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Heart and Hand Extra - One Step Forward, Two Steps Back (Patreon)

Published:
2024-12-27 18:00:12
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

Cammy is here with Extra as he and Kev Armstrong discuss a dismal display in Paisley, and look towards this Sundays game vs Motherwell at Fir Park.

As always, this show is ad-free for Patreon subscribers.

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Comments

Stewart Robertson

I almost don’t want to listen - but you were brave enough to record it, so listen I shall.

Jim McCutcheon

Time is up for Clement and a few of the current squad 💁‍♂️ it's just a matter of how soon will it happen because it's inevitable imo

Spoon

Sorry Cammy Gio had zero investment in his own players and by far worse injuries, he got us to a Euro final and was still emptied. Clement, by recent standards has had the best onfield options of any manager. The guy is sitting with an embarrassment of domestic riches. That’s despite me still believing guys like Cerny is vastly over rated or guys like Danilo is similar poor despite many being desperate to accept a guy who’s been available for a generous 6 months since his £6m move. His dad looks more match fit. I don’t buy that Clement isn’t 100% making poor choices with more resources than anyone bar Them in the league. The style and output is dire.

George Higgins

We took the field yesterday with a centre half pairing that is only together because of injury. We missed Danilo for long periods not to mention Cortes and others. For all his failings we cannot ignore the catastrophic injury list he has had to contend with.

George Higgins
>>159530127

No doubt because his injury record before he landed in Scotland was negligible and the medical department ok’d it.

Brian

No Scottish players says it all rangers

Spoon
>>159530127

Danilo is like Moby Dick legend but rarely seen. To have gone into this season hanging our hopes on a guy who’s availability was demonstrably poor and who’s ability was utterly unknown was criminal. The idea it would all have been ok if one player had been fit at the start of the season is a fallacy, you need a squad that can carry some injuries and people far more physical and robust than we buy. No harm to the boy but having to constantly hear ‘we just need Danilo fit’ when he is a bang average and tiny player in a league of giants is a bit wearing. Made the point before even if we bought a £10m goal machine….what do you do when he can’t play 65 games a season or get injured ? The team has been badly crafted at purchase and then terribly coached afterwards. Gio had zero forwards and was throwing midfielders up front yet folk were desperate to empty the guy. Clement has had a far better crack at the whip on field at least. We need to stop pretending money wasn’t spent, it was just spent badly.

David Kiltie

You could argue that Clement is only still in post by default- the vacancies in the club’s superstructure, plus the “we can’t keep sacking managers” rationale/excuse/copout (take your pick). Before last night I thought he was taking advantage of this opportunity and that he might be winning the support over. Last night seems like back to square one. To rebuild credit in the bank he needs a good run of results which runs into double figures. Let’s see if we have a successful January transfer window for once (in terms of both incomings and outgoings).

David Kiltie
>>159526448

The injury Danilo picked up at Tynecastle, as I understand it, would often put a player out for a year. Perhaps Danilo’s return, though he has a distance to go, is actually ahead of schedule. You mention Igamane taking a long while to get up to speed. If the player trading model is going to establish itself, it means signing players who have a long way to develop and it is our club’s task to develop them, in terms of coaching, technical and tactical awareness, sports science etc. igamane didn’t have his best game last night but a few months ago he was being written off. In recent weeks he has certainly shown there is something there.

Spoon
>>159526448

Not sure that changes the point, regardless of why guys are only giving us about 12 months out a 4 year deal it’s terrible value for money, when it keeps happening we are doing something wrong. Igamane and Danilo are riding high on not being Dessers in my opinion as neither is particularly spectacular so the amount of hope being pinned on them is never likely to materialise. Danilo was a sub striker in Holland, is small and as wasteful as Dessers is to my eye, has he added energy absolutely, is he decent, no doubt but he’s not the messiah. Igamane to me looks a bit lumbering, if he wasn’t in the Saudi team from a few youth world cups ago I would be checking his date of birth. Raw yes, talented, just out he is getting all sorts of praise for impact but you see when deployed alone he just gets lost like Dessers did. I’m not having a go at either of the strikers, both may well prove to have been good additions. What I would say is that we have shown no recent evidence of developing talent, quite the opposite we can take decent players and demoralise them more often. I utterly refuse to believe every guy we sign needs a year to settle, months to start a game, weeks to build furniture or worse years being treated at our expense. Quite frankly the best way to have a booming PTM is by having a winning team, weeks don’t play football to win at transfers, money is important but the way we play, how we entertain and what we stick in the trophy cabinet matters far more. For about 5 years we must have been the unluckiest team in world football for injuries, not only the initial injury but extended rehab, when that happens it’s not luck in my own opinion. Just my view bud nothing more.

David Innes
>>159532506

If he’s to be in post at the start of next season I think he needs a good January window and at least 2 old firm wins including one in the Scottish cup

David Innes
>>159525903

Barring a miraculous turnaround-beating them at Ibrox then going on a 10+ game winning run I think he’s toast. If the board don’t want to act they’ll be forced into it when they see the swathes of empty seats at every home game

Heart and Hand
>>159526448

You are really unfair on Danilo Spoon, fairly constantly, and it seems to be purely because others like him. You are spot on about his availability and the reliance on him but after your often laudable defence of Dessers it seems weird that you go 180 when it cones to Danilo. Yes others may be a bit deluded about the ‘what if’ potential with him but that’s hardly the lad’s fault is it?

David Innes

Hopefully Patrick Stewart is already using all his contacts to pull together a shortlist of potential new managers. We need someone with a track record of success in British football (not necessarily Davie Moyes but someone of a similar level is what we desperately need)

Jim Milne

"the good play was a blip rather then the future" 100% accurate Kev. I give Clement a "bye" on the injuries, when the board downsized the squad so much we were always a few injuries away from a crisis. Rebuild or not, Clement has the 2nd highest budget in the league. Took til Christmas to get into 2nd, away record is atrocious, he hasn't spent his money wisely IMO and the overwhelming reason for me is he either hasn't or doesn't know how to adapt to our league. He could have Advocaat's squad and still set them up to play a system that doesn't suit their strengths. I hate the thought of sacking another manager but this last 12 months isn't progress.

Andy Barnett
>>159532506

I wouldn’t give Clement another transfer window. So far the two he’s had have been abject failures.

Andy Barnett
>>159530127

Correct Kev, he signed an injury prone player to compete with an injury prone player at left wing. Insanity.

Stewart Robertson
>>159530127

Spot on Spoon. Kemar Roofe was a brilliant striker WHEN HE WAS FIT. Danilo’s just the same in my book.

Jim Milne
>>159530127

Then after signing an injury prone player to compete with an injury prone player. He then refused to sell the original injury prone player, who then surprise surprise got injured. Am I right in thinking that Cortes costs more than Diomande, so Cortes is the player with the highest fee under Clement? A player we could have walked away from in the summer.

Spoon
>>159526448

I’m harsh on him, Raskin an guys like him 100%. I’m sick of watching guys sit in the stand and get better while being paid a fortune. I’m bored of hearing how it will be when X guy gets back fit at some point, it’s deluding ourselves. One guy doesn’t turn our team around and it sickens me to see us waste millions a year on guys who don’t contribute. The injury isn’t his fault, the guy is absolutely a decent footballer but I find it incredible the weight we put on guys like Danilo who hasn’t backed up the faith with end results as yet. That’s the key bud, YET, he might well be a real player but I want us to be ruthless with net non contributors, I want sentimentality banned and only what are doing for me right now to be the mantra. It’s not really about Danilo as a guy, seems a thoroughly decent chap but he has got a lot more from us than he has given and as it stands he doesn’t merit the zeal that some give him in my mind. It’s not about the liking him mate, it’s about an almost religious belief he is the answer when he hasn’t been due to availability and he is being judged on pure what ifs. If we are applying a standard, let’s do it equitably. Made the point a number of times the current squad has nobody I would be sad to see go, not one of them as they just aren’t that good compared to the guys I grew up watching. That’s not their fault but it’s not mine either, I just don’t that excited by individuals as I do by the team. I don’t like single points of failure so apologies if it seems aimed at Danilo, he’s indicative of the issue not the cause of it. I guess I’m trying to say I don’t subscribe to any one player in this team being fit changing our fortunes, we can’t be reliant on one guy and I’m not convinced anyone of them is even close to being that good. I would defend any striker lumped up alone and feel sorry for Igamane last few games too as he was flying until we managed to tactic him out of being effective recently. There was genuinely a spell yesterday I saw him do the Dessers hopeless run across the back line as he was the lone press and it was soul destroying. I would have Danilo in the team, Iwould have him plus one other I just don’t believe he has been worth the £6m on what he has produced and as a rule I would want guys giving us 75% upwards availability over their spell here, thats not aimed not just aimed at him but you can’t deny the hype (or weight of expectation) on him can be a bit skewed at times ? Not saying H&H promote that but many hang a lot on him. Just a counter view not deliberate thrawness! It might also be I am on an absolute downer with how the team has yet again managed to soil the sheets…..but self reflections over rated….

Heart and Hand
>>159526448

Oh not at all would i disagree with you on that. The longer someone is out of the side, they better they seem to get. It's based on hope rather than reality. Not unique to us, I've family members in NI who follow United who four weeks ago wanted Rashford sold but now want him back in as if he's Cantona 2! Danilo might do us a turn, but to be honest I think the structure of the team is wrong. Too wee, not athletic enough, neither strong enough to be defensive team nor fast enough to be good at attacking. It's an average squad and it delivers average performances.

Spoon
>>159526448

A clumsy made point from me, it’s not about Danilo specifically we have done it with Ridvan, Raskin, Matondo (remember him), and we do it in a similar way with Balogoun. For me it’s time to stop looking for silver bullets and focus more on binding together ‘lesser’ players into something that’s cohesive and resilient, better to be a group that can rotate than a team that needs its talisman. Although I’m not sure any of the current crop quite get that level of praise. The waste we go through in unavailable players, for whatever reason, is negligent and happens too often to be luck.

Doogz
>>159526448

Gio away from home domestically was chronic, I’ll never forget the feeling watching us implode to a gash St Johnstone team with Stevie May and Nicky Clarke giving us a torrid time, and Gio standing clueless on the touch line.

Spoon
>>159526448

Stuck up for him at the time and the revisionism won’t change it, yes it was poor by the end but never have we let a manger down so much as Gio. Can’t convince me he didn’t have the worst squad since coming back up, the least investment and the least amount of goodwill for a guy who was also….in a transitional season….sold out by a scheming board and let down by he successor. If he had been given the time and investment Clement had we might have been a few years further down the path. Totally different set of circumstances.

Alastair McGeoch

1. Butland: successful rangers teams have been built on goalkeepers who save us 10 pts a season and have big performances in big games. Butland is not that. Has lost a number of poor goals in every game against Celtic. 2. Squad: 90-95% dross. Maybe 1-2 Rangers players in it at best. 3. Clement: Not a Rangers manager. Over the 4 week “purple patch” he speaks of the progression/building for the future then breaks it up for St Mirren. How he can say he didn’t see that performance coming when we struggle at every away game this year indicates he’s crap. 4. Leadership group: Will not win trophies again until we have a new captain/leadership group in the squad. Right now the squad is led by a captain who has consistly lost the big games and then talks about needing to learn lessons that are never ever learnt. 5. January Transfer Window: wouldn’t give Clement/Kloppen anymore money as the signings of Silva, Propper, Bajrami etc aren’t right for Scottish football. In summary, we are in a right state, it’s a long way back and Clement is not the man to take us there.

Jamie Paterson

Its incredible anyone thinks this league is still winable

James McSween

Don’t get the hype with Sterling. He’s a poor mans Broadfoot. He’s got pace but lacks everything else

Heart and Hand
>>159526448

I think you are both right - Gio’s football wasn’t right for winning the Scottish League but he was badly hamstrung by Wilson.

Spoon
>>159526448

Think that’s the issue David, hard to judge a guy who had so few players fit, at times it was zero attackers and barely enough for a bench. Was it good enough at the end away no but purely based on feeling not science I believed Gio could have changed it given the right tools. Clement has far far more at his disposal and is arguably getting less. The coaching improvement of players just isn’t there, Gio was at least improving some younger talent. Seem to recall he was able to get some decent performances when he had players available, he just had a tiny squad who went in the huff pining for Beale. The other element I’m a bit bored of is the board stuff with Clement. Other than finance (and he got to spend decent money for us) what at boardroom really impacts him directly ? You could argue he has actually had empowering’hands off’ management of a type only Beale would have dreamed of. Yea he doesn’t have a tech director but he also is being allowed to set up as he likes, coach as he likes, drop or select as he likes. Many euro coaches just coach, I’m not sure day to day what having no chairman actually holds him back from. Time to bin all our excuses and to a man or woman in the club expect every one to be doing their own job to their top level. The SG mantra of everyone playing a part was effective and resonants, this new ‘ah but….’ culture isn’t for me, especially when others dealt with far far worse in terms of squad or investment. Players come and we can see they don’t fit, managers aren’t much different, even if they are decent and seem nice guys.

Stuart Mowat

Or perhaps it's two steps forward one step back. Maybe I'm alone in thinking that we played extremely well v Spurs, Kilmarnock, County and in the final (despite the shorter recovery period versus a fully fit team as well as poor refereeing). Real quality football, good goals and big performances throughout the team. We are competing against a very good Celtic, during a very significant rebuild. Until that run I agreed that I couldn't see a shape or solidity around the team. That seems to be coming now and I saw it in spades v very good teams, but we cannot realistically think we will not have drops in standard, especially with a young team and lack of depth. That's part and parcel of a rebuild.