show did give real info that a fan who pays attention to that type of material should catch. Now of course not all fans are into the tech. But there are many who are.

Matthew Ganz

So there is evidence about the ship. The dialogue (before the final scene in OPS) mentions an artificial singularity -- which we know about from several TNG episodes (Face of the Enemy and Timescape) --- it's a bit of stretch, but with Romulans on board and a singularity orbiting the station, I feel like people could have gotten there. On my first watch I assumed it was the Romulans, but I didn't catch the ship reference until rewatches later on. Keep up the great work -- love the reactions this season!

Mr Moxie

There's nothing to say that this isn't Whispers again. The Miles we follow the whole episode could be non-prime Miles and we just get the backstory for how prime Miles was told crucial info by some non-prime timeline Miles. IIRC some S2 TNG ep had Picard get info from a previous time loop Picard. This can be like that.

Nick Marten

You forget that the Miles were left with at the end of the show left his timeline and joined the timeline what you call the non-prime Miles (who we followed most of the episode) is from. So, that means we leave the prime universe with DS9 under attack by the Romulans and presumably about to be destroyed since it was destroyed before and nothing changed with respect to the attack. So, while we keep prime Miles, all the other prime DS9 characters on the station die. And we never to return to the prime universe; now we’re following the non-prime universe that we were following most of the episode where the non-prime Miles came from.

DarthFunkNinja

Still; one O'Brien lost their entire 32+ years of experiences gone. Reduced to atoms.

Ficial Intelligence

The writers screwed up, and luckily no one caught it. Jadzia Dax found a way to locate and penetrate the Romulan cloaking device. And this was simply dropped.

reactive1

I love this episode. It’s always an enjoyable watch. S for me.

reactive1

I think the key to understanding the two O’Brien’s at the end is when Dr Bashir makes the observation that the O’Brien that returns from the future in his pajamas has very little radiation in his system. That O’Brien is the same one who was piloting the runabout that the past (our present) O’Brien saw and talked to. So when our O’Brien returns to the present he has Dr Bashir flood his body with the radiation and he goes 3 1/2 hours in the future and sees the same O’Brien he saw on his previous trip five hours the future. That “future” O’Brien wouldn’t know anything about the station’s destruction because it hadn’t happened for him yet. Also, Dr Bashir had nearly eliminated all the radiation from him (which is what the doctor said right before O’Brien shifted and saw the stations destruction).

jon bolton

My favourite of the Season, S.

Avaria

Fair. Although, Romulan singularity engines and their ability to muck with time when wonky was the central plot point of the TNG 6th season episode "Timescape," so not unreasonable to hope story-focused people might recall it from "a couple years ago". Not guaranteed, though.

TC Green

Fun episode I always enjoy on a rewatch. A+

TC Green

This is it right here

Banes

It confused me too, how the last Chief in bed doesn't seem to remember himself planning to travel forward 3 hours. He's missing some memories and has some extra memories. Maybe the surviving version is a little from Colm A and a little from Colm B.

Loot Narsbaar

You guys are wrong about being able to solve the mystery of the second Warbird. I solved it before the crew did during first airing based on the clues left.

Loot Narsbaar

Just remember in Paralells there are infinite timelines. Even though that episode sucks it does explain away every other time travel episode.

Naglfarius

B Tier for me. The End scene where Miles changes was a great Woah! moment. I think the Kira Moments were some of the strongest Parts in this Episode. Her Scenes with the Romulans and after that with Odo are great.

Mark Simonson

This is how I see it, too. It makes sense that future Chief is asleep in bed. Sleeping Chief is on the timeline where Bashir never sent him 3 hours into the future to find out why the station was destroyed a few hours later. That's why he has no memory of visiting himself or why. And I think the reason it's different from the earlier time jumps is because they've engineered a way to do it on purpose. Maybe. Because temporal mechanics. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Mark Simonson

If the Chief hadn't had the radiation accident in the teaser, the Romulan's plan to destroy the station would have succeeded.

Loot Narsbaar

The other thread that was dropped was the Klingons. What if they were trying to stop the Romulans?

Paul

I think it works where the time jump occurs from a frame without knowledge of jumping forward, so that Miles is acting as if nothing weird is going on.

Admiral Paxillus

Welcome to the world O’Brian reincarnated! No wonder Alex feels such disappointment with existence. He should be a happily married engineer in the 24th century.

Aramis Calcutt

It’s not a different you, Alex. There were never two Chiefs. The two O’Briens talking to each other were not two different consciousnesses. They were exactly the same person. On the other hand, Josh is right. The transporter kills you and replaces you. I would never get in a transporter.

TinMan_7B9

Spock also wasn't really Spock anymore after "Wrath of Khan". Did that ruin Star Trek III/IV/V.... or VI? (don't answer that last one). O'Brien is still human at least. Spock-2 is a perverted science experiment at best. But the paradox of sleeping O'Brien having no memory of the timejumps doesn't make any sense. Something strange must have happened during this episode. The introduction of an unstable element must have messed up the timeline. When did you say Alex was born?

Ryan K

Low-key great episode for small Odo moments too. "I always investigate Quark." and "Sometimes I have to remind you just how good I am." What a king.

Paul

My mind was as blown as Alex on the first watch because, technically on a physical atomic level, same Miles we've been journeying with since Encounter at Farpoint is dead. But is there more to our existence than precise atomic arrangements? Our self-awareness is uniquely tethered to a single version of "us". The Miles that jumps forward in time, is still only self-aware of himself, his one original self. So, that Miles' sentience has indeed been snuffed out. A deeply disturbing perspective... And Josh is right about the Transporter. The new creation that pops out at the other end, their sentience is replaced with a facsimile that "feels" real, but the original unique signature is lost forever. I'm definitely with Dr, Pulaski on this one, shuttles only for me. A small point, I remember guessing this was a cloaked Romulan warbird because of meta knowledge from back in TNG, remember that Ro and Geordi episode, the one where Picard draws a smiley face on a warp core breach exhaust vent, also a time-related problem ironically enough... They're over on the Warbird and the issue stemmed in part from their warp drive using an artificial black hole, which is mentioned here. Anyhow, only potent nerds like me and a few others would pick up on that.

BN13

I think from a 4th dimensional perspective, what's really going on is there are no TWO O'briens. There's just one. It just looks like there are two from our 3rd dimensional perspective, but this is an illusion, just like everything else in our reality. In short, "I'm you, you're me. It doesn't matter." I guess think of it this way. Each person isn't really just a person. if you look at us in 4d, each of us is actually our complete timeline of our entire existence. And if you were to look at each of us in 5d or 6d or however far reality actually goes, who knows what we would all look like. But anyway, in 4d, those O'briens were just different points on the same O'brien timeline interacting with each other. Only now, one of them has the experience of death as well (three of them actually). But in terms of O'brien's entire existence, this whole episode was just a small hiccup. He's still the entire O'brien timeline. Then again, I'm not a fourth dimensional being, so what do I know? This is just what my intuition tells me from studying other stuff that theorizes that our reality is actually part of a multidimesional existence that we can only percieve 3 dimensions of. Who knows how time actually works? Probably not how this episode shows it.

Joe Concepts

I would say that's why the characters should have thought of it. It's known Romulans have that singularity, and even if a viewer doesn't remember that detail, THEY should have.

Numinous2019

Did anyone else feel Bashir should have been more emotional about what was going on with O'Brien? The Ops command crew may have to remain focused and calm, but wouldn't a doctor express more anguish about what their patient/colleague/friend is being put through? Bashir just seems to be taking it all more or less in his stride.....have time shenanigans become that routine?

Numinous2019

Honestly, I think the writers knew this was a blatant plot hole, but that it didn't matter so much in terms of enjoying the story unfolding. The line about hating temporal mechanics is a nod to the audience.....like Michael York in the 2nd Austin Powers movie. Don't lose sight of the fun just because the script can't make everything work.

Numinous2019

Sisko does in fact state the reason the Romulations collapsed the wormhole (as he confronts them in the bimriefing room). Sisko himself having attempted to collapse the wormhole for precisely the same reason in The Search (Part 2).

Steven McDowell

The character moments in this are hilarious. Kira’s scenes with Sisko, the Romulans AND Odo (Odo getting soooo concerned hahaha), Odo reminding Sisko how good he is and always having eyes on Quark, and O’Brien yelling at Bashir after he died. Definitely rewatch worthy.

Deliximus

The Tshirt is a spoiler LOL

Aaron Wells

The O'Brian pip situation at this point is idiotic. O'Brian isn't a commissioned officer, he's enlisted. A Non-commissioned officer. A Senior Chief Petty Officer, specifically. He never went to the Academy. He is technically outranked by even the lowliest ensign, though in his position as Chief of Operations, he has operational authority. The stupid writers don't know what to do with enlisted personnel, who are presumably most of Starfleet, so they give a senior NCO a single half pip, at least acknowledging him as lower rank than an ensign. It's a big dumb problem in all of Star Trek.

Cranky Grandma

. They are all the same Miles. You could say the one who died is the variant. Miles isn’t dead. There were multiple variants. We followed the story of one of them

Sam Langanke

Tough little ship? No. Thomas Riker says that in "Defiant".

Loot Narsbaar

Things the Romulans have gotten from their agreement with the Federation and maybe they should shut up: -the Changelings run the Dominion -the hierarchy of Dominion -the Jem'Hadar are bred to fight within days, are programmed to obey shapeshifters, and need a hard to replicate drug to operate -Changelings can thoroughly duplicate a humanoid -Their cloaks are vulnerable to anti-proton beams -The location of the Karama -The location of the Founders -Their weapons can go through energy shields -They have incredible VR technology -A galaxy class starships can hold out for five minutes with it's shields inoperable down 3 against one -Not even Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the USS Enterprise-D would survive a 3-1 mismatch against them (implied) I would argue this is not nothing and had they loosened their treaty to allow more cloaked Federation ships / probes, they would have more info on the Gamma Quadrant.

Loot Narsbaar

(Parallels ruins everything if you think about it too long)

Loot Narsbaar

Maybe a side-effect of forcing the time jump?

Loot Narsbaar

This is why getting the tech stuff right is crucial!

Loot Narsbaar

He's been wearing the hollow pip since TNG s6

Aaron Wells

Alex is totally right about the loss of continuity thing. What defines us as individuals is the continuity of our experience. When the conscious mind sleeps, the rest of it keeps going. When you are brought back from a near death experience...there was some level of brain activity. The loss of consciousness doesn't delete you as a person. What comes back is still you. I buy the transporter solely because of that Barclay episode, about his transporter phobia. We get to experience the transporter from the first person perspective. At no point does Barclay lose consciousness...the continuity is unbroken. Otherwise, frankly, yes...the transporter kills and replaces everyone. What rematerializes is simply some other version from the infinite multiverse. The flaw in quantum teleportation. A common trope in scifi is downloading a mind into a computer to escape death...but I've never bought it. To me, that loss of continuity is simply death. The one time I found this idea acceptable was in the novel Old Man's War. The premise of the novel, without spoiling it, is that an old man is hooked up to a new, supersoldier body...and during the transfer, he is simultaneously present in both bodies...the two bodies are sitting opposite to each looking, looking each other in the eye...thinking in parallel with both minds...and then the old body is "shut off". So...there is no loss of continuity. The same unbroken consciousness remains. This works for me. Yep. The original Chief is dead. But he died heroically. Aware of his sacrifice, and aware that his family would be taken care of by the next best thing. Went out with his boots on. Worthy.

Loot Narsbaar

Wrong for having not watched every episode of TNG 10 times before this aired.

Bert

I felt that way too. He was far more emotional about Vedic Bareil. Maybe he was just numb. But normally, TV doesn't do numb.

Bert

The minstrel boy to the war is gone In the ranks of death you will find him His father's sword he hath girded on And his wild harp slung behind him "Land of Song" said the warrior bard "Tho' all the world betrays thee One sword, at least, thy right shall guard One faithful harp shall praise thee" The minstrel fell, but the foeman's chain Could not bring that proud soul under The harp he lov'd ne'er spoke again For he tore its cords asunder And said "no chains shall sully thee, Thou soul of love and bravery Thy songs were made for the pure and free They shall never sound in slavery"

Aaron Wells

Time travel is indeed impossible. Time DILATION however, time passing at different speeds, relatively, is absolutely real, as has been demonstrated in experiments as well as observationally. VIEWING the past is absolutely real...you do it every time you look up at the stars at night. The irrevocable link between time and space means that "temporal mechanics" is absolutely a thing. There ARE rules about how this stuff works, and this has been verified mathematically and experimentally. Space is indeed curved, stretched, distorted, as is the corresponding time. This was established by relativity. But yeah. Going back to meet your father is impossible.

Bert

I think this is only the third death of a canonical Star Trek main character. We just got Kirk. Tasha Yar in early TNG. I guess you could count Spock which is fair if you're counting O'Brien. So, four.

Spaceflight Illustration Gateway

I feel like the transporter does maintain continuity of existence- we have seen from the POV of people like Barclay during transport and its just that things get sparkly for a few seconds. It makes no scientific sense but its probably one of those things like warp drive where it works the way it does because the show says that it is. One of those things thats a handwave because the story and characters are more important. O'brien though... that really does throw me a bit. I guess they do imply that literally everything up until this episode was the same experience for the other O'brien... but at the same time the original we followed is basically gone.

Numinous2019

It might have been deliberately done so as not to 'overload' the episode. Make Bashir lower key, so that the energy stays were they wanted it. I guess if everything is high key in feel than it all just feels the same. I do like your suggestion that he's numbed by being reduced to a passive role.

Einar Sigurðsson

damn Josh, get some sleep before these! Or a nice steaming cup of Raktajino!

Scarpad’s Domain

Can’t blame the director for past tense he didn’t write or cast it

Miranda

Yeah, it is a lot of intel. They are just paranoid and think everyone is hiding something from them. Because they would obviously hide info if the situation was reversed.

Miranda

I got the idea that he always felt like he was in control. By the time the Chief "died", he already knew the other Chief would be showing up, and he could just pass the message along. Or maybe he freaked out at the time, but then realized he could just pass the message to the other O'Brien.

Miranda

I think the writers knew that most fans wouldn't remember that stuff. When this aired you couldn't rewatch the episodes like we can now. So only true hardcore nerds (like myself) would remember from TNG's "Timescape" that the Romulan ships use an artificial singularity to power their engines. I just remembered that because I thought it was crazy. So, the writers of DS9 would remember it, because Moore and Echevarria were on that staff. It's almost functionally an easter egg as originally intended. Writers using an obscure TNG fact as the hints to the mystery in this DS9 episode.

Miranda

I agree with others here, that the last O'Brien from the future doesn't know about this, because the chain got broken when Bashir/O'Brien rigged up a device to let the original O'Brien make a shorter time jump. The sleeping O'Brien in the future is one from a prior visit. A different timeline, functionally. The evidence here is that this future O'Brien also doesn't have the new radiation poisoning. So, he's never done this trip. I, too, hate temporal mechanics

Aaron Wells

Yep. He's dead. And yes, that particular Barclay episode saved the transporter in my opinion, in terms of in-universe logic. Without that episode, we could only logically conclude that we had watched our characters be obliterated and replaced dozens, if not hundreds of times. 😆

Skye Maidstone

I bloody love this episode. It's a suitably ballsy bit of DS9 writing at the end. S tier.

Edweirdo

Granted, I haven't watched DS9, but I still think TOS was funnier.

Lorne Pribbeno

Future Miles was not experiencing the jumps like present Miles was, or likely past Miles. He was just seeing his past self pop up from time to time. Otherwise he would have known about the phaser blast from the console, the problem with his brain stem, and the station blowing up. And as he wasn't experiencing the jumps, he was not getting the dose of radiation that came with it. OH, and yes, this channel is about you guys. Thats why people watch

Miranda

No, the Romulans aren't going to blow up the wormhole because they are unsatisfied with the intel. They got a LOT of intel, as detailed elsewhere in these comments. They want to blow up the wormhole because they view the Dominion as THAT big a threat. They are trying to cut off Dominion access to the Alpha/Beta quadrants. Honestly, for me, this episode makes me wonder why the Federation is not even considering collapsing the wormhole as a defensive measure. Edited: This is why it looked pre-planned. It WAS. Because they already had the good intel from the Federation. The Federation just didn't have MORE than what they'd already given.

Nolan

Explaining the plan to the guilty party whose plan it was: "We found you out. And not only did we find you out, but we found you out so exactly you can't even deny it. We found you out so exactly that the hubris you had in thinking you were smarter than us is so obviously wrong, that you were actually quite stupid to think you could fool us. Remember that for next time."

JB

The Chief must Suffer has become the Chief must Die. Repeatedly. In the same episode.

Nostrum

which seems like a great piece of technology they might want to invest in. time travel a few hours into the future and make sure we havent blown up

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

Other than Gene, has anyone involved in writing ever served in the military I wonder?

Mark Simonson

The only catch is that you need to have a cloaked Romulan ship lurking nearby.

Rangsk

I try not to think too hard about the fact that I think I'm the same person as child me due to continuity of consciousness, but I share almost no atoms in common with him.

Zerocooleo

When Dax started techno babble around the circular display table I legit thought all of them were going to pass out and fall over!

E Parhas

There's that TNG episode with fractured time where there's past and future versions of the crew and their consciousnesses basically like jump bodies in the turbolift because they're all the same people just in different moments and it's just complicated time stuff. But that is what I use to head canon OBrien being the sane

BN13

I'm all for analyzing the hell out of abstract stuff like the nature of time and time travel. But over the years, I've come to agree with Josh when it comes to how time travel is portrayed in any media. There's nothing to gain from it beyond just watching it at surface value for whatever that media is trying to do with it. The minute you start analyzing how the time travel plot in any media is supposed to ACTUALLY work, you realize that it doesn't, and the more you think about it, the more the whole thing falls apart. This episode is a prime example of how time travel in media ultimately doesn't make any sense, so just don't worry about it. Also, for anyone hung up on the "real" chief dying, why are you only counting the last time he died? He died three times. If those other two didn't count because they "didn't actually happen" then the last one "didn't actually happen" either. And if the last one did actually happen, then so did the others because they all three were the cause of the timeline taking a different path. You only care about the last one because the perspective we're shown in the episode kills a particular POV we've been following, making that O'brien feel "real" while the other two just "possible futures." But there is no difference between the two. They are all O'brien, and O'brien both died three times and still lived due to wacky temporal cause and effect shenanigans. Again, I am of the mind that there is no such thing as a "sacred timeline" or alternate chiefs vs real chief. These aren't clones like Tom and Will Riker where you are actually dealing with two different people. This is time. That means every chief we see is the same chief. If you think there is a "real" chief, or multiple chiefs, or a sacred chief, that's just observation bias. It's like having a preferred frame of reference in physics without realizing that in reality, all frames of reference are equally valid.

Dr. Paul Stubbs

So I see a lot of time travel theorizing here. But it all focuses on the end and overlooks things that happen elsewhere in the episode. None of the "time jumps" line up with each other. For example, when we first see the bar fight, "future" O'Brien is on the floor. When "our" O'Brien experiences the fight, he is standing and "past" O'Brien give him ~the look~. These are two different scenes with three unique, diverging O'Briens. Neither "future" O'Brien or "past" O'Brien is *our* O'Brien that shares the audience POV. So, how does any of this make sense? The easiest way to rationalize time travel is almost always with the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics: Schrödinger’s cat splits the universe into two parallel timelines, one where the cat is alive and one where it is dead. All outcomes of quantum events simultaneously exist and our consciousness slides along on only one "track" through the possibility space. Using this interpretation, O'Brien isn't just time traveling. He is creating new "tracks" in the many-worlds of time where several copies of himself simultaneously exist. Every time he jumps, it creates a new (or maybe he perceives an existing?) timeline with a new history that has always had both O'Brien copies in it. And bringing up Loki is a perfect analogy. The MCU never really explains it, but this is kind of how "time travel" works there and why Endgame time travel sets the stage for Loki's multiverse arc.

Deep Red

I'm with you. I actually like time travel in stories. As long as the story "feels" like it works, I'm okay with it. It operates on what I like to call "dream logic"

Deep Red

Sisko, Kira and Dax telling the Romulans their plan I think makes complete sense. Doesn't feel like an exposition dump to me. One: I didn't put together that the Romulans were collapsing the wormhole because they were afraid of the Dominion. And Two: the Romulans are obviously hiding this information. And they would just deny everything, so Sisko wants them to know that they know exactly what they are planning to do. I was just in a DnD campaign where a character was being interrogated and the questioner was like "We know what your plan was." Obviously the reaction was, "Oh? What's my plan?"

Lovok

There was actually a big hint of the cloaked Warbird earlier in the episode. They detected a quantum singularity orbiting the station. As we learned in TNG's "Timescape," the Romulans use a synthetic quantum singularity to power their warp core. This is kind of a sequel to "Timescape," where aliens storing their young in the Warbird's warp core shattered space/time into "pockets" of time.

MartyMc

If the think this episode is a time travel mind bender, they should watch the movie Primer.

Some Guy

I mean, this isn't the first time an O'Brien has died.

Summer

Same, it always seemed a natural part of the drama play called Trek, maybe letting Quark stay ir have Miles come in too would have been good but a better near end scene than some

Paul

In the moment they speak with each other, they are only self aware of one body. So no, they are each a unique consciousness.

Aramis Calcutt

They are self aware of only one body because there is only one body. They are not two separate entities. Just like you experience from one moment to the next.

Aaron Wells

I don't get that impression often.

Loot Narsbaar

I believe Ronald Moore did. He’s the person who made Chief a non-com and has tried hard to uphold naval tradition

Avaria

My understanding of how we get to the end with the various O'Briens: Each time Miles experienced a time jump in which he died (the booby trap in the corridor, the arterial damage) caused a slight deviation in the timeline because he did not subsequently die. So, while the divergence is mild, there's more of a difference between the "original" Miles and the one we finish with, bathrobe Miles, than just 5 hours of additional time. Julien's scan of bathrobe Miles at the end of the episode where he says there's only a tiny amount of isotopes in his system suggests to me that bathrobe Miles is from a timeline where Bashier continued the treatments (he'd previously said he needed one more treatment) rather than constructing the device to do controlled time jumps. So, no, bathrobe Miles had not made the last jump that "original" Miles made. And, because there were tiny variances in the progression of the timelines. there could feasibly also be tiny variances in the amount of information various characters have about the situation. Ultimately, because the situation is resolved, the timelines will eventually reconverge the next time Miles sleeps for more than 5 hours. Now, back to time travelling into the future at the rate of one minute per minute. ;P

Aaron Wells

Okay, looking into it it seems that Ronald D Moore was originally in college on a naval ROTC scholarship... And did complete a midshipman cruise aboard a frigate. Dropped out of college though, and didn't end up being commissioned. But, crucially, he understands how this stuff works. Interesting, good to know.

Tim Nikiforovs

Kinda late commenting on this one, but my read on this one is that much like how Tom Riker split off from Will and before that they shared the same stream of consciousness, and therefore are both the real Riker, so 2 are both O'Briens "the original". I always think of these shifting timelines like trains on tracks. The multiverse theory explored in Parallels basically means all these possible different outcomes branch off and become their own universe. Moving between these timelines like Worf did is like jumping to a train on a "parallel" track. In O'Brien's case here, every time jump is a loop. He's destined to return to where he started. Since he will by the very act of traveling to the future gather information that will change his actions, he creates a split in the timeline each time. He's seeing a version of the future where he didn't make that jump, and that knowledge changes his actions, so he's immediately on a different track when he returns. The O'Brien he saw in the first jump had no knowledge of time jumps, but when he reached that point, the conversation changed. The O'Brien in the second jump remembered the first, the 3rd O'Brien remembered the previous 2, and so on. The O'Brien in each of those futures doesn't cease to exist, that's just a separate branch of the timeline, like leaves growing off twigs, twigs growing off branches, branches growing off limbs, and limbs growing off the trunk of a tree. Follow any of them back to the source and they're all one tree. They're ALL the original O'Brien, they ALL share the same stream of consciousness going back to the beginning of his life, and they all branched off at different points. In the case of the one that replaced him, rewind 3.5 hours and they're the same person. His existence didn't start 3.5 hours ago, it just merges with the O'Brien who died. Anyway, everything I just typed is probably complete bullshit that just confused you even more, but there it is. Good episode.

Vina

If transporters are actually murder machines is an actual philosophical problem, the "Teletransportation paradox". Things like this keep some people up at night lol

Lozman73

Great reaction Guys... enjoyed this... Josh.... GET SOME SLEEP dude, you can hardly keep your eyes open

Prof Moff

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 5 Jadzia 3 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 Jake 1

Evan Guthrie

This was posted two days before my wedding. This is the first chance I'm having to watch it and all reactions that come after. Time for a binge!

paultardspambot .

He had the least amount of radiation because Bashir had given him the second injection. Remember, Bashir said, "One more treatment." So that O'Brien had both treatments which remvoved the radiation and hence the least radiation

paultardspambot .

They're thinking about it, but by the Federation's definition that would be an act of Genocide because of the Prophets. Remember they value "strange new life" equal to humanoid life. It's a big deal the Dominion knows Sisko WOULD do it. It creates the possibility that the Dominion after that didn't invade not because they are just responding, but because they realize that Starfleet would collapse the wormhole. To the Founders, this just proves STarfleet's calues about other lifr are false as they are willing ti kill the prohets to protect themselves from the Dominion. And the Founders probably value Prophets type life above "solids." This is actually an important plot point people miss. Since the Search Part 2, We've had a plausible reason why the Dominion might intend to invade but not do it, because they realize starfleet would destroy the wormhole before enough ships got through. So it creates the question- Will they leave us alone if we leave them alone, or are they just figuring out a way to ensure they CAN invade without the wormhole closing? That adds this tension to everything, because Sisko wants to prevent a war. but he realises the invasion may still be inevitable, just delayed. As in, from after "The Jem'Hadar" where rhey were ready for an invasion. "The Search 2" manaages to drag that uncertainity out. Starfleet has one trump card, a last resort. The Dominion MAY just be waiting to figure out how to remove that trump card.

Miranda

Collapsing the entrance to the wormhole doesn't kill the aliens living inside it. t just cuts off access to anyone trying to go through it.